View Full Version : What type of 5.56 round for a WROL situation.
.Scarecrow.
10-26-11, 12:28
I live up in Michigan and I need advise for a good self defense round for a Without Rule of Law situation. (Just in case)
Specs:
Barrel length: 14.5"
Twist: Undecided, leaning toward 1/7
range: 0-200m
I am not sure about the Mk262 77 gr because a guy on another forum had a good point about if (God forbid) you were to face someone with a chest rig that with rifle mags. A round that would penetrate that and still be effective. He said the 77 gr HP probably won't have enough penetration. What are your thoughts?
Bout 100k of .22 lr, a peice of land away from anyone else, some crops to grow, a big garden. A couple places to get water. Enough sons and brothers to make anyone who tries to steal from you a living nightmare. A river or place to set a trought line.
Thats my WROL desired situation.
Texas is right on.
But to your original question, first, a chest rig with mags is not going to stop anything rifle-related. The "guy on the other forum" is wrong.
Second, go with 1:7" twist so you can have the flexibility of using heavier rounds if you want.
MK262 is OK, but it's accurate at long range, but expensive and not in the current crop of best performers....
If money is no issue, I'd look at Barnes TSX 50gr from black hills, or something like the federal Fusion softpoints, or better yet TBBC...
If money is an issue, I'd just stick with XM193.
There's no magic bullet. Doc lays out the good stuff and info here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Failure2Stop
10-26-11, 13:49
I am not sure about the Mk262 77 gr because a guy on another forum had a good point about if (God forbid) you were to face someone with a chest rig that with rifle mags. A round that would penetrate that and still be effective. He said the 77 gr HP probably won't have enough penetration. What are your thoughts?
HAHAHAHAHA!
Mk262 will easily defeat a filled magazine and give good result on the other side.
Right now though, the barrier blind ammo as recommended by DocGKR seem to be the best overall performers:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
.Scarecrow.
10-26-11, 14:29
Texas is right on.
But to your original question, first, a chest rig with mags is not going to stop anything rifle-related. The "guy on the other forum" is wrong.
Second, go with 1:7" twist so you can have the flexibility of using heavier rounds if you want.
MK262 is OK, but it's accurate at long range, but expensive and not in the current crop of best performers....
If money is no issue, I'd look at Barnes TSX 50gr from black hills, or something like the federal Fusion softpoints, or better yet TBBC...
If money is an issue, I'd just stick with XM193.
There's no magic bullet. Doc lays out the good stuff and info here: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881
Okay, and is 50 grains really enough? Not doubting you, I even think 55 grain is light. But I honestly don't know. I'll check those rounds out. Is it required for bullets to fragment for them to do a lot of damage? I have heard Fragmentation is not everything.
.Scarecrow.
10-26-11, 14:47
How good are Silver State Armory rounds? They seem to make a wide array of 5.56 rounds. They sound like solid choices, but what do you guys think?
Failure2Stop
10-26-11, 14:50
How good are Silver State Armory rounds? They seem to make a wide array of 5.56 rounds. They sound like solid choices, but what do you guys think?
If you truly want to maximize effectiveness, follow the recommendations of DocGKR. He is a world renowned authority on terminal ballistics.
I think these kinds of scenario based questions are silly.
Belmont31R
10-26-11, 15:00
Yes read the sticky's and follow Doc's advice.
I personally have defensive use mags loaded with Speer GDHP 5.56MM 55 and 64 grain loads, and Federal LE223T3. The Speer GDHP 5.56 64GR is whats in my home defense AR. All are recommend loads from Doc.
For back up stash I have IMI M193 since I can't afford to keep thousands of rounds around of GDHP and especially not LE223T3.
.Scarecrow.
10-26-11, 16:11
okay, I'll get one of the ones he recommends
.Scarecrow.
10-26-11, 16:24
A lot of these rounds would be nice if I had time to reload. Or if I could even find them.
Okay, and is 50 grains really enough? Not doubting you, I even think 55 grain is light. But I honestly don't know. I'll check those rounds out. Is it required for bullets to fragment for them to do a lot of damage? I have heard Fragmentation is not everything.
The 50gr TSX is an all copper bullet, and while it is light in weight, because it is all copper it is longer (has more mass) than traditional 50gr bullet. Its length (mass) may be that of 60gr bullet of normal construction.
Belmont31R
10-26-11, 17:44
The 50gr TSX is an all copper bullet, and while it is light in weight, because it is all copper it is longer (has more mass) than traditional 50gr bullet. Its length (mass) may be that of 60gr bullet of normal construction.
Mass = weight
Volume= the amount of space an object takes up
What you meant to say was that because its made with a lighter density bullet it would have the same/similar volume as a heavier bullet made with denser materials.
:p:cool:
Huge fan of the 50gr TSX load. I fired some into milk-jugs. It penetrated about the same as a 9mm 124gr GDHP through water/milk-jugs.
People have shot many creatures with the X bullets over time and love them.
Here is picture>http://i41.tinypic.com/5dmrl4.jpg
The 3 slugs I recovered (inches):
1: 0.512 x 0.306 = 0.409 avg
2: 0.511 x 0.344 = 0.4275 avg
3: 0.518 x 0.295 = 0.4065 avg
Since it's in the LE .308 thread this might have been overlooked;
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19878
but Doc posted pictures of gel test shots through AK mags by various rounds.
The 77gr OTM ain't looking so good in that pic. Just sayin.
NoveskeFan
11-01-11, 21:50
I am not sure about the Mk262 77 gr because a guy on another forum had a good point about if (God forbid) you were to face someone with a chest rig that with rifle mags. A round that would penetrate that and still be effective. He said the 77 gr HP probably won't have enough penetration. What are your thoughts?
Could this guy have been talking about a plate carrier? Two to the chest, one to the head. If you recognize body armor right away, well then, center mass of the head.
Failure2Stop
11-02-11, 00:20
but Doc posted pictures of gel test shots through AK mags by various rounds.
The 77gr OTM ain't looking so good in that pic. Just sayin.
6" of penetration directly into the heart/lungs with that kind of frag pattern will readily drop a dude. I'm not chest thumping here, but I've seen me do it.
The projectile will get through and cause significant damage. Of course, it can be improved upon, and it isn't what I would consider optimal, which is why I recommended going with one of the recommended loads in DocGKR's thread, in which he makes it pretty clear that the best balance of performance from a 5.56 gun is one of the barrier blind rounds.
6" of penetration directly into the heart/lungs with that kind of frag pattern will readily drop a dude. I'm not chest thumping here, but I've seen me do it.
The projectile will get through and cause significant damage. Of course, it can be improved upon, and it isn't what I would consider optimal, which is why I recommended going with one of the recommended loads in DocGKR's thread, in which he makes it pretty clear that the best balance of performance from a 5.56 gun is one of the barrier blind rounds.
Never BTDT, but from a medical prospective, even my most obese patients don't have more than 1-2" of fat over the sternum (I'm talking 500#+ people), and if you want to count pecs (most obese people don't have much pec anyway), you MIGHT! encounter 3" or so, but it won't be dense.
The major unknown is the sternum/ribs.
Some people have a serious sternum, some don't.
I will NOT! volunteer to be shot while wearing a chest-rig with AK mags in it with 77gr OTM even if someone promises to aim for a mag. 12-14" of penetration is to account for marginal hits/hits from less than ideal angles. You don't need 12-14" of penetration on a sternal front-on shot to mess up darn near everything.
topsykretts
11-02-11, 02:10
Never BTDT, but from a medical prospective, even my most obese patients don't have more than 1-2" of fat over the sternum (I'm talking 500#+ people), and if you want to count pecs (most obese people don't have much pec anyway), you MIGHT! encounter 3" or so, but it won't be dense.
The major unknown is the sternum/ribs.
Some people have a serious sternum, some don't.
I will NOT! volunteer to be shot while wearing a chest-rig with AK mags in it with 77gr OTM even if someone promises to aim for a mag. 12-14" of penetration is to account for marginal hits/hits from less than ideal angles. You don't need 12-14" of penetration on a sternal front-on shot to mess up darn near everything.
Bottom line.. 55gr, 62gr, in a WROL situation what you want is accurate placement and lots of it.
Bottom line.. 55gr, 62gr, in a WROL situation what you want is accurate placement and lots of it.
I'm a fan of the SOST stuff. Nasty fragmentation with the bonus ability to penetrate after encountering an intermediate like a car-door or windshield.
6" of penetration directly into the heart/lungs with that kind of frag pattern will readily drop a dude. I'm not chest thumping here, but I've seen me do it.
The projectile will get through and cause significant damage. Of course, it can be improved upon, and it isn't what I would consider optimal, which is why I recommended going with one of the recommended loads in DocGKR's thread, in which he makes it pretty clear that the best balance of performance from a 5.56 gun is one of the barrier blind rounds.
A hurried post on my part. My sentence should have been more complete in saying ... "ain't looking so good vs the barrier blind type bullets".
Otherwise, I concur with your assessment.
I will note that if anything else was changed, as in add very heavy clothing behind the chest rig, or have an arm, twig, whatever get in the way before the bullet gets to the mag pouch, you might not get the 6" of penetration noted on the test.
I prefer to not cut things this close if I don't have to.
A hurried post on my part. My sentence should have been more complete in saying ... "ain't looking so good vs the barrier blind type bullets".
Otherwise, I concur with your assessment.
I will note that if anything else was changed, as in add very heavy clothing behind the chest rig, or have an arm, twig, whatever get in the way before the bullet gets to the mag pouch, you might not get the 6" of penetration noted on the test.
I prefer to not cut things this close if I don't have to.
Sorry for a necro post but unless you have a 5.56 muzzleloader its why god created follow up shots. If I feel the need to shoot he's getting two. I've seen way too many scary movies to get emotional about ammo conservation in my 30 rd mag.
Sorry for a necro post but unless you have a 5.56 muzzleloader its why god created follow up shots. If I feel the need to shoot he's getting two. I've seen way too many scary movies to get emotional about ammo conservation in my 30 rd mag.
But if you're using the wrong ammo, you may just be pissing in the wind when you dump your 30 round mag.
But if you're using the wrong ammo, you may just be pissing in the wind when you dump your 30 round mag.
Once again shot placement has way more effect on the outcome then ammo by a lightyear. I've seen how easily underpowered wolf fmj an HP punch through common steel. Granted it wasnt milspec 400 series armor plate but the steel had no problem disintegrating handgun ammo without problem.
Keep in mind these are not barrier blind even. I think to many people put emphesis on ammo. I seen green tip go through targets like a laser beam as well so there is no magic bullet. I do agree with you just had to play a little devil advocate.
Once again shot placement has way more effect on the outcome then ammo by a lightyear. I've seen how easily underpowered wolf fmj an HP punch through common steel. Granted it wasnt milspec 400 series armor plate but the steel had no problem disintegrating handgun ammo without problem.
Keep in mind these are not barrier blind even. I think to many people put emphesis on ammo. I seen green tip go through targets like a laser beam as well so there is no magic bullet. I do agree with you just had to play a little devil advocate.
Remember the post on here a year or two back where an officer in Texas was killed after dumping 30 Winchester BST's into a vehicle before the offender fired back and killed him?
There is ineffective ammo, depending on the situation.
But if you're using the wrong ammo, you may just be pissing in the wind when you dump your 30 round mag.
Once again shot placement has way more effect on the outcome then ammo by a lightyear. I've seen how easily underpowered wolf fmj an HP punch through 1/4" common steel. Granted it wasnt milspec 400 series armor plate but the steel had no problem disintegrating handgun ammo without problem.
Keep in mind these are not barrier blind even. I think to many people put emphesis on ammo. I seen green tip go through targets like a laser beam as well so there is no magic bullet. I do agree with you just had to play a little devil advocate.
ETA That statement was in no way questioning YOUR training but thought it was important and in no way am I saying that ammo in general isn't just that people have a way of under estimating the power of a 55 or 70 grain projectile at over 2000 fps. I just have a belief that if its worth shooting once its worth shooting twice min. Easily obtainable in most applications with a 30 rd mag regardless of what's stocked on it. Mil? That's a different story.
Remember the post on here a year or two back where an officer in Texas was killed after dumping 30 Winchester BST's into a vehicle before the offender fired back and killed him?
There is ineffective ammo, depending on the situation.
That's not exactly what happened in that fight.
Tactics was the real issue. Although I agree that the Winchester BST isn't a great choice for police duty use, the position of the suspect was behind the engine block, they would have needed a .50BMG to dig him out from where he had taken cover.
I have noted in a few shootings locally that Wolf is surprisingly barrier blind. It's not a great choice wound ballistics wise, but it really doesn't get any worse after going through cars and houses.
PA PATRIOT
11-17-11, 20:26
I have noted in a few shootings locally that Wolf is surprisingly barrier blind. It's not a great choice wound ballistics wise, but it really doesn't get any worse after going through cars and houses.
Some friends of mine use Wolf 55gr Copper H/P's on wild hogs down in Texas over the past five years and have reported that dozens of times when they shot at hogs on the run through one and two inch diameter thickets that the 55gr H/P bullets penetrated the thickets and took down the Hogs.
Now the bullets they dug out were not pretty but they appeared to have expanded or broke apart. They also stated that Jacket/Core separation ran about 50% but penetration was good enough to stop the hogs.
Affordability is a big issue. It is one thing to have 100 rounds of high quality man-stopping ammo. Laying in a supply of 20,000 rounds of it is another matter entirely, which is what the WROL (SHTF) question would seem to relate to.
Affordability is a big issue. It is one thing to have 100 rounds of high quality man-stopping ammo. Laying in a supply of 20,000 rounds of it is another matter entirely, which is what the WROL (SHTF) question would seem to relate to.
Exactly and the mk318 has been falling in line with m885, soon to be the preferred round for stock piles. Decent barrier blind, much more powerful than wolf or bonded JSP .223, and better with shorter barrels.
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