View Full Version : What's not to like about compact ACOG's?
Doc Safari
10-24-11, 13:33
I was reading a past thread on compact ACOG's:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48400
It sounds like one person is extremely satisfied with the TA44-SG10 mounted on Larue LT-105, but there aren't many recent threads on the compact ACOG's.
I like the price, the reticle, the eye relief...what's not to like?
Are there other better mounting options since that and other old threads came out?
It puzzles me that more people don't use them. Have they lost favor for some reason I missed doing my searches?
I'm narrowing my choice down to a larger ACOG, Aimpont CompM4S, Trijicon TR24, or possibly this compact TA44SG-10.
My shooting might be from zero yards to 300, so I'm really trying to decide. I like the good clear optics of the ACOG's in general. Although I could probably adapt to an Aimpoint with iron sights co-witnessed, I'm not really happy going that route because that sight picture has a lot of visual clutter.
Thoughts?
Biggest problem is price: it prohibits many from being able to give them a shot. I just traded my Aimpoint T1 for a TA33 ACOG and couldn't be happier. Were I to find a good deal on a TA44 or similar, I probably would have gone for it.
The other problem is reticle washout when looking through the optic from a dark area to a bright area. That is a problem with all ACOGs. Of course, you gain the advantage of never needing batteries and a near bomb-proof optic.
I think the 1.5x models with circle-dot reticles make a lot of sense for a defensive carbine.
Crow Hunter
10-24-11, 17:46
I'll turn the question around on you.
What advantages do you see that it has over the others? ;)
I don't have any personal experience with the compacts, but I do have a little experience with the TA33. One I owned for a short while and the other I fired on a HK 416. (Full auto:cool:)
While the TA33 was a nice optic. It didn't fit how I expected to use my optic most of the time and there were things about it that I really didn't like. I found that it didn't meet my needs as good as the Comp M4 does.
Looking at the specs of the TA44 I can see it might have alot of the drawbacks of the TA33 for me. I would want to see it in person to see if I have the same issue with FOV. With the TA 33 eye relief was great, but you have to keep your eye very centered in the optic or you couldn't see through the scope. It was especially problematic from prone. It doesn't have the BDC. It has something that you could use I am sure as reference points though. If it is anything like the TA33 behind a light, it isn't bad, but against a mottled surface, like a stone fireplace, you couldn't find the reticle unless you put a cap on the objective lense and then it wasn't that bright.
You are probably going to have to break down and buy it and try it to know for sure. It sucks, but hopefully you can sell it without losing your shirt too bad.
I personally would recommend starting with the most popular (as in the one you think will be the easiest to sell) and work your way down until you find the one that works for you and sell/trade off what you find out you don't like.
As to the clutter in the field of view. It isn't noticeable at all with an Aimpoint type optic you just look at the target and put the dot on it. I even went to fixed rear when I realized how I didn't notice them at all. I notice them alot with a magnified optic. I find them very aggravating and I wouldn't want to have a magnified optic without a folding front sight.
Sorry it's so long. But I hope it helps you some.
Crow Hunter
10-24-11, 19:00
Just to add my rule of thumb:
Choose a sighting system that will allow you to see your target with enough clarity to make the hits you want to make in the environment you plan on shooting.
Is that vague enough for you?:D
I own a TA33HG and a TA44G. They are both great optics for thier purposes. For me the purpose of the TA44 is for my wife who has an astigmatism and can't use RDS. The TA33 is just a great jack of all trades, master of none. It is my least used optic but I still like it on occasion.
For true long range or precision my Nightforce 2.5-10 is superior in every way. For up close to about 50 yards the T-1's are my preference. I feel the TA33 gives up nothing to the larger TA01's and TA31's. I have owned many different versions and the TA33 is my preference of the ACOG's. If I was planning on regularly shooting 0-300 I might look towards a 1-4. But if shooting at 300 regularly I prefer the above mentioned Nightforce.
If I had only one optic for the majority of my shooting it would be a T-1. My next would be a magnified variable. After that would come the TA33. I believe the TA44 is a niche type optic and the TA33 is a compromise, as are most ACOG's. It can do a bit of everything but as I already stated it's not the best for any single type of shooting.
Another thing to consider is that to become and stay proficient with the ACOG's takes a commitment time wise. They are not as forgiving and take constant training to stay competent in their use. My wife only shoots an AR with her TA44. 90% of my time is spent with Aimpoints.
So to answer your question there is nothing wrong with the mini ACOG's. They may be the best answer for you. FWIW both of mine are on Larue mounts. I also prefer folding front and rear sights so there is no reaon for the clutter if it bothers you.
Doc Safari
10-25-11, 08:48
Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately I'm leaning toward the wisest advice to be "buy the one that's easiest to sell if you don't like it."
I have astigmatism, but an Aimpoint red dot is distinct enough that it looks like a red star shining in the sky at the low settings. At higher settings it looks like a flame.
I was leaning to an ACOG or Accupoint because it doesn't need batteries and there is some magnification.
Crow Hunter
10-25-11, 09:21
Thanks for the replies. Unfortunately I'm leaning toward the wisest advice to be "buy the one that's easiest to sell if you don't like it."
I have astigmatism, but an Aimpoint red dot is distinct enough that it looks like a red star shining in the sky at the low settings. At higher settings it looks like a flame.
I was leaning to an ACOG or Accupoint because it doesn't need batteries and there is some magnification.
The dot will be better if you aren't looking at it specifically and the brighter the ambient light the less of a "flame" you will see.
In the noon day sun I have to turn up my M4 to 15 or 16 to see it. If I did the same thing in the house, I can't see past the dot it flares/blooms so bad.
I think you should get a TA11 with a Red Horseshoe. That way if you don't like it you can sell it to me. :jester:
(That is one of two optics that I have wanted to try that I haven't)
My optic decisions start to finish and why I changed:
-TR24 Green triangle - Too heavy, didn't like the FSB in the way, I don't like using a pointed reticle.
-Aimpoint M4S with 3x FTS magnifier - Magnifier is too heavy, gets in the way, don't really need magnification, especially without reference points for long range hold overs.
-TA33 Green Horseshoe - FSB in the way, mount too tall (factory), head position too critical to see full FOV.
I went back to the M4S sans magnifier (which is for sale by the way :D) and it seems to be the best fit for me and my shooting.
The only things that I didn't try that I would like to is:
TA11 with a Red Horseshoe but I don't want to spring for that much cash for an optic as similar as it is to the TA33. I assumed I would have similar problems with it as well. I also like red better than green, it stands out more to my eye.
Or a Leupold M R/T with the SPR reticle (I like that reticle alot). But I figured it will have the same weight issue/FSB reflection problem that the TR24 did though.
Good luck on your search. Maybe you will achieve optic Nirvana one day.:D
Doc Safari
10-25-11, 09:25
Truth be told I wish I could put the ACOG, TR24, and Aimpont CompM4S into that machine in "The Fly" and combine them into the perfect optic.
:jester:
Truth be told I wish I could put the ACOG, TR24, and Aimpont CompM4S into that machine in "The Fly" and combine them into the perfect optic.
:jester:
You mean a 1-6x24 variable with a FO and tritium in a compact package, a red horseshoe and a FFP BDC? I would save up my pennys and maybe sell a gun just for that optic.
brzusa.1911
10-25-11, 13:00
ACOG TA33H is awesome!!! However, I only use it for range fun and as a backup, my main rifle has an Aimpoint PRO without magnification specific for HD where I need for < 25 yards and really fast target acquisition.
Crow Hunter
10-25-11, 13:11
Truth be told I wish I could put the ACOG, TR24, and Aimpont CompM4S into that machine in "The Fly" and combine them into the perfect optic.
:jester:
Or you it could come out as an optic that weighs too much, is too complicated, has a BDC that doesn't match anything, is too bright in the dark and too dim in the light and when you try to turn it off says, "I'm sorry Dave, I am afraid I can't do that".
:D
Doc Safari
10-25-11, 13:15
My main "want" is fast target acquisition, which screams "red dot."
As a result I will probably get the Aimpoint CompM4s.
I love the clarity and brightness of the ACOG reticles, though, and I wish the red dots somehow miraculously came with a variable power setting.
Maybe in another ten years?
Crow Hunter
10-25-11, 14:41
My main "want" is fast target acquisition, which screams "red dot."
As a result I will probably get the Aimpoint CompM4s.
I love the clarity and brightness of the ACOG reticles, though, and I wish the red dots somehow miraculously came with a variable power setting.
Maybe in another ten years?
I am often wrong, but I don't think you can do that.
I think having the extra lenses in place to allow for the ability to magnify the image preclude the features that make the RDS useful. (Limited parallax, unlimited eye relief)
I think to do that you will have to have 2 separate "sighting systems" to get that to work. Like a magnifier or something else that can be flipped/cammed/twisted into place to magnify the image. Or a multiple mirror system that bounces it up and around. I "think" that is how the Elcan works.
I thought that I wanted magnification because I use it for hunting until I tried it "in the field". My hunting usually involved sitting in a stand/blind and "sniping" things that weren't aware that I was there.
When I took the magnified optic out and tried it out on animals actively trying to get away from me, it wasn't so good anymore. It actually became more of a hinderance than an advantage.
If I were going to "shoot offensively", magnification would definitely be an advantage. But using my rifle defensively, as a civilian, not really much use for it and it requires alot more training commitment than I am willing to give.
In my experience.
Doc Safari
10-25-11, 15:21
A few years ago I would have thought it was impossible to leave an RDS on for eight years on the same AA battery, but you see it's possible now.
I'm just wondering what they might be working on in some dark lab somewhere....:cool:
Failure2Stop
10-25-11, 15:26
My main "want" is fast target acquisition, which screams "red dot."
This is a really common misunderstanding with optics.
It doesn't need to be bright, so much as it needs to be noticable and easily indexed. For most, this requirement turns into "bright dot" but it can also easily be thick crosshairs or a thick post, or a contrasting reticle.
Some of the brilliant features of RDSs is that they are parallax free (practically), unconstricted by eye-relief, allow target focus shooting with high precision, and have very little visual distortion which permits two-eyed shooting readily.
Some 1-4X optics achieve these requirements for rapid precision at 1X, and a few less do it well at 4X also.
Frankly, no ACOG has the rapid reticle acquisition accross the lighting spectrum that several low powered variables do.
Of course, Aimpoints and EoTechs have very noticable and usable reticles, far better in real world use than any COG at distances under 100 meters.
Now, if you are talking about run-n-gun competition I would recommend several ACOGs, but that's due to the task and condition of use, which is not the same as using the gun in a fight.
Crow Hunter
10-25-11, 16:03
A few years ago I would have thought it was impossible to leave an RDS on for eight years on the same AA battery, but you see it's possible now.
I'm just wondering what they might be working on in some dark lab somewhere....:cool:
Unfortunately, sometimes Physics get in the way. :)
But I am not an optics designer, so maybe there is a way that I haven't thought of.
lifebreath
10-25-11, 17:17
Everyone should own at least one ACOG just because they are a thing of beauty. I love my TA31-H. I love looking through it. But on my HD gun, it's Aimpoint all the way.
The ACOG is a rugged, robust optic, perfectly suited to applications of 30 to 300+ meters. It's a little difficult up close. Not impossible, just not immediately intuitive like an Aimpoint or other 1X fast acquisition sights.
Actually, my easiest to use and most versatile optic for both close quarters and some distance is the Trijicon TR24 with green triangle. However, it's not as rugged as either the ACOG or Aimpoint. Both the ACOG and TR24 are not so hot for an indoor night sight, especially with a weapons light.
Having said all that, the ACOG might be the optic I would choose if I had to have only one gun, one optic for if all hell broke loose ...
Doc Safari
10-25-11, 17:36
It doesn't need to be bright, so much as it needs to be noticable and easily indexed. For most, this requirement turns into "bright dot" but it can also easily be thick crosshairs or a thick post, or a contrasting reticle.
This I have found from experience, too, hence if I get the Aimpoint I'm prepared to have to get used to the visual clutter that comes with co-witnessing to the A2-style irons. I just don't pick up the reticle in a cross-hair scope like a TR24 quickly enough without parallax that I'm comfortable with it. I thought that the mini-ACOG might be the best of both worlds, but I could be wrong never having handled one. Evidently not if it requires constant familiarization.
Soooo, bottom line, are you hinting that I might be happiest with an Accupoint 1-4 variable or similar optic and learn to overcome its weaknesses with training? And are they as durable as other choices?
Some of the brilliant features of RDSs is that they are parallax free (practically), unconstricted by eye-relief, allow target focus shooting with high precision, and have very little visual distortion which permits two-eyed shooting readily.
Yes, that would be my list of reasons to own one too although I slip back into one-eye shooting occasionally. Truth be told, except for durability issues and what is now considered paltry battery life I'd be all over an Eotech.
Some 1-4X optics achieve these requirements for rapid precision at 1X, and a few less do it well at 4X also.
I know you're a fan of the SWFA model. I still have the TR24 in the back of my mind, but I lean toward the Aimpoint right now.
Frankly, no ACOG has the rapid reticle acquisition accross the lighting spectrum that several low powered variables do.
This I'll have to make note of since I've never used one for real, only fondling in gun shops and gun shows. I really like the clarity of ACOG's glass.
Of course, Aimpoints and EoTechs have very noticable and usable reticles, far better in real world use than any COG at distances under 100 meters.
I have to put an asterisk on this one because of my astigmatism. I see the Aimpoint and Eotech reticles as a little "furry". The Aimpoint dot looks like a red star (with points) at low settings, and looks like a fuzzy blob at higher settings. Bright sunlight does tend to improve things. It's acceptable, but I sure expected the dot to be more "defined." The rest of your description is part of what made me consider them for fast target acquisition though.
Now, if you are talking about run-n-gun competition I would recommend several ACOGs, but that's due to the task and condition of use, which is not the same as using the gun in a fight.
I'll have to take your word for it here. I've been in run-n-gun competitions, but not with an ACOG.
You mean a 1-6x24 variable with a FO and tritium in a compact package, a red horseshoe and a FFP BDC? I would save up my pennys and maybe sell a gun just for that optic.
add a zero stop, night vision, a gun cam and thermal, let's go full retard.
just kidding, that optic would be awesome (the zero stop was legit of course, the rest was just ridiculousness).
back on topic, I've been mulling over a compact ACOG, and and I really like the concept but I worry that I won't find them enough optic for my longer-range needs (there was a time when zero-magnification was enough at long range, but no more). Also, the 3x and 3.5x are heavier than the 4x TA31A (my choice ACOG, all things considered).
Failure2Stop
10-25-11, 22:32
I am a fan of certain features, ones that I find enhance my performance. There is no one optic that meets all of my wants at this point, so while I sound like a "fan" of a particular optic, I assure that it is simply certain features that I am a "fan" of.
If your eyes cannot clearly resolve an Aimpoint dot, you will fall behind on precise targets at distance when compared to other otic solutions. Still great for 50ish and in, but the inability to consistently hold on target or on a specific hold-over will result in lower performance than with an optic that works with your eyes.
I recently got a TA44sr-10 with and ADM mount both lightly used for a total of $750. I sold a TR24 triangle with Larue mount to purchase it.
I had 4 of the TR24's. Lov'em, just wanted to try something different. I also have 2 Aimpont M4's.
I like it so far, shot 500 rounds with it the other day from 5 yards to 100 yards, performed well from a variety of shooting positions.
Its a nice little optic.
I'd say go for it, look around on the EE here and tos, I've seen a few pop up for sale lately. Worse thing is if you dont like it for some reason you can always re-sell it.
It sounds like one person is extremely satisfied with the TA44-SG10 mounted on Larue LT-105, but there aren't many recent threads on the compact ACOG's.
I like the price, the reticle, the eye relief...what's not to like?
Are there other better mounting options since that and other old threads came out?
It puzzles me that more people don't use them. Have they lost favor for some reason I missed doing my searches?
If you are picking between T1 and "something comparable" then yes you've picked a winner in the TA44. The TA33 is a whole different ballgame. 3x power is a totally different world than 1x or 1.5x and I would not even compare the two optics at all for what you are talking about.
The Trijicon TA44SG-10 is one of the most underrated and underused optics in the carbine world if only because so very few have ever heard of or tried them. It is not even listed on the ACOG reference chart for this very site oddly enough. If more people knew about this optic and how solid it is I'm convinced you'd see more people raving about 'em. It's just that everyone sees the T1 as "the optic to get" in this area so that is what they buy.
The best is to do what someone mentioned earlier; buy both and run them for a while side-by-side. I've used the TA44s since they came out and have since sold all my T1s; but that's me. I picked the TA44SG-10 over the T1 for several reasons:
• Better glass. Hold a T1 and TA44 up to your eyes and view multiple types of objects, indoor and outdoor. The optic quality in the Trijicon is noticeably brighter, sharper and with no distortion and perfect color temperature. The dot and ring stay perfectly crisp. (The T1 certainly doesn't look bad, but the glass is less sharp, not as bright, and with more distortion and imbalanced color temperature. Like anything optic related, you really notice this side-by-side.)
• For someone with aging eyes or astigmatism the TA44 displaces the red blob or figure-eight problems associated with the T1.
• No electronics/circuits to fail. No batteries to replace. Bomb-proof ACOG design. (Although the T1 is pretty damn bomb-proof as well.)
• If mounted correctly on your rail there is almost no "tube effect". With a QD mount you can really fine tune this and get the outer case of this optic to disappear before you zero; more so than the T1 in my case.
• Eyes pick up the green dot easier than red. Partially because the human eye is most sensitive to green push (this is perhaps most evident in the current display calibration/home theater world as ISF calibrators will tell you), but in my case also because of decades of practicing shooting tritium sights on pistols; I'm consistent with green dots on everything across the board.
People will say the T1 is a "faster" optic. If you are a world class shooter, who knows. For mere mortals you will not notice a speed decrease when engaging targets at 50, 75 or 100 yards. Respected shooters like like rob_s and militarymorons both commented on the TA44/T1 and stated that they noticed no speed differences at all. Rest assured that the TA44 is an incredibly fast optic for shooting and transitioning targets at these ranges.
Despite what people say about the optic up close (another reason I think no one has really tried this optic)—say sub 25 yards—I've found no issues with the 1.5x at all. Yes, it's noticeable that you are magnified but just barely. It's hard to describe but you really just get used to it and come to enjoy the 1.5x at the medium distances.
People will also say a green dot is hard to see in any type of lush, green forest environment. Again, they have obviously never spent time with the TA44. The dot is not multicam green. The vibrant neon color of the reticle is nothing like what appears in nature and it pops out against even the greenest of grass colors. Spend some time hiking and plinking at different times of the year and you'll see that not much of anything is really that green anyways. Reds, oranges and tans appear just as often.
The only downsides are that the TA44 w/ LaRue mount is just a tad heavier than the T1 w/ LaRue mount; a little over an ounce. No big deal, really. But it's there.
Also, in certain types of indoor lighting, as others have mentioned, the dot/ring can be a little tougher to pick up if you're changing backgrounds frequently. For my purposes this is a non-issue. It is not unusable by any means, it's just that without the extra boost from the fiber optic tube it is harder to pick up in low light.
Doc Safari
10-26-11, 09:00
Excellent post, JChops. You confirmed my hopes and didn't add any new worries.
The only downsides are that the TA44 w/ LaRue mount is just a tad heavier than the T1 w/ LaRue mount; a little over an ounce. No big deal, really. But it's there.
Are there other mounting options? Also, you don't mention it, but how much of the fixed front sight assembly is visible through the TA44? I read a thread or two where this was touched on and using the TA60 mounting base seems to be the best bet here, but may mount the optic too high for some (this is what I inferred).
Thoughts?
Alan Williams
10-26-11, 09:06
Doc-I too recently experienced the same dilema as you. Had an EO Tech 512 on my AR and my 40+ eyes were having trouble with 100 yds+ shots (most of my shooting is 0-200 yrds.) I chose the Accupoint 1-4 with Larue mount and Magpul fold down backup sites http://www.laruetactical.com/trijicon-accupoint-1-4x24-30mm-riflescope-german-4-crosshair-w-larue-tactical-lt-104-30
Couldn't be happier; I dial it down to 1X for close-in home defense "green dot" readiness but find I crank it back over to 4X for any distance shooting. I also have a slight astigmatism and have to squint my non-dominant eye to get a clear image with a RDS but the Accupoint is very clear. BTW, the guys at Larue were top notch to deal with; even ended up getting a weapon light from them too.
Doc Safari
10-26-11, 09:16
Doc-I too recently experienced the same dilema as you. Had an EO Tech 512 on my AR and my 40+ eyes were having trouble with 100 yds+ shots (most of my shooting is 0-200 yrds.) I chose the Accupoint 1-4 with Larue mount and Magpul fold down backup sites http://www.laruetactical.com/trijicon-accupoint-1-4x24-30mm-riflescope-german-4-crosshair-w-larue-tactical-lt-104-30
Couldn't be happier; I dial it down to 1X for close-in home defense "green dot" readiness but find I crank it back over to 4X for any distance shooting. I also have a slight astigmatism and have to squint my non-dominant eye to get a clear image with a RDS but the Accupoint is very clear. BTW, the guys at Larue were top notch to deal with; even ended up getting a weapon light from them too.
Is the front sight base visible through the optic? I've read so many threads I seem to remember it is at least at 1 power, but maybe I've forgotten.
If it is visible, is it very distracting or does it help you index the reticle?
Crow Hunter
10-26-11, 10:41
Excellent post, JChops. You confirmed my hopes and didn't add any new worries.
Are there other mounting options? Also, you don't mention it, but how much of the fixed front sight assembly is visible through the TA44? I read a thread or two where this was touched on and using the TA60 mounting base seems to be the best bet here, but may mount the optic too high for some (this is what I inferred).
Thoughts?
I don't advise using the TA60 mount. That is what I had on the TA33 and I didn't like it at all. It was too tall to get a good cheek weld in prone and I would get a half black/all black view through the optic (with the TA33 anyway).
You won't be able to use your BUIS through the optic (Like you can with a RDS), so you will have to be able to get it off fast if it goes down. The TA60 is not a quick release mount. Especially if you torque it down good.
I would go with Larue.
Doc Safari
10-26-11, 10:46
I know it's sacrilege to even consider mounting something on the carry handle if the handle is detachable.....but....I noticed the mini ACOG's come with that mount. :D
Crow Hunter
10-26-11, 10:54
I know it's sacrilege to even consider mounting something on the carry handle if the handle is detachable.....but....I noticed the mini ACOG's come with that mount. :D
If you can deal with the offset, it will work.
I did a clone once of the Delta HBAR (the one I drooled over in Terminator 2)
It didn't work out so well. The cheek piece got in the way of the charging handle and the offset was tremendous. Seems like it was almost 4 inches, but it has been a while since I did that. I sighted it in. And then broke it down and sold it for parts. I disliked it that much.
I get annoyed at high offsets though.
Maybe it would work for you.
Just wanted to chime in and confirms what JChops says about the 1.5X compact ACOG. I have been running a TA45-2 (amber triangle) on top of an A1 handle (I prefer them) since 2006. Most of my shooting with my M4gery is under 200 yards and the bulk of that at 100 and under on the timer. The slight magnification is not noticeable right down to whites-of-their-eyes distance, and does help a bit at distances. The sight is as fast as I will ever be, and I still do okay. I'm a big believer in "less is more" and I love that little 1.5 x 24 sight. It really is a different breed of cat than the much busier and somewhat larger TA33-9 I run on my M1A. Loaded out the whole thing comes in at about 13 pounds, and I'm no kid anymore.
If the TA44SG-10 had been around when I got my first ACOG I might well have gone for that; but the TA45 is no slouch a-tall.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 13:03
Well, I ordered the TA44SG10. I plan to use the carry handle mount as a guide to which base I think I need (TA60 or LT105) before I order that. I seem to remember looking through a carry-handle mounted ACOG several months ago and the extra height was manageable, but that's why I'm doing this in steps. When the base is $90-95 bucks all by itself, I'd rather do that once and only once.
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 13:13
I know it's sacrilege to even consider mounting something on the carry handle if the handle is detachable.....but....I noticed the mini ACOG's come with that mount. :D
I know you aren't going to listen, but carry-handle mounts suck the hind tit on many levels. I highly recommend getting a real mount.
If I had one on hand I would send you one for free out of the kindness of heart; that's how much I hate the damn things and pity those that are forced to use them.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 13:19
I know you aren't going to listen, but carry-handle mounts suck the hind tit on many levels. I highly recommend getting a real mount.
If I had one on hand I would send you one for free out of the kindness of heart; that's how much I hate the damn things and pity those that are forced to use them.
Ha! Thanks for the offer...
I will ditch the carry handle, I promise! LOL! :D
I'm just going to use the carry handle as a reference to help me decide what height I need for the base. This is one of those things it's hard to gauge just looking at pics on the internet.
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 13:25
Ha! Thanks for the offer...
I will ditch the carry handle, I promise! LOL! :D
I'm just going to use the carry handle as a reference to help me decide what height I need for the base. This is one of those things it's hard to gauge just looking at pics on the internet.
Pretty much all the mini COG mounts are the same height, so the best bet is to just pick one from a good manufacturer and loctite it on.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 13:27
Found this on TOS. Usually won't post threads from there but there is some good info here along with some good comparative pics.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_18/471492_Aimpoint_Micro_T_1_versus_ACOG_TA44S_series_for_CQB_SBR_Pistol_application.html
Interesting pics. I wish he had lined up the sights a little better side-by-side, but I'm interpreting this as the LaRue mount under the ACOG doesn't quite equal the height of the one for the Aimpoint. You guys seeing it the same way? That brings up the obvious question as to where the TA60 mount would line up.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 13:27
Pretty much all the mini COG mounts are the same height, so the best bet is to just pick one from a good manufacturer and loctite it on.
Okay, did I misinterpret something or isn't the TA60 slightly taller than the LT105?
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 13:35
Don't use the Trijicon thumb-screw mounts. The only mount from Trijicon I recommend is the one that is made by Bobro, but as far as I know it is only offered for the larger COGs.
ADM and LaRue both have good bases, and the minimal difference in height between the Tj and the LaRue is inconsequential after a few dozen presentations, and either will be infinitely better than a carry handle mount height.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 14:15
This thread has a poster named "Policetacteam" who states that Bobro is working on a mini-mount, to be out soon.
http://www.ar15.com/mobile/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=549484
I can't vouch for the accuracy of that claim, obviously.
How about the American Defense mount? How is it?
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/American-Defense-AD-B2-Base-p/ad%20b2%20base.htm
EDITED TO ADD: I mean how does the height compare?
EDITED TO ADD: Here's an old thread with some good pics of the height of the LaRue.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=9672
I'm not finding any good pics on the height of the American Defense as it looks mounted.
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 14:54
Both the LaRue and ADM put regular ACOGs at a wholly acceptable height. If there is any difference between the two, I didn't notice.
Personally, I like LaRue over ADM with ACOG mounts, but if price is a factor, just go with the ADM and call it good.
Really, a few thousandths of an inch difference in height is the least important factor in your optics solution.
Doc Safari
10-27-11, 16:28
Damn it! SWFA just informed me that it's backordered and they don't have an estimated lead time. According to the salesman, Trijicon sends them as they are available, could be two weeks or two months. And that after I carefully searched to avoid any vendor that listed them as backordered on their website. :mad:
Maybe I'll buy an Eotech 512 just as a range toy in the meantime (just because it's about the least expensive so-called "quality" optic).
Sucks that I may be stuck with iron sights for a while. :mad:
Singlestack Wonder
10-27-11, 21:32
Damn it! SWFA just informed me that it's backordered and they don't have an estimated lead time. According to the salesman, Trijicon sends them as they are available, could be two weeks or two months. And that after I carefully searched to avoid any vendor that listed them as backordered on their website. :mad:
Maybe I'll buy an Eotech 512 just as a range toy in the meantime (just because it's about the least expensive so-called "quality" optic).
Sucks that I may be stuck with iron sights for a while. :mad:
Brownells has TA44SR-10's in stock.
https://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=27477/avs%7CManufacturer_1=TRIJICON/Product/ACOG-SCOPE-WITH-RED-CIRCLE-DOT-RETICLE
QuietShootr
10-27-11, 21:36
What's the appropriate ADM mount for a TA11?
militarymoron
10-27-11, 22:10
here are a couple of good threads on the TA44 ACOGs:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44049
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39478&page=2
Doc Safari
10-28-11, 09:48
Thanks to a heads up from member Don Robison I canceled with SWFA and reordered from this place at a substantial discount:
http://www.red-dot-scopes.com/trijicon-acog-red-dot-scope-advanced-combat-optical-gunsight-1-5x16-ta44s.html
Singlestack Wonder
10-28-11, 10:11
Thanks to a heads up from member Don Robison I canceled with SWFA and reordered from this place at a substantial discount:
http://www.red-dot-scopes.com/trijicon-acog-red-dot-scope-advanced-combat-optical-gunsight-1-5x16-ta44s.html
That is a great price! Brownells best price is $813.
I have always wanted to find a beat to shit TA47 and then start swapping prisms. I hear you can put any prism in another ACOG, including the BDC, and have it work. There is something about a 2x ACOG with a red horse shoe and a 600 meter BDC just screams secks to me.
Failure2Stop
10-28-11, 11:18
I have always wanted to find a beat to shit TA47 and then start swapping prisms. I hear you can put any prism in another ACOG, including the BDC, and have it work.
That's odd, who told you that?
I was told the exact opposite, that each prism/reticle housing had to be specifically designed for each different COG.
I don't have any experience actually swapping internals out of COGs, so take it for what it's worth.
That's odd, who told you that?
I was told the exact opposite, that each prism/reticle housing had to be specifically designed for each different COG.
I don't have any experience actually swapping internals out of COGs, so take it for what it's worth.
I don't have any exp with changing prisms either, but here is an email from a Trij rep from a while ago. I just sent them an email about this exact question. Here is the email from about a year ago.
To have your ACOG repaired, please visit the following link: http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/suppor...horization.php and just follow the instructions. If the repair is not covered under the warranty, you will be notified of the cost before any repairs are made.
Changing the prism costs about $250. The reticle is part of the prism, so you could pick any available reticle in and available color.
V/R,
Bill Fairfax
Operations Coordinator
Trijicon, Inc.
F2S, seems you are right. I was asking about switching a TA33 prism for a TA33 prism in the original question.
Dear Jeremy,
Thank you for your interest in Trijicon products. Normally, if the optic runs in the same family such as the 4x32 any reticle can be changed out within that family. The TA33 prism can’t be placed into the TA47 body due to the size. If we can assist you further please feel free to contact us.
Sincerely,
Dawn Kibler | Customer Service Representative
Phone (248)960-7700 Ext.151
Fax (248)960-7725 | P.O. Box 930059
49385 Shafer Ave. | Wixom, MI 48393
dkibler@trijicon.com | www.trijicon.com
Trijicon® Brilliant Aiming Solutions™
Doc Safari
11-01-11, 16:09
Thanks to a heads up from member Don Robison I canceled with SWFA and reordered from this place at a substantial discount:
http://www.red-dot-scopes.com/trijicon-acog-red-dot-scope-advanced-combat-optical-gunsight-1-5x16-ta44s.html
I got it just now, literally two days after ordering it.
I like the daytime reticle. For shits and giggles I took it into an interior bathroom that's pitch black. The nighttime reticle is not quite as bright or distinct as I'd hoped, but it's usable. I plan to use it in conjunction with Surefire G2 at night anyway, so the bright white light will probably make the reticle black.
On the whole, I think it's a neat little compact sight.
EDITED TO ADD: I took it into a pitch black room again and it's actually pretty good. It must not have been dark enough in that first room.
Doc Safari
11-01-11, 22:00
Well, I've had some time to mess with it now. I mounted it on the carry handle for reference just like I said I would, and it was immediately obvious that mounting method isn't going to work. It makes the optic too far forward and too high for a comfortable cheek weld. The eyepiece end of the optic seems to need to be mounted about where the rear sight is and at roughly the same height.
Bye bye carrying handle.
I think I may be able to get a TA60 mount cheap from someone who owns one, so I may go that route for now.
The 1.5X ACOG has me interested as well. I want the speed of a RDS, or close, yet without the batteries, blue tint, and even though I have no vision problems, the ACOG reticles just seem so much crisper. The dot is only round in an Aimpoint when I look AT IT, and that's not the right way to do things.
-When I look through my TA-11F with both eyes, then close my non-dominant, the reticle shifts about 6" diagonally toward the bottom-right. Does the 1.5X ACOG suffer this shift as well? The Aimpoint doesn't for me.
-When the reticle washes out, are you left with a black etched glass like in every other ACOG?
-Can a mini-glow stick be attached to the fiber optic for use behind a white light at night if you are planning on doing a night shoot, say, hog hunting, etc. where such is legal?
-Does it suck up light like my TA-11F and make things look brighter through it than through the naked eye on a moon-lit night?
Failure2Stop
11-03-11, 11:01
-Can a mini-glow stick be attached to the fiber optic for use behind a white light at night if you are planning on doing a night shoot, say, hog hunting, etc. where such is legal?
Yes.
You can also take a cheap little LED light and stick it on top of the fiber optic tube. Some (like the Energizer one) have a decent sized click-on button, which is pretty easy to use. Battery life isn't anywhere near that of an Aimpoint or even EoTech, and won't have the ability to rapidly adjust light level (other than high/low) but it is a solution. Careful taping to permit the right amount of light into the fiber optic is necessary, as well as to position the light properly.
lethal dose
11-03-11, 11:12
doc, could you inform us as to the year of mfg on your sight. i've heard of some retailers selling OLD new trijicon products at a discounted price. was wondering because of concern over the lifespan of the tritium lamp.
Well, I've had some time to mess with it now. I mounted it on the carry handle for reference just like I said I would, and it was immediately obvious that mounting method isn't going to work. It makes the optic too far forward and too high for a comfortable cheek weld. The eyepiece end of the optic seems to need to be mounted about where the rear sight is and at roughly the same height.
Bye bye carrying handle.
I think I may be able to get a TA60 mount cheap from someone who owns one, so I may go that route for now.
Doc Safari
11-03-11, 11:18
doc, could you inform us as to the year of mfg on your sight. i've heard of some retailers selling OLD new trijicon products at a discounted price. was wondering because of concern over the lifespan of the tritium lamp.
How do I tell how old it is?
IIRC the paperwork in the sight says they guarantee it for 15 years so if I'm down to 10 or so I still consider that GTG.
I actually bought it without considering the night portion of the reticle. I figured when using it in conjunction with a white light the reticle will be dark at night anyway.
What does one do when the tritium goes out? Send it back to Trijicon for a rebuild? I've never kept a gun for 15 years so I never worried about such things...LOL.
Mini chem lights for fishing with electrical tape work okay too. Just tape it to the fiber optic rod and crack it with your finger tip if you need it.
Personally, I dont use it, but it works pretty well. The mini chem light glow from under the tape is not obnoxious.
Do the ta44 and other mini acogs have the shift in poa that my ta11 exhibits when I go from two eyes open to one eye open?
Magic_Salad0892
11-04-11, 05:57
I have decided against a 1-4X variable, and am getting one of these to test out, with an ADM mount.
For the time being. I'll add a 3.5X COG to the stable later. Or Elcan DR.
The 1.5x16S model, with green reticle is what I'm ordering.
Gonna fill out the order form tomorrow. If i like it, I'll put it on my other guns.
1.5X optic with 600m BDC would be sweet. BTW.
Doc Safari
11-04-11, 08:54
Just an update on the 'how old is it' question, I looked over the sight itself, the box label, and the warranty card and I did not see anything remotely indicating when it was made. Sometimes manufacturers bury the date of manufacture in the serial number but this seems not to be the case either.
Taprackngo
11-04-11, 12:07
One thing to consider that I have not heard mentioned yet is if you plan to mount a PVS-14 for any reason I don't believe they will work well behind the Acog. I have one mounted behind my T1 and it works great.
Just an update on the 'how old is it' question, I looked over the sight itself, the box label, and the warranty card and I did not see anything remotely indicating when it was made. Sometimes manufacturers bury the date of manufacture in the serial number but this seems not to be the case either.
What is the first digit of your serial number? It should be 5-digits.
If it's a 4xxxx or 5xxxx it is pretty damn new.
Doc Safari
11-04-11, 14:22
What is the first digit of your serial number? It should be 5-digits.
If it's a 4xxxx or 5xxxx it is pretty damn new.
The first digit is five. :neo:
TA31F-RMR. Pricy but gives you the best of both worlds.
Magic_Salad0892
11-04-11, 15:36
TA31F-RMR. Pricy but gives you the best of both worlds.
I had an TA31ECOS-G model and I hated that setup so bad.
Worse $2k I ever spent. Once I sold the RMR I at least had a good ACOG to use.
Served me well for a while. Glad I got rid of it though.
However, I can't wait for my new 'COG to get here.
Doc Safari
11-04-11, 15:55
Worse $2k I ever spent.
I just can't see spending that much when there are so many models at a lot lower price than that.
I got the TA44 because it's under $1,000, it's about the same size as an Aimpoint T1 without the battery requirement, and you can choose your reticle color.
I just can't see spending that much when there are so many models at a lot lower price than that.
I got the TA44 because it's under $1,000, it's about the same size as an Aimpoint T1 without the battery requirement, and you can choose your reticle color.
Have you noticed reticle (POA) shift between 1 eye only, and both eyes open?
Magic_Salad0892
11-05-11, 00:35
I just can't see spending that much when there are so many models at a lot lower price than that.
It wasn't one of my brightest moments.
For the time being. I'll add a 3.5X COG to the stable later. Or Elcan DR.
.
I have an Elcan DR 1-4. It is excellent, but heavy.
I really like my TA44SG-10. Finally been using it more this year in it's intended role and it's been great.
I have a bad astigmatism in my right eye and, while I can and do use a RDS, lighting has to be about perfect otherwise the red dot is very distorted. Not so with the green reticle on the ACOG. The green is clear and bright.
Overall, very happy with it. YMMV.
Oh, as for the question about reticle shift between one eye open and two eyes open, I do not encounter that issue.
Magic_Salad0892
11-05-11, 17:39
I have an Elcan DR 1-4. It is excellent, but heavy.
I plan to acquire the 1.5-6X version once other niches have been filled.
Currently a CQB optic is what I'm after.
Should be here in a few days. Then I'll see how much I like it.
I plan to acquire the 1.5-6X version once other niches have been filled.
Currently a CQB optic is what I'm after.
Should be here in a few days. Then I'll see how much I like it.
Yeah that Specter DR 1.5-6 is supposed to be incredible. My 1-4x is so bright at 1x I can see better through it at dusk than with my naked eye. It's not a bad CQB optic.
Magic_Salad0892
11-06-11, 01:17
Yeah that Specter DR 1.5-6 is supposed to be incredible. My 1-4x is so bright at 1x I can see better through it at dusk than with my naked eye. It's not a bad CQB optic.
I've heard mixed reports. From the amazing, to the horrific.
They do need to solve the mounting problem though. ARMS is ass.
I did a ton of research on the ARMS issue before I invested $1800 in my Elcan. I could not find any major complaints regarding the ARMS mounts on those optics. Some folks seem to need shims to get them tight on their rails, but not on mine. They may have ironed out the bugs?
Been saying for years, trijicon needs to make a 1x ACOG. Either with the TA-44SR10 reticle, or better yet the TA11J, or TA31 military style reticles. An ACOG that did 1-4x like the elcan would be tits too. I'd pay whatever they wanted to charge.
... but I'd ditch all my aimpoints for a true 1x TA44SR10's if they existed.
anyone heard any poop on this?:
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/whats_new_item.php?whats_newID=news_99
Like all technology nowdays, you can expect something dramatically better to come along in a few years.
snackgunner
11-07-11, 19:47
anyone heard any poop on this?:
https://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/whats_new_item.php?whats_newID=news_99
Like all technology nowdays, you can expect something dramatically better to come along in a few years.
Wow, Im interested.
Hopefully we really do get to see these come out in February 2012.
Magic_Salad0892
11-07-11, 23:09
Lol. According to TheFirearmBlog they'll be making battery powered ACOG sights too, for the European market.
Lol. According to TheFirearmBlog they'll be making battery powered ACOG sights too, for the European market.
What? They can't have tritium in the EU? :rolleyes:
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/10/28/trijicon-4x32-battery-acog/
What? They can't have tritium in the EU? :rolleyes:
no problem with tritium in EU as far as I know.
ACOG are rare and expensive but there're a couple of dealers over here.
I bet the problem is ITAR regulation that make the export of these scopes difficult
Huh... I would probably buy one if I had to replace my ACOG for some reason if they were sub 1k.
Failure2Stop
11-08-11, 13:15
no problem with tritium in EU as far as I know.
ACOG are rare and expensive but there're a couple of dealers over here.
I bet the problem is ITAR regulation that make the export of these scopes difficult
There are quite a few Western European nations that do not permit use of tritium, reportedly due to their radioactivity.
I had a go-round with a few different military units about this very issue with night sights for pistols.
There are quite a few Western European nations that do not permit use of tritium, reportedly due to their radioactivity.
I had a go-round with a few different military units about this very issue with night sights for pistols.
it's a shame .mil units are subjected to this kind of rules...
Doc Safari
11-17-11, 09:05
Some observations.
I finally got the TA60 mount and installed everything on the rifle.
I spent a couple of hours viewing things at various distances ranging from inside the house to outside and several hundred yards away. I had limited time to try it out in the daytime, so most of my initial impressions were after dark. Most of the distances were inside the house, or within 50 yards outside in the dark. Since they say most serious home defense encounters happen after dark, I wanted that to be the bulk of my test.
First of all the TA60 mount puts the optic at just about the right height. No worries there.
One of the reasons I chose this optic over other ACOG products is because of the supposed greater eye relief compared to other ACOGs (taking the data from the SWFA website). I can tell you that this is "myth busted". For my eyes at least, the optic wants you to shoot nose-to-charging handle, or to mount the optic in the rearmost position on the flat top upper. Of course doing that makes it impossible to mount a BUIS, so I found a workable compromise by mounting the optic rearward enough that only one slot is left on the flat top (or maybe up to the T2), and backing off the stock by one or two notches. Every other mounting method I tried left unacceptable parallax and an uncentered reticle (more on this in a minute).
My training (what little I've had) is to pull the stock all the way to the rear quickly when moving from "carry" to "battle", so finding the "second to last" notch in the receiver extension is going to take some practice.
With the tactical light on, the green reticle turns black as I expected, and inside the house is entirely usable. I ran into issues outside with some distances where the light did not penetrate thick brush, leaving the reticle partially invisible against a dark background. I want to practice with this some more before I can say this absolutely happens regularly. I was moving the muzzle around quickly to try to test rapid target acquisition, so part of this may have been me.
You can see a "ghost" image of the front sight through the optic. To me this is not too distracting because it helps you index the reticle to the same spot every time. What is distracting is that there was a very narrow window where the reticle was centered over the front sight post. I had to practice with several shooting positions to get the reticle to center over the front sight post consistently.
In short, I think I may use an RDS for everyday purposes after all. The mini ACOG just requires too many variables to be exact to get a good sight picture. I can see this optic requiring a lot of practice and/or training to be acceptable in a serious situation.
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