View Full Version : Attention Ohioans!!!
Firstly, thank you for taking the time to view this thread. I will try to keep it brief and to the point.
For those of you who aren't aware, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle. Quoted from the Ohio Revised Code:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16
2923.16 Improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle.
(A) No person shall knowingly discharge a firearm while in or on a motor vehicle.
(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle
in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without
leaving the vehicle.
(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless
the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or
the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the
following ways:
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;
(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;
(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured
from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel
is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or
the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay
open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
A violation of division B is a 4th degree felony!
A violation of division C is 4th degree misdemeanor.
It is also very important to note the definition of "unloaded". If you are carrying loaded magazines for your firearm in your vehicle, regardless of where the magazines or the firearms are, that firearm is considered loaded and puts you in violation of divisions B and/or C.
(5) “Unloaded” means any of the following:
(a) No ammunition is in the firearm in question, and no ammunition is loaded into a
magazine or speed loader that may be used with the firearm in question and that is
located anywhere within the vehicle in question, without regard to where ammunition
otherwise is located within the vehicle in question. For the purposes of division
(K)(5)(a) of this section, ammunition held in stripper-clips or in en-bloc clips is
not considered ammunition that is loaded into a magazine or speed loader.
Now here is where it gets interesting. CCW holders are immune to divisions B and C with respect to handguns.
(5) Divisions (B) and (C) of this section do not apply to a person who transports or
possesses a handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession,
both of the following apply:
(a) The person transporting or possessing the handgun is carrying a valid license or
temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under
section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed
handgun that was issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered
into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code.
(b) The person transporting or possessing the handgun is not knowingly in a place
described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
Bottom Line - What this means for you.
If you are not a CCW holder, it is illegal to transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle.
If you are transporting loaded magazines that can be used with your firearm, that firearm is considered loaded, regardless of the location of the magazines and if the magazines are stored separate from the firearm.
These laws present a problem because, as many of you know, open carry is a legal activity in Ohio. Ohio has also enacted a "Castle Doctrine" that applies not only to one's home but to their vehicle as well. Because of the current law, non-CCW holders who obey they law are left completely undefended in their vehicles. I believe this needs to change. We have a right to self defense and the State has affirmed that right. It doesn't make sense that we should be allowed to open carry on foot, but not in a vehicle. We should be allowed to transport our loaded firearms in a safe and reasonable manner.
What I ask of you is this: Follow the link http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/ to find your State Senators and Representatives if you don't already know who they are. Call them, email them, send them letters. Make them aware of this legal fallacy and urge them to do something about it. I have emailed my District's Senator and Representative and I will continue to do so. The legislative process has gotten to the point where it seems individuals don't matter but we are still the voice of this State. Take ten minutes out of your day to make your voice heard.
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" Edmund Burke
Sincerely,
Eric D.
P.S. This thread can serve as a petition of sorts. The more replies and support for change, the better. Fell free to leave feedback and suggestions for me; either in this thread or via PM.
turdbocharged
10-21-11, 11:40
I was already aware of this, but thanks for the thread I'm sure many people aren't. I have told numerous individuals that I see at the range that they need to keep their rifle mags unloaded while transporting them in a motor vehicle. Usually people just say whatever and do it anyways. It's the whole you can bring a horse to water yet you can't force him to drink thing.
I do agree with you that the law should be changed, at least for the transportation of loaded rifle mags. However I don't ever see the need for me to "Open Carry" in a vehicle.
Regards,
Josh
landrvrnut22
10-22-11, 04:28
I applaud your efforts, however, there are certainly other aspects of concealed carry and firearms laws that need attention. Currently, Buckeye Firearms along with Ohioans for Concealed Carry is working to have the "notifcation requirement" removed from the books.
However, rather than change the laws. Encourage people to get their CHL (concealed handgun license). This helps strengthen the numbers in the state, and shows that firearm owners are really law abiding citizens. 2 new laws took effect, allowing resturant carry, and removing many of the car carry restrictions for holders of a CHL. This is just one step closer to getting the CHL law the way it was originally planned back in 2004.
I realize it is a hassle to have to load your magaiznes when you get to the range, and cuts into your range time. I typically load my ammo on stripper clips, and can have a loaded 30rd mag in less than 30 seconds without sore thumbs.
If you have not done so, please check out ofcc.org, and join the forums. Many of the people there helped pass the law in 2004, and many of the law revisions. I am sure they would appreciate your input.
And if you do not have it yet, please take the time to get your CHL. It is an easy process, and once you complete the training, and submit your application, it typically takes a week or two to get your license.
I am glad I am getting my OH CCW permit. I didn't know about the loaded magazines. This is too bad because I like to load my mags prior to heading to the range so I can spend more time shooting and less time loading. Looks like the CCW permit will take care of this. Thank you for doing the research.
No problem. I'm in the same boat as you; I don't want to get to the range and have to load however many hundreds of rounds I may shoot. My biggest issue is how OH has enacted "Castle Doctrine" that applies to home and vehicle, yet you need a CCW to legally carry in your car which is where I feel most vulnerable. At any rate, I plan on doing my CCW class in January with a friend who will be turning 21 at that time.
I am glad I am getting my OH CCW permit. I didn't know about the loaded magazines. This is too bad because I like to load my mags prior to heading to the range so I can spend more time shooting and less time loading. Looks like the CCW permit will take care of this. Thank you for doing the research.
Realize this may be an older thread, but I saw it in one of your signatures.
Hasn't this changed now with the new laws concerning being able to carry in bars and such?
I thought they also relaxed the laws in regards to vehicles.
The statutes I quoted are the laws as they are currently written. Laws were relaxed for CCW holders only. The issue is that 0RC 9.68 affirms our right to open carry and Castle Doctrine affirms our right to self defense in our homes and vehicles yet there are so many restrictions; all of which don't apply to CCW holders.
Realize this may be an older thread, but I saw it in one of your signatures.
Hasn't this changed now with the new laws concerning being able to carry in bars and such?
I thought they also relaxed the laws in regards to vehicles.
The statutes I quoted are the laws as they are currently written. Laws were relaxed for CCW holders only. The issue is that 0RC 9.68 affirms our right to open carry and Castle Doctrine affirms our right to self defense in our homes and vehicles yet there are so many restrictions; all of which don't apply to CCW holders.
OH okay. How ridiculous. I never understood how they justified a loaded mag as a weapon.
I have a permit but I still think the regs are stupid. Also the fact that it's a felony is backwards as heck. Sounds like kind of a racist law.
Heavy Metal
02-05-12, 15:31
Note to self: Get AR pistol so I can carry loaded mags thru Ohio.
Ned Christiansen
02-05-12, 19:22
Ohio legislation and the magazine fetish! I saw this in print a few years ago-- copied from Ohio statutes-- not sure if it's still in place, but it said essentially that if you had a magazine that held 30 or more than 30 rounds, not sure how it was worded, you were in possession of a machine gun. Hm.
I've tried it and no matter how big a mag I put in, dang thing still only fires semi-automatically!
Heavy Metal
02-05-12, 20:50
More than 30 rounds Ned.
Should have seen the cops face when she seen my "CC pistol". She comes up, l inform her l'm cc'ing. She asks where, l'm kinda just like, uggh you didnt notice the Draco AK 47 on the passenger seat?
She freaks out saying you cant cc a rifle blah, blah goes on a rant for a min, finally l'm allowed to inform her it a pistol. Took a little while but she finally came back and admitted l was right, she was so out of it from the gun issue she forgot about me speeding.
Ned Christiansen
02-06-12, 09:29
Here 'tis:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923
(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
So.... I guess it could be read that any centerfire semi-auto for which a magazine holding more than 31 rounds has ever been made, is a machine gun. It doesn't even say you have to have the magazine. It doesn't mention an exemption for police.
Way to write legislation, Ohio politicians!
Heavy Metal
02-06-12, 10:33
Well, I would argue no civilian semi-auto infantry rifle was designed to fire more than 30 rounds, anything bigger came after the rifle was designed. Hell the AR was designed for a 20 round mag (25 actually but lets not go into minuita.)
As for 'adapted to' in the statute, I read that as the magazine has to be loaded with more that 30 rounds locked into the weapon, not just in the proximity of the weapon.
IIRC there isn't any way to legally transport a loaded long gun ammo feeding device in one vehicle along with the rifle?
That is correct. The kicker being if the "loaded" long gun is accessible to the driver or any passenger without leaving the vehicle, the crime of "improperly handling firearms in a motor vehicle" is 4th degree felony. If the loaded long gun is only accessible by leaving the vehicle, its a 1st degree misdemeanor. My truck tool box is only accessible by leaving the vehicle, guess how I transport my shit...
IIRC there isn't any way to legally transport a loaded long gun ammo feeding devices in one vehicle along with the rifle?
That is my interpretation as well. In fact I would argue that you can own 30+ capacity mags legally but it becomes illegal as soon as you load one into a firearm.
As for 'adapted to' in the statute, I read that as the magazine has to be loaded with more that 30 rounds locked into the weapon, not just in the proximity of the weapon.
loganp0916
02-11-12, 19:50
One question out of curiosity:
I have an SUV. I keep my rifle in the very back when transporting it. So technically I could get to my rifle through the vehicle if I crawl through and over the seats, but I (and pretty much any sane person) would and do get out, walk around to the back, and open the lift gate to get the rifle. What would that be defined as?
And I guess that means no surefire 60 round mags...
Here is the relevant statute: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.16
(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the following ways:
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;
(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;
(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
Technically, transporting your rifle as you describe doesn't fit any of the above methods but as long as the gun isn't loaded (no loaded magazines) I personally wouldn't be concerned, YMMV.
If your rifle is in a hard case and transported as you describe, you are fine. Hell, you could fashion yourself some kind of "rack" to fit in the rear and then you would also be good to go. I am not aware of any case law that defines what is and is not a "rack".
One question out of curiosity:
I have an SUV. I keep my rifle in the very back when transporting it. So technically I could get to my rifle through the vehicle if I crawl through and over the seats, but I (and pretty much any sane person) would and do get out, walk around to the back, and open the lift gate to get the rifle. What would that be defined as?
It is my personal interpretation that ownership of said magazines, in and of itself, is legal. Only when they are loaded into a firearm do you create a machinegun. I wouldn't be taking them to any range but you could always save them for a rainy day ;)
And I guess that means no surefire 60 round mags...
So, a licensed Ohio CCW holder CAN have loaded handgun mags in an ammo can or range bag locked in the trunk to transport to the range? But not 30rd long gun / ar mags? I'm probably a bit confused with this, I had thought no mags could be loaded regardless of being licensed or not.
(B) No person shall knowingly transport or have a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle
in such a manner that the firearm is accessible to the operator or any passenger without
leaving the vehicle.
(C) No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless
the person may lawfully possess that firearm under applicable law of this state or
the United States, the firearm is unloaded, and the firearm is carried in one of the
following ways:
(1) In a closed package, box, or case;
(2) In a compartment that can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;
(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;
(4) If the firearm is at least twenty-four inches in overall length as measured
from the muzzle to the part of the stock furthest from the muzzle and if the barrel
is at least eighteen inches in length, either in plain sight with the action open or
the weapon stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay
open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.
(5) Divisions (B) and (C) of this section do not apply to a person who transports or
possesses a handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession,
both of the following apply:
(a) The person transporting or possessing the handgun is carrying a valid license or
temporary emergency license to carry a concealed handgun issued to the person under
section 2923.125 or 2923.1213 of the Revised Code or a license to carry a concealed
handgun that was issued by another state with which the attorney general has entered
into a reciprocity agreement under section 109.69 of the Revised Code.
(b) The person transporting or possessing the handgun is not knowingly in a place
described in division (B) of section 2923.126 of the Revised Code.
An OH CCW holder can carry a loaded handgun, loaded handgun mags, or any combination of the two anywhere in the vehicle he pleases. Your carry gun is loaded, no?
So, a licensed Ohio CCW holder CAN have loaded handgun mags in an ammo can or range bag locked in the trunk to transport to the range? But not 30rd long gun / ar mags? I'm probably a bit confused with this, I had thought no mags could be loaded regardless of being licensed or not.
Yes, it's loaded.. I just wanted to be clear on this. Handgun mags ok, rifle not.
HB 422 - The bill that would repeal the requirement to "promptly notify" also contains a provision that would repeal the current definition of "loaded" and replace it with the common sense definition.
HB 422 - The bill that would repeal the requirement to "promptly notify" also contains a provision that would repeal the current definition of "loaded" and replace it with the common sense definition.
So "loaded" will be a round in the chamber? So condition 3 will be unloaded?
I haven't read the bill so I don't know. The bill can also still be amended at this point.
So "loaded" will be a round in the chamber? So condition 3 will be unloaded?
There can be a million "what if's" that can be discussed. The easiest thing to prevent all of them is to simply drive in a manner that does not attract the attention of law enforcement, therefore preventing any contact with them.
I generally agree and I do drive in such a manner. However, in the event that I make a mistake or am involved in an accident not caused by me or am pulled over because of a light out that I didn't know about, I'd rather not be committing a felony when it happens. Murphy's Law is a real bitch.
Heavy Metal
08-04-12, 23:53
The way I read the code if you have a CCW and a Handgun, the section does not apply at all......even if you have other firearms with loaded magazines in the vehicle. It simply states if you meet coditions a and b, I.E. a CCW and a Handgun then it plainly does not apply.
I can where you're coming from there. I drew my conclusion from the wording in the exception "The person transporting or possessing the handgun". I don't know of any case law that backs either interpretation. I try to keep up with the Ohioans for Concealed Carry forums and the general consensus there is that, in Ohio, there is no legal way to transport a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle.
I can where you're coming from there. I drew my conclusion from the wording in the exception "The person transporting or possessing the handgun". I don't know of any case law that backs either interpretation. I try to keep up with the Ohioans for Concealed Carry forums and the general consensus there is that, in Ohio, there is no legal way to transport a loaded long gun in a motor vehicle.
unless you have a CCW. then it makes no difference. car or bike.
I applaud your efforts, however, there are certainly other aspects of concealed carry and firearms laws that need attention. Currently, Buckeye Firearms along with Ohioans for Concealed Carry is working to have the "notifcation requirement" removed from the books.
I'm an ex Ohio resident and now a Pittsburgh, PA resident. While it would be nice to get rid of the parts of the law the OP quotes. I would rather see the notification requirement addressed first.
As I have friends and family in Ohio and visit often I obtained a Utah permit as Ohio does not issue non-resident permits and Utah has reciprocity with OH.
It would be nice to bring my AR with mags loaded if I wanted to shoot back in Ohio but what I really want is the notification requirement removed.
unless you have a CCW. then it makes no difference. car or bike.
IIRC Ohio CCW only applies to handguns, and no other "dangerous ordinance".
Yes. I thought it was pretty clear at this point that this is my interpretation. Be careful though, our semi auto AR's, pistols, and nearly all other firearms for that matter are not dangerous ordnances as defined in the ORC; they are deadly weapons. Besides explosives, things like suppressors, SBRs, and SBSs are examples of dangerous ordnances.
IIRC Ohio CCW only applies to handguns, and no other "dangerous ordinance".
Sorry for the necro post. I just took the CCW class and am waiting to get into my new house before I go an apply for the licence, no sense in switching addresses again. As far as loaded rifle mags carried to the range for shooting, how does having a CCWL pertain to the loaded rifle magazines? CCWL pertains only to Handgun carry and obviously loaded handgun magazines. Would having loaded rifle magazines in a separate compartment in a car still be covered? What about a minivan that technically has no trunk? I would still in both cases have to get out of the vehicle to access the unloaded rifle and the loaded magazines.
In Ohio, there is no legal way to carry a loaded LONG gun. Having loaded magazines separate from the UNloaded long gun wouldn't matter because the "technically" unloaded long gun (no attached loaded magazines) would still be considered loaded because of the loaded magazines for the long gun. Am I reading this correctly? If so, I am confused as to how a CCWL permit for a HANDgun would permit me to carry loaded rifle magazines to the range/class/friends property for use with the rifle.
Thanks for an explanation.
Correct. You cannot have a loaded rifle magazine that fits in your rifle in, or on the same vehicle, irrespective of type of vehicle in Ohio.
You need two vehicles under their own power to go to a range/transport with loaded rifle magazines. One vehicle has the receiver, one vehicle has the loaded mags.
Stripper clips are not magazines, so they can be "loaded" (not the proper term).
Lobby Columbus so we can get the definition of "loaded" changed.
You have a license to carry a handgun. Not a rifle. Not a weapon. Not a knife. The loaded mag exception is for handguns only.
crowkiller
10-29-12, 13:30
What if a person CCW an AR pistol with extra mags in their vehicle and is also transporting their AR long gun?
IMHO & IANAL so you can do that but you will get an opportunity to have your criminal defense attorney explain your position to a judge with the cop that arrested you testifying for the state.
Your test case may be just what we need to change the O.R.C.
Well, If and only If HB 495 passes, many of the problems that are discussed here in this thread will be taken care of. I for one, hope that it passes. Hopefully know by the end of the week.
It passed today...Now the Gov. has to sign it..
It passed today...Now the Gov. has to sign it..
Great!
It passed today...Now the Gov. has to sign it..
Excellent, and its a done deal. Nice! Now I can carry my preloaded rifle mags to the range and not have to worry.
Governor Kasich signed it on 12/20 and the changes take effect March 22, 2013.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/8697
The bill makes the following changes:
Eliminates the "demonstrated competency" requirement for second and future CHL renewals, making CHL training similar to a hunting license.
Fixes the definition of a "loaded gun" to match the commonly accepted definition.
Allows law-abiding gun owners to have their firearms stored in their cars in the state-owned parking garages such as the one under the Statehouse.
****in' A!
Best ****ing news that I have heard in a while concerning gun rights. I am glad some common sense is still alive out there.
Fixes the definition of a "loaded gun" to match the commonly accepted definition.
So what does this mean for us? Loaded mags can be in the vehicle just not with the weapon (if individual has no CCW)?
I think what you want to hear is "loaded" no longer means there is a AR magazine in the trunk with 29 rounds inserted, and a AR15 in the back seat with no mag in it.
That will be legal when this law goes into effect on 03/27/2013. Just think, a loaded mag in the trunk, and an empty gun in the backseat will no longer be considered loaded. I know, shocking.
A loaded gun will be defined as a gun with a magazine that has ammo in it, and that magazine is inserted into a weapon that fires with that magazine. Again, shocking.
One point to note is that loaded magazines need to be in a separate container from the gun.
I ain't no lawyer, so read this on your own!
--------------
A firearm in a vehicle now will be considered unloaded if there is no ammunition in the firearm in question, and no magazine containing ammunition is inserted into the firearm in question, and 1 or 2 applies:
1 - There is no ammunition in a magazine that is in the vehicle in question and that may be used with the firearm in question, or
2 - Any magazine that contains ammunition and that may be used with the firearm in question is stored in a compartment within the vehicle in question that cannot be accessed without leaving the vehicle or is stored in a container that provides complete and separate enclosure. Such a container includes, but is not limited to, any of the following:
A package, box, or case with multiple compartments, as long as the loaded magazine and the firearm in question either are in separate compartments within the package, box, or case, or, if they are in the same compartment, the magazine is contained within a separate enclosure in that compartment that does not contain the firearm and that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents or the firearm is contained within a separate enclosure of that nature in that compartment that does not contain the magazine
A pocket or other enclosure on the person of the person in question that closes using a snap, button, buckle, zipper, hook and loop closing mechanism, or other fastener that must be opened to access the contents.
--------------
http://www.ohioccw.org/201301225065/what-changes-with-hb-495.html
Alpha Sierra
02-24-13, 14:59
Crap, how did I miss this? Great news!
The days of Ohio gun laws being an embarrassment are rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
I never bothered with a trunk rifle because of how screwed up this part of our laws were but this changes things dramatically for the better.
Ned Christiansen
02-24-13, 15:51
Good news for my Ohio friends! As Ohio is a state contiguous to Michigan, and as I sometimes travel in the Buckeye State, I like to keep track of what is and what ain’t OK in OH. MI and OH gun owners should consider each other as brothers….the war has been over for 177 years, after all (From Wiki: “The single military confrontation of the "war" [between Ohio and Michigan, 1836] ended with a report of shots being fired into the air, incurring no casualties.”
Has this been fixed though:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923
(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
I just checked it and it seems to still be in force. One word for my OH friends: NEXT.
Alpha Sierra
02-24-13, 16:00
(E) “Automatic firearm” means any firearm designed or specially adapted to fire a succession of cartridges with a single function of the trigger. “Automatic firearm” also means any semi-automatic firearm designed or specially adapted to fire more than thirty-one cartridges without reloading, other than a firearm chambering only .22 caliber short, long, or long-rifle cartridges.
I just checked it and it seems to still be in force. One word for my OH friends: NEXT.
Oh, yeah. There is still much full retard in the ORC. It will take some time to root it all out, but don't worry, we don't tire.
Do you guys happen to know which is the best pro gun rights association for the State of Ohio? Any link provided will be appreciated. Thanks.
This is great news. From what I understand, a rifle in the trunk, and a range bag/vest with closed pouches right next to it is perfectly legal. Correct?
Do you guys happen to know which is the best pro gun rights association for the State of Ohio? Any link provided will be appreciated. Thanks.
Same answer as "which is best .45 or 9mm", or "who makes the best AR"
Subjective between Buckeye Firearms Assoc, Ohioans for Concealed Carry, NRA, Second Amendment Foundation.
Put any of those terms in Alta Vista and you'll get the links.
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