View Full Version : antibiotics and pain meds
What do you do to acquire and store some relevant antibiotics and pain medication in the event that a seriously injured person cannot make it to medical care right away and will need to be treated by you?
Reagans Rascals
10-21-11, 06:07
Pain meds I'm not really sure about, other than those that are high in Lidocaine or Benzocaine for topical, shallow tissue pain relief. As far as like opioids its a tough call not being an EMT, as they can land you in some touble and may hurt the person being treated if you aren't really familiar with dosages.
As for antibiotics, it may sound funny however, I use fish ick medicine. It is easily purchased and it's just generic Amoxicilian and Ampicillin, which are your standard antibiotic regimens. You can purchase it in tablet form at any Walmart or Pet Store.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-21-11, 09:11
Canada or Mexico and smuggle it over the border it illegal as hell but its all I can think of. I dont know how long they keep for.
Forget it....
You'll need to get a doctor to write you a script or buy animal meds. I suppose you can also try Canada. I don't trust meds made in Mexico.
Pain meds I'm not really sure about, other than those that are high in Lidocaine or Benzocaine for topical, shallow tissue pain relief. As far as like opioids its a tough call not being an EMT, as they can land you in some touble and may hurt the person being treated if you aren't really familiar with dosages.
As for antibiotics, it may sound funny however, I use fish ick medicine. It is easily purchased and it's just generic Amoxicilian and Ampicillin, which are your standard antibiotic regimens. You can purchase it in tablet form at any Walmart or Pet Store.
Amazon has some good deals as well. I've never tried them but a buddy at work has supposedly used it twice for sinus deals. With them only costing $20 for a pretty good amount of antibiotics I figure I'd rather have them then not.
After you've completed medical school, all you need to do is apply for a DEA license.
Otherwise dispensing medications without understanding the pharmacokinetecis, dosing, and potential drug interactions is not only illegal, but stupid.
Just as a safety note:
Tetracycline antibiotics (tetracycline, doxycycline, minocycline ect) should not be used if they are expired or if they have been stored in hot conditions. They form nephrotoxic compounds as they degrade(hurts your kidneys).
I had a friend ask me about this once. His aunt had a huge bottle she bought in mexico years ago. He was going to take them, even though they expired 7 years previously...
After you've completed medical school, all you need to do is apply for a DEA license.
Otherwise dispensing medications without understanding the pharmacokinetecis, dosing, and potential drug interactions is not only illegal, but stupid.
I agree with this 100%.
However, for the sake of this thread, and I'm not offering legal or professional medical advice, if there is a prolonged societal breakdown and major services are interrupted, that's where I see having a little something on hand is better than not.
For those who choose to have stuff on hand, make sure you learn how to use it and had some prior experiences with it. Don't take anything that you have never taken in the past while under the supervision of a medical professional and don't offer it to anyone else. When SHTF is not the time to find out that you have a anaphylactic reaction to penicillin based antibiotics.
I cannot envision any circumstance where the casual and ignorant administration of an antibiotic would be worth the risk.
As for possession (let alone administration) of scheduled narcotic pain medication without a DEA license or valid prescription....:rolleyes: . That goes way beyond stupid.
If you're not a medical professional of some kind working under the stipulations of your license or certification, you have no business "treating people" with medication for anything.
I agree with this 100%.
However, for the sake of this thread, and I'm not offering legal or professional medical advice, if there is a prolonged societal breakdown and major services are interrupted, that's where I see having a little something on hand is better than not.
For those who choose to have stuff on hand, make sure you learn how to use it and had some prior experiences with it. Don't take anything that you have never taken in the past while under the supervision of a medical professional and don't offer it to anyone else. When SHTF is not the time to find out that you have a anaphylactic reaction to penicillin based antibiotics.
Basic and advanced knowledge of what you have in way of preps should be a must. I can't imagine stock piling something I have no idea how to use at a decent level to preserve life. Be it ammo, food, weapons or medicines.
I cannot envision any circumstance where the casual and ignorant administration of an antibiotic would be worth the risk.
As for possession (let alone administration) of scheduled narcotic pain medication without a DEA license or valid prescription....:rolleyes: . That goes way beyond stupid.
If you're not a medical professional of some kind working under the stipulations of your license or certification, you have no business "treating people" with medication for anything.
This isn't about treating anyone else, at least not how I interpreted it. This was about keeping a personal emergency supply.
There's nothing casual or ignorant about this. For everyday life, people should go to their doctors and get treated for their conditions and get the proper medication for the specific condition. I don't condone people self-medicating. What I thought we were talking about was some "smarter than your average bear" people having supplies on hand just in case.
It's fine if you don't agree.
After you've completed medical school, all you need to do is apply for a DEA license.
Otherwise dispensing medications without understanding the pharmacokinetecis, dosing, and potential drug interactions is not only illegal, but stupid.
This... after 3.5 years of medical school, I still have quite a bit to learn. You don't just take antibiotics because you have an infection. Certain drugs are good for certain bugs, and others don't cover as well, or at all. Without knowing what bacteria is causing the infection (assuming it is a bacterial infection) you are shooting in the dark. Also, not taking the right dosage for the right amount of time could kill off your natural flora while not effectively treating the pathologic bug, thus developing resistant/superbugs. This is not even addressing the caustic effects of antibiotics if taken incorrectly. Unfortunately it's not as simple as "if some is good, then more must be better." And sometimes the good is not necessarily the right good.
I totally agree with Hmac.
OP, nobody has business holding or dispensing meds without
direction from a licensed provider, that includes physicians. It is illegal in all 50 states.
Mods should lock this thread.
Iraq Ninja
10-22-11, 16:19
While I echo the concerns expressed already, antibiotics should be openly discussed, especially between medical professionals here.
Illegally acquiring them should not.
I carried the combat pill packs overseas and we bought antibiotics off the local market. Primary care was not a five minute ambulance trip away and we had medically trained folks, but no docs.
If you have ever seen someone loose an eye from an infection related to shrapnel, you know how important antibiotics are in austere environments.
I never had a problem bringing back non narcotic prescription drugs. I think the Federal law still allows you to bring in 50 dosage units for personal use. State laws can be a problem though. If someone is going to bring you up on charges for possessing antibiotics, you probably did something else worse and they are tacking on a charge.
I am not worried about getting busted by a cop who finds a 800mg Brufen tab in my ash tray ;)
While I echo the concerns expressed already, antibiotics should be openly discussed, especially between medical professionals here.
Illegally acquiring them should not.
I carried the combat pill packs overseas and we bought antibiotics off the local market. Primary care was not a five minute ambulance trip away and we had medically trained folks, but no docs.
If you have ever seen someone loose an eye from an infection related to shrapnel, you know how important antibiotics are in austere environments.
I never had a problem bringing back non narcotic prescription drugs. I think the Federal law still allows you to bring in 50 dosage units for personal use. State laws can be a problem though. If someone is going to bring you up on charges for possessing antibiotics, you probably did something else worse and they are tacking on a charge.
I am not worried about getting busted by a cop who finds a 800mg Brufen tab in my ash tray ;)
Thank you. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
In a survival situation, when medical care is unaccessable or unavailable, having some antibiotics can possibly save your life.
I am not talking about people running around and self administering drugs under normal conditions.
Thank you. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
In a survival situation, when medical care is unaccessable or unavailable, having some antibiotics can possibly save your life.
I am not talking about people running around and self administering drugs.
Yes, the military faces situations around the globe wherein the rules at home go out the window. I have no problem with the scenario Iraq Ninja describes, in fact I applaud it. The military has been dispensing morphine and antibiotics since the invention of sulfa powder. They study it and adapt it and generally address the problem in a totally rational way for a given set of circumstances.
The exigencies of war don't apply at home.
Yes, the military faces situations around the globe wherein the rules at home go out the window. I have no problem with the scenario Iraq Ninja describes, in fact I applaud it. The military has been dispensing morphine and antibiotics since the invention of sulfa powder. They study it and adapt it and generally address the problem in a totally rational way for a given set of circumstances.
The exigencies of war don't apply at home.
I don't think we have much of a disagreement except that I happen to think that in austere environments, whether at home or abroad, it would be wise to have antibiotics on hand.
I recognize the inherent dangers, but sometimes, doing nothing is not an option.
Just my 25 cents....
The exigencies of war don't apply at home.
They don't apply now. I assumed the question was focused on an extended SHTF scenario. In which the common support structure of hospitals, doctors and the corner drug store were not available. So in preparation for that scenario what is the best way of legally obtaining antibiotics and pain killers. If a legal way exists. I'd guess any advice or documents on how best to store and dispense the medicine would also be welcome.
Reagans Rascals
10-22-11, 18:05
Am I mistaken in thinking that the more people have the ability and means to provide for themselves, both medically and physically, the better off they are, esp. in extended austere situations such as Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent flooding.
Hurricane comes in, knocks out power and downs power lines in the roads and scatters debris, leaving no passable route to the local hospital if need be. Then, just casually, you cut your foot on something. No big deal. Low level flooding begins. Storm drains, septic tanks, and sewage pipes begin mixing with the rising water. Lower floor of your home begins to take on water, even just 6-7 inches.
Well that not so serious cut on your foot, is now a breeding ground for severe bacterial infections. Septicemia, E. Coli, Staph, a number of awful, highly life threatening infections if left untreated.
I believe the death rate for Septicemia is around 50%... so I think its advisable to have some type of antibiotic around to ward off infections before it gets to that stage...even if its just neosporin
juliomorris
10-22-11, 20:30
You can buy fish and bird antibiotics from Lambert vet supply online. It is the same as sold for humans and yes I checked with a vet and a pharmacist. They have tetracycline and doxycycline. But don't just take it because you have a cold or the flue.
Are we talking topical or internal? I use a neosporine cream with a pain control for all my minor scrapes and such.
I have MRSA and am diabetic, so I want to stay on top of my problems, but I don't want to overuse any antibiotics. I spent 11 days in the hospital in June with sepsis and pneumonia. The amount of antibiotics I got thru the iv was incredible. They wouldn't release me until they understood why I had the runs. I had eocynaphils(?) and they thought they were from some infectious source. It turned out my system didn't like the antibiotics and as soon as they stopped so did the trots.
I am trying to not use any internal antibiotics so I don't have the same symptoms I had after the bout sepsis.
Without offering advice on whether self prescription is a good idea or not... try Tractor Supply over with the equine stuff.
John
Am I mistaken in thinking that the more people have the ability and means to provide for themselves, both medically and physically, the better off they are, esp. in extended austere situations such as Hurricane Katrina and the subsequent flooding.
Hurricane comes in, knocks out power and downs power lines in the roads and scatters debris, leaving no passable route to the local hospital if need be. Then, just casually, you cut your foot on something. No big deal. Low level flooding begins. Storm drains, septic tanks, and sewage pipes begin mixing with the rising water. Lower floor of your home begins to take on water, even just 6-7 inches.
Well that not so serious cut on your foot, is now a breeding ground for severe bacterial infections. Septicemia, E. Coli, Staph, a number of awful, highly life threatening infections if left untreated.
I believe the death rate for Septicemia is around 50%... so I think its advisable to have some type of antibiotic around to ward off infections before it gets to that stage...even if its just neosporin
Really? Do you know how to diagnose septicemia? What bugs are you going to be treating? Are you going to administer your fish antibiotics prophylactically, risking resistance, or are you going to wait for evidence of an actual infection? What are the signs of an actual infection? Are you going to be covering both gram negative and gram positive bacteria? How are you going to deal with anaerobes? What about resistant streptococcus species? How are you going to cover resistant strains? I mean, MRSA is community-based now. C'mon...you have to know this stuff, because, you know, the shit has hit the fan and it's the end of the world as we know it, and Google is down. What are you going to do about....wait...never mind, here comes the USCG rescue chopper.
:) The Mad Max movies really provide fertile ground for active imaginations.
Without offering advice on whether self prescription is a good idea or not... try Tractor Supply over with the equine stuff.
John
Sure, because ungulate gastrointestinal physiology (absorption) and medication dosing is about the same as for humans. Well, anyway the medications have the same names...
i started my storage when i was getting yearly sinus infections. one year i had to wait a couple weeks to see a doctor due to insurace BS and while waiting, i had someone give me a Z-pack that they had stored. when i got to see my doctor, he gave me the same thing so i stored one for the next year.
since this time, i have ended up with a prep friendly doctor who will write prescriptions for travelers who go places that the medical care isnt up to our standards. in my small group of friends, there are a couple RNs, a doctor, and a EMT so i have plenty of experience on hand to properly diagnose and give dosing instructions. i have also done lots of research on my own and have printed the drug info out for my personal records. i think of this as just one more skill to know as far as being self sufficient.
Sure, because ungulate gastrointestinal physiology (absorption) and medication dosing is about the same as for humans. Well, anyway the medications have the same names...
As I said, I'm not interested in offering medical advice. Some people will take the position that if they are in a bind and they've got a raging infection they'll take their chances on what meds they could access, regardless of the source or intended use and hope it will help deal with whatever is killing them, figuring they have little to lose. Other might be happier with "Gee, I'm not a doctor. Nothing I can do but lay here and wait to die...". Darwinism works for me, either way. I have the advantage of a significant other who's a medical professional (experienced ER RN) and a brother who's a vet. Both of them like me enough to keep me alive (I think). The OP didn't ask for medical advice. He asked for a source. Beyond that I'll assume that he'll get appropriate advice before proceeding.
John
Reagans Rascals
10-23-11, 19:24
Really? Do you know how to diagnose septicemia? What bugs are you going to be treating? Are you going to administer your fish antibiotics prophylactically, risking resistance, or are you going to wait for evidence of an actual infection? What are the signs of an actual infection? Are you going to be covering both gram negative and gram positive bacteria? How are you going to deal with anaerobes? What about resistant streptococcus species? How are you going to cover resistant strains? I mean, MRSA is community-based now. C'mon...you have to know this stuff, because, you know, the shit has hit the fan and it's the end of the world as we know it, and Google is down. What are you going to do about....wait...never mind, here comes the USCG rescue chopper.
:) The Mad Max movies really provide fertile ground for active imaginations.
key phrase in my statement.. "so I think its advisable to have some type of antibiotic around to ward off infections before it gets to that stage...even if its just neosporin"... as in... protect against infection before it reaches septicemia.
key phrase in my statement.. "so I think its advisable to have some type of antibiotic around to ward off infections before it gets to that stage...even if its just neosporin"... as in... protect against infection before it reaches septicemia.
You missed the point. I'm talking about prophylaxis, same as you. What are you going to use to keep your foot from getting infected from your backed up sewer? What type of bug did you likely get in that foot wound? What are you treating? "Some type of antibiotic" just doesn't cut it in this day and age of rampant bacterial resistance. Does neosporin, or any such topical nostrum have any effectiveness in terms of preventing a deep space infection, or preventing a wound infection from becoming a source of sepsis? (the answer is "no"). Does tetracycline work well as prophylaxis?
These are things you should know as you go down to Tractor Supply to stock up for the SHTF scenario.
Reagans Rascals
10-23-11, 20:11
You missed the point. I'm talking about prophylaxis, same as you. What are you going to use to keep your foot from getting infected from your backed up sewer? What type of bug did you likely get in that foot wound? What are you treating? "Some type of antibiotic" just doesn't cut it in this day and age of rampant bacterial resistance. Does neosporin, or any such topical nostrum have any effectiveness in terms of preventing a deep space infection, or preventing a wound infection from becoming a source of sepsis? (the answer is "no"). Does tetracycline work well as prophylaxis?
These are things you should know as you go down to Tractor Supply to stock up for the SHTF scenario.
I don't recall stating I was going to Tractor Supply for anything.
I believe a plastic walmart bag with a rubber band, some neosporin and a band aid will work wonders in keeping the infections out..
btw... you may have a sense of superiority due to your vast medical knowledge however there is a way to convey such knowledge without intentionally elevating yourself while publicly assailing an individual for the paucity of their medical education... I believe they call that bedside manner
In terms of storing pain meds, a couple of bottles of the NSAID of your choice and acetaminophen is reasonable and legal. Storing a controlled substance that was not prescribed to you is a big no-no.
In terms of antibiotics, a stash over the counter topical antibiotics is also perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, storing systemic antibiotics is dangerous. First, the vast majority of antibiotics that are prescribed (inappropriatly) in America are for respiratory infections and have not activity against skin flora that infect most wounds in a SHTF situation. Second, you run the risk of partial treatment of diseases when you stop medications prematurely. There is also a ton of misinformation about particular antibiotics that is largely due to the internet and overprescribing behavior by physicians as a means of patient satisfaction. Take azithromycin (Z-pack) as an example of a drug that has been so frequently and inappropriately prescribed for conditions such as "sinusitis" that it is loosing its effectiveness for the conditions for which it was designed. A layperson who self-prescribes is far more likely to suffer a side-effect than effectively treat a condition (i.e. 20% of people taking azithromycin for uncomplicated sinusitis will suffer a GI side-effect vs. 5% who get better only 2 days faster than those not taking an antibiotic).
In terms of storing pain meds, a couple of bottles of the NSAID of your choice and acetaminophen is reasonable and legal. Storing a controlled substance that was not prescribed to you is a big no-no.
In terms of antibiotics, a stash over the counter topical antibiotics is also perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, storing systemic antibiotics is dangerous. First, the vast majority of antibiotics that are prescribed (inappropriatly) in America are for respiratory infections and have not activity against skin flora that infect most wounds in a SHTF situation. Second, you run the risk of partial treatment of diseases when you stop medications prematurely. There is also a ton of misinformation about particular antibiotics that is largely due to the internet and overprescribing behavior by physicians as a means of patient satisfaction.
The take home message I'm getting here is that Even Medical Doctors Misuse Antibiotics! :p
Take azithromycin (Z-pack) as an example of a drug that has been so frequently and inappropriately prescribed for conditions such as "sinusitis" that it is loosing its effectiveness for the conditions for which it was designed. A layperson who self-prescribes is far more likely to suffer a side-effect than effectively treat a condition (i.e. 20% of people taking azithromycin for uncomplicated sinusitis will suffer a GI side-effect vs. 5% who get better only 2 days faster than those not taking an antibiotic).
In the eye related field there has been a huge increase in the use of Azasite and polysporin or erythromycin ung for the treatment of blepharitis and meibomian gland dysfunction when back in the day the patient would have been instructed to clean their eyelids instead.
What do you do to acquire and store some relevant antibiotics and pain medication in the event that a seriously injured person cannot make it to medical care right away and will need to be treated by you?
-I keep 2% CHG on hand, as well as OTC stuff like neosporin, etc. If that won't fix it, you have problems so severe that without medical help it's a lost cause, anyway. You aren't going to start an IV and hang Merrem or Zosyn in your basement. Tygacil is ridiculously expensive, and if it has gotten to that point, chances are without professional care such as the monitoring of renal function, etc. it's not going to work out well. You probably also aren't going to start a levophed drip, either. If it's that bad, try to stop the bleeding, elevate the feet when they start to black out, utter soothing words, and try to get some real help ASAP.
-Pain meds? I don't take them when they are prescribed to me and I don't throw them away, either. I guess I have that, but pills take time to work. Morphine, Hydromorphone, etc....don't keep that on hand, lol.
-Acetaminophen and aspirin can cause so many problems misused.
QuietShootr
11-03-11, 07:05
You can buy fish and bird antibiotics from Lambert vet supply online. It is the same as sold for humans and yes I checked with a vet and a pharmacist. They have tetracycline and doxycycline. But don't just take it because you have a cold or the flue.
Aye, but do you know which version of tetracycline is toxic to humans - and sometimes it's found in aquarium meds?
IANAD. But I can culture, stain, view, and classify bacteria from a swab using equipment I have on hand- if you can't do that, and then know what drug is appropriate to treat what you found, you probably don't have any business screwing around with unconventional drug sources. Having professional knowledge of PK/PD would be good too, and if you don't know what THAT means, you sure don't have any business experimenting with weird antibiotics.
Legality aside, of course.
Aye, but do you know which version of tetracycline is toxic to humans - and sometimes it's found in aquarium meds?
IANAD. But I can culture, stain, view, and classify bacteria from a swab using equipment I have on hand- if you can't do that, and then know what drug is appropriate to treat what you found, you probably don't have any business screwing around with unconventional drug sources. Having professional knowledge of PK/PD would be good too, and if you don't know what THAT means, you sure don't have any business experimenting with weird antibiotics.
Legality aside, of course.
You can ID the bacteria, but can you perform C&S tests on it? That is the most important part of determining what to give.
Further, can you perform a BMP to determine renal function?
There is a lot more than just determining the shape of the bacteria.
QuietShootr
11-03-11, 08:55
You can ID the bacteria, but can you perform C&S tests on it? That is the most important part of determining what to give.
Further, can you perform a BMP to determine renal function?
There is a lot more than just determining the shape of the bacteria.
Yup. I have 6 different antibiotic discs for susceptibility testing here at home, and in a shtf situation, I could draw my blood and do a chem-20 on it with equipment I have access to easily. If I needed to I could even move the equipment to a more secure location.
Yup. I have 6 different antibiotic discs for susceptibility testing here at home, and in a shtf situation, I could draw my blood and do a chem-20 on it with equipment I have access to easily. If I needed to I could even move the equipment to a more secure location.
Well...you're rare.
QuietShootr
11-03-11, 09:39
Well...you're rare.
I know. Which is why I was saying, don't screw around unless you really know what you're doing.
I know. Which is why I was saying, don't screw around unless you really know what you're doing.
Which I agree 100% with.
I would like to further add, don't screw around unless you know what you don't know.
If you have a good relationship with your doctor tell him what you need and for what and he might write a couple of scripts.
pain meds are pain meds, get some good stuff and they work. As far as antibiotic, I had some cypro that I always kept handy overseas. it clears up just about anything if taken for a week.
If you have a good relationship with your doctor tell him what you need and for what and he might write a couple of scripts.
pain meds are pain meds, get some good stuff and they work. As far as antibiotic, I had some cypro that I always kept handy overseas. it clears up just about anything if taken for a week.
I highly doubt your MD is going to write a script for Lortab 10 for your bug-out-bag. Many of them paid nearly 1/2 a mil for that license, and they aren't going to piss it away just so you can have a bottle of pain-killers at home so you don't have to make an office visit.
As to meds being meds, some pain meds work for some types of pain on some people, and some don't. Pain meds are not just pain meds.
Cipro is a great antibiotic, but worthless (even harmful) if given for a bug it isn't going to kill. Without a C&S, or knowledge of the bacterium causing the problem, it's a dangerous crap-shoot.
Self-medication without a working understanding of all of the systems and chemicals involved is almost never good.
I highly doubt your MD is going to write a script for Lortab 10 for your bug-out-bag. Many of them paid nearly 1/2 a mil for that license, and they aren't going to piss it away just so you can have a bottle of pain-killers at home so you don't have to make an office visit.
As to meds being meds, some pain meds work for some types of pain on some people, and some don't. Pain meds are not just pain meds.
Cipro is a great antibiotic, but worthless (even harmful) if given for a bug it isn't going to kill. Without a C&S, or knowledge of the bacterium causing the problem, it's a dangerous crap-shoot.
Self-medication without a working understanding of all of the systems and chemicals involved is almost never good.
I would normally agree with all this, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of getting things analyzed, so you have to take what is most common for the mission you think you'll be in.
As for what an MD will do, well let's say i'm in the small % of people. It's all based on relationship and trust.
QuietShootr
11-04-11, 18:54
I would normally agree with all this, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of getting things analyzed, so you have to take what is most common for the mission you think you'll be in.
As for what an MD will do, well let's say i'm in the small % of people. It's all based on relationship and trust.
This.
One of the benefits of not being a turd.
I would normally agree with all this, but sometimes you don't have the luxury of getting things analyzed, so you have to take what is most common for the mission you think you'll be in.
As for what an MD will do, well let's say i'm in the small % of people. It's all based on relationship and trust.
Well, look at it like this. Would you let your md keep your full auto class 3 weapon just in case? If so, then I agree he might give you narcotics.
As to antibiotics, I disagree. I have seen time and time again the damage they can do when over or inacurrately given. Broad spectrum are the worst. They will wipe out everything but a resistant strain and then it is free to colonize, some may wipe out renal function, etc. Etc. If used past their expiration date, exposed to light, or just as a side effect. Further, with drugs like vanc, you cannot likely do a peak or trough, and thus destroy organs or be ineffective, etc.
Neosporin is one thing, zyvox, etc is quite another.
...As far as antibiotic, I had some cypro that I always kept handy overseas. it clears up just about anything if taken for a week.
People reading this thread should disregard these sentences. This person does not even know how to spell the drug's name - much less how to appropriately use it. The second sentence is especially far from the truth.
People reading this thread should disregard these sentences. This person does not even know how to spell the drug's name - much less how to appropriately use it. The second sentence is especially far from the truth.
Who the hell are you to tell me what I do have, don't have, what my doctor does for me and what he doesn't do for me. Could you make a bigger ASSumption!!! Or is misspelling the word your only intelligent argument, dipshit???? The fact doesn't change. Would you like me ta fax you a copy of the script or a picture of the bottles.
Do everyone a favor, stop talking out of your sphincter or trying to make an intelligent point and allow the conversation to continue. Typical internet jerkoff!!!!!!
Who the hell are you to tell me what I do have, don't have, what my doctor does for me and what he doesn't do for me.
Secondly, if I miss spelled the word, excuse me dipshit!!!!! the fact doesn't change. Would you like me ta fax you a copy of the scripts or a picture of the bottles.
Do everyone a favor and crawl back in the hole you just came out off and allow the conversation to continue. Typical internet jerkoff!!!!!!
People who dose themselves with broad-spectrum antibiotics like Cipro aren't doing themselves (or the community) any favors. Cipro takes out many bugs that became immune to other antibiotics because of just such behavior. Please don't contribute to ruining it.
ETA: Now, if it really does hit the fan, things would be different. You don't HAVE a better alternative. Take it and pray. However, in any other scenario where a hospital is readily available, self-treating with broad-spectrum antibiotics is, at best, irresponsible.
QuietShootr
11-16-11, 10:17
People who dose themselves with broad-spectrum antibiotics like Cipro aren't doing themselves (or the community) any favors. Cipro takes out many bugs that became immune to other antibiotics because of just such behavior. Please don't contribute to ruining it.
ETA: Now, if it really does hit the fan, things would be different. You don't HAVE a better alternative. Take it and pray. However, in any other scenario where a hospital is readily available, self-treating with broad-spectrum antibiotics is, at best, irresponsible.
Really, this is true. Indiscriminate use of antibiotics is really a terrible thing. Wait till we get a really serious staph that doesn't respond to anything we have - then people will be dying in horrible biblical styles we've not seen in fifty years.
ETA: Now, if it really does hit the fan, things would be different. You don't HAVE a better alternative. Take it and pray. However, in any other scenario where a hospital is readily available, self-treating with broad-spectrum antibiotics is, at best, irresponsible.
I completely agree with you here, and I'm not advocating the use of any medication when professional help is available. Let's not confuse the issue here.
My suggestion was purely as a last resort situation, when out on mission or running around the world and immediate and appropriate medical attention is not available.
R.
I completely agree with you here, and I'm not advocating the use of any medication when professional help is available. Let's not confuse the issue here.
My suggestion was purely as a last resort situation, when out on mission or running around the world and immediate and appropriate medical attention is not available.
R.
I understand what you are saying, but I see people every day who have resistant strains of some bug or another and we end up playing the "will we kill their kidneys or the bug first?" game. Feel like I need to say my piece on it whether anyone wants to listen, or not. People tend to lose sight of "This REALLY IS for when TSHTF!".
I have an X gf who thought Z-packs were candy. She ended up in the hospital with a resistant strain of E-Coli and they played the otto/nephro-toxic tightrope game for 2 weeks. Did the Z-packs contribute? I don't know. Sure wasn't a great idea. Well could have wiped out natural flora that may have prevented a problem from occurring in the first place. That is another thing many people fail to understand. The good bugs compete in the environment (your body) for survival resources, many times saving you from/lessening the impact of infection by simple resource-denial regarding the bad bugs. You hit the environment (your body) with a nuke, and if that bug is a cockroach, it's going to have a field day when you clear out all your normal flora.
We do everything we can to ENCOURAGE normal flora, including pro-biotic Ensure, FloraQ, etc. etc.
If you want to self-dose with antibiotics if TSHTF, stock up on some pro-biotics as well. If you're going to do it, do it right.
PS. I won't talk smack about your spelling if you don't about mine. ;)
PS. I won't talk smack about your spelling if you don't about mine. ;)
LOL!!! the spelling I can handle, the assumptions, not so much!!!! LOLOL
You got a good point though. From my education on this (the news), a big problem regarding antibiotics are the doctors themselves. They are way to easy on prescribing them. Go in for a cold and bam!!!! you get antibiotics, everything is cured with antibiotics. Granted I'm not a doctor but could it be possible that maybe more testing should be done before they are prescribed? I wont assume, so maybe someone in that industry can chime in.
LOL!!! the spelling I can handle, the assumptions, not so much!!!! LOLOL
You got a good point though. From my education on this (the news), a big problem regarding antibiotics are the doctors themselves. They are way to easy on prescribing them. Go in for a cold and bam!!!! you get antibiotics, everything is cured with antibiotics. Granted I'm not a doctor but could it be possible that maybe more testing should be done before they are prescribed? I wont assume, so maybe someone in that industry can chime in.
The problem is MD's and patients.
Walk-in patients want something for their co-pay. MD's need patients. If the patient is not given an antibiotic, the MD has "failed", and the patient feels as though the visit was for naught, and will find another MD.
Just my perception of things. People want a pill/shot to fix everything. I am no different, but I stick with antihistamines for itching (got TORN UP! by some chiggers once, Vistaril saved the day!), steroids for inflammation (chiggers again), and anything but Lortab for pain. I never ask for pain meds though, most MD's prescribe them quite freely just in the ANTICIPATION that you will ask. Normally I just ask for something to help me deal with the symptoms of whatever bug I have and allow my immune system to deal with it. When I had strep was the most recent (and only) exception to this in the last 5 years, except when my Dad caught swine flu and the MD all but made me take Tamiflu, which make me feel like crap for a week. :rolleyes:
Kindof like when you ask for a glass of water and a lemon and the waiter rolls their eyes at you and brings you a whole bowl of lemons because they figure you want to be a cheap bastard and make your own lemonade and deplete the sweet-and-low caddy on your table. :suicide2:
The problem is MD's and patients.
Walk-in patients want something for their co-pay. MD's need patients. If the patient is not given an antibiotic, the MD has "failed", and the patient feels as though the visit was for naught, and will find another MD.
Just my perception of things. People want a pill/shot to fix everything. I am no different, but I stick with antihistamines for itching (got TORN UP! by some chiggers once, Vistaril saved the day!), steroids for inflammation (chiggers again), and anything but Lortab for pain. I never ask for pain meds though, most MD's prescribe them quite freely just in the ANTICIPATION that you will ask. Normally I just ask for something to help me deal with the symptoms of whatever bug I have and allow my immune system to deal with it. When I had strep was the most recent (and only) exception to this in the last 5 years, except when my Dad caught swine flu and the MD all but made me take Tamiflu, which make me feel like crap for a week. :rolleyes:
Kindof like when you ask for a glass of water and a lemon and the waiter rolls their eyes at you and brings you a whole bowl of lemons because they figure you want to be a cheap bastard and make your own lemonade and deplete the sweet-and-low caddy on your table. :suicide2:
I see your point. I also know how the world turns and it won't make a difference when doctors NEED patients, but they should know better, they should educate the patient. Just because I want something shouldn't be reason enough for me to get it. But again, not the way the world turns. Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
R
I see your point. I also know how the world turns and it won't make a difference when doctors NEED patients, but they should know better, they should educate the patient. Just because I want something shouldn't be reason enough for me to get it. But again, not the way the world turns. Damn if you do, damn if you don't.
R
People don't care. I see the same patients come in over and over and over for uncontrolled diabetes in DKA, etc. etc. We tell them the same things again and again. Doesn't matter.
People don't care. I see the same patients come in over and over and over for uncontrolled diabetes in DKA, etc. etc. We tell them the same things again and again. Doesn't matter.
I can only imagine!!!!!
I can only imagine!!!!!
Very frustrating. Just the other week I had a 500+ pound patient argue with me over how much ice-cream they wanted that night. They wanted 4 containers, I wanted to give them one, we settled on 2. The argument was pointless. I just didn't feel like bringing him 4 containers of it all at once. It seemed...excessive.
I guess my point is that so often it feels like all you are doing is making a slow suicide even slower, rather than fixing a condition and re-rehabilitating a person. I can easily see why MD's just say "the hell with it" and give people what they want as long as it's legally defensible.
I have seen a patient's family member bring in fried pies before the patient was even able to walk on their own...after a CABG.
Who the hell are you to tell me what I do have, don't have, what my doctor does for me and what he doesn't do for me. Could you make a bigger ASSumption!!! Or is misspelling the word your only intelligent argument, dipshit???? The fact doesn't change. Would you like me ta fax you a copy of the script or a picture of the bottles.
Do everyone a favor, stop talking out of your sphincter or trying to make an intelligent point and allow the conversation to continue. Typical internet jerkoff!!!!!!
Who the hell am I?
I'm the "dipshit" who actually has a medical degree and a license to practice medicine. That means that I've EARNED the right to warn people about false claims on the internet by those who post inaccurate statements such as "it (Cipro) clears up just about anything if taken for a week."
Who the hell am I?
I'm the "dipshit" who actually has a medical degree and a license to practice medicine. That means that I've EARNED the right to warn people about false claims on the internet by those who post inaccurate statements such as "it (Cipro) clears up just about anything if taken for a week."
Well then make THAT argument, not the dumb shit assumption you made or pointing out spelling errors. As an MD I would think you can make a more intelligent contribution, or maybe not. See, I don't assume!!!!
R.
Very frustrating. Just the other week I had a 500+ pound patient argue with me over how much ice-cream they wanted that night. They wanted 4 containers, I wanted to give them one, we settled on 2. The argument was pointless. I just didn't feel like bringing him 4 containers of it all at once. It seemed...excessive.
I guess my point is that so often it feels like all you are doing is making a slow suicide even slower, rather than fixing a condition and re-rehabilitating a person. I can easily see why MD's just say "the hell with it" and give people what they want as long as it's legally defensible.
I have seen a patient's family member bring in fried pies before the patient was even able to walk on their own...after a CABG.
That's kind of funny in it's own sad way!!! LOL
eternal24k
11-16-11, 14:48
I work in a field involving anthrax preparedness. One of our issues is the dispensing aspect, especially in a situation where you have around 96 hours to be able to make a difference (with an optimistic 48 hours to determine whether there has been exposure and 48 to dispense). The biggest issue we have is that we cannot pre-deploy simply because Americans over utilize antibiotics like it was a cure-all. I honestly would love if we could give every house a gov issued SHTF box where you would receive notice to use the applicable item, but studies have shown that people will just pop the antibiotics at the first sign of a cold.
This issue is why it is hard to get antibiotics, and as mentioned, If you decide to pursue it, also pursue the necessary information to effectively utilize it so that you are not bombing your system everytime you do not feel 100%
I work in a field involving anthrax preparedness. One of our issues is the dispensing aspect, especially in a situation where you have around 96 hours to be able to make a difference (with an optimistic 48 hours to determine whether there has been exposure and 48 to dispense). The biggest issue we have is that we cannot pre-deploy simply because Americans over utilize antibiotics like it was a cure-all. I honestly would love if we could give every house a gov issued SHTF box where you would receive notice to use the applicable item, but studies have shown that people will just pop the antibiotics at the first sign of a cold.
This issue is why it is hard to get antibiotics, and as mentioned, If you decide to pursue it, also pursue the necessary information to effectively utilize it so that you are not bombing your system everytime you do not feel 100%
You are correct on each point. Cipro became such a hot item after the 2001 Anthrax attacks that we saw people come to the ED specifically asking for it. Many people had the plan of storing it for the SHTF scenario that is discussed throughout this thread. I personally saw several patients who started Cipro from their stash for cutaneous abscess that were actually MRSA and not cutaneous Anthrax - needless to say it did not work.
Another problem with this thinking is that Cipro alone is not going to be useful for weaponized anthrax or even non-weaponized pulmonary anthrax. None of the people who died in 2001 would have been saved by the early adminstration of oral Cipro alone. The honest truth is that laypeople are likely to misdiagnose themselves and start antibiotics inappropriately (taking on all the risk of side-effects with no chance of benefit), or take insufficient therapy that will not improve mortality.
Don't really want to get into this discussion a whole lot, but ciprofloxacin and all quinolones would be an absolutely last choice of mine if I were to face any survivalist situation such as getting stranded alone in wilderness. I honestly don't care if I develop a resistant bug, it is not going to happen in 3 days so hopefully I can get out by then, but it is hard to survive if your Achilles is ruptured..
http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/news/20080708/fda-warning-cipro-may-rupture-tendons
Yes, all ABx have side effects, all side effects are probabilistic etc. etc., but if you're contemplating using s..., then at least look at the possible spectrum of side effects you might be dealing with in case you ended up using s...; the moral if you don't know s..., you may end up right in the middle of it.
This was my free medical advice of the day.
Don't really want to get into this discussion a whole lot, but ciprofloxacin and all quinolones would be an absolutely last choice of mine if I were to face any survivalist situation such as getting stranded alone in wilderness. I honestly don't care if I develop a resistant bug, it is not going to happen in 3 days so hopefully I can get out by then, but it is hard to survive if your Achilles is ruptured..
http://www.webmd.com/osteoarthritis/news/20080708/fda-warning-cipro-may-rupture-tendons
Yes, all ABx have side effects, all side effects are probabilistic etc. etc., but if you're contemplating using s..., then at least look at the possible spectrum of side effects you might be dealing with in case you ended up using s...; the moral if you don't know s..., you may end up right in the middle of it.
This was my free medical advice of the day.
The 1 in 100K cases this occurs in would explain why I have never seen it even though I give a ton of Cipro to patients.
I agree with you though, 3 days out? Don't take anything, just get to safety and deal with it then.
The 1 in 100K cases this occurs in would explain why I have never seen it even though I give a ton of Cipro to patients.
I agree with you though, 3 days out? Don't take anything, just get to safety and deal with it then.
I haven't seen it in person either, but my colleagues have, it is FDA black-boxed, so must be happening to somebody often enough to be noticed. Question is whether one wants to have even 1/100,000 chance of a tendon rupture in a survival situation.
While I mentioned that as a specific strike (IMO) against quinolones, this serves a purpose of showing how people get into stuff they have no clue about and not aware of consequences. I can present multiple examples why this whole concept is a nonsense.
Antibiotics are some of most allergenic drugs out there, so should one bring epi-pen, steroids etc to treat potential brochospasm or anaphylaxis, that is, if he can self-treat anaphylactic shock?
Or should one only bring antibiotics that he/she had been exposed to? Lesser chance of allergic reaction, yes, but comes at a price of potential microbial resistance to a given drug.
I personally CPR'd a woman whose chronic mild hyperkaliemia became severe after her PCP gave her bactrim for UTI. PCP didn't know bactrim blocked potassium excretion. So, one is running down the jungle little dehydrated, gets prerenal azothemia, eats bananas or what-have-you available fruit rich in K, get K levels up, decides for whatever reason time to take his DS, gets K level even higher and is dead. Far fetched? Not for that woman who never made it.
And then there is my favorite, a C. diff. And Stevens-Johnson with common offenders of penicillin and sulfa. Or just simple diarrhea from macrolides - anybody wants to have diarrhea in a critical situation?
As I said, I didn't really want to get into this discussion much.
I haven't seen it in person either, but my colleagues have, it is FDA black-boxed, so must be happening to somebody often enough to be noticed. Question is whether one wants to have even 1/100,000 chance of a tendon rupture in a survival situation.
I agree, but wouldn't twisting an ankle/breaking it be more likely? Or being hit by a stray bullet? I get what you are saying, but I think your points below are much more reasonable.
While I mentioned that as a specific strike (IMO) against quinolones, this serves a purpose of showing how people get into stuff they have no clue about and not aware of consequences. I can present multiple examples why this whole concept is a nonsense.
Antibiotics are some of most allergenic drugs out there, so should one bring epi-pen, steroids etc to treat potential brochospasm or anaphylaxis, that is, if he can self-treat anaphylactic shock?
Even if that doesn't occur, (which I have not seen happen personally, but know for fact that it isn't at all pie in the sky), I HAVE seen antibiotics cause diarrhea in a LOT of patients. Want to have the shits with unknown water-sources/quantity for re-hydrating? I'll pass...
Or should one only bring antibiotics that he/she had been exposed to? Lesser chance of allergic reaction, yes, but comes at a price of potential microbial resistance to a given drug.
I really think that 2% CHG, neosporin, silvadene cream, and other supplies of the like are MUCH BETTER than aggressive broad-spectrum antibiotics to be taking up space in your kit. Carrying antibiotics liek Cipro and Zosyn and the like is similar to carrying a grenade with an unknown fuse delay of 0-10 seconds. Not many people would rely on that grenade...
I personally CPR'd a woman whose chronic mild hyperkaliemia became severe after her PCP gave her bactrim for UTI. PCP didn't know bactrim blocked potassium excretion. So, one is running down the jungle little dehydrated, gets prerenal azothemia, eats bananas or what-have-you available fruit rich in K, get K levels up, decides for whatever reason time to take his DS, gets K level even higher and is dead. Far fetched? Not for that woman who never made it. Agreed, which is why we do Chem8's and the like on people who are getting antibiotics, along with making sure we don't wipe out some kidneys. However, BMP's are hard to perform in the jungle/mountains/woods/basement for 99% of the people out there.
And then there is my favorite, a C. diff. And Stevens-Johnson with common offenders of penicillin and sulfa. Or just simple diarrhea from macrolides - anybody wants to have diarrhea in a critical situation?
Previously stated before I got here, agree with diarrhea being serious. Stephen-Johnson I have only seen one time, and we are still unsure if that was what it was, or something else, but it looked identical to all the pictures I saw of it in clinical. It was NOT! a good experience for the patient. Had they been anywhere but the hospital, that would have been it. Done.
As I said, I didn't really want to get into this discussion much.
People who want to self-medicate with antibiotics will. All you can do is make them informed users. It's their body, their decision, although I advise against it as well.
I agree with your points, although I think there is a difference between external factors you can't control (ankle twist, being hit) and self-ingesting a pill that has a very low but finite risk of limb function loss.
QuietShootr
11-17-11, 10:23
Funny thread.
..Why?
..Why?
The idea of packing Zosyn in a bug out bag. I know it metioned in jest. . . but I'm sure someone has it. somewhere.
Trying to get narcotics "just in case." (doesn't sound drug seeking at all). Everyone should have some MS tab's. You just never know . . .
I have to refer to my sandfords and pharmacopia most of the time, and I have a fairly basic understanding of antibiotics.
ABx get abuse so much as it is right now. People taking too much, people not taking the full treatment so they can "have some for later."
Just find that funny.
QuietShootr
11-17-11, 12:34
The idea of packing Zosyn in a bug out bag. I know it metioned in jest. . . but I'm sure someone has it. somewhere.
Trying to get narcotics "just in case." (doesn't sound drug seeking at all). Everyone should have some MS tab's. You just never know . . .
I have to refer to my sandfords and pharmacopia most of the time, and I have a fairly basic understanding of antibiotics.
ABx get abuse so much as it is right now. People taking too much, people not taking the full treatment so they can "have some for later."
Just find that funny.
We're kind of ridiculing those people.
For those of us who sort of know what we're doing, it makes sense (for example) to have some asskicker pain meds around. No, I'm not using a ****in' Actiq for a sprained ankle, but if I or one of mine ever get a big hole blown in them in a real SHTF situation it's nice to know I can make them/myself a little more comfortable while we do whatever can be done next. And yes, naloxone is available in case someone ****s up.
There are a surgeon, two regular MDs, a dentist, a veterinarian, and a passel o' nurses in my not-a-group. It's cool, we've got this.
One of the motivators for threads like this might be the incorporation of antibiotics in IFAK's issued to soldiers in OIF/OEF. The thinking that some survivalists have is: "if the Army is providing individual soldiers with antibiotics, it might be a good idea for me to have some at the ready as well."
It is true that sometime around 2005 the Army started putting antibiotics in these kits and medics were instructed to administer these in the field. However, it is important to understand that this decision was in response to a significant infection rate coming from IED-induced blast injuries. Keep in mind that the devistation of blast injuries in a desert environment was something relatively new to the medical community. We were struggling to deal with new pathogens in these grossly contaminated wounds and trying to salvage as much limb function as possible. It is also important to note that these self-administered antibiotics were a single loading dose prior to receiving fully supervised therapy in a controlled setting. I would caution against civilians trying to draw parallels with his wartime experience as a reason to store antibiotics for future use in a civilian SHTF scenerio.
I personally CPR'd a woman whose chronic mild hyperkaliemia became severe after her PCP gave her bactrim for UTI....
I put up a thread on here a couple months ago about giving an abx to a pt with UTI who also coded. We got her back, but damn, I have given that abx like a gazillion times over 21 years.
To me it comes down to the common sense rule: drugs have exp dates so what's the probabililty of me actually needing that drug before it goes out of date? Even when I was a globe-trottin' death-dealing military man as rarely needed abx, so now that I am not, I see very little need.
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