View Full Version : "MIL-SPEC" accuracy...
Hey guys, I just wanted to post an example of what a MIL-SPEC rifle can do with standard M855 ammunition. The AR is a bone stock Colt 6920 w/ Aimpoint M4. Ammunition is Israeli Military Industries M855. Earlier today I went to an indoor range to really see what the accuracy potential is for a few of my AR's with the ammunition I usually run in them.
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/indoorsmall.jpg
As I was sitting there waiting for the target to make its way down the range, a guy came up and asked why I was trying to shoot paper at 100 yards with an AR and a 1X optic (Aimpoint). I said "what do you mean?" His response went something like this: You can barely see what you're aiming at and even if you could you won't print anything but a shotgun pattern at that range with that rifle / ammo. I said "okay, let's see."
10 shots and a few minutes later the target carrier brought this back:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMIM855.jpg
That's 10 shots at around 1.5 MOA with a chrome lined barrel, Aimpoint, and M855.
After the guy gazed at the target for a few minutes, he started getting really interested in AR's (He was shooting a Remington 700 in a hunting configuration). He begrudgingly admitted that he would be hard pressed to shoot the same group with his bolt action. Another convert to the "dark side."
Let this go to show that if you do your part, a standard AR in this configuration can and will perform...so long as the driver does his part.
jonconsiglio
10-26-11, 18:43
BCM 14.5" mid length with a T1. I got a little ahead of myself and wrote 100 when it was actually closer to 85 yards. That's ok, still pretty decent for the first time with the rifle past 25 yards in the week or so I've had it.
This was xm193. Magazine as a rest.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/jconsiglio33/22f115b7.jpg
Failure2Stop
10-26-11, 18:44
I've had some A2s that would consistently put the bullet exactly where the front sight said it should go, all the way back to 600 yards (with proper wind-call, of course).
There's a big difference between threshold precision and what many of these weapons will do out of the box even with issued M855.
FWIW- I am finding the IMI ammo (I'm shooting the M193) to wholly acceptable for the price it goes for.
steelonsteel
10-26-11, 20:13
Good shooting!
buckshot1220
10-26-11, 22:25
Yeah, it's not uncommon to see quality ARs group that well even with just mil ammo. I get the same looks and comments when I set targets out in the 75-100 yard area at the outdoor range here. I get even weirder looks when I start shooting at the 5.5" circles while standing.;)
What can be quite amusing is when everyone walks downrange and they realize the groups they are shooting sitting down, using a sandbag with a bolt action are roughly the same size that a good shooter with AR can put together.
I remember getting good groups with IMI M855 a few years back too.
Hey guys, I just wanted to post an example of what a MIL-SPEC rifle can do with standard M855 ammunition. The AR is a bone stock Colt 6920 w/ Aimpoint M4. Ammunition is Israeli Military Industries M855. Earlier today I went to an indoor range to really see what the accuracy potential is for a few of my AR's with the ammunition I usually run in them.
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
As I was sitting there waiting for the target to make its way down the range, a guy came up and asked why I was trying to shoot paper at 100 yards with an AR and a 1X optic (Aimpoint). I said "what do you mean?" His response went something like this: You can barely see what you're aiming at and even if you could you won't print anything but a shotgun pattern at that range with that rifle / ammo. I said "okay, let's see."
10 shots and a few minutes later the target carrier brought this back:
That's 10 shots at around 1.5 MOA with a chrome lined barrel, Aimpoint, and M855.
After the guy gazed at the target for a few minutes, he started getting really interested in AR's (He was shooting a Remington 700 in a hunting configuration). He begrudgingly admitted that he would be hard pressed to shoot the same group with his bolt action. Another convert to the "dark side."
Let this go to show that if you do your part, a standard AR in this configuration can and will perform...so long as the driver does his part.
Excellent group! What is really funny is that M855 is pretty much the LEAST accurate of all the .Mil ammo. So imagine what that group would have looked like with some better ammo and a powered optic!
For those are not aware, Colt makes some of the most accurate (combat grade) barrel on the market. We consistently see 1.0-1.5" groups out of them and .50-.85" groups out of the 6940.
C4
We consistently see 1.0-1.5" groups out of them and .50-.85" groups out of the 6940.
Pappabear's 6940 is freakishly accurate.
Pappabear's 6940 is freakishly accurate.
Ya I know and his isn't the only one we have seen do that.
C4
Excellent group! What is really funny is that M855 is pretty much the LEAST accurate of all the .Mil ammo. So imagine what that group would have looked like with some better ammo and a powered optic!
For those are not aware, Colt makes some of the most accurate (combat grade) barrel on the market. We consistently see 1.0-1.5" groups out of them and .50-.85" groups out of the 6940.
C4
I agree about the Colt barrels. I routinely shoot MK262 out of my M4 with 1-4x with great results. You can't ask for anything more out of a combat grade chrome lined barrel.
The steel core in the M855 is what makes them less accurate. It's not an inherent accuracy disadvantage, but a matter of manufacturing difficulty. If the core is not perfectly centered it throws the center of gravity off and you get wobble. Ever get that tight 4 shot group only to have the 5th go wild...and you know you didn't pull the shot? With the old M855 that's usually why. That is part of the reason that M855A1 is more accurate (and I can tell you that it definitely is...although still not the round they should have chosen, but that's a whole different topic).
Really, the whole point of shooting the M855 w/ Aimpoint was to use a platform that the average Joe uses on a daily basis and really see what it'll do indoors. I don't know what kind of voodoo IMI does when making their M855 but I'll keep buying it as long as they keep making it.
What is impressive about those groups is NOT the ammunition/rifle/carbine's accuracy. Such accuracy is expected.
What impresses the most is that you accomlished that with sight using a large red dot as the point of reference.
What is the MOA of the dot you were using?
Belmont31R
10-27-11, 10:07
Interesting you guys can get such good groups with M855. Molon did tests with several different brands using Colt barrels and got an average 10 shot group size of 3.2" @100 yards with 4 different types of M855 which has basically mirrored what I have gotten with chrome lined barrels including Colt, Noveske, Centurion, & BCM.
I do like IMI ammunition though. Never been able to get it to shoot sub MOA even out of a barrel that would shoot 10 shot sub MOA groups. It did the best for Molon, too. Someone can prove me wrong but I don't think anyone should be expecting sub MOA results consistently if they are even getting those with M855 or M193 even. There is a reason the military adopted Mk262 for precision use.
You can read his M855 accuracy report here: http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=897827&postcount=6
What is impressive about those groups is NOT the ammunition/rifle/carbine's accuracy. Such accuracy is expected.
What impresses the most is that you accomlished that with sight using a large red dot as the point of reference.
What is the MOA of the dot you were using?
It's a 2 MOA dot. I zero at the top of the dot at 100M. It just makes things easier since the dot is not obscuring the target with this method. It's also easier to get an idea of where you are left to right. At close range the difference is inconsequential and you just put the dot on the target and shoot as you normally would.
As far as the inherent accuracy potential of the equipment, I'm not sure I would agree that 1.5 MOA is "expected" with M855, which is the weakest link in the chain. Back in the day, I wouldn't get too worked up as long as I was seeing 3.5 inches or less at 100 with .mil issue M855. 2-4 MOA is honestly pretty standard. IMI's load is very consistent with a low SD, which helps. Good QC for sure.
Someone can prove me wrong but I don't think anyone should be expecting sub MOA results consistently if they are even getting those with M855 or M193 even. There is a reason the military adopted Mk262 for precision use.
Yeah, no way. I've only seen a few sub MOA groups with M855 and they were all flukes. As in...shooter error combined with the inaccuracy of the ammunition came together in such a way that the rounds all got flung into a tiny little cluster...which wouldn't have been so tiny if the trigger had actually broke at the desired point of aim. Random, really.
I would question the veracity of anybody claiming consistent or even common sub MOA performance with M855 or M193.
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/indoorsmall.jpg
But more importantly....... What is your 40 time??
Failure2Stop
10-27-11, 11:53
We consistently see 1.0-1.5" groups out of them and .50-.85" groups out of the 6940.
Is the barrel of the 6940 different or are you attributing the precision gain to the upper?
What is impressive about those groups is NOT the ammunition/rifle/carbine's accuracy. Such accuracy is expected.
Eh, not really. Within the .mil, there is a terrible tendency to destroy our weapon's precision capability due to improper maintenance/cleaning and failure to maintain expenditure logs on anything other than precision barrels. US LC manufactured M855 is terrible, as pointed out by a0cake, seemingly mostly due to the inconsistency in placement of the steel "penetrator", along with some issues with pressure consistency. Some lots will be great, some lots will be bad, and they will all have a few "substandard" rounds that will blow groups despite the best efforts of the shooter. That deviation can be anywhere from barely perceptable to a couple of minutes of angle. This has been observed, tested, verified, and confirmed.
So I would definately not say that one should anticipate such performance, and if you happen to get it, enjoy it.
What impresses the most is that you accomlished that with sight using a large red dot as the point of reference.
As long as you have a target that you can esily center the dot in, it is pretty easy to get good groups. The size of the dot has nothing to do with the ability to shoot good groups, what does matter is the size of the dot in relation to the target.
Molon did a good demonstration of this.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34995
Is the barrel of the 6940 different or are you attributing the precision gain to the upper?
No, same barrel as the 6920. It is just free floated.
C4
Not to derail from the op but...
Does anyone know where IMI M855 is in stock?
I cant seem to find any threw google.
Not to derail from the op but...
Does anyone know where IMI M855 is in stock?
I cant seem to find any threw google.
Not sure if Wideners has any left. They had unpainted M855 for a while. The good old green tip hasn't been around for a while now.
Not to derail from the op but...
Does anyone know where IMI M855 is in stock?
I cant seem to find any threw google.
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18|830|845
^^^ This is what I'm using. Lot # 00235/K FWIW. It's G2G
Looks like ill be giving that stuff a try,
thank you
Generalpie
10-27-11, 14:53
If he can't hold half that group with a plain Jane 700 bolt then he wouldn't do anything of the sort with an AR with an unmagnified optic.
Not bad performance at all on your part.
That's 10 shots at around 1.5 MOA with a chrome lined barrel, Aimpoint, and M855.
(He was shooting a Remington 700 in a hunting configuration). He begrudgingly admitted that he would be hard pressed to shoot the same group with his bolt action. Another convert to the "dark side."
Let this go to show that if you do your part, a standard AR in this configuration can and will perform...so long as the driver does his part.
jonconsiglio
10-27-11, 14:54
^^^ This is what I'm using. Lot # 00235/K FWIW. It's G2G
That place has some good prices... Their 338 and 50 seems pretty good too. I haven't bought any for a while, but I paid a lot more for Lake City last time.
I was surprised how accurate the xm193 was in my 14.5" BCM barrel considering how my SR15 handled it.
nice group you got there! i need to take mine out to the range soon! starting to develop an itch!
What can be quite amusing is when everyone walks downrange and they realize the groups they are shooting sitting down, using a sandbag with a bolt action are roughly the same size that a good shooter with AR can put together.
Would that not be a good shooter with an AR vs a mediocre shooter with a bolt gun? Meaning, a good shooter using a good bolt gun using decent ammo shooting from sitting/bag at 100 yards should be making mighty tight groups yes?
ammunitiontogo.com has winchester m855 (but $.10 more a round though) anybody have any info to compare Winchester vs IMI. also what is the highest grain I could shoot out of a 1:9 (or more like highest i should shoot).
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9017&dir=18|830|845
Got two cases of IMI 193C about a year ago. I am very satisfied with this, I don't see any advantage of the 855C for range purposes(feel free to advise). I have also made many purchases with Wiedners over the years and have been satisfied with their prompt and reliable service.
IMIM193C 1200 round case IMI 55gr FMJBT Ammunition 1200 round case $318.00/1200
Excellent group! What is really funny is that M855 is pretty much the LEAST accurate of all the .Mil ammo. So imagine what that group would have looked like with some better ammo and a powered optic!
For those are not aware, Colt makes some of the most accurate (combat grade) barrel on the market. We consistently see 1.0-1.5" groups out of them and .50-.85" groups out of the 6940.
C4
I did not realize that the 6940 was capable of such precision. That is right up there with Noveske. :dirol:
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/indoorsmall.jpg
I have never seen a 100 yard indoor range, thats impressive!
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/indoorsmall.jpg
I have never seen a 100 yard indoor range, thats impressive!
I was thinking the same thing... last time I have ever shot on a range like that was in Virginia at the NRA Headquarters. Even the Olympic Training Center's ultimate range is only 50m
ammunitiontogo.com has winchester m855 (but $.10 more a round though) anybody have any info to compare Winchester vs IMI. also what is the highest grain I could shoot out of a 1:9 (or more like highest i should shoot).
I have not found better M855 than IMI, including military issue LC. The Winchester will work, obviously...but if given a choice I'm going with IMI.
Most 1/9 barrels will stabilize up to 69 GR rounds adequately (Some will go higher some lower)...although stabilization for a given twist rate is a function of bullet length, not weight. Heavier rounds are longer. Just FYI.
+1, IMI is the best M855 to shoot and the best price
Nightvisionary
11-02-11, 02:42
Hey guys, I just wanted to post an example of what a MIL-SPEC rifle can do with standard M855 ammunition. The AR is a bone stock Colt 6920 w/ Aimpoint M4. Ammunition is Israeli Military Industries M855. Earlier today I went to an indoor range to really see what the accuracy potential is for a few of my AR's with the ammunition I usually run in them.
I ran the target out to 100 yards.
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/indoorsmall.jpg
As I was sitting there waiting for the target to make its way down the range, a guy came up and asked why I was trying to shoot paper at 100 yards with an AR and a 1X optic (Aimpoint). I said "what do you mean?" His response went something like this: You can barely see what you're aiming at and even if you could you won't print anything but a shotgun pattern at that range with that rifle / ammo. I said "okay, let's see."
10 shots and a few minutes later the target carrier brought this back:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/IMIM855.jpg
That's 10 shots at around 1.5 MOA with a chrome lined barrel, Aimpoint, and M855.
After the guy gazed at the target for a few minutes, he started getting really interested in AR's (He was shooting a Remington 700 in a hunting configuration). He begrudgingly admitted that he would be hard pressed to shoot the same group with his bolt action. Another convert to the "dark side."
Let this go to show that if you do your part, a standard AR in this configuration can and will perform...so long as the driver does his part.
What range facility was this performed at?
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