View Full Version : Get an AR15 or Masada?
Hi guys, I am in the market for a "tactical" rifle for personal enjoyment, protection, shooting sports etc...
I don't have a big budget so I can really only get one tactical style rifle. I was planning to get a Rock River, Bushmaster, DPMS, or other AR15 but from the research I did here I decided against those.
I have narrowed my choices down to an ADS M4 with a carry handle from Grant, or the MagPul Masada.
Since I can really only do this once what would you suggest?
Thanks.
Geoffrey.
Depends on when you want to get the rifle. If you want the rifle and now and do not want to wait for the Masada to be released I would just go with the AR platform. I know a lot of us must sound like broken records, but if you are limiting yourself to one, do it all rifle, I would recommend you get the Colt 6920.
It has the quality and reliability you would want in a defense rifle and can also be a fun gun. If it were up to only one rifle that is the route I would go. You rarely if never head anyone go to a forum and ask "how can I fix..." or "how can I make my" Colt 6920.
It'd be worth the investment.
Jay Cunningham
11-22-07, 12:59
ADS.
The Masada is currently vaporware. I have faith in MagPul, but it is simply unavailable right now. The ADS is available and Grant gives it the once over to make sure certain key features are good to go.
The money you save (and the wait time) on your AR can go towards ammunition and training - you can always buy a Masada in the future if you so desire.
Get the AR from Grant. You won't be disappointed with the weapon nor the service. :)
Thanks guys.
I am thinking about getting Grant to build me a rifle.
Basic M4 style with MagPul Miad Grip and CTR stock.
The benefits I see in the Masada are the charging handle setup, the gas system, and the flat top upper.
What do you see as pro/cons of a Masada over an AR?
Thanks guys.
I am thinking about getting Grant to build me a rifle.
Basic M4 style with MagPul Miad Grip and CTR stock.
The benefits I see in the Masada are the charging handle setup, the gas system, and the flat top upper.
What do you see as pro/cons of a Masada over an AR?
The con on the Masada is it is not available and who knows how much over retail they will sell for? They will probably be very hard to get.
Another choice would be the SR15 IAR which Grant is providing as well.
the Masada would be hard to beat, if you can wait for one?
Any links or info on the SR15 IAR, i tried a search but came up empty.
Thanks.
Could it be the SLR15 rifle you are looking for? If so, here is a link.
http://www.slr15.com/slr15grailriflespecs.html
The AR15 series of rifles has been refined for 40+ years. It is reliable, accurate and parts are readily available.
The Masada is brand new and has lots of proprietary parts. (or will be when it's released) I'd give the Masada some time to get through it's inevitable teething problems and get established. It looks like it should be a hell of a rifle but time will tell.
The AR (from a quality source) is already proven.
You can have an AR right now..in your hands..on the range in a matter of days..
if not hours...
When can you have Masada?
Bird in the hand being worth two in the bush....
After the production models of Masada are in civilian hands and proved...if you
still want one...sell what you have and buy one then...
Personally I'd rather be shooting mine rifle in hours or days rather than ?
imo
I know I'm just drinking the kool-aid but by the time the Masada is widely available it could be banned. I'd make a purchase sooner rather than later.
I know I'm just drinking the kool-aid but by the time the Masada is widely available it could be banned. I'd make a purchase sooner rather than later.
+1
While I know that Magpul will not release a weapon before they get it running, and I will want one WHEN it is out --> the LE6920 is here and works.
Given the potential outcome of 2008 - I would run dont walk to a store to get one (or better yet two)
If I was only going to get one weapon, I would take a hard look at the Novekse N4. If needed, you could buy a lower now, then save up and buy a complete Noveske upper when you had a little more cash.
One other question on my mind:
With the charging handle setup on an AR-15 how difficult is it to work the charging handle when you have a scope mounted back over the handle?
This will not be my setup, but I may add a variable power scope from time to time so I am wondering about the loading of the rifle.
Thanks.
When a scope is mounted correctly, the eye piece of the scope should be even or forward of the charging handle. This makes it no problem.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/TOM64/000_0772.jpg
RogerinTPA
11-23-07, 10:09
Go for the Colt 6920 or a very close second in quality, the LMT for $100.00 less. You won't be disappointed in either. I think Grant just raised the price on his Colts by $100.00 to $1400.00. I bought mine from adco for $1250.00 in Sept, and they completely installed all additional bells and whistles (DD7.0 lite rail, vortex flash suppressor, Tango Down vertical forearm grip) for free. I just did a google search for the Colt and LMT. Found several still at $1250, $1275 for stock colts and $1100 to $1200 for LMT's. The mystical MASADA is a pipe dream for now, just like there UBR stocks. :(
Hi guys, I am in the market for a "tactical" rifle for personal enjoyment, protection, shooting sports etc... I have narrowed my choices down to an ADS M4 with a carry handle from Grant, or the MagPul Masada. Since I can really only do this once what would you suggest?.
Buy what you can have today.
All this salivating over the Masada befuddles me.
Failure2Stop
11-23-07, 11:57
All this salivating over the Masada befuddles me.
Agreed, though I have set aside funds to buy one.
I think the facination comes from the marketing hype from H&K for the 416, the instant piston facination so many people are experiencing, and the SOCOM adoption of the FN Mk-16. The Masada seems to be the superior of the SCAR, especially in the looks/ergonomics department.
However, it seems entirely possiible that an AWB will fall out of the sky on us and the Masada will become moot.
ARs are with us right now, and the "benefits" of these piston systems and the Mk-16 will never be realized by civilian shooters.
Buy an AR now, and if you really want to- save up for a Masada, it's not like it's going to complete it's teething before your funds are ready anyway.
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 12:08
Agreed, though I have set aside funds to buy one.
I think the facination comes from the marketing hype from H&K for the 416, the instant piston facination so many people are experiencing, and the SOCOM adoption of the FN Mk-16.
Have you had a chance to check out an H&K 416 for yourself?
ADS.
The Masada is currently vaporware. I have faith in MagPul, but it is simply unavailable right now. The ADS is available and Grant gives it the once over to make sure certain key features are good to go.
The money you save (and the wait time) on your AR can go towards ammunition and training - you can always buy a Masada in the future if you so desire.
That's not fair at all to say. Vaporware isn't the correct term for something that actually exists and is being tested with definite intention of being mass produced.
Failure2Stop
11-23-07, 12:34
Have you had a chance to check out an H&K 416 for yourself?
Yes. Don't get me wrong, I think they are great for the .mil, but the real benefits of multi-thousand round weekly training does not justify the price-tag that it is carrying at this time.
The 10.5 version was the best shooting sub-14.5 I have had in my hands. I really think that is where the 416 excels- 14.5 and under.
Still, the failures of the M16/M4 have more to do with sand and crap impeding mechanical function. The one that springs to mind is the SF Lt/Capt (can't remember) in A-Stan that wound up with a single-shot/inop carbine. His problem was not the gas system, but tight tolerances + crap. At least that is how I see it.
Then again, I have had excellent performance from my M16A2s, A4s, and M4A1s, at least until a bolt breaks. Then I replace the bolt. Problem solved. These are heavy use guns as well.
Anyway, that's my opinion.
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 12:41
That's not fair at all to say. Vaporware isn't the correct term for something that actually exists and is being tested with definite intention of being mass produced.
Read the whole post, please.
:rolleyes:
Well then you contradicted yourself at the very least. I first heard the term "vaporware" when reading about the Shrike and that was a HUGE fiasco because they never existed.
"Vaporware" being the first word in your sentence, practically, just looks bad. It didn't matter that you said you had faith in Magpul to me. From my point of view, you'd use the term when you don't have faith.
I'm not your mom or your conscience so I'm not trying to get you to change what you said. But I do happen to know what you mean and just thought I'd mention that it wasn't fair to say what you did.
Someone who doesn't know better, and I'm sure the OP falls into that category (no offense,) might not understand what you said and just give up on the Masada for that comment.
variablebinary
11-23-07, 17:51
Lets see how the Masada pans out post-release first. Once it drops there be lots of more informed opinions in circulation to help guide you along
Obviously the AR15 is out and well proven, but sometimes having something that isnt an AR15 is worth it just to keep the hobby interesting. I opted for the XCR personally and will consider the Masada once it lands
variablebinary,
Hows that XCR holding up? I've checked one out that the local gun shop and LOOKS pretty nice
olds442tyguy
11-24-07, 14:35
If you could buy a Masada right now, I'd say Masada hands down. You can't though and there's a healthy amount of time until it gets released, so buy the AR now and a Masada later.
olds442tyguy
11-24-07, 14:44
The one that springs to mind is the SF Lt/Capt (can't remember) in A-Stan that wound up with a single-shot/inop carbine. His problem was not the gas system, but tight tolerances + crap.
Bravo, bravo.
Pro direct impingement people won't acknowledge this as they're loyal to the AR15. Anti direct impingement people won't admit this as it means half the rifles they claim are so much better will choke under the same circumstances.
If your car's stuck in mud up to the roof if ain't gonna matter if you have a diesel or a gas engine, you're still stuck.
That event is also a factual bitch slap to all of the guys who say the forward assist is pointless. :)
Does anyone know if the Masada will be available with a fixed stock, in a ban compliant configuration (i.e. no bayonet lug, flash hider, etc.)?
RogerinTPA
11-24-07, 17:49
Does anyone know if the Masada will be available with a fixed stock, in a ban compliant configuration (i.e. no bayonet lug, flash hider, etc.)?
That would depend on if it goes into full scale production and available for sale prior to any new anti-assault rifle legislation passing the hill and hitting the street first.
variablebinary
11-25-07, 02:17
variablebinary,
Hows that XCR holding up? I've checked one out that the local gun shop and LOOKS pretty nice
I love the XCR. I cant say enough good things about it.
Please check out www.xcrforum.com for opinions and feedback from others. You'll find approval runs high.
On a more superficial note, the aeshtetics of the XCR appeal to me more than anything coming in 2008 which contributed to it being a "must have"
Bravo, bravo.
Pro direct impingement people won't acknowledge this as they're loyal to the AR15. Anti direct impingement people won't admit this as it means half the rifles they claim are so much better will choke under the same circumstances.
If your car's stuck in mud up to the roof if ain't gonna matter if you have a diesel or a gas engine, you're still stuck.
That event is also a factual bitch slap to all of the guys who say the forward assist is pointless. :)
Actaully IIRC It was a Ranger Reg't Capt (Nate Self) and was due to the worn extractor... due to Clinton era budget cuts that killed the units ability to due PM work
or perhaps another incident.
Failure2Stop
11-25-07, 11:27
Actaully IIRC It was a Ranger Reg't Capt (Nate Self) and was due to the worn extractor... due to Clinton era budget cuts that killed the units ability to due PM work
or perhaps another incident.
I side-tracked myself, forgetting the point I was going for and wound up with half of my argument.
Which was-
It doesn't matter how good the rifle is if the operator and maintainers do not do their job. I was unaware that the issue finally came down to the extractor, nonetheless, at the time user maintainance and servicability checks could not be verified to have been done correctly, or even at all.
A worn extractor should be easily identified and checked by the user. This issue would not have been solved by having a 416. Is this an argument against the 416, absolutely not, it is an argument against damning the system without full undertstanding of the system.
KevinB- thanks for clarifying the unit/and issue. I was pulling the incident from memory and the huge amount of "failure" data (that is mostly shady at best) that occupies my small and barely literate brain.
Which was-
It doesn't matter how good the rifle is if the operator and maintainers do not do their job..
YUP no argument here.
That would depend on if it goes into full scale production and available for sale prior to any new anti-assault rifle legislation passing the hill and hitting the street first.
It will be available before any new legislation can be passed. It might not be available to everyone and their brother before that happens but I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get one before any problems arise.
olds442tyguy
11-25-07, 17:44
Actaully IIRC It was a Ranger Reg't Capt (Nate Self) and was due to the worn extractor... due to Clinton era budget cuts that killed the units ability to due PM work
or perhaps another incident.
His M4 did fail for those reasons, but he discarded it when his attempts at removing a stuck round failed. He then scoured around and found an M16 to use. The M16 was already stopped up by sand, which is when he repeatedly used the forward assist to load and chamber his rounds.
I've got the full story (not just armytimes propaganda version) in an old Surefire Combat Tactics mag at home. I'm not 100% on the details, but if my memory failed I'll come back and make note of it tomorrow.
The benefits I see in the Masada are the stock configuration, total flat top, quick swap barrels...
What do you all see that might make the Masada a better weapon?
The benefits I see in the Masada are the stock configuration, total flat top, quick swap barrels...
What do you all see that might make the Masada a better weapon?
-steel on steel bolt/bearing rail system
-adjustable short stroke piston operating system (with dedicated bolt carrier, not an aftermarket mod of an AR bolt carrier)
-ambi controls
-upper is serial numbered, so you can swap lowers at will (along with barrels, for easy caliber changeovers)
-quick change buttstock
-collapsible/folding buttstock adjustable for LOP and cheekweld
-quick-change handguards
-extremely durable polymer furniture/skin (see PMAG for toughness tests)
-molded in color, will not come off like Krylon or other spray-on finishes
-spring loaded firing pin (to prevent dented primers and allow safe unloads/reloads of the same ammo over time)
Thanks caporider,
Does anyone know if the front sight will be removable? I think a set of H&K style BUIS would look great on this rifle.
Thanks caporider,
Does anyone know if the front sight will be removable? I think a set of H&K style BUIS would look great on this rifle.
On the Masada? Its folded flat and you could put a standard folding sight on if you wished. You should be able to see if in this picture.
http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Magpul/IMG_9171%20900%20Stick.jpg
Does anyone know if the Masada will be available with a fixed stock, in a ban compliant configuration (i.e. no bayonet lug, flash hider, etc.)?
As I understand it, there wont be any bayonet lugs on them. The fixed PRS stock is an option. There will be flash supressors on the barrels, but standard AR15 ones in regards to thread pitch, etc.
PetesTactical
11-27-07, 16:25
I would get the AR now and when the Masda comes out, you can make your final desision.
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