View Full Version : Bolt action noob help
acaixguard
10-25-11, 16:13
I am looking to get into bolt action precision shooting soon. Been shooting handguns and carbines for a few years, but unfortunately, I am almost clueless when it comes to bolt action precision rifles.
Can someone point me in the right direction to get started? I'd love to obviously get good enough and have the funds to acquire one of those nice custom rifles with high end glass one day, but I'd like to start it slow. Any suggestions as to how to get started (Remington 700 variant of some type?) and what pitfalls to avoid?
I apologize if this has been discussed before. I couldn't find too many general noob posts in my quick search of the forum. Thanks in advance!
Buy rem700 AAC edition
Throw the stock away or sell it
Buy a good fiberglass stock or chassis system
buy a seekins 20moa rail
buy badger rings
buy vortex PST 4-16 mil/mil/ffp from Liberty Optics
Clamp it all together.
Then buy the best ammo you can afford, or buy reloading gear.
Shoot it until the barrel is worn out.
acaixguard
10-25-11, 17:08
Thanks for the tips. Do you mean this one?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical-aac-sd.aspx
Any reason why the AAC version? And also, is it not worth it to get the 700P edition?
Thanks again!
SeriousStudent
10-25-11, 17:53
Buy rem700 AAC edition
Throw the stock away or sell it
Buy a good fiberglass stock or chassis system
buy a seekins 20moa rail
buy badger rings
buy vortex PST 4-16 mil/mil/ffp from Liberty Optics
Clamp it all together.
Then buy the best ammo you can afford, or buy reloading gear.
Shoot it until the barrel is worn out.
Do you have a suggested replacement for the factory X-Mark trigger? I have read your posts regarding it's lack of suitability.
Thanks.
Buy rem700 AAC edition
Throw the stock away or sell it
Buy a good fiberglass stock or chassis system
buy a seekins 20moa rail
buy badger rings
buy vortex PST 4-16 mil/mil/ffp from Liberty Optics
Clamp it all together.
Then buy the best ammo you can afford, or buy reloading gear.
Shoot it until the barrel is worn out.
I'll definitely be following this thread closely. I ordered my first bolt gun recently with the desire to get into precision shooting. I ordered the Remington 700 AAC-SD (as mentioned above and in a few other threads) and should be here any day now. Next will be a scope and bases/rings and then shoot it while I evaluate (actually save for) what I need to change out after that.
I almost went with a 700 SPS Tactical, which was a little less than the 700 AAC. But I like that the barrel is a 1:10 and comes threaded. I also looked into a Savage 10 FCP, but they weren't readily available locally.
For scopes, I'll looking anywhere from Leupold VX-II to Mark 4, Nikon Monarch and Nightforce. I think Nightforce is out of my price range for the time being, but one can always hope.
If I were you I wouldn't rule out buying "used". You can usually find a 700 of some variety that is ready to rock & roll w/ a good base, stock, sometimes even a bipod. They generally go for less than the seller has into it. Check the equip exchange here, other sites, or even an auction site. People are dumping things pretty cheap lately. Just a thought.
Thanks for the tips. Do you mean this one?
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical-aac-sd.aspx
Any reason why the AAC version? And also, is it not worth it to get the 700P edition?
Thanks again!
That's the one. The AAC has a 1:10 twist and barrel is threaded for suppressor or muzzle brake.
The 700P is a nice rifle, but you'd be better served to build what you want, using the 700 AAC as a starting point.
For replacement trigger: Timney 510. Accept no substitutes.
For scopes, I'll looking anywhere from Leupold VX-II to Mark 4, Nikon Monarch and Nightforce. I think Nightforce is out of my price range for the time being, but one can always hope.
Why isn't vortex in the list? You can get a vortex 4-16 PST mil/mil/ffp from liberty optics for under $800. It has a great illuminated reticle, exposed turrets with great clicks, zero stop, excellent glass, great warranty, and tracks good. What more could you want for an entry level scope?
I have to agree with orkan. I just jumped in and bought a 700 sps tactical. Not too bad. I had one precision classs under my belt but didn't have my own rifle. replaced the stock and trigger.
We've worked ourselves out to 1000 yards over the last few months.
The sky is the limit on how much you can spend on precision gun stuff. But the Rem 700 is a solid starting point.
What would you suggest as a lightweight replacement stock for around $400-600?
What would you suggest as a lightweight replacement stock for around $400-600?
HS Precision is about the only solid performer you'll find in that price point. Unless you can pick up a used manners or mcmillan off classifieds somewhere. Remember you'll have to get it bedded too, so set aside about $150 for that.
Why isn't vortex in the list? You can get a vortex 4-16 PST mil/mil/ffp from liberty optics for under $800. It has a great illuminated reticle, exposed turrets with great clicks, zero stop, excellent glass, great warranty, and tracks good. What more could you want for an entry level scope?
The vortex pst is on the short list for my next scope. It's available at price point that is reasonable with features that are hard to touch, without being well past 1k.
Why isn't vortex in the list? You can get a vortex 4-16 PST mil/mil/ffp from liberty optics for under $800. It has a great illuminated reticle, exposed turrets with great clicks, zero stop, excellent glass, great warranty, and tracks good. What more could you want for an entry level scope?
I am still considering the Vortex Viper PST scopes. Initially, I was looking at the 6-24x models and they were going for $750-$900. The question in my mind was at what price point do I just bite the bullet at just save for the Nightforce and I had arbitrarily set that at around $600, or about 1/3 the cost of the Nightforce, so that limited the scope options to the Nikon Buckmaster & Monarch series and Leupold VX-II. The thought was to go for the less expensive scope for now, learn on it and see what I like and don't like and have more money to spend on ammo. That would get me up and running quicker. Yeah, I would likely end up buying another scope later on, but I would have something to base my future purchase on. If I went with the Nightforce straight away, I'd be waiting for a while longer to save for the scope and ammo and MAYBE it wouldn't be what I find that I really wanted/liked. While I am pretty sure it will be MUCH MORE than good enough for me, the Nightforce scopes carry a big price tag.
Now I am looking at going with something in the 4-16x range and the Vortex Viper PST is going for around $700. The FFP version is going for $849. I haven't decided yet, but I'm thinking of just going with the base SFP version for now. That is unless you guys have strong advice otherwise.
I checked out a Konuspro M30 scope at a local shop over the weekend and at around $350, and honestly I am sort of thinking of giving it a shot. It got an ok review on one of the sniper forums. Not as good a review as the Vortex Viper PST, but it is 1/3 the price. While they didn't give it a full thumbs up, they didn't trash it either.
The vortex pst is on the short list for my next scope. It's available at price point that is reasonable with features that are hard to touch, without being well past 1k.
Yeah, the more I look at the Vortex scopes and comes with a lot of features that I like. 75 MOA adjustment, illuminated reticle, MOA/MRAD reticle similar to the NP-R1, etc.
Your pricing is high. You NEED to call Scott @ Liberty Optics.
I almost went with a 700 SPS Tactical, which was a little less than the 700 AAC.
They are both SPS Tacticals, except one is the ACC edition more fully known as the SPS Tactical AAC-SD. The ACC edition is the way to go, between the 2, IMO.
Buy rem700 AAC edition
Throw the stock away or sell it
Buy a good fiberglass stock or chassis system
buy a seekins 20moa rail
buy badger rings
buy vortex PST 4-16 mil/mil/ffp from Liberty Optics
Clamp it all together.
Then buy the best ammo you can afford, or buy reloading gear.
Shoot it until the barrel is worn out.
All good advice, acaixguard, or you can go to www.snipercentral.com or www.snipershide.com and read all of the stickies like we suggest noobs here do.
And if you don't want to try putting it together yourself, you can buy one of Mel's great starter packages: http://www.snipercentral.com/scriflepackages.phtml
They are both SPS Tacticals, except one is the ACC edition more fully known as the SPS Tactical AAC-SD. The ACC edition is the way to go, between the 2, IMO.
I did order the 700 SPS Tactical AAC-SD. Should be here any day now. I was getting lazy and figured just cut it off to 700 AAC and you guys would know what I meant.
I like that the AAC-SD version is 1:10 and could handle the heavier bullets. The 700 SPS Tactical with the 1:12 probably would've probably been just fine though.
The 700 SPS Tactical with the 1:12 probably would've probably been just fine though.
Yeah. Even 180 VLDs should run in 1/12... at least according to the box they come in.
Yeah. Even 180 VLDs should run in 1/12... at least according to the box they come in.
I could be wrong, but I believe most, if not all, of the Remington 700 308s are 1:12 except for the AAC-SD, which, as has already been stated, is 1:10, and models with the 5R barrel, which are 1:11.25.
Savage 308 bolts, on the other hand, are mostly, if not all, 1:10.
I was getting ready to buy a AAC-SD when I ran into a sweet deal on a 700P cut to 20" and threaded in an adjustable McMillan stock, so I ended up ith a 1:12. It is a great shooter (better than me) but I sometimes wonder if I should have gone the AAC-SD route.
Savage 308 bolts, on the other hand, are mostly, if not all, 1:10.
Nothing brings a smile to orkan's face like throwing the bolt on a Savage!..
... well... maybe the accutrigger comes close!:cool:
I could be wrong, but I believe most, if not all, of the Remington 700 308s are 1:12 except for the AAC-SD, which, as has already been stated, is 1:10, and models with the 5R barrel, which are 1:11.25.
Savage 308 bolts, on the other hand, are mostly, if not all, 1:10.
I was getting ready to buy a AAC-SD when I ran into a sweet deal on a 700P cut to 20" and threaded in an adjustable McMillan stock, so I ended up ith a 1:12. It is a great shooter (better than me) but I sometimes wonder if I should have gone the AAC-SD route.
A local shop has/had the 700 Milspec 5r with SS barrel in stock. It looked nice with the SS barrel, but it was pretty heavy. Something like 8.5 lbs or so. Not that the extra weight would matter shooting from a bench, but I was just surprised at how heavy it was. The Milspec 5r was also almost twice the price of the AAC-SD version, so I just went with the more basic model and figure I could mod it as I go.
The Milspec 5r was also almost twice the price of the AAC-SD version, so I just went with the more basic model and figure I could mod it as I go.
You did good. Let us know how it shoots. BTW, I have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16 FFP that I bought from Scott at Liberty Optics and love it. Do what Orkan said and call Scott. Tell him we sent you. He is one of the good guys.
SeriousStudent
10-26-11, 19:42
.....
I ordered the Remington 700 AAC-SD (as mentioned above and in a few other threads) and should be here any day now.
........
Do you mind if I ask where you ordered it from? I cannot find one locally.
Do you mind if I ask where you ordered it from? I cannot find one locally.
I ordered mine through a local Sports Authority. They said that they can special order pretty much any model of the brands that they normally carry (Remington, Savage, Benelli, etc.). The salesperson had a catalog from what looked like a regional distributor, but I don't remember who it was or where. I can certainly ask the next time I'm there if you'd like. The pricing was pretty good. A little less than MSRP, which is great for where I live.
SeriousStudent
10-26-11, 20:38
Ah, thanks very much.
I'm in a pretty big city in Texas. I thought I would be able to buy one off the rack. But it looks like I'm going to order one as well.
The good news is that there is a Sports Authority less than a dozen miles from Casa Serious. I'll wander by there this weekend. Thanks again for the response. I think we will be comparing notes on our builds. :)
If I were you I wouldn't rule out buying "used". You can usually find a 700 of some variety that is ready to rock & roll w/ a good base, stock, sometimes even a bipod. They generally go for less than the seller has into it. Check the equip exchange here, other sites, or even an auction site. People are dumping things pretty cheap lately. Just a thought.
This is a good idea. I recently picked up an unfired Remington 700 LTR with a Harris bipod, GG&G base, Bushnell Elite 3200 10x scope, a metal case and 60 rounds of ammo for 900 bucks.
Im not saying you should wait for a good deal to pop up, but check around before you buy to see if there are any out there.
I recently picked up an unfired Remington 700 LTR with a Harris bipod, GG&G base, Bushnell Elite 3200 10x scope, a metal case and 60 rounds of ammo for 900 bucks.
Sweet!
Your pricing is high. You NEED to call Scott @ Liberty Optics.
I was browswing through Liberty Optic's website last night (searching for mounts and rings that they carry to see if they have some that I could include with my scope order) and the Vortex PST scopes are out of stock effective 10/28. I guess I'll have to check back with them from time to time. I may also just give him a call to see what's up.
Don't rely on the website. You need to call him to really get the skinny.
callen3615
10-31-11, 17:32
remington 700s are your best bets. The heavier the barrel the better. their sps v and sps tactical rifles are the shiz in new stocks. Oh and make sure to save money for good glass.
remington 700s are your best bets. The heavier the barrel the better. their sps v and sps tactical rifles are the shiz in new stocks. Oh and make sure to save money for good glass.
And new triggers. I'm pleased with my SPS Tactical for my first Precision type bolt gun.
By the time I wear out this barrel, I'll know if I want to get a Surgeon action and have my own built.
Don't rely on the website. You need to call him to really get the skinny.
I called Scott today and he is out of the Vortex Viper PST and said that he hopes to have them back in by mid-December sometime and possibly sooner. My backup plan was the regular Viper (non-PST) model and he was out of those as well. Seems like he either had a run on inventory or trouble getting backstock since he was even out of the Seekins bases and rings that I was also interested in including in my order.
I asked him about some other options that he had in stock, or will have in stock shortly. For a FFP scope, he recommended a Weaver Tactical. For a SFP scope, which I am leaning towards, he recommended a Sightron SIII Long Range. I'll have to do some research on those. Any inside on those scopes?
Don't mean to totally threadhack. Including this here as maybe the information will help the OP. With regards to FFP and SFP, I typically will be shooting at static targets of known range. I won't be using this rifle for hunting or competitions where I need to range the targets, at least not for now. So I am thinking that a SFP will suit me well for now as it won't obscure the targets at higher magnification. Any feedback on that?
I'll probably wait until the Viper PST's come in. That will give me more time to save up as the PST's are a little on the high side for my price range. I'll shoot him an email to put me on a backorder for the Viper PST scope though.
Thank you for the tip!
So I am thinking that a SFP will suit me well for now as it won't obscure the targets at higher magnification.
Ok... stop right there. FFP reticles do NOT obscure the target on high magnification. Get that in your head, and IGNORE where ever you heard otherwise. That is a blanket statement that doesn't apply to SFP any more than it applies to FFP.
Proof?
Here's a thick ffp reticle. That house is a MILE away. Tell me you couldn't quarter an IPSC standing in that doorway.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/optics/razor/IMG_3272.JPG
This is a thin FFP reticle. That IPSC target is a thousand yards out. It is easy to quarter the 6x6" head on that target.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/guns/range_report/2010/IMG_4168.JPG
Choose whatever you are comfortable with... but for god's sake don't believe or propagate false information.
Ok... stop right there. FFP reticles do NOT obscure the target on high magnification. Get that in your head, and IGNORE where ever you heard otherwise. That is a blanket statement that doesn't apply to SFP any more than it applies to FFP.
Proof?
Here's a thick ffp reticle. That house is a MILE away. Tell me you couldn't quarter an IPSC standing in that doorway.
This is a thin FFP reticle. That IPSC target is a thousand yards out. It is easy to quarter the 6x6" head on that target.
Choose whatever you are comfortable with... but for god's sake don't believe or propagate false information.
Ahh, thank you! My apologies. Never want to spread misinformation around! That was just what I've read online and heard at the range, stuff like a 1 MOA dot will be this size and such distance. Thank you for the clarification.
I've been searching all over for examples comparing FFP and SFP reticles. I've only seen a few youtube videos where it zooms in with what looks like a thick FFP reticle and the lines almost cover the target at high maginification. But nothing is said about what scope, magnification range, or size of the target. None of the shops around here seem to stock FFP scopes, so I haven't had a chance to see for myself.
Is the pic with the house your Viper PST FFP mil/mil? What magnification level is it on in the pic? I won't be shooting anywhere near a mile (1760 yards), or at least any time soon. But good visual reference.
What scope is that in your second pic? The combination of dots and hashes seems interesting. I kind of like the Viper PST reticle because of the hashes. Similar to the Nightforce NP-R1 reticle.
Thanks again for your feedback.
The first scope is a vortex razor 5-20, the second scope is a premier 5-25.
http://www.primalrights.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1522
There's a hardcore no-punches-pulled write up I did about FFP reticles and the myths surrounding them.
I intend to do a much more professional comparison in a future article.
It's no surprise that your local shops don't stock FFP or know anything about them. Only the people that really intend to get first round hits on target use them. Hunters... primarily shoot inside of 300yds in which case reticle holds are pretty much pointless. Doesn't stop me from using FFP on EVERY hunting rifle I own though. It's especially helpful when killing coyotes.
http://www.gregd.net/pics/coyote_hunting/coyotes_2011/IMG_5096.JPG
[QUOTE=orkan;1129330]Buy rem700 AAC edition
Throw the stock away or sell it
Buy a good fiberglass stock or chassis systemQUOTE]
Why dont you like the stock?
I dont own one so Im not defending.
Just curious.
I thought Hogue stocks were GTG
They are junk. Some work, some don't. They flex like crazy. I had one sps tac in 223 that would shift point of impact as much as 6" at 100yds depending on slight pressure variations on the bipod. Replaced that stock with a HS precision on the same rifle, and it shot 3/4 moa.
I had a 22-250 with the remmy plastic tupperware stock and it would do the same thing. POI would shift as much as 7 inches at 100yds. Put an HS precision on there and it turned into a 1/2 moa coyote slaying machine.
Cheap stocks are worthless when you want repeatable POI from session to session.
Why dont you like the stock?
I dont own one so Im not defending.
Just curious.
I thought Hogue stocks were GTG
When you pop the hogue off an look at it compared to an HS Precision.... the hogue is a joke.
When you pop the hogue off an look at it compared to an HS Precision.... the hogue is a joke.
... and hs precision is below manners and mcmillan on the totem!
... and hs precision is below manners and mcmillan on the totem!
I've gathered as much. But HS was a good match for my Factory gun.
My approach is to shoot this factory gun into the ground and decide if I want to go big time and build something good..... or just rebarrel the gun when the time comes and just continue to tinker.
I was only pointing out that HS is volumes above the factory stock... so the mcmillan and manners are REALLY a jump. :)
Absolutely. I think going with a mcmillan on my factory remmy would have been "overstocking" it.
Absolutely. I think going with a mcmillan on my factory remmy would have been "overstocking" it.
Impossible to over-stock. That's like having too much sex or too much money!
So running a Manners under a Savage wouldn't be overstocking? :p
They are junk. Some work, some don't. They flex like crazy. I had one sps tac in 223 that would shift point of impact as much as 6" at 100yds depending on slight pressure variations on the bipod. Replaced that stock with a HS precision on the same rifle, and it shot 3/4 moa.
I had a 22-250 with the remmy plastic tupperware stock and it would do the same thing. POI would shift as much as 7 inches at 100yds. .
Cool thanks for the info. And Mark.
Im wanting to get the SPS Tac. in .308...Those stocks are GTG you said?
I was thinking of selling my Rem 700 -06 to fund it.
Is it worth it?
So running a Manners under a Savage wouldn't be overstocking? :p
Taping a ****n broom handle to a savage would be overstocking.
lol
J/K
The HS stock? Yeah. I'm good with mine. I got the Police model from Brownells.
As far as the gun? I can't make a good recommendation. Depends what you want to do.
I like mine... but If I had it to do all over again, I might get one with a threaded barrel.
Eff me! ORKAN!
We went and saw a bolt gun builder last night. A guy that's worked for McMillan and stuff. Been doing this stuff for 40 plus years.
His name is on the inside of McMillan stocks... apparently it was his CNC program and it's still under his name when they run then.
In any case we went to Bolt gun school last night. It was amazing. I got to finger some McMillan stocks, Kreiger Barrels, and some custom guns.
The guy figgered out why one of Pappabears hunting guns was a scatter gun. All kinds of Factory barrel defect stories too. I'm still taking it all in.
See... unless you'd gotten to get some in your hands... you would never have guessed they were THAT much better than HS huh?
The top end of precision rifle equipment is only worth it to those that know what they are looking at. :)
The guy blew our minds. He showed us all kinds of stuff.... not theoretical chatter. Real examples in front of our eyes.
That McMillan stock with the adjustable comb fit me like a glove. I run the Karsten Kydex cheek piece. But this McMillan was a 5 star resort.
Yeah, getting to hang out and talk with a guy like that is a priceless experience.
Now you know why I pump mcmillan/manners and krieger barrels so much!
Yeah, getting to hang out and talk with a guy like that is a priceless experience.
Now you know why I pump mcmillan/manners and krieger barrels so much!
This guy should charge $40 per person for his 2 hour overview of Bolt gun info for newbies. I learned more in 2 hours than I could in 2 months of internet forums.
The forums are great, but when you have it all live in front of your eyes, it's incredible.
I got to drop a guage down a Kreiger blank with my finger on the bottom. It's so perfect that the air in the bore made it take several seconds to hit my hand.
Then we guages some dog shit barrels. AMAZING.
Then we guages some dog shit barrels.
You mean like... all factory barrels? lol
You mean like... all factory barrels? lol
C'MON! He said that about 1/100 factory barrels he sees are good.
And 1/1000 could hang with a Krieger.
I couldn't justify burning through a Krieger yet. I'm still learning. But my next barrel..... ;)
The first scope is a vortex razor 5-20, the second scope is a premier 5-25.
There's a hardcore no-punches-pulled write up I did about FFP reticles and the myths surrounding them.
I intend to do a much more professional comparison in a future article.
It's no surprise that your local shops don't stock FFP or know anything about them. Only the people that really intend to get first round hits on target use them. Hunters... primarily shoot inside of 300yds in which case reticle holds are pretty much pointless. Doesn't stop me from using FFP on EVERY hunting rifle I own though. It's especially helpful when killing coyotes.
Poor coyotes! Haha. I wish there were varmint hunting opportunities here. I would be sharpening my shooting and doing a landowner or farmer a service.
That was a "no-punches pulled" article, but I found it highly informative and good reading. I've actually heard quite a bit of what you mentioned in that article.
I don't envision myself hunting with this rig or hunting in general, at least any time soon. With FFP, I do like that the holds are consistent at any magnification range. It can be quite windy here all year around and the winds are usually variable and it seems like holds, rather than adjusting via turrets, would be a better method of adjusting for the wind.
I was expecting my bolt gun to come in last week, but almost a week later and still nothing. Once it finally comes in, I'm sure the urgency to get a scope will rise dramatically. Not sure if I can wait for Scott at Liberty Optics to get his stock back in. Maybe a cheaper scope, like a Viper (non-PST), Millet, etc. just to get something on there.
I intend to shoot it for a while and then look into upgrades, such as stock and trigger. I'll definitely look into the stocks that you guys have been mentioning. A guy at the range has a McMillan on his 22-250 and it's pretty sweet.
I've got a Bushnell Elite Tactical 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil illuminated that I'd sell you for $650. I've got a Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24X50 FFP mil/mil illuminated that I'd sell you for $750.
Scopes are perfect, I'm just upgrading.
I've got a Bushnell Elite Tactical 3-12X44 FFP mil/mil illuminated that I'd sell you for $650. I've got a Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24X50 FFP mil/mil illuminated that I'd sell you for $750.
Scopes are perfect, I'm just upgrading.
Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll hold out for the PST scope.
ColdDeadHands
11-05-11, 14:17
Thanks for the offer, but I think I'll hold out for the PST scope.
you won't be sorry! My buddy just got the Viper PST 4-16x50 FFP and it's a great scope. The 6-24 is back-ordered around 48 days.
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