View Full Version : M&P vs G19 Parte Deux: Photo Essay
Difference in length is 0.65 in, or about 5 %, and in height is 0.5 in. (also 5%). Thickness is virtually identical. Weight difference is 3.01 oz. or 7 %. A more direct comparison is the G17, which is within 1% dimensionally, although 1.96 oz. or 4% lighter.
The main difference I see carry-wise is the half-inch greater rearward protrusion of the grip. Hopefully a good holster with the right cant angle can address that.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/length.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/height.jpg
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/thickness.jpg
The big difference for me shooting-wise is in the grip, which on the G19 as any Glock is rather boxy.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_grip.jpg
I among others maintain that one measure of a correct grip configuration is alignment of the bore axis with the forearm. This directs the recoil straight back without any sideways component that compromises follow-up return to the target. I can position the G19 this way, but that is not how it naturally falls.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_straight_top.jpg
I must pull the heel of my palm around the butt of the G19, which prevents the fingers from reaching fully around the frontstrap (note that the knuckles are off-center), and also leaves about an 1/8-inch air gap between the side of the grip and the pit of the palm.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_straight_bottom.jpg
Placing the G19 more naturally and fully into the pit of palm removes the gap and gets the fingers farther around the frontstrap (centered knuckles), but in so doing throws off the bore-axis alignment.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_crooked_top.jpg http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_crooked-bottom.jpg
In contrast to the G19, the grip on the M&P has a more oval cross section (shown here with the small-size inserts), much like other models that have fit me well including the 1911, CZ75B, and Beretta VERTEC.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/mp_grip.jpg
Even placed fully into the pit of palm, the M&P maintains bore-axis alignment with the forearm.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/mp_top.jpg
There is no gap between the palm and side of the grip, and the fingers reach fully around to center the knuckles across the frontstrap.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/mp_bottom.jpg
Among other considerations, I’ve always actually liked the Glock’s white-outline rear sight. “Put the dot in the box.” Although they are cheaply made, they are durable, easy to see, and do the job for my rapidly aging eyes.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_sights.jpg
The M&P’s three-dot system gives me the same trouble as this design has on other guns. “Dammit - which dot is the front sight??? !!!” I’ll have to get some kind of replacement rear.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/mp_sights.jpg
Glock insists on keeping the hooked and textured trigger guard intended for placing the index finger of the weak hand, a technique now almost universally discounted and a design dropped by most makers nearly 20 years ago. I’ve also never really been comfortable with the ridged and serrated trigger face.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_trigger.jpg
Like most current models, the trigger guard of the M&P does just that: guards the trigger. I also like the flat and smooth trigger face.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/mp_trigger.jpg
In summary, the M&P appears to handle as well for me as the earlier mentioned, much heavier and bulkier models. It may become the best performing pistol that I can actually carry on an everyday basis.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/with_m7p15_1.jpg
John_Wayne777
11-20-07, 07:28
The rear sight can be fixed fairly cheaply using a black sharpie. Just color in the dots.
There are plenty of good rear sights out there (like the Warren sight) but if plain black is your only desire you can get it with model paint or a sharpie on the rear sights.
.......other models that have fit me well including the 1911, CZ75B, and Beretta VERTEC......the M&P appears to handle as well for me as the earlier mentioned, much heavier and bulkier models.......
A little follow-up FYI, these full-size models exceed the M&P dimensionally by up to 8%, and by weight by as much as a whopping 24%!:eek:
You didn't mention length but it looks a good .5" longer as well.
Next comparison should be the compact models. ;)
PS - I switched out my G30 trigger long ago for a smooth one... I think I got it from Lone Wolf.
You didn't mention length but it looks a good .5" longer as well.....
There's some variation among the full-size service pistols, so I did some generalizing here.
.....Next comparison should be the compact models. ;).....
Some have argued the G19 is close to the M&P, but the G17 is really a lot closer (nearly exact) match size-wise, so I think the G19 still occupies a distinct niche. The compact M&P seems most comparable to the G26, but I don't own either of those to tell first-hand.
.....PS - I switched out my G30 trigger long ago for a smooth one... I think I got it from Lone Wolf.
Some have also discussed the relative merits of the triggers, and I'm sure improvements can be accomplished on either platform. They both remain basically in the same class to me though, distinct for-instance from a good 1911 trigger.
I think S&W did a great job sizing the M&P's right between their Glock counterparts. The M&P9/40 is sized between the Glock Full Size and Compacts...while the M&P Compacts are sized between the Glock Compacts and Subcompacts.
Sidewinder6
11-28-07, 13:31
Great job on the post. Along the same line, Id love to see an analysis done on the triggers with a digital gauge and also measure the travel/break distances.
I have not been a Smith fan since the days of the Model 39 and 59 so I had this mental wall to get over. (In honesty, it was the DA/SA thing)
I shot the M&P 9 when it came out (at a demo by Doug Koening ) and fingered a number of others in shops and cannot get past the feeling of grinding. I have similar issues with the travel on Glock triggers that I get rid of pretty close to the time that I dump the factory sights. After that, I am spoiled on these simple and reliable firearms. They are about as easy to maintain as a 1911.
I think the M&P is attractive and have a good profile for concealment but I stop after that.
John Fettes
11-28-07, 22:55
I have a second generation G19 & a Glock 26, and have considered a MP9 or MP9c. I guess that the G19 splits the difference in size between the two Smiths. I'd compared the G26 &9c, but think that I need to take a closer look at the 9 vs. the 9c.
I have a MP45 and am pleased with it.
John
Littlelebowski
12-01-07, 20:33
Any sights that wear down from drawing from a holster are not "durable" in my book.
Excellent photo review. Just purchased my first Glock, will have to pick-up one of these M&P's, good price and they're getting nice reviews.
IdahoCorsair
12-06-07, 23:17
Just simply curious. Why did you say it was important that the bore line up with the forearm? I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone shoot that way. :( Please enlighten me, my friend.
Thanks for responding for me Tom.
IdahoCorsair, allow me to elaborate.
Pick up a particular handgun (or you can try this on more than one) and see where it most naturally fits in your hand. Most comfortable, secure, balanced, whatever feels best and will stay put while firing. Then note whether or not the bore axis lines up with the axis of your forearm.
Next, take a firm stance holding the gun straight out one-handed and shoot into the berm. You don't need any target, just line-up the sights and watch closely at what the gun does.
If the bore and arm axes are aligned, you should see the gun recoil straight up in the vertical plane and back down, probably very close to its pre-fired position. You should also easily be able to visually track the front sight during recoil, a very important component of speed shooting that keeps you always positioned for the follow-up shot.
If the bore and forearm axes are out of alignment, the gun will torque to one side in an spiral arc. Usually the axis offset is with the gun to the left of the arm (for a right handed shooter), which will cause the gun to torque also to the left. It will be far more difficult to track the front sight, and the gun is a lot less likely to automatically return to its pre-fired position.
Try this next time you go to the range and let us know what you see.
IdahoCorsair
12-07-07, 11:26
blackscot,
Sorry, it seems your were talking about one-handed shooting. Then of course your comments now make sense.
Excellent review! The M&P 9 is on purchase list when I get back to the states next month.
blackscot,
Sorry, it seems your were talking about one-handed shooting. Then of course your comments now make sense.
The same considerations apply for two-handed. The support hand is there for just that: support. Your strong hand should always be doing everything the same, whether or not your support hand is being used.
I suggest testing the grip alignment one handed only because it is easier to see and control what is going on with the gun during recoil.
Glock insists on keeping the hooked and textured trigger guard intended for placing the index finger of the weak hand, a technique now almost universally discounted and a design dropped by most makers nearly 20 years ago. I’ve also never really been comfortable with the ridged and serrated trigger face.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_trigger.jpg
I must be retarded because that's how I've been shooting handguns for a very long time. I first started doing it with the 1911 because it just went naturally with a high-hand hold, thumbs up on the slide stop and safety.
Is there any particular reason the technique is discounted?
I must be retarded because that's how I've been shooting handguns for a very long time. I first started doing it with the 1911 because it just went naturally with a high-hand hold, thumbs up on the slide stop and safety.
Is there any particular reason the technique is discounted?
Stop watching Martin Riggs in Lethal Weapon shoot. :D
Using the the trigger guard as a rest for our index finger is poor shooting forum and know of NO instructor that teaches this.
C4
Erick Gelhaus
12-10-07, 19:46
Blackscot-
Nice job. Thank you for the time & effort.
John Fettes
12-10-07, 19:54
Many of the folks I watched shooting the 1911 pattern pistol with their index finger of the non-dominant hand on their trigger guard lost contact with the trigger guard during the weapon's cycle. They would then have to re-establish their grip after each shot.
This is worth what you are paying for it, but I think that you can establish a stronger grip of the pistol by having that index finger under the trigger guard locking the grip of the dominant hand.
Bill Wilson checkered the front of the trigger guard on my old IPSC blaster 25 + years ago. I abandoned putting my index finger on it many years ago.
John
I must be retarded because that's how I've been shooting handguns for a very long time. I first started doing it with the 1911 because it just went naturally with a high-hand hold, thumbs up on the slide stop and safety.
Is there any particular reason the technique is discounted?
Well Matthew, for most folks it just doesn't seem to work very well. The weak-hand finger has to be extended beyond the point where it is really doing anything to reduce recoil, and separating it from the other fingers only reduces the effectiveness of the weak-hand's overall support function.
I am, however, the most vocal advocate that one size does not fit all, and that everyone needs to find and objectively test new ideas to make their own conclusions. This is to me part of what makes shooting such an interesting endeavor.
One point I will insist on though, is that the whole idea of trying to reduce recoil -- i.e. fighting it -- is a futile approach. The gun will recoil as much or as little as it needs to, which the shooter needs to accept and learn to move with rather than against.
.....you can establish a stronger grip of the pistol by having that index finger under the trigger guard locking the grip of the dominant hand.....
This is widely recognized as the most effective technique, and is currently taught by probably any reputable instruction program.
It also happens to be what works best for me personally. Yes, the gun does recoil -- I've learned to accept that -- but both of my hands stay put during the process. Most importantly, the gun returns exactly to its pre-fired position and ready for the follow-up shot (given a proper bore/forearm axis alignment as previously discussed).
Another GREAT reason to not put your finger on the trigger guard is because if you have a weapon mounted light, you cannot put your finger there any more. ;)
So you might as well stop doing it.
C4
sigmundsauer
12-11-07, 18:14
Another GREAT reason to not put your finger on the trigger guard is because if you have a weapon mounted light, you cannot put your finger there any more. ;)
So you might as well stop doing it.
C4
I can think of no good reason why placing your finger on the trigger guard is bad form. I did it for many years with very good results and never experienced a down side to doing so. However, I see no advantage to doing so either. I stopped in recent years because i found it unnecessary and have not missed it. What felt natural years ago, feels a bit more "complicated" to acquire now.
Tim
the1911fan
12-11-07, 19:08
I can think of no good reason why placing your finger on the trigger guard is bad form.
Tim
I have been to a more than a few training classes with top level trainers and none advocate it. That's a clue
I can think of no good reason why placing your finger on the trigger guard is bad form. I did it for many years with very good results and never experienced a down side to doing so. However, I see no advantage to doing so either. I stopped in recent years because i found it unnecessary and have not missed it. What felt natural years ago, feels a bit more "complicated" to acquire now.
Tim
Poor grip is the reason.
C4
I have been to a more than a few training classes with top level trainers and none advocate it. That's a clue
Yes it is.
C4
sigmundsauer
12-12-07, 12:00
Yes it is.
C4
C4 and 1911fan,
What makes it poor, may I inquire? Can you articulate why it's poor rather than just citing that no one advocates it. I'm all ears.
Poor grip? Yes, maybe for some, but I'd wager that it has far more to do with an individual's hand and the weapon being used than simply concluding as a blanket statement that it doesn't work.
I surmise that many instructors don't advocate it (for the same reasons I don't as a general rule) it simply offers no significant advantages over more conventional grips. Some instructors are simply dogmatic.
Tim
I’ve also never really been comfortable with the ridged and serrated trigger face.
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n232/blackscot/pistols/mp-vs-g19/g19_trigger.jpg
According to Glock, its done for import points due to its size. The serrated trigger with trigger bar can be easily and cheaply replaced, and its one of the few changes I made on my G19. If you like the G19, it may be something you want to look into.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Handguns/IMG_9040%20Stick%20G19.jpg
David Thomas
12-12-07, 12:55
C4 and 1911fan,
What makes it poor, may I inquire? Can you articulate why it's poor rather than just citing that no one advocates it. I'm all ears.
Poor grip? Yes, maybe for some, but I'd wager that it has far more to do with an individual's hand and the weapon being used than simply concluding as a blanket statement that it doesn't work.
I surmise that many instructors don't advocate it (for the same reasons I don't as a general rule) it simply offers no significant advantages over more conventional grips. Some instructors are simply dogmatic.
Tim
This topic has derailed a little from the original post, but in response to the finger on the trigger guard isssue, I will reply as follows. It has nothing to do with being dogmatic or blanket statements. It has more to do with geometry and physics and the process of evolution. Grips/stances/styles have all changed and evolved over the years. Accordingly, the current method or grip for two hand pistol shooting based on this process of evolution has resulted in a two handed grip on the gun virtually precludes wrapping your finger around the trigger guard. To do would put your thumb and wrist in the wrong position/alignment.
I am far from an expert on the subject, and if I am wrong someone will be along shortly to correct me. Also, if you haven't seen it already watch the Todd Jarret video and read the information contained in one of GOTM4's posts regarding Dave Sevigny's grip. Both are informative.
sigmundsauer
12-12-07, 13:55
This topic has derailed a little from the original post, but in response to the finger on the trigger guard isssue, I will reply as follows. It has nothing to do with being dogmatic or blanket statements. It has more to do with geometry and physics and the process of evolution. Grips/stances/styles have all changed and evolved over the years. Accordingly, the current method or grip for two hand pistol shooting based on this process of evolution has resulted in a two handed grip on the gun virtually precludes wrapping your finger around the trigger guard. To do would put your thumb and wrist in the wrong position/alignment.
I am far from an expert on the subject, and if I am wrong someone will be along shortly to correct me. Also, if you haven't seen it already watch the Todd Jarret video and read the information contained in one of GOTM4's posts regarding Dave Sevigny's grip. Both are informative.
Yes, Dave, I agree the topic has derailed, in no small part to me. Oh well, it's a discussion forum.
I would agree that certain two-handed grips do preclude the need to wrap a finger around the trigger guard, which is why I personally no longer do so. However, that technique is still viable, and on certain weapons can increase isometric tension and absorb trigger errors better. I wouldn't do it for the purposes of recoil control, though.
Recoil control and technique in general are all very dependent on the individual shooter and the weapon being used. What causes a grip to break on a 1911 may be perfectly adequate on a 9mm SIG. However, I will state that a conventional two-hand grip will usually work well with most all pistols, and that's a good reason to use it.
No dogmatic instructors?! Come on! :P
Tim
Yes, Dave, I agree the topic has derailed, in no small part to me. Oh well, it's a discussion forum.
I would agree that certain two-handed grips do preclude the need to wrap a finger around the trigger guard, which is why I personally no longer do so. However, that technique is still viable, and on certain weapons can increase isometric tension and absorb trigger errors better. I wouldn't do it for the purposes of recoil control, though.
Recoil control and technique in general are all very dependent on the individual shooter and the weapon being used. What causes a grip to break on a 1911 may be perfectly adequate on a 9mm SIG. However, I will state that a conventional two-hand grip will usually work well with most all pistols, and that's a good reason to use it.
No dogmatic instructors?! Come on! :P
Tim
I can also shot my handguns upside down and hit the target (maybe better than some people can shoot normally). The point is that you can train/condition yourself to overcome any obstacle (given enough time and practice). Since pistol shooting (well) is hard enough, why make it even that much hard by using a poor grip?? Putting your finger on the trigger guard gives you no advantage and in most cases creates problems. It also cannot use a weapon mounted light (which is a must IMHO).
C4
sigmundsauer
12-12-07, 17:26
I can also shot my handguns upside down and hit the target (maybe better than some people can shoot normally). The point is that you can train/condition yourself to overcome any obstacle (given enough time and practice). Since pistol shooting (well) is hard enough, why make it even that much hard by using a poor grip?? Putting your finger on the trigger guard gives you no advantage and in most cases creates problems. It also cannot use a weapon mounted light (which is a must IMHO).
C4
C4,
I respect your opinion, though I disagree that it is an obstacle. For the many who don't shoot with a weapon mounted light, it's a moot point.
I can shoot just as accurately, and am fully able to lock down my primary grip using my support hand regardless of my finger on or off the trigger guard. It can be done without sacrificing anything. Just because some can't doesn't make it obsolete. I would agree that it is unnecessary and marginally more complicated, but I won't dispel it as defunct. There are enough variations in pistol grips that any grip once mastered should work (trade-offs and advantages not discounted).
My definition of a poor grip is one that cannot be compensated for because it inherently compromised. I don't think this is one of them. Opinions vary, and I would not purposefully teach this grip either, as there are simpler options. And I would never use it with a 1911, which seems to be the unspoken baseline for all references. It is perfectly viable on SIGs and Glocks.
Tim
Steelshooter
01-03-08, 00:19
Nice review. It will be interesting to see if newer polymer pistols like the XD and M&P cause Glock to make any major changes to their ergonomics or design. I think the 21SF is a direct response to the XD .45 since the GAP isn't going anywhere. My guess is Glock won't do much for awhile though.
As to the G 19/23 it is one of the few smaller pistols that fits my hand meaning I can get all my fingers around it. i can't do that with the compact M&P's. I guess it's a moot point since I CCW a full size M&P .45 in a High Noon slide guard holster.....
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