View Full Version : 223 handload to match ACOG BDC
I have a 16" AR with a ACOG TA33GH and was shooting PRVI 62 FMJ to match the BDC...worked perfectly out to 600 yards.
Unfortunately, I cannot find 62 FMJ in component form in the quantities I would like (2-5k).
What is another load, say 55 grn, that would match? Velocity? Bullet BC?
When I called Trijicon they were useless...had no information for me. $1000 and it works with one load and the manufacturer doesn't have any other solutions. Pissed? Yes
Dont want to shoot green tip as I'm shooting steel and don't want to damage it. Also dont want to buy factory when I can make it in my garage.
I realize I could just load an accurate load and map where it impacts but I'd like to use the BDC like it is supposed to...intuitively
Thanks in advance.
Ed
Are you talking about "in stock" right now, or you can't find them at all? Because you can certainly buy 62 Gr FMJ in huge quantities from common places.
Example: If you can wait for them to get in stock, you can buy these by the 4,000.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/2586165491/armscor-bullets-22-caliber-224-diameter-62-grain-full-metal-jacket-boat-tail
stinkyDrunk
10-25-11, 19:12
Nosler makes a canelured partition tip 60 grn pill that might be close enough. Then you have to work up the load to get the velocity right. If you can do a ballistic chart for the load you're trying to match (see http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi ), you can compare it to the chart of the Nosler load and decide if the charts are close enough to do what you want.
My apologies...I should have been more clear.
This is the reticle and how it's supposed to work:
http://esheato.smugmug.com/photos/i-j59Wrbn/0/XL/i-j59Wrbn-XL.jpg
It's calibrated for M855 ammunition. So a 62 grain FMJ at (can't remember the velocity off the top of my head).
I need to handload to M855 specs so that I can use the reticle properly.
I was buying PRVI 62 FMJ (lead core, no cannelure) from Wideners. Was shooting the crap out of them from contact to 600 yards using the ACOG reticle the way it was designed.
Wideners has been out of stock for months. I call Wideners, they don't even know if they've ordered more :suicide:. I email PRVI, and get no response. They're in Croatia or Yugoslavia or something.
I can't be waiting around for months to make this happen so I'm switching bullets. Looking around at Midway and the usual haunts and I can't find 62 FMJ to load.
Sure I could load some 55s but they won't match the reticle properly...the whole point of spending a thousand bucks on an optic was to get something reliable, quick and intuitive. If I have to hold on the spaces between the hash marks, it defeats the purpose.
So, what are my options?
1. find another source of 62 FMJ...a reliable source. I don't want to have to re-work a load 6 months down the road again because the bullet isn't available any more.
2. buy 55 gr and shoot to 600 finding where they strike the target
3. Sell the ACOG
4. Buy factory ammo....(never gonna happen)
stinkydrunk, I sincerely appreciate the help, but Partitions won't work. I'm looking for lead core, 62 FMJ that I can load to M855 specs. No steel core, no partitions and sold in bulk so that I can actually use the ACOG for its intended purpose. Already familiar with JBM as I shoot my 338 to 1500 yards using their data.
Armscor would work, but it'll be 2 months before they're available. There has to be a better way.....
Thanks in advance.
Ed
mkmckinley
10-26-11, 00:05
Wideners has 62gr steel core bullets in 5000 piece bulk packs (http://wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=7237&dir=278|281|1081|1141) available with free shipping.
edit: I just read where you aren't looking for steel core.
The thing you have to keep in mind with the BDC on something like an ACOG is that even if the hash marks are perfectly calibrated you'll still be limited by your ability to judge distance. Unless you're shooting on a KD range or are using some kind of rangefinder you're going to have a hard time knowing if a target is at 450m or 575m for instance. If your loads don't match the holdovers it's not the end of the world because there's some guesswork anyway.
See above regarding Wideners.
I'm shooting on a KD range and use a rangefinder all other times. Getting an accurate range is easy.
Guesswork is exactly what I'm trying to remove from the equation by having my trajectory match the BDC.
The ACOG is not a "precision optic." The BDC is designed to increase hit probability, not shoot the wings off of flies.
You could shoot M193 instead of the M855 it's calibrated for...and the trajectory difference would be close to the accuracy potential of the round.
Obviously you are not using a 50 yard zero as shown in the below graphics, but it gives you an idea of how close the two rounds are trajectory wise.
(Graphics originally posted by user Molon on ARFCOM)...
16'' Barrel
http://www.box.net/shared/static/k1v7or2g4k.jpg
20'' Barrel
http://www.box.net/shared/static/wy10zgtck8.jpg
Also, this graphic may be helpful. Data is taken from Aberdeen Proving Grounds testing.
Obviously, the trajectories of the two rounds do not perfectly match. But, you can work around the difference pretty easily and still effectively use the ACOG BDC with some minor adjustments / practice. Obviously, this is not a perfect solution. I'm just trying to illustrate that you can shoot other loads and still be effective.
Additionally, the steel core M855 will be significantly longer than FMJ 62 grain because lead is denser than steel. The rounds have to be longer in order to weigh the same. This will also affect the external ballistics of the round. The point is that unless you're shooting actual M855, no matter what you do, there will be slight differences.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/data.jpg
mkmckinley
10-26-11, 03:35
I'm shooting on a KD range and use a rangefinder all other times. Getting an accurate range is easy.
Guesswork is exactly what I'm trying to remove from the equation by having my trajectory match the BDC.
Yeah I reread your post and saw what you're talking about: wideners is out. I would say just load 55gr and go with it. You may be able to fudge the trajectory a little by playing with your powder charge.
Shooting like you described is not using the ACOG the way it's intended anyway. It's a combat optic for extending the effective range of an M4. It's not optimal for making precise hits on KD targets. Even if you have the ammo perfectly calibrated to the stadia lines you'll still have to hold over or under the nearest line unless your target is at exactly 100,200,300,400,or 500m. If you want to be able to range and then dial or hold an exact holdover you're better off with a traditional scope with some kind of milling reticle and MIL adjustable turrets.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-26-11, 06:07
Speer makes the bullet your looking for their reloading manual states it is a copy of SS109 with out the steel core. Do you have a speer manual? The load info is on their site if not.
http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=250
The ACOG is not a "precision optic." The BDC is designed to increase hit probability, not shoot the wings off of flies.
I get that...I typically shoot steel of various sizes (12x12, 66% steel IPSC target, or a silhouette from Snipers Hide). Considering that we use the same range primarily for precision rifle and drag out the ARs occasionally for practice, we frequently shoot at the even 100 yard increments.
Your M193 charts and info were informative and helpful, so thank you.
If you want to be able to range and then dial or hold an exact holdover you're better off with a traditional scope with some kind of milling reticle and MIL adjustable turrets.
I get that too...I have other guns set up for that purpose.
As far as the Speer, they look great but I can only find them in 100 rounds boxes and nobody has them in stock anyway.
What it all boils down to, I'm looking for 62 grain FMJ with a lead core, and a BC similar to the M855 62 grain (.304 or so) so that I can use my optic as it was intended....assisting me with my holdovers thereby increasing my probability of a hit.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-26-11, 22:12
I get that...I typically shoot steel of various sizes (12x12, 66% steel IPSC target, or a silhouette from Snipers Hide). Considering that we use the same range primarily for precision rifle and drag out the ARs occasionally for practice, we frequently shoot at the even 100 yard increments.
Your M193 charts and info were informative and helpful, so thank you.
I get that too...I have other guns set up for that purpose.
As far as the Speer, they look great but I can only find them in 100 rounds boxes and nobody has them in stock anyway.
What it all boils down to, I'm looking for 62 grain FMJ with a lead core, and a BC similar to the M855 62 grain (.304 or so) so that I can use my optic as it was intended....assisting me with my holdovers thereby increasing my probability of a hit.
There is only one 62g bullet and I linked you good luck
I wouldn't load SS109s unless they were free. Even then, I'd trade or sell them.
We've had GOOD luck at our elevation using a few ACOG BDCs and 69 grain SMKs on top of 22.9 grains of H322.
That's the load we were running Pappabear's 12.5" BCM out to 700 and even a few transonic hits at 800 yards.
I wouldn't load SS109s unless they were free. Even then, I'd trade or sell them.
We've had GOOD luck at our elevation using a few ACOG BDCs and 69 grain SMKs on top of 22.9 grains of H322.
I agree about the SS109s.
I've been shooting 77 Nosler Custom Comps out of my 18" BCM upper to 1k and been doing fairly good with it.
This whole thread was about a 100 and in training and occasional distance load. Unfortunately, nobody makes the bullet I'm looking for in the quantities I'd like....I suppose I'll buy some 55s and see how they do.
....I suppose I'll buy some 55s and see how they do.
I'm a huge 55grain user... but at distance (beyond 300 or so).... they really suck.
They lose velocity very quickly and any wind at all and they're blown off target. Thus, my opinion is that a BDC reticle isn't maximized with 55s.
I know they suck, but what other option do I have?
Are you keeping your 77s supersonic to 1000?
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 12:33
Personally, I would find a round that meets my performance criteria, has a good probability of consistent supply, and I can afford to stack deep, and match my holds to it.
You can iron out a lot of the BDC issues by zeroing at 300 meters. You might not be dead on at 100 or 200, but the deviation will be slight, and you will be much closer at 4, 5, and 6.
Being intimately aware of bullet's strike at any given range within effective range in relation to sighting system is a trait of a true rifleman.
No, I drop below at 800. Doesn't seem to matter though. I'm shooting at steel 16x20 and am hitting decently (~60%)....misses aren't misses by much either. I'm happy with that as I'm using a 10x optic and usually misses are horizontal which is a function of getting the wind right....a feat unto itself here in W. Texas.
http://esheato.smugmug.com/photos/i-GrSWfw6/0/X2/i-GrSWfw6-X2.jpg
Here's the rifle:
http://esheato.smugmug.com/photos/1214419886_b33NE-L.jpg
Note: this isn't the rifle this thread is about.
No, I drop below at 800. Doesn't seem to matter though. I'm shooting at steel 16x20 and am hitting decently (~60%)....misses aren't misses by much either. I'm happy with that as I'm using a 10x optic and usually misses are horizontal which is a function of getting the wind right....a feat unto itself here in W. Texas.
That's interesting. We shot at 1000. Our target was a 36" square sheet metal piece.
We were shooting bolt 308 and throwing some hail Marys with a 12.5 ACOG'd gun and my 20" A2 iron sighted gun.
There were some key holes in the metal, but it was too hard to tell if it was a low 308 bullet that skipped in, or an unstabilized 69 gr SMK.
Our SMKs go transonic between 700-800 depending on the gun.
Very cool. Sounds like we're on the same page.
As far as keyholes go, my 77s appear to hit tip forward (small mark in the middle and round splatter mark). Albeit, the splatters marks are smaller at 1k than the closer range hits, but that's understandable.
I'm shooting AR500 so no holes in the steel to do post analysis with.
I shoot up to 1k with my 243 Ackley and 223 AR and go to 1500 (length of the property, currently looking for something larger) with my 338 Lapua.
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