View Full Version : Press checking...
In this months SWAT Mag, there is an article talking about this subject. The author of the article is on this forum and have asked him to comment on it so as to not hijack another thread.
Before he responds, what do you guys think about press checking? Good idea or not needed?
C4
Yes and no. I am interested in seeing some other thoughts though. The article in question was a good one.
Don Robison
11-21-07, 18:53
I think it's fine for an admin or preparing for the day setting. IMO it's just part of getting ready for the day. I do think it can get out of hand when you're loading and unloading 30 times a day on the range. I read the article also and even though he has some valid points about using the chamber indicators, not all handguns are equipped with them, so I prefer to visually check. It makes my caveman brain feel warm and fuzzy. I wouldn't chastise someone one way or the other though. I just view it as a preference item.
Is a "Press Check" the same as a chamber check but mostly only used on a 1911? If yes, read below.
If no, disregard this post.
I think a chamber checking function to verify the condition of a weapon is universally regarded as a good thing.
The older method of checking with a 1911 by pinching the triggerguard and the spring plug is however, IMHO less than optimum.
I know it works but there are other metods that work just as well and without the attendant risk of the fingers inside the trigger guard and a fraction of an inch away from the muzzle.
Again, it works but is not optimal.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 18:59
Grant,
I just got your PM and I wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for reading SWAT and focus the responses a little more for those who haven't read the article.
There is a huge difference between the practical and somewhat reasonable press check at the beginning of the shift or before leaving the last safe & secure and the habit of press checking EVERY TIME you go to the ready position. The latter is one that has become "important" because of competition and administrative range habits. Also, I think it falls into the category of a "cool guy skill" especially if you can do it fast or in some overly complicated way (one-handed-vertical-with-a-brass-touch, for example).
I've seen more guys cover themselves and/or induce malfunctions than I have ever seen find an empty chamber. Quite frankly, I have a real problem with a guy who at 2pm, after 5-6 hrs on a hot range, doesn't know whether or not his gun is loaded. That guy scares me a little.
I sometimes ask the constant pressers if they also go into their crawl spaces everytime they flush to check for puddles..... Unless you have a catastrophic failure of the firearm, the main reason you wouldn't have a round in the chamber would be a failure to seat the magazine or fully rack the slide. Simple press check that works with the physics of the gun (as opposed to taking it halfway out of battery and them pushing it closed): Tap the mag, Rack the slide. If you're on a tactical training range, that is a great time to find out that your gun is broke. If you've done that and maybe even pulled on the mag one last time "just to be sure", drive on!
In a PM, Grant also referenced another thread discussing the possibility of using loaded chamber indicators to put ones mind at ease. Some guns, like the M&P and the XD have great indicators. When I did the initial review of the XD for SWAT, I even mentioned that it has the only one I would trust by feel with gloves on. While these are great options on some guns, I still say that you should know the condition of your gun and use your time on the training range to find out if you're doing something dramatically wrong, not for administrative complex motor skills that have no place being used during a dynamic critical incident.
Yes, we've seen people do press checks after slide lock reloads during scenario runs because of the bad habit. it's not pretty.
So, the question isn't just one that gets a "yes or no" it's 1. When? 2. How? 3. Why?
My answers are:
1. Beginning of "shift" or other admin time, in the absence of a reliable loaded chamber indicator. NOT on the line during tactical training.
2. By tapping the mag and racking the slide again (topping off as appropriate).
3. If you're gun has been proven to work and you've followed the proper loading procedures, this is the big question. You can only use "just to be sure" so many times before you start sounding paranoid.
****Edit in response to Donr's post*****
The reason I do discourage those who "constant check" as a habit is because, as noted above, I have seen them doit out of habit during clearly inappropriate times.
*********
-RJP
Don Robison
11-21-07, 19:05
I sometimes ask the constant pressers if they also go into their crawl spaces everytime they flush to check for puddles...
Thanks,
You just made me laugh pretty damn hard which has been hard to do the last couple of days.
Also thanks for the article. It made me think about a few things and affirmed a few of my own thoughts.
Rob,
Again, great article. Your post above is spot on and in line with how I stand on the subject.
There is a huge difference between the practical and somewhat reasonable press check at the beginning of the shift or before leaving the last safe & secure and the habit of press checking EVERY TIME you go to the ready position. -RJP
Exactly my thoughts. I personally do it more with my AR than with my handguns. Example being... I have had to grab my AR (at home) at night on more than one occasion, and chamber a round quietly and in the dark. I will slightly retract the charging handle and feel for a chambered round. Was first taught this by someone it appears is a mutual acquaintance (R. A.) :)
Of course, and alternate way is to remove the mag and feel for the top round to have changed sides.
Doing it on the range/in class for every reload or presentation....... no way.
John_Wayne777
11-21-07, 19:12
In this months SWAT Mag, there is an article talking about this subject. The author of the article is on this forum and have asked him to comment on it so as to not hijack another thread.
Before he responds, what do you guys think about press checking? Good idea or not needed?
I haven't read the article, but I've gotten a click instead of a bang on more than one occasion when stepping up to run a drill.
Personally if I am about to depend on a weapon for serious social purposes I give it a decent once over including a press check to make sure there is a round chambered and I eject the magazine to make sure it is full. I then make sure the weapon goes back into battery and that the magazine is properly inserted and then I'll put it in the holster.
I also carry a backup 90% + of the time and I've been called paranoid many times before, so I'm comfortable with the title. :p
If I'm on the training range I don't often do one. I do admin checks on my mags quite often, though....
So, the question isn't just one that gets a "yes or no" it's 1. When? 2. How? 3. Why?
My answers are:
1. Beginning of "shift" or other admin time, in the absence of a reliable loaded chamber indicator. NOT on the line during tactical training.
2. By tapping the mag and racking the slide again (topping off as appropriate).
3. If you're gun has been proven to work and you've followed the proper loading procedures, this is the big question. You can only use "just to be sure" so many times before you start sounding paranoid.
-RJP
Do you make any distinction between checking the carbine vs the sidearm? I know Pat preaches checking the carbine, although he teached making a note of the position of the top round in the mag, charge weapon, remove mag and verify the top round has changed position. Then push-pull. This of course for admin purposes, not after speed reloads in the heat of battle (as you point out in your piece).
I'm not sure if the idea of checking after every reload, even if on the line, is paranoid. I can see the value of performing the check to reinforce good habits, but each of these is admin in nature. Again, we're exempting speed reloads from the procedure.
What would get aggravating though is, if someone performs the procedure, holsters the weapon, and then performs it at a later time. Sidearms just don't magically unload themselves while holstered. If you have confidience in your routine, you only need to do it once/reload.
Personally I think the concept of a LCI, that's both visually and tactilely verifiable, is a great feature in a sidearm. Eliminates the need to perfrom check manually and all the attendant issues that crop up from doing it incorrectly, dangerously or needlessly.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 19:33
jmart,
I consider the pistol and rifle checks the same in general... as for the method that you were taught by Mr. Rogers for systems with that type of magazine, I think it is a great solution (in the admin setting). If you check the position of the round before loading and then check after chambering you don't take the weapon partially out of battery. No need to go further.
-RJP
jmart,
... as for the method that you were taught by Mr. Rogers ....
-RJP
Let me make something clear, I have never been taught by Pat first hand. Someday I hope to have the opportunity, if he'll take a true neophyte in every sense of the word.
This procedure Pat detailed in an issue of SWAT several months ago.
(1) Eyes
(2) Ears
(3) Sidearm (to include loaded chamber verification, mag seating and safeing)
(4) Carbine (to include loaded chamber verification, mag seating, securing dustcover)
(5) Optics powered up
Before I leave the gate I do presscheck my weapons.
For my M4, I just put the mag in, hit the bolt catch, pull the mag out and feel that the round is on the other side. Then I reinsert mag and push/pull.
For handgun (g17/19 or 1911) I ensure the mag is fully seated, rack the action, pull the slide partway back and feel/look to see if the round is chambered, then again make sure the mag is seated before I return the weapon to my holster.
Sidewinder6
11-21-07, 20:50
I need to subscribe to this mag. I have trouble finding it on the stands.
Jay Cunningham
11-21-07, 20:53
When I am literally betting my life that my firearm will go bang instead of click, I like a sure thing. I press check my nightstand gun before I go to bed. I press check my CCW before it goes in the holster. It only takes a second.
During training when it is time to make all the guns hot ("make ready") I will load and press check my pistol and my AK - if I'm shooting an AR I use the crossover method. Generally I don't press check during the course of training, nor do I press check a tactical or speed reload.
Steven Segal did it in a movie. So it must be good to go!
Seriously though.... One of my instructors made us confirm a live round was chambered... by either looking at what was in the mag or via press check.
Again, I'll ask if anyone remembers the pinch check?
ETA: nevermind. 1source, ID'd the pinch check!
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 21:33
I had an instructor make me move my foot 1 inch so that I "had a chance of hitting" once while we were in a garage at the PD doing tape room drills for entry work. I used to teach the fully extended low ready with a pistol. It is amazing how many things "instructors" teach that are questionable at best. ;)
****
As for subscribing to SWAT: YES, you should! (but, wink, wink.... you might want to wait a few weeks as we about to announce a pretty cool promo for new subscribers and renewals)
-RJP
This is my first post on this forum and I would like to start by saying that I have enjoyed reading the wealth of information that this site makes available to professionals in the community. I am a range master and firearms instructor for the Los Angeles Police Department.
The “press check”, or as we call the “chamber check”, is a fundamental skill that is at the heart of all of our administrative firearms manipulations. In our Handgun Instructor Training School “HITS” manual it states that “A chamber check in an administrative function to be preformed any time that an Officer is unsure of the condition of his weapon.”
An example of this would be anytime that your firearm is out of your immediate possession and control, or whenever you give to, or receive a firearm from, another person. A large number of our negligent discharges & class one malfunctions use to occur when a firearm was passed from one Officer to another, and the Officer that received it, believed the firearm was either loaded or unloaded, and he was wrong. Either way the outcome can be tragic.
The loading and unloading procedure, which is an administrative function, that we teach has three parts:
1) Chamber check Verify the need to load / unload.
2A) Insert the magazine (tap / tug), grasp the charging handle/slide with the support hand, rack the action slapping the primary shoulder, tap the forward assist. OR
2B) Remove the magazine, lock the slide/bolt to the rear, catch the round, visually and physically inspect the firing chamber, feed way, and magazine well, and guide the slide/bolt home.
3) Chamber check Verify that the firearm is loaded / unloaded.
That may seem very redundant; however, if you are betting your life, and the lives of your fellow Officers, that your firearm is properly loaded/unloaded and are working in a high stress environment, and if you follow the procedures listed above, you will be 100% sure, every time.
BTW the reason we do not call it a press check is that we teach the recruits in the Academy to “press” the trigger, and under stress “press” and “press check” can get confusing. Ask me how I know.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 21:49
Buck,
Thanks for joining in on the conversation.
I certainly understand your procedures and why they are there. The question I have is do you expect the shooters to do a press check every time they pull the pistol from the holster to the ready position on a firing line?
I do a check press after "load and make ready" while at the range/training but never during reloads or the course of fire. I also press check my weapons whenever I have been away from them for any amount of time.
At the start of shift I put on my belt, press check my pistol and make sure that the light is working. I do the same with my rifle, along with checking the optic. I do that even though they have been locked up in my locker and no one has access to them. I also press check my pistol everytime I reholster it after putting it in a lock box when booking someone. It's a habit.
ETA.... After the press check on the firing line, all weapons are holstered. Every round of fire is timed from the holster so bad habits such as press checking after the draw do not happen.
Yes, as it puts your hand next to the business end of the muzzle.
If I am going to do a press check (which I rarely do and don't really think is a good idea) I use the rear serrations.
C4
Any time my gun leaves my direct control I do a press check.
There are several things I check as I put on my uniform and get ready for work. One is to ensure that there is a round in the chamber and the mag is full. The other is to open the cylinder of my back-up and ensure it's loaded. There is no one in my house but my wife and I and the dogs not having thumbs hardly ever unload my guns but it's cheap easy insurance.
Any time my blasters end up being placed in a lock box at the cell block or prison I do a press check when I retrieve them.
As a firearms instructor I can't tell you the number of times I've seen guys start a drill with a loud click. I have also witnessed several times during inspection where guys would unload and show clear and nothing fell out of the chamber. Yes, some are LCD types who can't be helped regardless, but more then one went "Shhhiiittt" because they didn't realize they forgot to charge their weapon. And yes, I teach all my students how to properly do a press check.
If one does not have the manual dexterity to do a press check perhaps they shouldn't be carrying a gun to begin with. Front cocking serrations are not the problem. Hell I kinda like them and do grasp the front of the slide for certain manipulations. If they're not there I can still do the same manipulations but they do help a bit when things are wet/cold etc. Yes using front cocking serrations can put your hand/digits close to the muzzle of the gun. Close is different then in front of.
Having said all that I do agree that making it a habit of doing a press check every time you clear leather (or kydex) is certainly a no go.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 22:00
Okay... so, not surprisingly, a lot of people regularly do press checks.
What are your thoughts, then, on using the procedure that I recommended:
After loading for the day/shift/patrol/whatever or when retrieving your potentially-but-I'm-not-sure-it's-loaded pistol from wherever your left it (that's a whole 'nuther issue):
Check that the mag is seated,
rack the slide,
watch the round come out proving that the gun is working properly,
remove the mag, (at this point the truly paranoid could count the rounds left in the mag ;) )
replace with a fully loaded one,
make sure the mag is seated.
The advantage, in my opinion, being that it introduces no new mechanical skills that the shooter doesn't need otherwise for truly necessary functions and it doesn't take the firearms partially out of battery creating the opportunity for a malfunction.
-RJP
Buck,
Thanks for joining in on the conversation.
I certainly understand your procedures and why they are there. The question I have is do you expect the shooters to do a press check every time they pull the pistol from the holster to the ready position on a firing line?
The short answer is no.
The long answer is NO, a chamber check is an administrative function. If you draw and exhibit your weapon from your holster and you are 100% sure that it is loaded, or if you perform other combat functions whilst shooting i.e. tactical reloading, in battery speed reloading, out of battery speed reloading, or perform a malfunction clearance (class 1,2 or 3), the chamber check is an unnecessary step that is a waist of valuable time.
Just my.02
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 22:05
Buck,
Thanks.. I think those are both good answers.
What are your thoughts, then, on using the procedure that I recommended:
After loading for the day/shift/patrol/whatever or when retrieving your potentially-but-I'm-not-sure-it's-loaded pistol from wherever your left it (that's a whole 'nuther issue):
My weapons are never "un-loaded" during my work week. I store them in my locked locker loaded and in the holster (unless it has rained). It just gives me a piece of mind to press check them after they have been out of my immediate possession.
Check that the mag is seated,
rack the slide,
watch the round come out proving that the gun is working properly,
remove the mag, (at this point the truly paranoid could count the rounds left in the mag ;) )
replace with a fully loaded one,
make sure the mag is seated.
The advantage, in my opinion, being that it introduces no new mechanical skills that the shooter doesn't need otherwise for truly necessary functions and it doesn't take the firearms partially out of battery creating the opportunity for a malfunction.
-RJP
I see no problem with that procedure as long as there is a clearing barrel available in the room.
Jay Cunningham
11-21-07, 22:21
Okay... so, not surprisingly, a lot of people regularly do press checks.
What are your thoughts, then, on using the procedure that I recommended:
After loading for the day/shift/patrol/whatever or when retrieving your potentially-but-I'm-not-sure-it's-loaded pistol from wherever your left it (that's a whole 'nuther issue):
Check that the mag is seated,
rack the slide,
watch the round come out proving that the gun is working properly,
remove the mag, (at this point the truly paranoid could count the rounds left in the mag ;) )
replace with a fully loaded one,
make sure the mag is seated.
The advantage, in my opinion, being that it introduces no new mechanical skills that the shooter doesn't need otherwise for truly necessary functions and it doesn't take the firearms partially out of battery creating the opportunity for a malfunction.
-RJP
I prefer a tactile check - who knows what the lighting conditions might be.
Yes, in an ideal world we should be able to make ready in our "happy place" - but it's nice to have a procedure that works under any circumstance. This is for a pistol.
OTOH, the AK is extremely easy to press check with the safety on, while IMO the AR is best checked via magazine crossover. Unfortunately we cannot use this technique on pistol magazines.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 22:23
S1,
Which begs the question: Do you use a "clearing barrel" when you do your regular press checks?
And I should point out that I am perfectly comfortable not prefacing every online firearms instruction with "with the gun pointed in a safe direction"....
With all that said, I would advise that the above procedure be done at speed in the high compressed ready position to further be consistent with other procedures (reloads, malfunction clearing, etc).
TheKatar,
The round ejecting is a sensory experience.
*****
I don't want this to become too much of a perceived academic argument... I want it to be clear that this isn't just a case of inventing a problem where there isn't one or trying to create a new procedure for no reason:
The goals for anything I teach/advocate are always Consistency & Efficiency. The fewer things we have to do or learn, the higher our competency can become given a limited amount of time/energy/interest for training.
-RJP
Rob, I'm not really sure that's such a good idea as cycling the ammo through the gun causes bullet set back (as I'm sure you are aware).
Most guys will just continue to load the top two rounds of the magazine and eventually (normally not too long with current ammo quality) the bullet set back can reach unacceptable level leading to higher pressures when fired and/or inconsistent feeding. For guys that unload/reload their guns daily I encourage them to rotate the ammo so the same two rounds are not constantly at the top of the mag.
The only manufacturer who would answer the question stated the their "spec" is that a bullet not move in the case for two repetitions of being chambered.
ETA: Nope, I don't require the use of a clearing barrel to do press checks. As you already stated "With the firearms pointed in a safe direction".
One thing that wasn't mentioned, unless I overlooked it, was dry fire exercises.
That is when I always and repeatedly do press checks even if I am 100% sure the weapon is unloaded.
Otherwise I see no reason to check the firearm/rifle once you a insert loaded mag and rack the slide.
At that point you should be alert enough to know your weapon is charged ready to roll.
However if never unloaded, I can see checking at the beginning of each day.
S1,
Which begs the question: Do you use a "clearing barrel" when you do your regular press checks?
No I don't. I'm usually in the locker room or in the sallyport of the jail.
With all that said, I would advise that the above procedure be done at speed in the high compressed ready position to further be consistent with other procedures (reloads, malfunction clearing, etc).
At the range I could see that happening. It all depends on who you are teaching, I guess. If they are LE Officers, find out what the normal practice is for them at their agency. Do they perform their checks in the armory? Locker room? After muster? If it's any of those I do not believe everyone would be in the "compressed ready position" when performing their weapons checks.
It's unfortunate and sad, but I would be a little uneasy with certain people manipulating their firearms, as much as you describe, around me in a un-controlled non-range setting. As I'm sure you know, not everyone that carries a firearm for a living (LE or.Mil) is "switched on" and a gun person.
The goals for anything I teach/advocate are always Consistency & Efficiency. The fewer things we have to do or learn, the higher our competency can become given a limited amount of time/energy/interest for training.
-RJP
I agree but it depends if people are going to use, or are able to use, the techniques taught in their everyday regimen. If not, then it's a waste of time.
Okay... so, not surprisingly, a lot of people regularly do press checks.
What are your thoughts, then, on using the procedure that I recommended:
After loading for the day/shift/patrol/whatever or when retrieving your potentially-but-I'm-not-sure-it's-loaded pistol from wherever your left it (that's a whole 'nuther issue):
Check that the mag is seated,
rack the slide,
watch the round come out proving that the gun is working properly,
remove the mag, (at this point the truly paranoid could count the rounds left in the mag ;) )
replace with a fully loaded one,
make sure the mag is seated.
The advantage, in my opinion, being that it introduces no new mechanical skills that the shooter doesn't need otherwise for truly necessary functions and it doesn't take the firearms partially out of battery creating the opportunity for a malfunction.
-RJP
I'm just Joe Blow nobody, but the problem I see with a chamber check that removes the magazine is this. My understanding was the chamber check was to ensure the magazine was seated properly, thus feeding the round into the chamber. You're removing a magazine you know is inserted properly and inserting the same or another magazine that does not give you that assurance.
Then again, if you pull the bolt/slide back to check, you're not sure you're in battery either.
Standing by for counterbattery.
the1911fan
11-21-07, 23:17
We have a clearing barrel right at the rear station door and before going out I do a press check. I also check my extra mags to make sure the rounds are seated properly, I also check my CT laser to make sure it is working as well as my weapon light. I make sure all my equipment is working whether it's the gun, the taser, pepper spray (make sure debris did'nt get it the firing mechanism), or one of my flashlights or video/audio system. Hardly if ever do I get to work and have calls waiting so I have the time to do all of this 99% of the time.
Rob Pincus
11-21-07, 23:38
I honestly do not lose a lot of sleep over the act of chambering the round having a negative effect on any aspect of modern ammo in a modern gun (pressure, or otherwise). That round is designed to be chambered as part of the process and the physics of the process dictate that repeated chambering should not have a compounding effect. This may not be the case for homegrown reloads (which is where probably where the concern for this type of things come from: competition world, etc...), but I don't sweat it for factory ammo and wouldn't design a manipulation procedure around it.
*****
I am most certainly suggesting that this, and all weapons handling, be done in the context and at the speed intended, whenever possible. I do empathize with the "heebie-jeebies" you might get if everyone starts racking the slide in the locker room, but if they can't rack the slide, how did they get the gun loaded in the first place?? Weapons handling in the locker room (or where-ever) is still weapons handling in the locker room.
*****
Dport,
I agree with your point about the mags coming out. That's the funny thing about this "check" as a concept: it doesn't really prove that everything is perfect. At the end of the day, you have to follow proper loading and firing procedures with a gun that is in operating order or you're screwed... messing with mags and/or the slide should be a recipe for screwing things up, not making yourself feel better!
My opinion is honestly that if the mechanics/competition guys could come up with a procedure for "press checking" the striker/firing pin spring, they'd do that too. At the end of the day, you can only be so "sure". I still maintain that the guy who doesn't really know whether his gun is loaded or not is a little creepy. It's bad when you step up to the line and go "click", but I think we should also be concerned about the guy who racks the slide (or does a traditional type of press check) and "discovers" that his gun was loaded. Its like the guy who has an ND and then says "it was unloaded"..... know the condition of your weapon and maybe reconsider the unattended loaded weapon situations.... (please, if it occurs to you, apply critical thinking skills before saying "but if you load and unload the gun constantly there is more chance for something going wrong!" ;) ).
I do empathize with the "heebie-jeebies" you might get if everyone starts racking the slide in the locker room, but if they can't rack the slide, how did they get the gun loaded in the first place?? Weapons handling in the locker room (or where-ever) is still weapons handling in the locker room.
Everyone is different.... I hear some press checks in locker room, some people load at the clearing barrel in the armory and some take their weapons home everyday. Some people may never maniplulate their weapons away from the range... :confused:
I still maintain that the guy who doesn't really know whether his gun is loaded or not is a little creepy. It's bad when you step up to the line and go "click", but I think we should also be concerned about the guy who racks the slide (or does a traditional type of press check) and "discovers" that his gun was loaded.
Who would that be? I must have missed something in this thread....
I don't carry a gun for a living. I don't have a permit to carry concealed. I do have a loaded gun in the house 24/7.
I rely mostly on the loaded chamber indicators. That tells me there is a round in the chamber and that I have successfully seated the magazine allowing the gun to do what it was designed to do.
The rifles are a different problem. I do the push-pull thing with an open bolt. Then I hit the bolt release. I trust that the push-pull technique ensures the magazine is seated to the point where it will feed properly. I trust that if the bolt goes home without hanging up, there is a round in the chamber.
I suppose if I ever get burned on the range where there wasn't a round chambered after the push-pull, then I'll change my mind. So far, I've only been burned when I didn't push-pull.
If I were going out to face hadji, I might not be so sanguine about it.
ETA: What I am obsessively anal about its making sure a weapon is clear. I'll look and finger-**** the hell out of the chamber to make sure.
Rob Pincus
11-22-07, 01:38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus
I still maintain that the guy who doesn't really know whether his gun is loaded or not is a little creepy. It's bad when you step up to the line and go "click", but I think we should also be concerned about the guy who racks the slide (or does a traditional type of press check) and "discovers" that his gun was loaded.
Who would that be? I must have missed something in this thread....
S-1,
That would be anyone who says that they weren't sure their gun was loaded and then finds out that it is. It may make people feel better to say "confirm"..... but I think "discover" puts it in a better light.
****
Dport,
That makes a lot of sense. You are much more concerned about an accident than about being on duty with an empty gun, so you "confirm"/"discover" that your pistol empty when you are done shooting. Personally, I insist that people lock guns open when moving them around administratively. I consider every gun that is in battery to be loaded.
I honestly do not lose a lot of sleep over the act of chambering the round having a negative effect on any aspect of modern ammo in a modern gun (pressure, or otherwise). That round is designed to be chambered as part of the process and the physics of the process dictate that repeated chambering should not have a compounding effect. This may not be the case for homegrown reloads (which is where probably where the concern for this type of things come from: competition world, etc...), but I don't sweat it for factory ammo and wouldn't design a manipulation procedure around it.
*****
While not something to "loose sleep over", you might want to reconsider this. It happens on a regular basis with factory ammo, not just remanufactured ammo. It is especially bothersome with .40 as it is already at a higher pressure under normal conditions...set the round back a few thousandths and things start to get even more interesting. The manufacturers design the round to be chambered once (or twice in the case of the one company who would actually answer the question). That round doesn't just smoothly glide up into the chamber w/o making contact with anything. The bullet impacts the feed ramp and the top of the chamber with some force.
Maybe not something to change a TTP over, but certainly something to be aware of.
As far as whether the mag is seated or the gun in battery that's part of the press check procedure. Push the slide shut, don't just allow the recoil spring to return the slide to battery. When you seat the mag give the floor plate a little tug ("Did we cover push pull?"). The press check is just additional insurance in confirming the condition of your weapons.
Again...I'm not promoting that press checks should be done at the start of every string of fire or every time you clear the holster, but if there is any doubt why not be sure.
I rarely perform press checks. Where indicated or so inclined, I check for brass with an overhand method on the rear serrations on a handgun (consistent with operation of the slide on stoppage), or partial retraction of the bolt in long guns.
Running the slide/bolt and replacing the round can be fine too. I disagree with the other poster(s) about bullet setback. It can indeed be an issue, esp with multiple rechamberings. Some loads tolerate it better than others.
I've found press checks most useful in the training environment, where guns may be in various conditions depending on the instructor, previous drills, range policies, etc.
Push-pull, always.
I don't use a clearing barrel. They are useful where the lowest common denominator frequents, or where insurance requires it, though.
Rob Pincus
11-22-07, 12:49
My problem with the "clearing barrels" is that the only people who "know" the gun is clear are the ones standing right there when the trigger is pulled... after that, I've seen too many people wave the guns around thoughtlessly because they "know" the gun is clear... people around them have no idea.... Lock the gun open or treat it like it's loaded!
****
Back to the chambering tangent:
While not something to "loose sleep over", you might want to reconsider this. It happens on a regular basis with factory ammo, not just remanufactured ammo...
What, exactly, happens? I pay somewhat close attention and I am unaware of any malfunction or injury caused by the chambering & re-chambering of a non-defective-to-start-with factory loaded defensive round. I'm not trying to be a smart-a** here... I'd really like to know if there is a body of information on this that I've missed. No argument that the OAL can shorten and therefore increase pressure... the question is does it really cause a practical problem?
*******
I've had 9mm, .45 and 5.56mm ammo all suffer bullet setback from repeated chamberings (clearing barrel on some of the more anal FOB's) -
A press check done slowly and just back enought to verify brass should not cause much issue for setback -- that try to shoot you carry ammo routinely should ensure it does not cause an issue to bite you.
Erick Gelhaus
11-22-07, 13:23
The press check, more correctly the chambered round verification, is an administrative skill, movement. If you are pulling your pistol to do it before you pull your pistol then you’ve gone overboard. You also aren’t clarifying what you think you are hearing. Part of the student’s responsibility is to ask why.
As for one relying on a loaded chamber indicator … well, I guess you violate Rule #2 because your safety is on as well? It is a mechanical piece of gear. As a result it can fail, debris can get stuck in or under it. I choose not to rely on a loaded chamber indicator and to instead rely upon a tactile verification of a round having been chambered.
Again, the CRV is primarily an administrative function.
When do I it? Anytime the weapon in question has been off of my person - so before I leave the house, before I leave the locker room (as my work pistol generally stays at work), before I leave the sally port at the jail. It is part of my routine anytime I load an unloaded weapon – loading after cleaning, on the firing line, before rolling out the gate of the FOB I was on.
In those settings it is merely being sure. The parachute rigger motto is “I will be sure, always” … what a concept.
If you as a student have a question about the viability of a technique, ask the instructor why he believes in that method. Heck, ask what his real world experience with it is.
I used to teach two ways of verifying a chambered round with the M4/M16 family. One involved the magazine and the location of the top round before and after pulling & releasing the charging handle; the other involved pulling the charging handle slightly rearward to look / feel for the round on the face of the bolt carrier. Before my deployment to the Middle East, I taught both methods, as I believed in giving people options. I taught both methods to those who deployed with me.
However, early on during our time in the Cesspool of Modern Civilization, I saw Soldiers induce malfunctions by pulling the charging handle too far rearward. Why? They were jacked up. Plain and simple. Now, based on that experience, I only teach the verification method that involves the magazine.
There are times and places to verify a round is in the chamber; just like there are times & places to do a tactical reload. If an instructor sees the student isn’t getting it, its up to the instructor to correct it. And if the student isn’t processing the “whys” then the student needs to ask why.
Rob Pincus
11-22-07, 13:30
Thanks for the input, Erick... Yet another familiar face over here at M4!
"Questions-Comments-Concerns": We need to hear them all and encourage them repeatedly from students.
****
Happy Thanksgiving.
-RJP
As for one relying on a loaded chamber indicator … It is a mechanical piece of gear. As a result it can fail, debris can get stuck in or under it. I choose not to rely on a loaded chamber indicator and to instead rely upon a tactile verification of a round having been chambered.
Have you ever experienced a "false positive" with a LCI? Is your point more theoretical in nature or is this a real problem?
A weapon is made up of many mechanical parts/subsystems that could fail, but we don't check each system immediately prior to or after each reload. We don't check trigger function, ejector function, extractor function, etc., so I'm not so sure we should believe the LCI is any more apt to fail than any other mechanical subsystem.
Am not knocking that you prefer to visually check, it is an effective method for accomplishing the task at hand. But I am wondering why the singling out of a LCI as a subsystem that you're not willing to rely on?
John_Wayne777
11-22-07, 14:23
Am not knocking that you prefer to visually check, it is an effective method for accomplishing the task at hand. But I am wondering why the singling out of a LCI as a subsystem that you're not willing to rely on?
Depends on the LCI.
The S&W M&P LCI works good....the LCI on the Beretta 92 not so much, in my opinion. (The extractor is actually listed as an LCI on the Beretta 92...)
On some weapons there *is* no LCI.
Thus if you are a guy who uses multiple weapons then using the more traditional forms of checking for a loaded chamber might be a good idea.
On some weapons there *is* no LCI.
Thus if you are a guy who uses multiple weapons then using the more traditional forms of checking for a loaded chamber might be a good idea.
Good point. Keeping it simple across multiple platforms makes sense.
Rob Pincus
11-22-07, 15:06
Hey! look at that.. we're back to: Efficient and Consistent.
;)
Back to the chambering tangent: What, exactly, happens? I pay somewhat close attention and I am unaware of any malfunction or injury caused by the chambering & re-chambering of a non-defective-to-start-with factory loaded defensive round. I'm not trying to be a smart-a** here... I'd really like to know if there is a body of information on this that I've missed. No argument that the OAL can shorten and therefore increase pressure... the question is does it really cause a practical problem?
With rechambering or two (or three, or...) perhaps not. I've seen multiple rechamberings in LE apps where enough of the case mouth was exposed to hang the cartridge during feed. More suspeptibility in some systems and some particular rounds, but something to watch for. Admittedly, not a flaw of the technique or principle, but rather the operator. Still, something that should be contemplated.
Pressures can ulitamately be of concern, too. Stack variables like set-back, on a vulnerable pressure curve, on minimally engineered brass, on some missing case support, and you may have a bad day.
What, exactly, happens? I pay somewhat close attention and I am unaware of any malfunction or injury caused by the chambering & re-chambering of a non-defective-to-start-with factory loaded defensive round. I'm not trying to be a smart-a** here... I'd really like to know if there is a body of information on this that I've missed. No argument that the OAL can shorten and therefore increase pressure... the question is does it really cause a practical problem?
Granted, this is an extreme situation wrt the number of re-chamberings, but here's an apparent setback-induced kaBoom in a DOE Glock 22: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/setback.html
Mark
What, exactly, happens? I pay somewhat close attention and I am unaware of any malfunction or injury caused by the chambering & re-chambering of a non-defective-to-start-with factory loaded defensive round. I'm not trying to be a smart-a** here... I'd really like to know if there is a body of information on this that I've missed. No argument that the OAL can shorten and therefore increase pressure... the question is does it really cause a practical problem?
*******
I have witnessed several failures to feed that can be traced back to the bullet being set too far back into the case. While it has not happened to me, I would venture to guess that at least a few of the KBs that have occured with factory ammo are a result of excessive bullet set back.
As Eric stated (hey Dude!!!!! :D ) a properly conducted press check (or loaded chamber verification if you preferr) does not induce bullet set back thus eliminating any potential issue.
I don't see the "issue" with doing a press check/loaded chamber verification just to ensure that there is a round chambered, and I much prefer it to unloading and then reloading the gun as you had suggested. It seems a lot more efficent then unloading and reloading as previously suggested. The press check/LCV gives some guys a "warm fuzzy" and may even be part of their ritual preperation for hitting the street or starting a stage. In the 8 years I worked as an Adjunct for HK and the training I've conducted since then I usually give the students an oppurtunity to do a press check on their weapons at the begining of a drill, and as I stated earlier I do one any time the weapon leaves my direct control and at the start of every day.
-Joe Riedy
PS: Rob we met down at the SWAT round-up.
Erick Gelhaus
11-23-07, 13:28
Have you ever experienced a "false positive" with a LCI? Is your point more theoretical in nature or is this a real problem?
Valid question and my answer is Don't Know.
My issue / duty weapons are: Rem 870, Colt 6721 (16", collapsible, etc), and 1911A1. My off-duty weapon is also a 1911A1. None of them have LCIs. So using a chamber indicator is not a viable option with these.
The Beretta 92F (M9) I have has an external extractor that could be viewed as an LCI. However, put on gloves - which that vast majority of the deployed Mil has to - and I would have an extremely difficult time discerning whether or not a round was chambered.
While just confirming that on the 92F, I also checked a Glock 19 and an S&W M&P. Both of which have an alleged LCI feature. The Glock's is on the extractor and the MP's is in the form of a cut out atop the chamber. Putting on a (leather / nomex) glove, I barely feel the raised spot. If I can't positively feel it, it is an issue.
The Smith M&P LCI requires a sufficient amount of light to see at least a reflection from the case. If I need light to see it, it is an issue.
Rely on something I may or may not feel? Rely on something I need sufficient light to confirm?
I prefer a technique that will work whether the sun is out or not, whether I'm bare handed or in gloves. I want a technique that will work regardless of any external factors that may have inserted themselves.
Based on my experiences in LE & the Mil and my training, I do not rely upon the different LCIs out there. Instead, I go with the thumb or index finger of my support hand and what it feels.
Hopefully this answers your question.
Valid question and my answer is Don't Know.
My issue / duty weapons are: Rem 870, Colt 6721 (16", collapsible, etc), and 1911A1. My off-duty weapon is also a 1911A1. None of them have LCIs. So using a chamber indicator is not a viable option with these.
I prefer a technique that will work whether the sun is out or not, whether I'm bare handed or in gloves. I want a technique that will work regardless of any external factors that may have inserted themselves.
Hopefully this answers your question.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. When gloves are tossed in and you are operating in the dark, I can definitely see your point. And of course, for weapons where no LCI exists, that goes without saying.
As a civilian whose main interest is in protecting my wife and my home, I still view the loaded chamber check as an admin action in most cases. Given that assumption, this ought to be able to be performed in sufficient light to be able to verify whether or not the LCI hardware is indicating the presence of a loaded chamber. Whether I'm finishing up at my cleaning bench and loading the weapon, in my bedroom with the overhead light on (before I hear the bump in the night), or at the range (daylight hours only), I'm always able to visually observe external mechanisms on my weapons. I'm not reliant on tactile confirmation. I'm not faced with the scenario of chasing the bad guy down the dark alley, but regardless, I don't envision that being the time a LEO choses to execute this procedure.
Still, as was mentioned above, when using a variety of firearms, a standard protocol simplifies things so I don't have any issue for anyone that choses to resort to an alternate procedure that has the benefit of exposing more of the cartridge, to allow either a better view of things or to get more of your paw in there to feel for it.
John_Wayne777
11-23-07, 21:41
Hey! look at that.. we're back to: Efficient and Consistent.
;)
My bad.
It won't happen again, I promise....
Patrick Aherne
11-24-07, 00:55
Anytime my pistol has been out of my possession, before I holster it, I verify that there is a round in the chamber. I do this with the pinky finger of my off-hand. I have had times where I have pulled my rifle out of the rack, unassed the vehicle, racked the charging handle and put the dot on a potential target. All in less than five seconds. Stuff happens.
I would prefer to have time to remove the rifle from the rack, remove the magazine from the well, feel which side of the mag the top round is on, insert, push-pull and run the charging handle. Then remove the mag, feel for the top round to be on the other side and re-insert + push-pull.
I once did a bastardized version of this (no push pull) while the first on the scene of a home invasion homicide/robbery. It sucked cowering behind a brick pillar for cover, hearing my mag bounce on the deck and watching rounds spill out. It sucked very much. I can't tell you the feeling I had in the pit of my stomach, imagining that the lay-back guy might be coming to whack me and I had an empty rifle. Wise men learn from other's experiences; I'm not so wise, but I have been lucky. Luck is an unreliable quantity and surely not a tactical plan of action. I have been a fan of chambered round verification, push-pull, etc. since that day.
If all you're gonna do is play guns; go ahead, have fun. If your use of a firearm might entail your appearance at a shooting affray, I highly recommend making sure you have bullets in said firearm when the event commences.
Perhaps the guy that overdoes the press checking is reacting to an obsessive-compulsive impulse which is often the cause of unnecessary repetitive behaviors. If so, then he has a really bad habit that will be difficult to break.
At home, I keep a cocked and locked 1911 in a Bianchi holster with thumb-snap strap separating hammer and frame when snapped. To inspect the chamber, I insert a dowell rod into barrrel, and if it protrudes beyond the holster, then I have confirmed a loaded chamber. Note that weapon is strapped into holster during this procedure.
Williejc
I'm a simple guy.. I press check when I feel the need to .. it's quick and simple... anytime I go hot.. I press check.. since I like to be on Hot ranges.. I only need to do it occasionally..
Never really put a lot of thought into it... hell.. most shooters I know don't know what a Press check or LCV is....;)
Rob, I'm not really sure that's such a good idea as cycling the ammo through the gun causes bullet set back (as I'm sure you are aware).
ESPECIALLY with .40 S&W and any caliber of Remington Golden Sabre in my experience.
My problem with the "clearing barrels" is that the only people who "know" the gun is clear are the ones standing right there when the trigger is pulled... after that, I've seen too many people wave the guns around thoughtlessly because they "know" the gun is clear... people around them have no idea.... Lock the gun open or treat it like it's loaded!
****
Back to the chambering tangent:
What, exactly, happens? I pay somewhat close attention and I am unaware of any malfunction or injury caused by the chambering & re-chambering of a non-defective-to-start-with factory loaded defensive round. I'm not trying to be a smart-a** here... I'd really like to know if there is a body of information on this that I've missed. No argument that the OAL can shorten and therefore increase pressure... the question is does it really cause a practical problem?
*******
I know for a fact, a DOE fixed site facility KB'd a G22. The cause of which was directly traced to a bullet set back, due to multiple chamberings.
My site now has a gauge at the loading/clearing barrel, and any suspect ammo is switched out.
As far as press checks, I'm pretty much with Erick and Buck on it. Its admin, and does no harm. Most of the time we have to clear our weapons when we leave the line, then secure them in the holster, so leaving it locked open isn't an option. When returning to the line and amking ready, I press check both long and short guns. I've never pressed check in the middle of a string of fire, in the shoothouse, etc. unless I had cleared amalfunction and felt the need for it, but I can't think of ever having done that.
If the student does it, constantly, either he's got OCD, or he wasn't instructed properly.
As for the type of press check,
I'll use the cross over for the long gun, because it quicker and simpler. Its also easier to insure the mag is reseated properly. But. I've been known to use the charging handle, and close the bolt with the forward assist.
The short gun, I use the over the top method, the weak hand grasps the slide at the rear, thumb pointing to the shooter, retract slightly, view the round, if limited visibility, I'll reach up with the trigger finger, and verify. the physically shut the slide. This is the method Paul Howe taught, and I find it works well.
i'm not gonna eject live rounds all over the place though.
For some the press check is just a mental prep, that puts your mind at ease, occupies it with other thoughts, etc.
Bob
I'm not sure why you'd press check after making ready - when I ready I'm aware by the feel and noise if a round was chambered or not.
Like I said previosuly the only time I will press check is while getting jocked up to go out.
Kevin,
If the guns have been in the rack, or otherwise put up, for say luch, etc. When I return to the line, and load, I do the press checks.
If they remained loaded, I don't.
Bob
HolyRoller
11-26-07, 22:42
Here's what I do before going on duty:
At our sheriff department, with 60+ sworn working out of one small building, we don't have locker rooms, clearing barrels, or any designated gun handling areas. We're supposed to show up good to go. Nearly all of the full-time deputies have take-home cars, but as an auxiliary deputy, I don't. I have to have my junk together before I leave the house.
Part of transferring stuff from my civvy pockets to the uniform is the Smith 637 in its Wild Bill's Concealment pocket holster. I withdraw it from the holster, open the cylinder, and see that all primers are intact. Then I lift it over my head and look up at all the nice hollowpoints. Close cylinder, reholster, and slip holster into its correct pocket. A speedloader goes in another pocket. I'm glad I do this check because one time I opened an empty revolver, having not reloaded after my last dryfire and speedloader practice session. That also meant that I'd been walking around for a couple days with an empty gun. Like the Navy fighter pilots say, this could get you seriously killed--or far worse, you might end up looking bad.
After I get the duty belt on, I take my Springfield TRP out of its off-duty Summer Heat IWB, also from Wild Bill's (good guys and gals, btw, and proof that you don't have to deposit a thousand bucks and wait a decade for quality leather) and instead of a press check, I only have to look at the teeny-tiny slot that Springfield thoughtfully cut into the top of the breech to see the gleam of nickel-plated brass. I've never had a false positive and never caught my 1911 empty when it wasn't supposed to be, partly because I always reload with duty ammo immediately after live fire or cleaning.
Now it's out to the POV and off to the department, where I usually have to wait until whoever I'm riding with is passing by Central. When we hook up, I take my plate carrier with Level IV standalones and my rifle case over to their car and set them carefully in the trunk. Our policy, probably a good one, is to keep longarms in cruiser safe or condition III, empty chamber, full mag, on-safe. I unzip the rifle case containing my Smith M&P-15 and push-pull the mag (again, it only takes one incident of discovering at EOW that the mag was loose in the case--having forgotten that I'd taken the mag out before storing it for vacation--to learn the importance of push-pull checks), function-test the weaponlight, and rotate the Short Dot illumation knob to 7 for night or 8 for day. If I need the carbine more than 8 hours later--the time limit when Schmidt & Bender decided that ALL cops' shifts are over and programmed the dot to automatically turn off--the Short Dot is still a riflescope with regular crosshairs visible by sunlight or weaponlight, so I'm still good until I have a second to rotate the illume knob one notch forward and back.
About the bullet setback from repeated chamberings, the term is "stubbed round" so if it happens often enough to have a name, that may mean that factory rounds are not as well-designed as we might hope. It varies by weapon design and cartridge. I have measured some of my service rounds and found that at least in the 1911, the bullets hit the feedramp hard enough for some to start coming up a few thousandths short. Since I only get 15 duty rounds for the whole year, I have to unload them whenever I shoot, and I mix them up so that the abuse gets spread evenly throughout the fleet. I've been handloading .45 ACP for awhile and haven't blown anything up yet. I like to think .45 ACP is a little more forgiving than some other cartridges about seating depth, since there's only 5-6 grains of powder and a fair amount of air in the case. I don't worry at all about stubbing rounds in my Beretta 92 because the top round sits almost level with the chamber and doesn't take a big hit when it goes home.
Frogman, who is a AD SEAL and moderator over at Tactical Forums gave his opinion about this particular article in SWAT magazine. He also mentioned "press checks" in his post.
Gentlemen,
Today I bought S.W.A.T. ("weapons, training and tactics for the real world") magazine for the first time because I disagreed with just about everything in a particular article. I felt so strongly about it that I wanted to be sure I quoted the author correctly when I took him to task for it publicly, so I purchased a magazine that I normally would have left behind.
In the December, 2007 issue of S.W.A.T. on page 54 is an article entitled "Bad habits? One trainers opinion", by *edit*. The author's point seemed to be that he was in a unique position to view an evolutionary process in the works concerning combative training techniques with firearms and chose a few key examples to highlight his keen observation.
Certainly we are in a continually evolving process of learning how best to fight the fight at hand given the latest knowledge of our selves, our enemies, and the equipment available to us for this fight. My viewpoint is from the side of the fence that has actually fought trained combatants who did their very best to kill me and my Team on their turf more than once and we prevailed. I spent many hours on ranges training for those days and many more since preparing for the times it may happen again. After re-reading the article several times I could not shake the sense that *edit* experience is entirely colored by time spent on a range, and nothing more. The examples he chose to use for 'bad habits" had plenty of things that could have been said about them that are relevant. The meat of each point was completely lacking and revealed more about the author's lack of real experience than I believe he intended.
The particular points used to illustrate 'bad habits" were:
"Tactical" (*edit* italics) Reloads
Press Checks
"I'm Out"
and
Speed Re-holstering
Having spent years on ranges training others and being trained myself for war, and further having validated and sifted through prior techniques in the light of a gunfight survivor a few times I was actually encouraged when I saw the examples chosen by *edit*. But the content of each example was utter trash.
Allow me to dissect.
"Tactical" Reloads
*edit*states that "a "tactical" reload is just another version of topping off..." and goes on to both blame competitive shooters and instructors who he thinks are dinosaurs with fostering a bad habit which he has done his best to eradicate.
I'm here to tell you that I have yet to exchange rounds with the enemy and not perform a tactical reload...and thank God for that because someone on our side may not have made it out if I hadn't taken the opportunities that I did to top off. The day I am faced with more shoot targets than I have bullets in the magazine to effectively deal with I will surely execute a super slick transition to my sidearm or speed reload, range and threat dependant.
*edit*holds a great deal of knowledge about the type of "critical incidents" we are all likely to face saying, "the vast majority of critical incidents that require more rounds than your gun holds will result in a slide lock situation. This is Bad."
Really? I question how he knows this. I have surely been in more real gunfights than he and I do not feel qualified to state what anyone will likely encounter. I find that to be a really arrogant statement. I have already stated that I have never locked a bolt or slide to the rear in a fight and always took the first opportunity presented to top off (and press check) before the fight turned its attention directly on me again. That said, if I had shot as necessary until the action locked open how is this "bad"? It's not bad...it's what happens sometimes. So what? I find a speed reload far easier to execute than a tactical one.
The biggest tell that *edit*is a range commando and little more comes with this comment "The concept is simple: If there is shooting and there is a lull in the action, you don't need to move, you don't need to communicate with someone and you don't need to do something else. You do need to have a fully loaded gun."
Wow. If *edit* truly believes this and I have to face a life and death struggle again in my lifetime than I hope it is with him or someone he trained. Lulls in gunfights are created by people sustaining wounds, communicating/organizing, and moving. Do nothing but load during a lull and you will die with a loaded gun. You are outside the OODA loop if you are not communicating and moving or improving your position during a lull.
The concept is not simple it is brutal. Your eternity and the futures of those close to you will rest on your marksmanship ability, your ability to communicate what you perceive to those who can help you, and your ability to either out maneuver or better direct the movement of other friendly forces who can apply themselves against your enemy while the enemy is at a disadvantage. Moving on....
Press Checks
I am an advocate of the "slingshot method" of press checking. I want to see what is going on in the breech area when I pull the action slightly out of battery, and I want to ensure that the action went fully back into battery before I re-enter the fight. *edit* uses the word "administrative" as though it is something used only by amateurs in this example. There is a wise old saying in SOF that I'll share that goes "Amateurs argue tactics, professionals practice logistics", and it's true. Who cares if *edit* gave you a sheepskin from Valhalla if when you enter a fight you didn't make sure your weapon would fire by conducting a press check when you had a chance in a cleared or momentarily safe room/area? Is this an administrative chore? You bet. You do administrative chores in combat. Knowing when they are appropriate is the key. But they are necessary to win.
"I'm out"
If you know you're empty, than good on you. It's either time to go big with a knife, your fists, or your footwear....or ask a friend for some bullets. But reaching for your empty mag pouch because that's what *edit* had you do every time you shot empty is just stupid. If you aren't sure, reach. But when you know you're out of ammo, what is the point? Awareness is key in a death fight. Being inside the OODA loop is very important. I wouldn't waste time with semantics if I knew my ammunition was totally depleted. It's time to move on with the next plan at that point.
My last gripe...
Speed Re-holstering
I honestly thought that *edit* was going to eschew the practice of quickly stabbing a pistol back into its holster during repetitive practice, and I thought he'd at least end this waste of type space with a valid concept. There have been several folks that I know of who have been shot re-holstering their weapons. I teach that there is never a big hurry to put one away, that action should be done with deliberation. There is usually a good reason to deploy one quickly, though. Anyway..
Nope.
*edit* is actually worried about us relaxing after we kill someone, assess the threat, scan, reload ( I added "reload", *edit*omitted the reload portion) and re-holster our weapons. Huh. By the time all of that happens I can tell you that attempting to relax is good advice.
To sum this up. I expect more from S.W.A.T. This article was weak. It's going up in our training departments next to the other public blunders we post and make fun of. Our country is full of a whole new generation of seasoned veterans who know a thing or two about killing and not being killed. You can't sell this kind of pap to them under the guise of serious tradecraft for long. I would not send a member of my team to *edit*camp for training because he either has no idea what he is talking about, or he cannot effectively communicate what he knows and thinks. Regardless, time spent in his presence would be a waste in my opinion.
Frogman
Jay Cunningham
11-29-07, 19:02
Frogman, who is a AD SEAL and moderator over at Tactical Forums gave his opinion about this particular article in SWAT magazine. He also mentioned "press checks" in his post.
Thanks for posting that - very interesting perspective.
Frogman is an extraordinarily experienced senior NSW warrior whom I personally know; like Larry Vickers, you can take his comments to the bank: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001091;p=1#000015
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m49/civ-guy/vote_2007_civ.jpg
HolyRoller
11-29-07, 20:48
"Lulls in gunfights are created by people sustaining wounds, communicating/organizing, and moving. Do nothing but load during a lull and you will die with a loaded gun."
This is sig line material.
"I am an advocate of the "slingshot method" of press checking. I want to see what is going on in the breech area when I pull the action slightly out of battery, and I want to ensure that the action went fully back into battery before I re-enter the fight."
Makes sense to me.
"I honestly thought that *edit* was going to eschew the practice of quickly stabbing a pistol back into its holster during repetitive practice, and I thought he'd at least end this waste of type space with a valid concept. There have been several folks that I know of who have been shot re-holstering their weapons. I teach that there is never a big hurry to put one away, that action should be done with deliberation. There is usually a good reason to deploy one quickly, though."
In short, engage quickly but disengage slowly ... where have we heard this before? It bears repeating.
"This article was weak. It's going up in our training departments next to the other public blunders we post and make fun of."
I'd pay about a thousand bucks for a hi-res pic of that bulletin board, not least because I'm probably on it.
N.Y.45 ACP
11-29-07, 21:04
Frogman ,
Thank you for the informative post.
I appreciate reading info learned from real world experience and your ability to explain your reasons why things should be done.
More importantly, thank you for your service to our country.
Ed
Rob Pincus
11-29-07, 21:36
Thanks for adding Frogman's thoughts, S1... Sometimes these forums become way too jaded to one thought process or another... the sharing of ideas and opinions is how we progress.
I am also a moderator at Tac-For and have posted a response to Frogman's thoughts, for those of you who would like to read that thread in its entirety and see additional opinions:
http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001091
KevinB,
Well put. That was the point of the article... Loading a gun properly should be the point when you're on a training range making ready.
-RJP
KintlaLake
11-29-07, 22:04
Sometimes these forums become way too jaded to one thought process or another... the sharing of ideas and opinions is how we progress.
Considering the pointed nature of Frogman's critique, Rob, you're to be commended for responding in a collegial and straightforward manner.
Thanks for demonstrating how dispensing with ego advances the art. We all could take a lesson from that.
Matt Edwards
11-29-07, 22:35
It good to see that we are not alone. I've never though of "press checking" of "plusing up" as "administrative." Necesary, yes, but not "adminastrative."
Sounds as if Frogman knows of what he speaks...
Try as we might, there is just no substitute for some things.
Erick Gelhaus
11-30-07, 04:20
I guess I am not understanding why it was "suggested" to S-1 that he edit out a name of a person who's been pretty active in this thread?
I guess I am not understanding why it was "suggested" to S-1 that he edit out a name of a person who's been pretty active in this thread?
I asked him to edit the name because at the time he PM'd me about posted the article I was on my Blackberry and could not read the post on Tac Forums while driving down the highway.
To be on the safe side I asked him to edit the name because I didn't know the context of the post or the thread.
John_Wayne777
11-30-07, 08:20
"Lulls in gunfights are created by people sustaining wounds, communicating/organizing, and moving. Do nothing but load during a lull and you will die with a loaded gun."
Perhaps there is some confusion over terms at work here....
FWIW, I've always been trained that a "lull" in a gunfight is a period of time where I do not now have an eminent threat to deal with nor do I have any reason to expect one to show up.
IE, a partner and I have just cleared a room. We have engaged three bad guys in this room. There are no more threats in this room. We are about to stack up to head into unknown space in which we can expect more of the same.
Now would be a good time to put in more bullets and make sure my weapon is in working order before heading into territory where I suspect I will have to deal with more people who want to kill me.....
Etcetera.
Edit -- This isn't something that takes 10 minutes....you give your weapon a quick once over to make sure the thing isn't jammed and you get a fresh mag in there (either retaining the other one or leaving it as the case may be)...all while you are moving and preparing to do what you have to do next.
Matt Edwards
11-30-07, 10:14
I agree,
This is not just a good idea, but I think it is requierd to know what the status of your weapon is BEFORE you step into the unknown. If there is a "lull", check your weapon status (I want to SEE or FEEL brass. A "bump" on the gun WON'T do), reconfigure you mags if need be, and drive on.
I can see the semantics game comming on soon....
IMO, The point being presented is: checking your weapon's status is a tertiary duty at best, aka it goes w/o saying. Maintain the inititive.
Square range, noncombatants get caught up in the masturbation of individual thought process ala individual actions, reloading, etc. They simply haven't developed the mental framework for combat as a member of a team. Individuals, in combat zones, don't win fights.
What is paramount for combatants is MAINTAINING the INITATIVE; recognition of the tactical opportunities (for you & your opposition) in 360 degree+ orb of space around you & where you may move to, communication of same with peers & support units, and movement to/through the objective, or to areas which will be to your tactical advantage.
Rob Pincus
11-30-07, 10:31
Dan, I think you're spot on... some have chosen to ignore the point of the article and create a debate about the value of making sure your gun is loaded. That is such a non-issue that it is hard for me to get motivated about continuing the discussion for those who may still be interested in it. Seeing your post reminds me that there are still those out there thinking about the Problems & Solutions, not just "being right".
Thanks.
As a reminder: The article was about bad range habits, and the suggestion that we should understand the context of certain skills, practice them in that context and not just as "things to do". The article was also about what I think are better ways to do certain things that are more consistent with our necessary weapons handling skills, not new skill sets and fine motor skills to learn in an already complicated world.
For example, Frogman, in his fervor to assert his combative legitimacy, failed to notice that what I was criticizing in the "I'm out" section of the article was the lazy habit that many people have on a square range of getting to their last of three magazines (or 5 or 6 or whatever) and doing anything other than going through the motions of a slide-lock reload (or transition if using long gun). The guys who stand there with an empty gun and turn to look at the instructor and say "I'm out" aren't training for the infinitely more likely scenario of hitting their first empty mag and needing to do a reload. My point was that every time you reach slide lock it is bad and you should respond by doing something to fix it not relax because on the square range "it doesn't matter". Frogman and others can throw the "I've been in a gunfight, you haven't" trump card all day long to try to defend their points... I'm not going to debate them on that basis because there is no debate. Neither living through a bad incident while being part of an elite unit OR dissecting the bio-mechanics, human behavior, circumstances and physics of bad incidents while working with many elite units can or is guaranteed to yield all the answers, the two schools of thought/experience need to work together, not draw petty lines in the sand and try to force people to choose sides.
-RJP
Let me digress... I HAVE NOT READ THE AFORE MENTIONED ARTICLE and only commented the thread.
We're a wee short of magazine stands in my present local, so it will have to wait. I hesitate to sling spears at qoutes which I may take out of context.
The mantra of shoot, move, & communicate in my mind should be:
-move
-communicate
-shoot
I can teach any monkey to shoot, but many lack the mental agility and spatial awareness required in combat. And, stand by to take a dirt nap if you take a static position in a fight with my boys.
Thoughts on "press check" hell yes I do it all the time. I cycle the action & look. The tactile feel of the action of my weapon, in addition to weapons status lets me know how hot & dirty it is, if it's sustained damage, (you'd be suprised at the holes in your equipment you find later) and how I may need to take this into account. (SR25's don't like to run really hot for example, my shorty with a can needs lube after a few mags).
Submariner
11-30-07, 11:50
... the two schools of thought/experience need to work together, not draw petty lines in the sand and try to force people to choose sides.
-RJP
Do you mean like:
Weaver v. isosceles;
VFG v. no VFG;
BUIS up v. BUIS down;
absolute co-witness v. lower third;
VFG in v. VFG out;
Aimpoint v. Eotech;
squared v. bladed; and
Blue Force Vickers v. VTAC/LaRue?
Did I miss any?:rolleyes:
How much of this has to do with marketing and money? Oh, and ego?
Rob Pincus
11-30-07, 12:37
Precisely, Submariner... Its one of the reasons I try to not get into "debates", but rather have discussions. I'm on record, as are many other instructors, stating that we are always looking for new/better methods or to test our current ones in new realistic situations. My CFS book has been out for less than year and I just took delivery of the 5th printing and there have been 4 revisions to add information or change terminology/explanations because the program is constantly evolving. Hopefully, it will always be so. Others are more invested in a "this is how I teach" or "this is how we do it" mentality that puts them on the defensive against new ideas....some for financial reasons, others based on ego... the ideas don't have to be right or wrong, simply "different" in order to attract attack....
Dan,
Thanks for the added info... your "press check" sounds much more like what I am advocating: be consistent with the action of the weapon system (and if you have an addy that we can send a care package to, PM me....).
-RJP
Submariner
11-30-07, 13:10
..., the newest:
LaRue v. American Defense Manufacturing.
Training & Tactics
How to deploy your weapon
Please keep threads on target. IMO discussion & debate on the above specific forum titles welcome.
Commentary on social interaction & popular trends dilutes threads & you end up with random populist babble.
Halt! Step away from the magazine stand!
It sounds much better in German though.
Halten! Sie Schritt weg vom Zeitschriftgestell!
John Wayne 777
This isn't something that takes 10 minutes....you give your weapon a quick once over to make sure the thing isn't jammed and you get a fresh mag in there (either retaining the other one or leaving it as the case may be)...all while you are moving and preparing to do what you have to do next.
To me.. that makes pretty good sense.. I guess I don't get all the hub bub...
Jay Cunningham
12-01-07, 02:18
IE, a partner and I have just cleared a room. We have engaged three bad guys in this room. There are no more threats in this room. We are about to stack up to head into unknown space in which we can expect more of the same.
Referring to anyone in particular? :D
J_W777 and I performed room clearing in the recent Vickers/Hackathorn low light class. I probably should have performed a tactical reload after we cleared the second room... J_W777 actually reminded me but I was more concerned with the momentum of the thing and maintaining the initiative much like Dano5326 alluded to. As it turns out in the very last room I put one round into my bad guy and went to slide lock. Fortunately we had sorted out our communications before we went in so I took a knee and verbalized "reloading" and my partner covered me during my speed reload which did not take long.
OTOH, when defensively clearing by myself, I tac loaded (in the dark while wearing gloves) in a room I had just cleared. So yes, a tac load can be fumbled, but it requires some practice like anything else.
Thekatar's response in post 14 is pretty much my take on conducting press checks.
Demigod asked in post #15 if anyone remembers the "pinch check". Indeed I do. I remember the two versions of it - one for pistols w/o a guiderod, and another for pistols w/ a guiderod. If you're looking for a bit of nostalgia: in the movie "Heat", Robert DeNiro executes a pinch check with a Sig 226. And later in the film, Al Pacino executes the other version of it with an Officer's Model 1911. (Yes, yes, it's Hollywood but, it's the only readily available visual example of the pinch checks I know of for those who might never have seen them.)
Rob Pincus asked in post #18 if a press check is to be expected every time someone comes from the holster to make ready to shoot. I don't think so. I actually execute that sequence in reverse order - I press check every time the pistol is about to go into the holster. The whole point of press checking is to make sure the weapon is ready to come out of the holster hot; not to make sure it's ready after it's already out of the holster.
Someone said something to the effect of "how can someone not know if their weapon is loaded or not"? Happens all the time. People leave the house / station / range / FOB with no round in the chamber; and people in training courses start drills with a 'click'. I was recently at Bill Rogers school in Georgia, where I watched an excellent marksman start off a relay with a 'click' more than once. He never conducted a press check. Should he have been aware of the status of his weapon? Sure. A press check is one of those status indicators.
Loaded chamber indicators? I have no use for them, nor do I trust them. Call me old fashioned.
HolyRoller
12-01-07, 13:47
Yeah, a loaded chamber indicator doesn't know whether you really have a live round in there, or whether you forgot to extract the cartridge case or dummy round after dryfiring or malfunction drills.:eek: Relying only on your LCI could result in your personal mother of all "D'OHs."
Jay Cunningham
12-01-07, 13:54
Yeah, a loaded chamber indicator doesn't know whether you really have a live round in there, or whether you forgot to extract the cartridge case or dummy round after dryfiring or malfunction drills.:eek: Relying only on your LCI could result in your personal mother of all "D'OHs."
Quite honestly, a press check doesn't tell you that you have a live round in there either, just that there is a case.
John_Wayne777
12-01-07, 14:28
Referring to anyone in particular? :D
:D
J_W777 and I performed room clearing in the recent Vickers/Hackathorn low light class. I probably should have performed a tactical reload after we cleared the second room... J_W777 actually reminded me but I was more concerned with the momentum of the thing and maintaining the initiative much like Dano5326 alluded to. As it turns out in the very last room I put one round into my bad guy and went to slide lock. Fortunately we had sorted out our communications before we went in so I took a knee and verbalized "reloading" and my partner covered me during my speed reload which did not take long.
In all honesty your partner should have reloaded at least one more time during that little exercise too. After we got the third room clear I should have been reloading while we were getting into position to exit the room.
I think I had 5 rounds left in my magazine when all was said and done...far too few for comfort.
HolyRoller
12-01-07, 17:42
Quite honestly, a press check doesn't tell you that you have a live round in there either, just that there is a case.
D'OH!!!!
Well, at least you can tell it's not one of the funny-colored plastic dummy rounds, so I was almost half right ... phew ...
Some serious questions being asked of Mr. Pincus: http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001091;p=3#000066
Rob Pincus
12-06-07, 13:26
a PM would've been sufficient...but I checked and didn't really see any important questions, just a mis-represented incident with bad facts that had nothing to do with press checking.... :rolleyes:
I had written that thread off as a personality conflict dog-pile with nothing constructive going on though, so I am glad you brought THAT to my attention so that it could be corrected.
-RJP
Robb Jensen
12-06-07, 14:58
This thread has run its course.
Doc please don't drag other forums drama here.
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