View Full Version : The importance of castle nut staking
I know this topic has been brought up from time to time and there are those who insist that it's not necessary and "theirs have never come loose".
Today I was conducting an inspection of AK47's and some pistols that are going to purchased by a large security company that is still operating in Iraq. In that same container were metric assloads of M4geries made by DPMS.
Since I finished early I decided to take a look at them. There was a huge pile stacked on top of some carboard triwalls. Many of them were in various states of disrepair, etc.. There were at least several dozens of them that had loose castle nuts and lower receiver extensions. Apaprently they didn't have an armorer and no one who knew anything about staking the nut.
So then I went and looked at some of the ones that were recently turned in from sites the were demobing and had recently been in use by TCN guards and there were more than a few that had loose nuts and receiver extensions as well.
Even the weapons in the racks that were still in occasional use weren't staked. Though many of these weapons were being carried and used, for the most part none of them were being run hard.
I just wanted to reiterate this point, because they will loosen. Even if you think that it is tight and it won't or can't happen I can guarantee it will. It simply doesn't make sense to skip this step in the process.
I am curious as to where you would stake the castle nut? Can you post a pic of correct castle nut staking. I am unsure if mine is or where to look for it being staked.:confused:
All properly made castle nuts have staking points. If you don't know I can assume either yours isn't or you have never noticed.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13748
I am curious as to where you would stake the castle nut? Can you post a pic of correct castle nut staking. I am unsure if mine is or where to look for it being staked.:confused:
As the castle nuts were not staked I would be curious to know if the carrier keys were in the same unstaked condition. Were you able to have a look at any of them?
Failure2Stop
10-26-11, 18:32
In my first foray into the civilian AR world (Dec 2004) I had no knowledge of proper staking. I built my own lower, and of course, did not stake the castle nut.
During my first trip to the range, by the time I had fired 90 rounds (6.8 SPC) I discovered that the stock was distinctly toed inward. I assumed that it was simply not tight enough and proceeded to tighten that sucker down. Within a few months, with very little actual live fire, I noticed that it had again toed in.
Shortly after that, following dedicated self-education on the matter, I corrected my errors and that lower is still in my inventory. There is another odd side-note about it, but it is unrelated to proper assembly. If you want your carbine to be usable as more than a safe filler, it's worth it to stake the castle nut. Takes all of 2 minutes to do right.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/aac562f2.jpg
loganp0916
10-26-11, 18:33
So what I got from reading one of those other threads is: all you need to stake a castle nut is a spring loaded punch or punch and hammer?.....
Failure2Stop
10-26-11, 18:35
So what I got from reading one of those other threads is: all you need to stake a castle nut is a spring loaded punch or punch and hammer?.....
I use a spring-loaded center punch. It takes a few times to move enough material to make it solid.
I know for FACT that they come loose.
When I built the SBR I had a TROY QD end plate, I left it on for awhile before I shot it, then I decided to just go with the ASAP plate, Im already set up for it and its just easier.
I still wasnt sure if I wanted the QD endplate on or not so I didnt stake it.
I had the rifle at the range THREE times and the castlenut was loose.
The only part I dont like about the ASAP is you can only stake it in ONE place.
I would like two points to be staked just to be safe.
Funny you should mention that. They were lacking to say the least. Tomorrow I am going to bring my tools with me and for shits and giggles I am going to see how many I can break loose simply by holding them in my hand and twisting.
As the castle nuts were not staked I would be curious to know if the carrier keys were in the same unstaked condition. Were you able to have a look at any of them?
Breadstick
10-26-11, 19:05
Yes it is important...Heck when I had my Olympic Arms. The damn nut would come loose just looking at it, no matter how much I cranked it tight.
It was frustrating either walking the land (25acres) or "Drilling" on the range out there it would always come loose.....this was way before I use the internet and this forum as a resource.
Things are different now and it is staked on my new "build" (custom assembled).
More I learned about the AR the more I realized that most of these small but critical details were/are over looked by soo many that either "know" about the platform and even build them.
Breadstick
10-26-11, 19:06
Funny you should mention that. They were lacking to say the least. Tomorrow I am going to bring my tools with me and for shits and giggles I am going to see how many I can break loose simply by holding them in my hand and twisting.
Are they going back into service? You think it would be prudent to wright the wrong? just askin'
.
My brother, his son and I were going shooting a few weeks ago and I just so happened to tell him his YHM rifle wasn't up to snuff. He said he hasn't had any problems with it and he thought it would be OK.
About 40 rounds later his son asked me, "Uncle Frank, What's wrong with our gun?" The Castle Nut had backed off and the buffer tube was very loose.
IG, with a loose Castle Nut, it seems it would be easy to break the Buffer Tube off at the threads or at least ruin the threads on the Tube or the Receiver.
What are some of the bad consequences you've seen from a loose Castle Nut??
Thanks
.
Breadstick
10-26-11, 20:20
Well one bad issue I had with mine is the buffer stop popped out during recoil cause the tube twisted a bit to much to hold the stop in place just enough for when recoil happend and the buffer came home there wasn't a stop to stop it. SO the gun didn't cycle correctly.
I had the stop and spring caught in the reciever areas and prevented bolt movement and the spring was down in the trigger group binding things up..I couldn't fire again cause the triiger was bound by the spring. I knew when it happend somthing went wrong...sounded awfull.
Well one bad issue I had with mine is the buffer stop popped out during recoil cause the tube twisted a bit to much to hold the stop in place just enough for when recoil happend and the buffer came home there wasn't a stop to stop it. SO the gun didn't cycle correctly.
I had the stop and spring caught in the reciever areas and prevented bolt movement and the spring was down in the trigger group binding things up..I couldn't fire again cause the triiger was bound by the spring. I knew when it happend somthing went wrong...sounded awfull.
===========================================
Hey Breadstick,
The Buffer Retainer (which is what I think you're referring) is only used when you open the upper/lower. The stop for the Buffer during normal operation is the BCG holding the Bolt closed.
I'd guess your issue was caused by the Retainer and Spring floating around gill-farting your action.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I have a KAC SR15E3 why don't KAC stake theirs?
Breadstick
10-26-11, 21:22
that's was it....all I know is when I shot it. It made an awefull noise Probly the retainer moving with the bolt, and I heard parts moving around in it when I brought it off my shoulder. When I cracked it open the buffer sprung out, the retainer fell out, and the retainer spring was down in the FCG.
another thing to remember is to make sure the castle is fully tightened before staking. one of my customers had a bcm where the receiver extension was loose and yet the castle nut was staked. Easily corrected though.
Great site. A lot of useful information here.
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
In my first foray into the civilian AR world (Dec 2004) I had no knowledge of proper staking. I built my own lower, and of course, did not stake the castle nut.
During my first trip to the range, by the time I had fired 90 rounds (6.8 SPC) I discovered that the stock was distinctly toed inward. I assumed that it was simply not tight enough and proceeded to tighten that sucker down. Within a few months, with very little actual live fire, I noticed that it had again toed in.
Shortly after that, following dedicated self-education on the matter, I corrected my errors and that lower is still in my inventory. There is another odd side-note about it, but it is unrelated to proper assembly. If you want your carbine to be usable as more than a safe filler, it's worth it to stake the castle nut. Takes all of 2 minutes to do right.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/aac562f2.jpg
Nice, clean work, there. What tool did you use?
I have a KAC SR15E3 why don't KAC stake theirs?
Once you have decided on what endplate you want, you should install it properly and stake it. Here is an old pic of my SR-15 with noveske QD endplate. Or just stalk the factory endplate, it is on there tight.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j248/87228/P3190301.jpg
The only part I dont like about the ASAP is you can only stake it in ONE place.
I would like two points to be staked just to be safe.
1 is 100% better than none.
Interesting thing about the ASAP is that the instructions make zero mention of staking at all.
Just tighten and go shoot.
And yes, I staked mine and a friends post install. On his we even got lucky in that it indexed to a spot where 2 stakes could be achieved, which I suppose could be accomplished more frequently if one had a small pile of castle nuts to swap in and out 'til the right combination of notches came up.
'Course there is always the thin edge of an ignition points or square jewelers file that'll put a staking notch anywhere you want on the castle nut once you figure out where specifically you need it.
polydeuces
10-26-11, 23:51
I know this topic has been brought up from time to time and there are those who insist that it's not necessary and "theirs have never come loose".
Today I was conducting an inspection of AK47's and some pistols that are going to purchased by a large security company that is still operating in Iraq. In that same container were metric assloads of M4geries made by DPMS.
Since I finished early I decided to take a look at them. There was a huge pile stacked on top of some carboard triwalls. Many of them were in various states of disrepair, etc.. There were at least several dozens of them that had loose castle nuts and lower receiver extensions. Apaprently they didn't have an armorer and no one who knew anything about staking the nut.
So then I went and looked at some of the ones that were recently turned in from sites the were demobing and had recently been in use by TCN guards and there were more than a few that had loose nuts and receiver extensions as well.
Even the weapons in the racks that were still in occasional use weren't staked. Though many of these weapons were being carried and used, for the most part none of them were being run hard.
I just wanted to reiterate this point, because they will loosen. Even if you think that it is tight and it won't or can't happen I can guarantee it will. It simply doesn't make sense to skip this step in the process.
Could you turn those DPOS into beercans? At least they'll do some good.
For those not familiar with the staking process you could get the Magpul ASAP sling plate. Comes with staking insert, both commercial and mil.
You'll never move that ****er ever again.....
Not that that'll do you any good in dirkadirkastan.....or you'd want to waste it on that crap..:blink:
I feel for you! Seriously....If you EVER make it to Florida I will have an unlimited quantity of very cold beer at your disposal. Hope that helps. Stay safe.
Belmont31R
10-27-11, 00:12
For those not familiar with the staking process you could get the Magpul ASAP sling plate. Comes with staking insert, both commercial and mil.
You'll never move that ****er ever again.....
Those inserts have zero to do with keeping the castle nut tight.
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 00:38
Nice, clean work, there. What tool did you use?
Thanks.
http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm174/Fail2Stop/d2e802be.jpg
Like $6 from Home Depot or Lowes.
It is my understanding that they are awaiting a decision from some U.S bureaucracy as to whether or not they can be returned to the U.S. Since they were a "temp export" and they are not full auto, one would think that it is a no brainer. But.......
Are they going back into service? You think it would be prudent to wright the wrong? just askin'
Funny that this discussion should come up at this time.
At a tactical rifle match last weekend, my Rock River puked on me when the castle nut came loose, and the spring and buffer retainer squirted out into the innards of the gun.
The gun was pretty much toast from that, and the buffer retainer managed to get bent in the process, so I'll have to get a new one before the gun can be used again.
polydeuces
10-27-11, 08:24
Those inserts have zero to do with keeping the castle nut tight.
You're right.
I was thinking of rotating receiver extension. Somehow related, but different issue altogether.
Well one bad issue I had with mine is the buffer stop popped out during recoil cause the tube twisted a bit to much to hold the stop in place just enough for when recoil happend and the buffer came home there wasn't a stop to stop it. SO the gun didn't cycle correctly.
I had the stop and spring caught in the reciever areas and prevented bolt movement and the spring was down in the trigger group binding things up..I couldn't fire again cause the triiger was bound by the spring. I knew when it happend somthing went wrong...sounded awfull.
I was at a class where this exact same thing happened to another guy. I was the only one at the class who had spare parts handy as well. As he had only the one rifle with him, I gave him the parts he needed.
We got him up and running. The guy even replaced the parts he used from my stash and then some.
This may have been discussed, isn't it important to make sure the castle nut is properly torqued before staking it?? Ask me how I know.......:sarcastic:
So I finished my inspections today and since I had some time I grabbed about 10 different DPMS carbines and check the BCG's. First thing I noticed is that the staking were (as noted previously) rather weak.
I was able to use my Magna-tip driver with the appopriate bit and with little effort most of the screw broke free and turned. There were a few exceptions.
The other thing I noticed is that they used (3) different types of screws to secure the key. There were two different sized hex heads a torx head similar to what Grant showed above.
All of the BCG's I examined were also semi-auto style as well. Not an "illegal" auto carrier to be found.
So what I got from reading one of those other threads is: all you need to stake a castle nut is a spring loaded punch or punch and hammer?.....
i just give it a whack with a flat blade screw driver... i dont want it to "never come off".. i just want it to not come off till I want it to... no need to crimp the shit out of it..
So I finished my inspections today and since I had some time I grabbed about 10 different DPMS carbines and check the BCG's. First thing I noticed is that the staking were (as noted previously) rather weak.
I was able to use my Magna-tip driver with the appopriate bit and with little effort most of the screw broke free and turned. There were a few exceptions.
The other thing I noticed is that they used (3) different types of screws to secure the key. There were two different sized hex heads a torx head similar to what Grant showed above.
All of the BCG's I examined were also semi-auto style as well. Not an "illegal" auto carrier to be found.
Sounds like any AR enthusiast should avoid DPMS.......:rolleyes:
As if we didn't need any more reason.
i just give it a whack with a flat blade screw driver... i dont want it to "never come off".. i just want it to not come off till I want it to... no need to crimp the shit out of it..
A proper stake with a punch will displace less material than a screwdriver based on contact surface area alone, so would actually be easier to remove along with being more effective due to the more focused placement a punch offers over a screwdriver blade.
Well, that and you won't ruin a punch by using it as it was intended like you can a screwdriver using it not as intended.
In any event the staking is done in a moderately soft steel alloy, hence the ability to get a decent punch mark in it to begin with, and the stake(s) is/are easier to overcome than an overtorqued nut if the proper wrench is used.
Here is one:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5633/img7128y.jpg
urbanpioneer
12-09-11, 10:45
Agreed, castle nut staking is important.
I was putting a recently assembled carbine through its paces doing some standing/kneeling/prone drills when the castle nut yanked out a couple of mustache hairs. It was then I noticed that the nut was loosening and the stock was wobbling. Promptly went home and staked that little guy.
As a side note, I can't believe how many people shoot non bench guns from a bench- all day long! It's like they refuse to pick a rifle up and handle it how it was built to be handled! You're missing out if you don't start moving around a bit with your guns - as many of you m4carbiners know! :)
Tim McBride
12-09-11, 10:56
The gun was pretty much toast from that, and the buffer retainer managed to get bent in the process, so I'll have to get a new one before the gun can be used again.
The buffer retaining pin is not a critical part and more of a convenience then anything else. If everything else is fine you can run the gun with out a buffer retaining pin if you needed to.
CarlosDJackal
12-09-11, 11:14
My first foray into converting an AR-15 rifle into a carbine resulted in a loose castle nut and wobbly receiver extension. The result was the bolt would bind against the extension when firing the rifle while shouldered.
I bought myself a castle nut tool and staking it using a punch. At very least make sure you have a witness mark so that you can have a visual reference whether or not your castle nut is starting to work loose.
But to echo what has already been said, staking is very important and an easy preventive measure. I currently use a spring loaded punch to do just this on all the rifles I assembled. And I have yet to have any of them loosen up on me. YMMV.
Suwannee Tim
12-09-11, 17:19
If you had a castle nut with only one staking recess and you wanted another or two you could easily install them with a small round file or a (damn I hate to say this) Dremel tool.
How difficult (or not) is it to un-stake a castle nut and then to restake it if one needs to gain access -- for example, to put on a new endplate for sling purposes (such as the Noveske endplate)? All my lowers are LMTs and are very nicely staked, but now I want to change out the endplates and I haven't done it thinking I may mess something up....
How difficult (or not) is it to un-stake a castle nut and then to restake it if one needs to gain access -- for example, to put on a new endplate for sling purposes (such as the Noveske endplate)? All my lowers are LMTs and are very nicely staked, but now I want to change out the endplates and I haven't done it thinking I may mess something up....
Just tap whatever metal that's inside the castle nut notch back into the end plate. Use a small screwdriver edge..
shaneinhisroom
01-04-13, 19:41
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I have a word of warning for everyone: just because your castle nut is staked does not mean you shouldn't check it!
Mine was staked by Grant a year ago, and after about 1500 rounds it the castle nut worked loose. I was taking my SSA trigger out today (upgrading to SSA-E and dropping the SSA into another lower) and found that my receiver had some play. Sure, it didn't back out because it was staked, but nevertheless the nut was loose and my receiver could wiggle about. I attribute this to the fact that the Magpul ASAP could only be staked in 1 place. I much would rather have 2 or even 3.
I restaked it after tightening it down as well as applying a little blue Locktite for extra preventative measure.
Do check your castle nuts in your routine checks!
Weird, i have an asap installed and it is staked in 2 places at 2:30 and 10:30. what is preventing a second stake?
edited with shitty camera phone pic
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8227/8347351715_6f2b404088_c.jpg
shaneinhisroom
01-04-13, 21:30
Mine unfortunately lined up at 12 oclock, preventing two stakes.
Weird, i have an asap installed and it is staked in 2 places at 2:30 and 10:30. what is preventing a second stake?
edited with shitty camera phone pic
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8227/8347351715_6f2b404088_c.jpg
Looks like the end plate diameter concentric with the nut is so much larger that the material displaced is not traveling far enough towards the center line to engage the notch in the nut. Could just be the camera angle.
its the angle for the most part. what i had to do was indent the plate so that although the top part was flared, the part engaging the nut was the flat part below it. if that makes any sense. i was afraid of cracking the plate because, as you said, the diameters were so different. i needed to push a lot of the plate material into the nut. so imagine a conical shape up to the visual shiny part that you see. its most likely not the best stake job because of this. as we speak i have a paint stick to also mark the setup redundantly.
on a related note is the asap usually so much larger than the castle nut? its the only non recommended manufacturer (dpms.....its all they had) part on the rifle and its been bugging me to say the least. i forgot to order one from bcm with my R.E parts so i picked this up at my lgs. i figured a castle nut is a castle nut but..... it is dpms
I had to remove a properly staked castle nut on my LMT lower when I attached a Magpul ASAP. As I did not have any tools, I did not restake the castle nut.
I think I know how to restake it, but I've never done it before. Can I do it wrong and mess something up? I know everyone says it's easy to do, but most things are when you know what you are doing.
After reading the last couple of posts, I wonder if I should attempt it myself. Any suggestions?
shaneinhisroom
01-04-13, 22:27
I literally just took my flat blade large tip and a shot peen hammer. Give it a good 3-4 whacks. You can use a spring punch but mine staked just fine.
Mine unfortunately lined up at 12 oclock, preventing two stakes.
You can dremmel in a notch on the CN where needed
Sorry to bring up an old thread, but I have a word of warning for everyone: just because your castle nut is staked does not mean you shouldn't check it!
Mine was staked by Grant a year ago, and after about 1500 rounds it the castle nut worked loose. I was taking my SSA trigger out today (upgrading to SSA-E and dropping the SSA into another lower) and found that my receiver had some play. Sure, it didn't back out because it was staked, but nevertheless the nut was loose and my receiver could wiggle about. I attribute this to the fact that the Magpul ASAP could only be staked in 1 place. I much would rather have 2 or even 3.
I restaked it after tightening it down as well as applying a little blue Locktite for extra preventative measure.
Do check your castle nuts in your routine checks!
The cause of the problem is the ASAP plate. The locking "key" is the weak link here. Unless it is basically press fit into the plate, it is just a matter of time before it slides left to right (thusly causing play in your RE).
The ASAP is my least favorite receiver plate to use because of the above.
C4
shaneinhisroom
01-05-13, 16:32
The cause of the problem is the ASAP plate. The locking "key" is the weak link here. Unless it is basically press fit into the plate, it is just a matter of time before it slides left to right (thusly causing play in your RE).
The ASAP is my least favorite receiver plate to use because of the above.
C4
Now you tell me, Grant! I just ordered another ASAP from you. Is the Noveske QD any better?
Now you tell me, Grant! I just ordered another ASAP from you. Is the Noveske QD any better?
Noveske QD's are fine. Maybe .020 step up from castle nut. Here's a small pic from one of mine.
http://powerstrokearmy.com/photopost/data/542/Noveske_QD-Castle_nut.jpg
Now you tell me, Grant! I just ordered another ASAP from you. Is the Noveske QD any better?
If you press fit the key (use the long one and file it to fit the RE Slot) and then stake it, they are pretty stable.
Me personally, I only use the Noveske QD plates.
C4
NavyDavy55
01-05-13, 18:54
Has anyone tried the Daniel Defense Receiver End Plate with Quick Detach Sling Swivel Attachment or the GG&G Receiver End Plate with Angular Quick Detach Sling Swivel Attachment?
I'd like to know how these stand up to actual use.
Daniel Defense Receiver End Plate http://www.midwayusa.com/product/367635/daniel-defense-receiver-end-plate-with-quick-detach-sling-swivel-attachment-point-and-heavy-duty-qd-sling-swivel-ambidextrous-ar-15-lr-308-carbine-aluminum-matte
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/primary/367/367635.jpg
GG&G Receiver End Plate http://www.midwayusa.com/product/579361/gg-and-g-receiver-end-plate-with-angular-quick-detach-sling-swivel-attachment-point-and-heavy-duty-qd-sling-swivel-ambidextrous-ar-15-lr-308-carbine-steel-phosphate
http://media.midwayusa.com/productimages/440x330/primary/579/579361.jpg
Andrew Jackson
01-05-13, 19:15
I'm going to throw this out there, I have only done 1 build that is an M4forgery where I installed the buffer tube and I did not stake the castle nut.
I didn't worry about it because I am using this:
http://troyind.com/%20/slingsmounts/sling-mounts-slingsmounts/troy-professional-grade-rifle-receiver-sling-adapter
The weapon so far only has had is 9 magazines ran through it, but I did 3 magazines non stop at the cyclic rate to try to see if the rifle would hickup. It didn't, and nothing is loose yet.
Obviously 270 rounds is not enough to really say much at all, BUT I do believe that Troy mount is probably a useful sling mount if you don't feel like staking the castle nut for whatever reason and need a sling mount to run a 1 point.
Like I said, 270 rounds is far from definitive, but give me some more range time and the rounds will add up fast. I can post more definitive information later.
Years ago, I picked up a set of Stanley Nailset punches. They work quite well for staking castle nuts and carrier keys. I find them easier to maintain position when staking than an automatic (spring-loaded) centerpunch.
summertrips
01-05-13, 21:19
Being me to AR15's and this site I saw this thread and after reading a few of the postings became concerned. Sionics is a small and somewhat new manufacture of AR15's in Tucson so I went to check my weapon.
My castle nut is well staked.
I love this site and continue to learn.
Always have an automatic punch in your toolkit if you teach classes. I probably do at least 2-4 per class. 'let me see your rifle' thirty seconds or so go by as I stake it and they say, 'well damn, I would have done it before if I knew how easy it was.....'
A $1 Autozone screwdriver + hammer will do the same job but not be as pretty/uniform.
Razorhunter
01-06-13, 13:09
Fellow armorers and castle nut stakers,
What castle nut wrench are you using? I've been considering upgrading to one of the following wrenches. What do you guys use ?
http://classic.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=27454
http://classic.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=468
In the top link above, which shows the wrench that engages ALL FOUR. castle nut slots, appears that it would be impossible to slide on/off the receiver extension. Anyone used it before???
Fellow armorers and castle nut stakers,
What castle nut wrench are you using? I've been considering upgrading to one of the following wrenches. What do you guys use ?
http://classic.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=27454
http://classic.brownells.com/mobile/aspx/search/product.aspx?pid=468
In the top link above, which shows the wrench that engages ALL FOUR. castle nut slots, appears that it would be impossible to slide on/off the receiver extension. Anyone used it before???
Hammerhead is what I use.
C4
I also use a Hammerhead, but I'm not at the same level as Grant.
As to the poster above wondering about the DD QD mount. I have one and it's been fine for over a year and 1500 miles slung while riding my snowmobile hunting predators, plus a RedBack One class.
A friend of mine got this one and let me use it when I changed out my RE. A solid tool that comes highly recommended here.
http://www.hammerheadrifletool.com/HammerHead_Rifle_Tool/HammerHead_Rifle_Tool_Home.html
I bought a Noveske QD end plate but now I'm really doubting if I want to break the factory stake on my Sig M400 - it's so nicely done...
I bought a Noveske QD end plate but now I'm really doubting if I want to break the factory stake on my Sig M400 - it's so nicely done... I think I'll save it for my next build unless someone wants to take it off my hands.
Just stake the new one. It takes like 5 seconds. A chimp could do it.
Just stake the new one. It takes like 5 seconds. A chimp could do it.
I don't doubt my mechanical ability to do it, I just don't know if I want to mess up the factory stakes on my Sig... After all, I do have QD points on the lower receiver if I need them (although they get scratched up... yarrrrrrr)... They did such a pretty job from the factory... Plus, I don't want to screw with my warranty...
Razorhunter
01-06-13, 14:41
What's the reason behind the shape of the hammerhead wrench? Strictly cosmetic, or to allow for its namesake?
Can the Hammerhead be used to mount the ASAP?
Appears to me there isn't much room for the Hammerhead's enclosed design to fit over the slider bar on the ASAP.
Never used this tool but if it can I'll buy one.
If it does not then Grant would you tell me what you use to install it with.
-Jax
Can the Hammerhead be used to mount the ASAP?
Appears to me there isn't much room for the Hammerhead's enclosed design to fit over the slider bar on the ASAP.
Never used this tool but if it can I'll buy one.
If it does not then Grant would you tell me what you use to install it with.
-Jax
Its not perfect (it seats at a slight angle) but I've installed atleast 10 ASAPs without issue with the hammerhead (and could easily overtorque it if so desired).
What's the reason behind the shape of the hammerhead wrench? Strictly cosmetic, or to allow for its namesake?
I would imagine the design is intended to get 2 hands on both sides of the tool therefore helping to eliminate the tool from rolling off the castle nut notches and making those beautiful gouges seen on bad installs.
Its hard with cheap tools to keep it at a perfect 90 degrees from the castle nut. Especially when performing it with a tool where pressure can only be applied to one side. I'd say that's probably the reason for the shape.
-Jax
Its not perfect (it seats at a slight angle) but I've installed atleast 10 ASAPs without issue with the hammerhead (and could easily overtorque it if so desired).
Gotcha. Appreciate that buckjay.
-Jax
Stake stake stake, I will say red loctite is not enough. My RRA had the tube and nut come lose after about 2000 rounds and it for sure had red loctite on it without staking.
No need for loctite, red or otherwise. Just stake it and be done with it.
Hmmm. My colt 6940 came unstaked.
Stake stake stake, I will say red loctite is not enough. My RRA had the tube and nut come lose after about 2000 rounds and it for sure had red loctite on it without staking.
Yes, red loctite is overrated. When I was younger and didn't know any better I red loctited the forend tube nut on my 870 after putting a new forend on. A couple of year later and a stout forearm wrench were all that took to break it. I was amazed at how cleany it broke considering I had literally doused the threads.
Razorhunter
01-14-13, 11:51
Question for all of you armorers and armorer types:
With regards to removing/loosening an older Colt style castle nut, (the ones that have the pin holes all the way around the centerline/circumference of the castle nut: -Are you guys just using a regular old "DPMS-like" lower receiver vise block???? (The style that acts like a magazine, via sliding up into the magwell???* With the extreme torque at which some of these KAC castle nuts are tightened down to, I have often wondered if the lower itself could potentially warp, due to such force being applied to loosen the castle nut.
Is there perhaps a better solution, (ie a more secure) lower vise bock available , instead if the typical magwell type??? What are you guys using to mount lower receivers, when loosening ULTRA TIGHT castle nut?s??
Razorhunter
01-14-13, 11:55
Question for all of you armorers and armorer types:
With regards to removing/loosening an older Colt style castle nut, (the ones that have the pin holes all the way around the centerline/circumference of the castle nut: -Are you guys just using a regular old "DPMS-like" lower receiver vise block???? (The style that acts like a magazine, via sliding up into the magwell???* With the extreme torque at which some of these KAC castle nuts are tightened down to, I have often wondered if the lower itself could potentially warp, due to such force being applied to loosen the castle nut.
Is there perhaps a better solution, (ie a more secure) lower vise bock available , instead if the typical magwell type??? What are you guys using to mount lower receivers in the bench vise, when loosening ULTRA TIGHT castle nut?s??
I don't ever use a lower receiver block. Instead, I clamp the receiver extension itself in a set of padded vise jaws and tighten/loosen the castle nut. Worst case scenario is you over-tighten the vise and crush the RE (never had it happen). Even so, that's a $35 part instead of a serialized lower receiver.
ETA: I need to snap a pic next time, but make sure you have the bottom of the RE with the flat surface against one of the jaws.
Razorhunter
01-14-13, 12:35
No pic required, yeah, I don't think I prefer clamping the RE itself. To each his own I guess. I just wanted to know if anyone here has had any issues when using a regular magwell vise block , while dealing with really tight castle nuts???
WhiskyNiner
01-14-13, 13:26
Am I imagining things or is this a lot more simple than people are thinking?
It's just a punch to deform some metal into a pocket so a nut won't move. Hardly rocket surgery, but important to have done.
Or am I, sadly, missing something?
Razorhunter
01-14-13, 13:36
Am I imagining things or is this a lot more simple than people are thinking?
It's just a punch to deform some metal into a pocket so a nut won't move. Hardly rocket surgery, but important to have done.
Or am I, sadly, missing something?
Nope that's it. That's all there is to it, so long as you make sure the castle nut is torqued to spec, prior to staking...
WhiskyNiner
01-14-13, 13:56
And then to reverse the process to remove the nut you would take another punch of some sort to schmoosh the deformed metal back where it came from to free up the pocket for removal, which would allow for the possible reuse of the same parts or at least least make removal easier?
1. Get proper tools- Hammerhead works best.
2. Secure the lower in a vise (again proper tools).
3. Apply steady pressure to castle nut with wrench and it will break free.
And then to reverse the process to remove the nut you would take another punch of some sort to schmoosh the deformed metal back where it came from to free up the pocket for removal, which would allow for the possible reuse of the same parts or at least least make removal easier?
Razorhunter
01-14-13, 14:13
Het IraqGunz, I'm curious, what is your preferred lower vise block/lower receiver clamping method for this purpose???
WhiskyNiner
01-14-13, 14:17
1. Get proper tools- Hammerhead works best.
2. Secure the lower in a vise (again proper tools).
3. Apply steady pressure to castle nut with wrench and it will break free.
I've worked on everything BUT guns, and gun parts are expensive in my house. I'm seeing inside my head that this is all quite simple, but I don't know the hardness of these steels yet. I hate being the new guy again.
I reckon I'll have to learn all this just like everybody else did. I can't wait!
My Dad's rule #1 for anything that may require thinking: Beer AFTER the work is done.
Picked up a spring loaded punch at Home Depot and staked both of my castle nuts today...thanks for the tip. :D
The staked castle nut came loose on my SBR the other day. I noticed it from the silver felt pen mark I made to indicate the looseness of various nuts which did its job. Took it home and tightened it further and restaked(slightly more aggressively). It's not going anywhere now. Remember to check your gear.
Guys,
This is not an earth shattering question. The rifle will be fine either way, I just want to get an opinion or two from you guys.
If you use Locktite on the castle nut, will staking it after the Locktite sets somehow upset the Locktite?
Being behind enemy lines here in NY, I always had A1 stocks on my Colts. Under the new laws, I can now add an adjustable stock.
I was putting on an adjustable stock and decided to use Locktite on the castle nut.....and I figured I'd stake it in a few days.
Will staking it after the Locktite dries undo the Locktite?
No big deal.
That is all.
Nope. Even if it does, you've still got it staked ;)
You'll be fine though the Loctite wasn't necessary
skullworks
04-20-13, 14:01
What they said. After staking the Loctite will be redundant. No worries.
Tapatapatapatalk
I just used some red loctite and torqued it down. No staking. Holds fine.
polymorpheous
04-20-13, 15:50
I just used some red loctite and torqued it down. No staking. Holds fine.
Please don't give this advice on this forum.
Please don't give this advice on this forum.
I hope he never has to change it. Unfortunately there are people that believe everything they read online. GH
OP, the staking is not to "make it tighter"... it's to make it immobile after it is already properly tightened.
Staking is not going to move ( "undo" ) anything. It's simply going to wedge some metal into a slot like a door lock.
You are locking a movable object (Castle Nut) to a non-movable object(End Plate / Sling Adapter ). The threads are no longer in the picture at that time.
Not sure if that is clear to you but staking is not an operation of "driving it tighter"... it's a "setting" operation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Want to see a response to this post!:suicide:
Something else that works that doesn't require staking is using Fortis QD end plates. They're made from aluminum and if you torque the crap out of the steel castle nut, the teeth will dig into the aluminum, forming a stronger bond than staking. How do I know? I regularly pop staked nuts off - when I went to change the RE on a build I had put together with a Fortis plate? I almost gave myself a hernia! It was unlike anything I've ever encountered. After I got the nut loose, you could see the area on the Fortis plate that had gouged and locked into the castle nut. Try it.
Something else that works that doesn't require staking is using Fortis QD end plates. They're made from aluminum and if you torque the crap out of the steel castle nut, the teeth will dig into the aluminum, forming a stronger bond than staking. How do I know? I regularly pop staked nuts off - when I went to change the RE on a build I had put together with a Fortis plate? I almost gave myself a hernia! It was unlike anything I've ever encountered. After I got the nut loose, you could see the area on the Fortis plate that had gouged and locked into the castle nut. Try it.
I think the goal of staking isn't to provide such a secure bond that sweat and tears are created when removing.... it's there to prevent the castle nut and buffer tube from backing out.
It can easily happen. I've seen it... but so far I've never see it occur on a properly staked weapon. I'm sure there are other - more secure methods... like welding the f***er in place, but it defeats the purpose in the long run.
texasgunhand
04-22-13, 00:10
This is to easy to do. Not to do it....
I just used some red loctite and torqued it down. No staking. Holds fine.
Duct tape would have been a much better choice. Most secure stake ever. Might as well skip pinning the fsb and duct tape that as well. Heck, who needs a barrel nut either, you can lighten your gun way up by duct taping all critical parts rather than wasting time with all these gimmicky punches and pins.
And lol on tb-av's comment. Captian obvious eh.
I just used some red loctite and torqued it down. No staking. Holds fine.
After spending a weekend with Iraqgunz this type of garbage is less than comical. As you will find the loctitie simply bonds the castle nut to the receiver extension. So when they start spinning and fall off it will be easy to find the nut.
This advice is right up there with putting two castle nuts on...to prevent them from backing out. It takes a four dollor tool and about a minute to do it right, come on man....
Picked up a spring loaded punch at Home Depot and staked both of my castle nuts today...thanks for the tip. :D
Do these work that much better than a cheap center punch? I've always heard of guys using spring-loaded ones but have never tried one.
I have this http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/6/Stanley-Tools-16-227-rw-146256-213222.jpg
It works...so I don't know why I'm asking. Curiosity mainly.
ETA: staking porn
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/02B3343A-E7B8-4C63-A75D-ADB245DF3BAB-1127-00000081E3ED4360_zpsbd74083b.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/myersma2/media/02B3343A-E7B8-4C63-A75D-ADB245DF3BAB-1127-00000081E3ED4360_zpsbd74083b.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/1A388E99-0B3B-46E2-8DEF-887479F1B9CC-1127-00000081E94EE12B_zps48dd2bbe.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/myersma2/media/1A388E99-0B3B-46E2-8DEF-887479F1B9CC-1127-00000081E94EE12B_zps48dd2bbe.jpg.html)
http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t294/myersma2/Technical%20and%20Parts/FB222702-02E3-40AD-A80F-1F568FE607AB-448-0000003BA99AD1CC_zps30eb14f6.jpg (http://s163.photobucket.com/user/myersma2/media/Technical%20and%20Parts/FB222702-02E3-40AD-A80F-1F568FE607AB-448-0000003BA99AD1CC_zps30eb14f6.jpg.html)
Perfect staking job there Munch!
Thanks, repetition makes for great practice ;)
Bash away guys, but I have had two castle nuts that have not been staked and held up with blue loctite. Both guns have over 2000 rounds and the loctited castle nuts have not moved.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2
Is it possible to get the castle but back off after it's been staked? If so, how hard is it?
Is it possible to get the castle but back off after it's been staked? If so, how hard is it?
Easily, and much easier than after applying something like locktite.
Usually, I can get the castle nut to shear the staking by just putting increasing tension on the wrench. If that doesn't work, a tap to the wrench with a mallet will help get through the staking.
Both guns have over 2000 rounds and the loctited castle nuts have not moved.
Dude 2K is a good weekend of shooting, lose the attitude and listen to the people that actually know what they are doing, usually noted by the Moderator/SME/ Industry Professional tags
Bash away guys, but I have had two castle nuts that have not been staked and held up with blue loctite. Both guns have over 2000 rounds and the loctited castle nuts have not moved.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I847 using Tapatalk 2 There are guys here that run through 2000 rounds a month. It's all fine and dandy until it does move at the wrong time. If you are OK with that, then rock on. Staking is so incredibly simple that I don't understand the resistance to it.
Munch, nice staking job. I use a similar punch. I find the big sizes easier to hang onto and do a good job.
skullworks
04-22-13, 11:35
I think the goal of staking isn't to provide such a secure bond that sweat and tears are created when removing.... it's there to prevent the castle nut and buffer tube from backing out.
It can easily happen. I've seen it... but so far I've never see it occur on a properly staked weapon. I'm sure there are other - more secure methods... like welding the f***er in place, but it defeats the purpose in the long run.
Agreed! One must understand why something should be done and not overdone.
Do these work that much better than a cheap center punch? I've always heard of guys using spring-loaded ones but have never tried one.
Spring-loaded punches work, but the process is slow and not as easy as one would think. Great staking job there. I think I'm going to use the same punch on my stakes from now on, thanks!
Munch, nice staking job. I use a similar punch. I find the big sizes easier to hang onto and do a good job.
Spring-loaded punches work, but the process is slow and not as easy as one would think. Great staking job there. I think I'm going to use the same punch on my stakes from now on, thanks!
Thanks guys. Guess ill stick with the Stanley. I've been happy with it for the past couple years. Cheap and does the job. One word of caution, since its pretty thick, the lower receiver can get in the way if you're not careful where you start the stake.
Suwannee Tim
04-22-13, 12:14
i just give it a whack with a flat blade screw driver... i dont want it to "never come off".. i just want it to not come off till I want it to... no need to crimp the shit out of it..
A screwdriver is a pretty poor excuse for a punch, it is not going to be very hard, maybe not as hard as the metal you are tying to upset. If you want to fix your castle nut with a completely reversible process use Loctite. Snug the nut up with the wrench, back it off 1/16 or so of a turn, apply one drop to one castle slot then sock it down. Remove the excess Loctite with alcohol and set it aside for a few hours to cure. I don't guarantee this method will never fail though it has worked for me and I don't claim it to be the equal of staking though I have found the breaking torque of the Loctite method to be similar to a staked nut. If you use more Loctite you will likely have much difficulty if you ever try to take it apart.
It doesn't take much to stop a fastener from vibrating loose. I was watching some guys assemble a 150 megaWatt gas turbine and they were applying stamped sheet metal Palnuts to the big ole nuts that hold the turbine case halves together. The studs looked to be 1-1/2 inch or so, the nuts maybe a 3 inch hex, massive fasteners, the Palnuts looked miniscule in comparison.
Easily, and much easier than after applying something like locktite.
Usually, I can get the castle nut to shear the staking by just putting increasing tension on the wrench. If that doesn't work, a tap to the wrench with a mallet will help get through the staking.
OK, cool. Now if you do take it off, do you have to put a new end plate on when you reassemble? Or will the nut fall at a different place on the end plate and can be re-staked?
(Sorry for the newb questions, I haven't dealt with this yet)
OK, cool. Now if you do take it off, do you have to put a new end plate on when you reassemble? Or will the nut fall at a different place on the end plate and can be re-staked?
(Sorry for the newb questions, I haven't dealt with this yet)
No worries man, it will likely fall into the same place, but either way you should use a fresh endplate. I forgot to sometimes in the past, but remember to grease receiver extension threads as well.
This works, Valv #632:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQKAtxGxRsLNW11lzjVm215jO71jWQkVn5BAjICzszahH_t2db0
OK, cool. Now if you do take it off, do you have to put a new end plate on when you reassemble? Or will the nut fall at a different place on the end plate and can be re-staked?
(Sorry for the newb questions, I haven't dealt with this yet)
If you use the same endplate and the same castle nut, it will. The castle nut has 3 stake points so you can generally re-use it and stake at a different point.
Much, do you use that grease on your barrel nuts as well?
If you use the same endplate and the same castle nut, it will. The castle nut has 3 stake points so you can generally re-use it and stake at a different point.
Much, do you use that grease on your barrel nuts as well?
Yes. Or any similar, non metallic grease.
Has anyone staked an aluminum end plate and if so does it respond well to it? Steel bends, hardened aluminum tends to break.
I have staked Daniel Defense aluminum end plates with no issues at all.
polydeuces
04-22-13, 20:11
[QUOTE=munch520;1620103]Do these work that much better than a cheap center punch? I've always heard of guys using spring-loaded ones but have never tried one.
Spring-loaded are useless. Basically.
davidjinks
04-22-13, 20:15
I have had the personal experience of a RE coming loose. I have also seen it a few times at the range with "Other" types of ARs.
My personal setup when building a lower:
Colt end plate
Colt castle nut
Colt or Vltor RE (A5)
Aeroshell 33MS grease (RE threads and receiver threads)
40 foot pounds
Staked castle nut
I took a 3/8 punch and ground it down a small amount to a square. It fits squarely into the caskt nut cut outs. I'll stake until enough metal is displaced. Degrease with acetone and cold blue. I'll get some pictures up when I get home.
So how many points do you stake, one or two?
So how many points do you stake, one or two?
there's no real torque on the nut trying to back it off. it's not like there is force trying to unscrew it, just vibration and flexing of the RE.
this, however, is why a fastener that dries hard is not a good solution because once the seal is broken, there is nothing to hold the nut in place. vibratite is a product that remains rubbery when dry and if I had to use something on this part, is what I would use.
however, in auto or aircraft applications, any critical component is either staked or, if it is needs to be R&R regularly, it is safety wired...
davidjinks
04-23-13, 07:39
I always stake 2 points.
So how many points do you stake, one or two?
Hello,
I just finished staking my (first) lower, and somehow I missed the part about using moly grease. Could someone suggest how grievous of an issue this is and what the potential ramifications are?
My take is the primary risk is that the nut and the buffer tube will fuse/freeze and you'd destroy your castle nut and buffer tube when attempting to remove. If that's it, I can live with it. I'm curious tho how likely that would even be since the tube is anodized?
Also, I originally staked just one spot, then re-reading the threads, I see that the proper way is to do two spots. I went ahead and did a second stake, but can someone offer thoughts on that? It seems like overkill if you're just trying to keep the nut from vibrating loose.
Oh, one other question. I picked up a Phase 5 pistol tube for another lower so I can assemble it pending SBR. It has a little do-hicky that engages the buffer weight stop so that the tube can't turn. Is it necessary to stake the nut since as far as I can tell, the tube can't unscrew? If I was going to be leaving it this way forever, I'd probably do it anyways, but at some point I hope to replace the tube and I'd rather not mar up the endplate till it's in the final configuration. Thoughts?
Thanks,
-john
I never use Moly grease. Complete non-issue unless you're doing salt water amphibious operations or something. Also, the castle nut isn't exposed to the heat that the barrel nut is.
Oh, one other question. I picked up a Phase 5 pistol tube for another lower so I can assemble it pending SBR. It has a little do-hicky that engages the buffer weight stop so that the tube can't turn. Is it necessary to stake the nut since as far as I can tell, the tube can't unscrew? If I was going to be leaving it this way forever, I'd probably do it anyways, but at some point I hope to replace the tube and I'd rather not mar up the endplate till it's in the final configuration. Thoughts?
I've never seen a Phase 5 pistol tube but I've never had to stake an A2 stock, my UBR, or MOE fixed rifle stock due to there not being a castle nut in the first place. If it has a nut, I would stake it, regardless of whatever doohickey they've built in.
I had an acquaintance who thought it unnecessary to stake the castle nut on a 22lr build he was doing....was quite entertianing to me when the whole practically fell apart at the range one day...
Honestly I only stake my serious guns. My range toys and plinking guns just get the proper torque and I've yet to have a castle nut back out - and yes I use index marks. I use Fortis plates now exclusively and I really think that there's something to the steel/aluminum bond. It's sorta self-staking.
Staking is such a minor and non-permanent, preventative step, it's not logical to pass on it. I've seen them come loose too.
Staking is such a minor and non-permanent, preventative step, it's not logical to pass on it. I've seen them come loose too.
I agree. I think most people are scared to do it, but once they give it a go and realize how easy it really it is, it becomes a non-issue. The only reason why I don't stake my fun guns is that I swap bits around on them too much and don't want endplates full of staking indentations. Only my dedicated .22, one pistol and my "testing platform" AR are currently unstaked. I'll probably stake the pistol once I decide if I want to change the RE out to put one of those Sig braces on it.
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