View Full Version : Surefire MAG5-60 Magazine Review
MilitaryArms
10-30-11, 13:35
I have been looking forward to the release of the Surefire MAG5-60 quad stack magazines for a while, since the rumors first started circulating. I've had a chance to evaluate the mag now for a while, and here's a few thoughts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y0w3M_F158
Questions and comments are welcome.
pedropcola
10-30-11, 13:55
My biggest problem with this mag is clearly price. If I have a defective 10-14 dollar GI or pmag I identify it, fix it, or toss it and for less $$ than lunch with my wife, I move on. At 129 per, with very restrictive pricing by surefire, they are nuts. This thing will be a very niche device until they revisit pricing, which they probably won't. (Have you ever priced a SF knife? Heart stopping for what you are getting). Looks like fun but not for me.
Interesting results that definitely conflicts with most of what I have heard also. As you say, sample of 1 so that is nice to note. For my particular uses I don't see the 60 or 100 as something that I would use for a duty or deployment use however I can see how it could suit some users needs for practical and fun applications. Like any piece of gear etc, I would need to fully vet things for myself and I really have yet to toy with the mag, but will get to it soon. I appreciate the review.
I was going to pick one up at the gumshoe yesterday but I talked myself out of it after feeling the weight fully loaded.
I picked one up and will start checking it out when I get home next week. I wonder if Military Arms guy considered contacting Surefire and addressing his concerns with them.
You can bet that I will if there is an issue. Didn't LAV say that they used one in a class and it ran 100%?
Yes he did (LAV I mean) But arguably we have one example now that got positive and one example that got some negative. I haven't really followed any other reviews past LAV's initial post on it so I don't know if things are different with other examples of the mag one way or the other.
This is a product I hoped to see more input on from people running classes with them or maybe some more posts from LAV concerning them showing up in his classes. Maybe some other instructors commenting on their experience with students using them as well.
Defoor, Lamb, Costa. Surely they, or people giving some AAR's from class will comment.
Wondering if the reassembly was gtg and not causing any issues. Definitely a complex set up for a mag and I could see how it would be finicky if there any issues with reassembly. Just thinking out loud so to speak. :)
I've been in a holding pattern regarding these magazines. As with most new tech, I expect some teething issues, and I also expect prices to come down as the tech matures and other competitors enter the marketplace.
To be honest, given Surefire's reputation, I would have thought these magazines would have been 100% out-the-box, but it's good to note so far, experiences vary.
When prices came down, I was going to pick one up for my HD carbine.
Thanks for the review. Very helpful in gauging the magazines.
MilitaryArms
10-30-11, 16:37
I didn't disassemble the mag throughout my testing and only disassembled it at the very end of my review (last scene I shot before going into post). I did it in one take, so despite the fact it looks complex to do, it really isn't. Reassembly does seem like it takes 3 hands at times though.
As for reports of problems, I had people from both sides contact me. Some saying they've had no issues and others saying they have 3 of the mags which have the same issues mine has.
It seems like luck of the draw as to which one you'll get, a working one or a problematic one.
I will stick to P-Mags and even USGI contract mags. Surefire seems to promoting volume of fire over accuracy. I think training good and hard with regular magazine changes will be of greater benefit and prove more reliable.
ICANHITHIMMAN
10-31-11, 09:33
I still want some just not going to pay that price for it when Pmags are 10$.
A few observations:
When the camera goes close up on the ejection port after the malfunction with the AR, the bolt and BCG appear to be bone dry with a decent amount of carbon build up. If I was evaluating a magazine for reliability, I would try to eliminate as many variables and failure points as possible by cleaning and more importantly lubricating the rifle. Although the malfunction in the video DOES appear to be magazine related, the scientific method still demands better execution of the test if you are going to try to draw conclusions from it.
Second, I see only two applications where these magazines would be beneficial...
1) Open turret gunners. Backup M4's in the turret with a SF 60 or 100 rd magazine would be nice for obvious reasons. Since most gunners are riding slick for easy in and out, and loose magazines shouldn't be kept in the turret; doing a magazine change from the turret often involves crouching down and grabbing one from a shelf below. The high capacity SF magazines would minimize this.
2) Tracer only magazine. With a 7 magazine combat load, keeping one magazine full of only tracers and the rest with no tracers is a good way to go about it. When you have to mark targets, direct aircraft, set right/left limits etc. all you have to do is pop in the tracer mag. When you're done go back to your standards. However, 30 rounds usually isn't enough. One 60 round tracer mag makes more sense to me than two 30 round tracer mags because it would be harder to mix up with the non tracers because of the obvious size difference. Carrying one SF 60 rounder full of tracers is a great SOP for leaders or those who routinely communicate with aircraft.
There may be other scenarios where these magazines would be good, but these are two that immediately come to mind.
Thanks for the review...I don't really need one, but I'll get some just store away in case anti-gunners want to ban them.
I will stick to P-Mags and even USGI contract mags. Surefire seems to promoting volume of fire over accuracy. I think training good and hard with regular magazine changes will be of greater benefit and prove more reliable.
That is not what SF is promoting. What they are promoting is less mag changes.
My mag run runs very well by the way.
C4
Pistol Shooter
10-31-11, 15:48
My biggest problem with this mag is clearly price. If I have a defective 10-14 dollar GI or pmag I identify it, fix it, or toss it and for less $$ than lunch with my wife, I move on.
Agreed.
That is not what SF is promoting. What they are promoting is less mag changes.
C4
Which is fundamentally flawed.
This only legitimate application for this magazine in a real world scenario is for an automatic rifle like the Colt 750 or Colt IAR.
The way surefire presents this magazine in their advertising videos on the internet is embarrassing. Especially for a company that caters to a higher level of end user.
They make is seem this is fit for the average solider to use in a normal combat scenario.
Nobody is going to carry around this big long heavy thing. The average solider is not sophisticated enough to reassemble this thing properly with its series of springs.
Everybody knows I'm right about this, and nobody has the balls to call anyone out on it.
Which is fundamentally flawed.
This only legitimate application for this magazine in a real world scenario is for an automatic rifle.
From a Civy stand point, having 60rds in the gun should fix any issue that one would come across. While I am proficient with the art of the mag change, there is something to be said for NOT having to change mags in the middle of a gun fight.
I will be running this mag in the upcoming Vickers HD and CQB classes at Blackwater. Will report back.
C4
The average solider is not sophisticated enough to reassemble this thing properly with its series of springs.
Your other basic points may have some merit but this one is total bullshit. Back in the day I was an "average soldier" in a regular line Infantry Battalion before moving on to bigger and better things.
Guess what... myself and every single other "average" soldier in that unit could disassemble, reassemble, functions check and operate every single weapon in the arms room blindfolded, including the heavy weapons (MK19, M2). That's a regular line unit.
I don't know what you do for a living that makes you feel so superior to everybody else to the extent that you don't think an average soldier can disassemble / reassemble a simple magazine.
Sorry if this is seen as a derail, but statements like the above cannot just be accepted unchallenged.
MilitaryArms
10-31-11, 17:34
A few observations:
When the camera goes close up on the ejection port after the malfunction with the AR, the bolt and BCG appear to be bone dry with a decent amount of carbon build up. If I was evaluating a magazine for reliability, I would try to eliminate as many variables and failure points as possible by cleaning and more importantly lubricating the rifle. Although the malfunction in the video DOES appear to be magazine related, the scientific method still demands better execution of the test if you are going to try to draw conclusions from it.
How it appears to you and the actual condition of the bolt/carrier are different. The bolt wasn't "bone dry" at all, as a matter of fact if you look you'll see lubricant coming down across the bolt carrier just below the gas key. It had a modest amount of CLP on it, just as the military prescribes, before the shooting began.
You see some carbon, however not an excessive amount, built up on the rifle because we were shooting several hundred rounds through the rifle, 60 rounds at a time. It has a tendency to cause a little carbon to accumulate on the M16. :)
There may be other scenarios where these magazines would be good, but these are two that immediately come to mind.
The Marines might find them useful, if they worked, in their new IAR's too.
callen3615
10-31-11, 17:43
not worth it....for me atleast
bought 1 last week from a local store
Your other basic points may have some merit but this one is total bullshit. Back in the day I was an "average soldier" in a regular line Infantry Battalion before moving on to bigger and better things.
Guess what... myself and every single other "average" soldier in that unit could disassemble, reassemble, functions check and operate every single weapon in the arms room blindfolded, including the heavy weapons (MK19, M2). That's a regular line unit.
I don't know what you do for a living that makes you feel so superior to everybody else to the extent that you don't think an average soldier can disassemble / reassemble a simple magazine.
Sorry if this is seen as a derail, but statements like the above cannot just be accepted unchallenged.
LAV has said the same thing about the gas regulator on an FAL. Are you going to call bullshit on that as well?
infidelprodigy
10-31-11, 18:43
I would like to see the test done using a better lube than CLP. Slip, or even motor oil. CLP sucks as a high temp lube, especially for full auto.
That said, this is the first documented review involving any malfunctions I have seen. The only other time I have seen a 60rd. fail was after considerable use/dirt in it, used as a monopod with full weight of a person on it. Even then simple tap/rack fixed it.
I see these things getting vetted and in a year or less they will be put to good use around the globe with no issues. IAR jumps to mind.
For those of you taking a poo on the magazines performance. Have you at least contacted Surefire to tell them of your experience/ issue with the magazine(s). Have you requested a replacement or refund?
IAR jumps to mind.
They won't fit in an HK416 magazine well.
I think they actually do, you can tell by the photos of the earlier prototypes didn't but the ones now definitely got a tool modification. I just think the tool mod wasn't enough in the beginning.
look at the front area where the 416 would interfere by having a near flat lower entrance, also look at the different insert on the feed/loading ramps.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/208816/illinois-rifles-for-sale--surefire-60-round-ar-mag
MilitaryArms
11-01-11, 09:36
On other boards folks are talking about the failures they're having. It seems the biggest complaint is that the magazine stops pushing rounds up, like in the last failure I show in my video. Here's an example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgplvO6SncA
These reports are fairly widespread from what I can see.
But then not everyone is having such issues, obviously. My concern would be that such failures could happen at any time given the nature of the failures I've been seeing. It could also be exacerbated by improper reassembly after disassembly. This is something to be concerned with if you're using these mags for something other than gun games (i.e. LEO/military).
If you have one that works, I wouldn't take it apart unless I had to. :D
wedgehead30
11-01-11, 10:11
I picked one up from a local dealer last month. He told me that there's been some reported problems with them. Seems to be 50/50 on whether you get a good one or not. Apparently I lucked out and got a good one. I've run it in two matches and several range nights and it has been 100% reliable. When I first got it I didn't think I would like the extra weight. But it has proven to be a non-issue. It's really nice having 60 rounds on tap before a reload. Especially in a high round count match stage. That's my sampling of one, your results may vary. :D
I am still waiting for someone to tell me that they contacted Surefire customer service and notified them of the issue..................
I think they actually do, you can tell by the photos of the earlier prototypes didn't but the ones now definitely got a tool modification. I just think the tool mod wasn't enough in the beginning.
look at the front area where the 416 would interfere by having a near flat lower entrance, also look at the different insert on the feed/loading ramps.
http://www.armslist.com/posts/208816/illinois-rifles-for-sale--surefire-60-round-ar-mag
Can anyone else confirm this?
One was used at a Vickers Tactical Carbine 1 class last Sep with no issues. Larry took the time to discuss what he likes about the mag at one point. Sample of one and only two days and all that. YMMV.
MilitaryArms
11-01-11, 18:56
Yes, Surefire has been contacted.
No, I haven't heard back from them yet.
Once I do, I will document their response and the resolution.
Hunter Rose
11-01-11, 19:03
They won't fit in an HK416 magazine well.
They fit fine in the HK416 magwell. Here's a video where it's shown, go to the 2:00 mark.
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/10/24/whats-the-diff-between-the-m27-iar-and-the-hk416/
From a Civy stand point, having 60rds in the gun should fix any issue that one would come across. While I am proficient with the art of the mag change, there is something to be said for NOT having to change mags in the middle of a gun fight.
It also impedes the use of the gun when fighting out of a vehicle because it is big. I have no larger than a 20 round magazine inserted while traveling.
For those of you taking a poo on the magazines performance. Have you at least contacted Surefire to tell them of your experience/ issue with the magazine(s).
Like the board rules state?
The average solider is not sophisticated enough to reassemble this thing properly with its series of springs.
Which branch of the service were you in?
Stick,
In all fairness, we have tended to not be harsh on that, except in the case of site sponsors. That isn't a hard and fast rule.
Here is my line of thinking. Some companies don't give a shit about their products because they know it will always sell. Some companies do care and it's hard to expect them to fix a problem if all everyone does is complain and not provide any feedback.
In my experience that has not been the case with SF. Trust me. I have one waiting for me at the house and I am going to start dicking with it right away. If it screws up I will be contacting Surefire and providing them detailed feedback about it.
Like the board rules state?
RE: what the average combat-arms warfighter is or is not capable of doing...
Let's table the line of thought that they are perfectly capable or incapable of any particular thing.
Anybody that hails from the combat arms knows the parable of the "junior enlisted that gets issued 3 BBs," or one of the limitless variations. For those that are not familiar with this staple of US Armed Forces lore, it goes like something like this:
LCpl Douche MacGillicutty is issued 3 BBs from the armory. When, in the fullness of time, it comes to pass that he is turning his issued BBs back into the armory, one BB is perfect, one BB is smashed flat, and he'll swear on a stack of bibles that he was only issued 2 BBs.
Variation:
Private Party and Private Driveway have issued into their care the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each. They are left locked in a room with the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each for a period of 6hrs. Upon release from the room, they will have done one of three things to the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each: 1) London Bridged it 2) shattered it, or 3) eaten it. A particularly over-achieving pair will have managed to do all three.
It's no secret that the average American warfighter is no dummy, just as much as it's no secret that the average American warfighter, individually and collectively, has within him an enormous potential to screw up the simplest of tasks, and for no better reason than it's a day that ends in "y."
Balance.
PRGGodfather
11-01-11, 20:03
RE: what the average combat-arms warfighter is or is not capable of doing...
Let's table the line of thought that they are perfectly capable or incapable of any particular thing.
Anybody that hails from the combat arms knows the parable of the "junior enlisted that gets issued 3 BBs," or one of the limitless variations. For those that are not familiar with this staple of US Armed Forces lore, it goes like something like this:
LCpl Douche MacGillicutty is issued 3 BBs from the armory. When, in the fullness of time, it comes to pass that he is turning his issued BBs back into the armory, one BB is perfect, one BB is smashed flat, and he'll swear on a stack of bibles that he was only issued 2 BBs.
Variation:
Private Party and Private Driveway have issued into their care the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each. They are left locked in a room with the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each for a period of 6hrs. Upon release from the room, they will have done one of three things to the M1A1 Ball, Bowling, US, One Each: 1) London Bridged it 2) shattered it, or 3) eaten it. A particularly over-achieving pair will have managed to do all three.
It's no secret that the average American warfighter is no dummy, just as much as it's no secret that the average American warfighter, individually and collectively, has within him an enormous potential to screw up the simplest of tasks, and for no better reason than it's a day that ends in "y."
Balance.
What he said.
When it comes to Marines, the version I always heard:
"If you take a Marine, give him two steel balls and lock him in a hermetically sealed room. He will lose one, and the other will be pregnant."
And I mean that in the best possible way. ;o)
Like the board rules state?
The board rules do not say we can't discuss a widespread issue with several examples posted on youtube and on other forums.
This surefire magazine issue is approaching scandal territory.
The rules say we are suppose to contact the vendor if we ourselves have an abnormal problem with a particular personal item.
It also impedes the use of the gun when fighting out of a vehicle because it is big. I have no larger than a 20 round magazine inserted while traveling.
I was just in a vehicle fighting class and used it. So it can be done. 20rd mags are nicer, but if I get into a shootout in a vehicle, I want a lot of ammo IN the gun.
C4
MilitaryArms
11-02-11, 16:48
I received a email response from Surefire, they have requested that I ship the defective mag back to them, on my dime, for their warranty department to conduct a QA review.
I'm not sure how long this process might take. One poster said that it took several weeks and his magazine came back still not working as expected. Since I don't really need this mag for anything, I'm not too concerned with the length of time it might take to get it serviced, however I do hope I get a working mag back. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of having a $100 conversation piece. :D
I am fairly certain they will refund your money if you desire. JM2CW
I received a email response from Surefire, they have requested that I ship the defective mag back to them, on my dime, for their warranty department to conduct a QA review.
I'm not sure how long this process might take. One poster said that it took several weeks and his magazine came back still not working as expected. Since I don't really need this mag for anything, I'm not too concerned with the length of time it might take to get it serviced, however I do hope I get a working mag back. I'm not thrilled with the prospect of having a $100 conversation piece. :D
RetreatHell
11-03-11, 03:26
Have 3 of them. Only issues I've encountered is failure to lock back on the last round fired at least 50% of the time with one of my guns that I've been primarily using over the past 2 months. Never had any other failure so far. Ammo has been XM193 except one mag of 60 rounds of PMC, which ran fine as well. Can't remember if it didn't lock back on that one or not. But other than the fail to lock back issue, I've been really diggin these SF 60 rounders.
That gun has proven to have other minor issues though overall and I couldn't devote the time necessary to figure shit out before my class this weekend. So, I'll be running my 14.5" BCM middy at my 3-day TRICON carbine 2 class this Friday-Sunday, for up to 2,000 rounds. After I burn through my 3 Surefire mags, I'm going to try passing them around to other students there who want to run them in their guns. I'll try and document not only MY experiences with these new 60 round SF mags, but the other students' who run them as well.
Hopefully I'll come away with some great knowledge on how these SF 60-rounders are running with a wide variety of guns and ammo. I'll make sure to update this thread sometime next week.
My mag runs fine, fully or partially loaded.
A buddy's runs fine, but as reported above, does not lock back quite often IN HIS CARBINE. Locked back fine in mine. Examining both lowers, I concluded the issue is the follower does not have as much "up" pressure as typical 30 rounders, when its empty. You can feel this when loading it; first 4 or 6 rounds go in really easy, minimal spring resistance, then it builds up, probably as an additional spring is being compressed.
We noticed that his bolt catch spring was significantly stronger than mine, and perhaps was overpowering the "up" pressure from the follower when the mag is dry, thus causing failure to lock back.
When examining the mechanics of the bolt catch and mag follower with lower opened up, you can see that with a magpul mag, the bolt catch was not rising fully, but enough to lock back. With SF mag, rose very little. In my lower, same SF mag follower caused bolt catch to rise to top of travel arc.
My friend is changing his bolt catch spring. Will report back with results.
Mark
Dos Cylindros
11-03-11, 09:36
I just got a chance to run the 60 round mag yesterday at my department range. We did a couple of 60 round full auto dumps with it and it seems to run fine. I ran the remainder of our drills with it and never had a problem. In total we probably put about 300-400 rounds through it without issue.
The only problem I encountered with it is when I downloaded it to switch out our rang ammo with duty ammo. The follower seemed to get stuck in the mag body forcing me to turn the mag upside down to dump out the remaining rounds. This happened three times while downlaoding the mag. As it never happened while firing, I am not sure if it is really an issue or not, though I have never had this problem with GI or PMAGS.
The weight was not really a problem for me, but it is noticeable over a 30 rounder in the gun. The only other drawback is it seems like you are pushing rounds into that thing forever when loading by hand.
It also impedes the use of the gun when fighting out of a vehicle because it is big. I have no larger than a 20 round magazine inserted while traveling.
I had my elbows removed for extra clearance fighting out of a vehicle.
MilitaryArms
11-03-11, 11:47
Some friends of mine got together for a holiday shoot last weekend (I wasn't able to attend) and posted a ton of pics and video here: http://ingunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/176505-range_report_halloween_shoot_with_a_few_ingoers_pics_vids.html
Of note, they too brought along a Surefire magazine and had this to say about its performance:
We also got the opportunity to test out Surefire's new 60rd magazine. While its an interesting design and idea, you'll see in later videos that its reliability didn't rise above that of what I would personally consider a novelty item.
nikuraba29
11-03-11, 12:04
When it comes to Marines, the version I always heard:
"If you take a Marine, give him two steel balls and lock him in a hermetically sealed room. He will lose one, and the other will be pregnant."
And I mean that in the best possible way. ;o)
What I like to use is giving a Marine a titanium ball bearing, locking him in a padded room and coming ba k later. The room will be on fire, the ball bearing broken and LCPL Benotz has no clue what happened...
S/F
29
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
Well I used my Surefire 60 magazine the first day of the Magpul Dynamics Carbine II Course and thus far it has functioned just as advertised.
I have put about 180 rounds through it (semi auto) with my 11.5" SBR suppressed.
Hawkeye M6A3
11-08-11, 01:22
Well I used my Surefire 60 magazine the first day of the Magpul Dynamics Carbine II Course and thus far it has functioned just as advertised.
I have put about 180 rounds through it (semi auto) with my 11.5" SBR suppressed.
I used one of Fisher's Surefire 60 mags in the Carbine I, and it functioned better than my PMAGs... :D
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