View Full Version : What duty pistol doesn't suck?
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
Littlelebowski
10-31-11, 14:06
HK P30, P2000. Gen3 Glock with older or Lone Wolf extractor.
That's pretty much what I came up with too, except that for my use, I'll need to buy an aftermarket barrel to shoot lead indoors out of a Glock also. (please don't tell me it's okay with the stock barrel, I ain't buying it)
crusader377
10-31-11, 14:36
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
I don't really know what are you complaining about. The M&P, Glocks, and H&Ks all represent some of the best modern pistol designs and the 1911 is a great pistol as long as you purchase a quality one and spend some time maintaining it.
Although many people have more pistol experience than I have, I have still been shooting pistols for nearly 15 years and have probably fired between 50-60,000 rounds through my various handguns and all of them have proven very reliable. I own a Beretta M9, CZ-75b, BHP Mark III, Springfield Loaded 1911, and the S&W MP9. Out of these the M&P and BHP have been flawless despite having between 6,000+ to 15,000+ rounds respectively on each. The CZ and M9 have been very reliable with only a handful of jams with to 2-3 FTEs on the CZ and to owning a crappy Pro-Mag magazine on the M9 which was quickly replaced. The M1911 has been the least reliable due to the average quality magazines that came with the pistol and minor extractor issues but those have been corrected and now it runs like a champ as well.
The M&P which I purchased 2 years ago has become my primary training platform and IMO is one of the best designs out there (it has made the rest of my pistols largely safe queens). It has all of the features associated with a modern polymer framed pistol combined with the excellent ergonomics like the BHP or M1911.
To the OP, I would just do some minimal maintenance on your pistol, ensure that the magazines are functioning properly, and drive on with the M&P. Every pistol is going to have its strengths and weaknesses but the M&P IMO is one of the best designs out there.
Gutshot John
10-31-11, 14:37
I've tried to like the P30...but HK triggers just plain suck. I've owned two USPs and didn't think much of them either.
I think any choice has its suck factor. I'm not sure I see the wisdom in trading shootability for German uber-engineered expense. Any choice requires some compromise.
Outside of the ones you've mentioned (though it hasn't been out long enough to prove itself)...have you tried the Walther PPQ? I can arrange for you to shoot one if you're willing to make the trip over to my end of town.
There is no perfect gun. Your M&Ps are as good as it gets. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment is the answer. The M&P has FEW.
JeffWard
Owner of 3 M&Ps...
There is no perfect gun. Your M&Ps are as good as it gets. Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment is the answer. The M&P has FEW.
JeffWard
Owner of 3 M&Ps...
I can agree that the M&P is a solid platform. I love my HK USP, HKP30, Glocks of all kinds.... crap I don't know why I don't love the M&P though. I think it might have to do with the S&W stamp. I don't even like the fact my guns say .40S&W on the slide. :D
Failure2Stop
10-31-11, 15:37
HK P30, P2000. Gen3 Glock with older or Lone Wolf extractor.
Agreed.
I am inclined to include the M&P, but only due to it's widespread use, not because of personal experience of sufficient duration to make a recommendation. I think it is probably one of the top if you are going with .40.
My caveat to the HKs is that I would only recommend LEM variants.
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
The newer M&P's are some of the most reliable ones ever built.
Older GEN 3's or new GEN 3's with LW extractors are GTG.
HK USP, HK P30, Walther PPQ, S&W E-Series, Colt 1911's, HK P7/M8, Walther PPS, etc.
C4
None of my 2nd Gen Glock 19's suck,and my newer Gen 3 19 hasn't started sucking yet after 2300 rounds.
Ditto on the HK's.I like the USP and the compact USP's,no experince with the others.
I have a M&P9 with slightly over 8,000 rounds through it. I have never had a single problem with this firearm. It has performed flawlessly. This is purely anecdotal and YMMV, but I am sold on the platform.
I agree, it all seems to be compromise. I know there's no perfect one out there.
When I retired from LE I was still carrying a revolver. Years earlier I was able to get away with a LW Commander .45 for a while. I realize that my 1911s and BHPs, both of which I trust, aren't ever coming back, but I'm a creature of habit. I don't shoot Glocks or SIGs all that well, and my current needs are simple. If I were under duress I might give the M&Ps a try, but I probably qualify as an "old dog" at this stage of the game.
I'm glad I don't have to be adapting constantly to whatever the bean-counters pick as the gun of the year only to change next year. To tell the truth, I'm with Robert Heinlein, who said "standardization is for insects."
I think people expect out of the box PERFECT.
Guns are what you make them, its a tool. It doesnt do all the work for you.
In the hands of someone who knows how to USE that tool is when it shines.
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
I'm very happy with my issued P2000 in .40S&W. It has yet to have a single stoppage or malfunction. Once I had a bad round that did not fire, but the primer was normally dented. I later tried to fire it again with the same results. That is clearly not the fault of the firearm.
I've tried to like the P30...but HK triggers just plain suck. I've owned two USPs and didn't think much of them either.
You haven't tried the LEM trigger. I like it very much.
When I retired from LE I was still carrying a revolver. Years earlier I was able to get away with a LW Commander .45 for a while. I realize that my 1911s and BHPs, both of which I trust, aren't ever coming back, but I'm a creature of habit. I don't shoot Glocks or SIGs all that well, and my current needs are simple. If I were under duress I might give the M&Ps a try, but I probably qualify as an "old dog" at this stage of the game.
I'm glad I don't have to be adapting constantly to whatever the bean-counters pick as the gun of the year only to change next year. To tell the truth, I'm with Robert Heinlein, who said "standardization is for insects."
Honestly, if it was allowed I would carry either my Colt Rail Gun or my 5" 27-2. Hell, I would change and carry one or the other depending on how I felt that day.
warpedcamshaft
10-31-11, 19:58
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
We are in the golden age of defensive firearm reliability/durability and ammunition capabilities. Weapon and bullet designs have taken leaps and bounds in the last few decades!
Maybe you should just throw rocks...
Earlier Gen 3 Glocks in 9mm, like was said earlier.
Gutshot John
10-31-11, 20:20
You haven't tried the LEM trigger. I like it very much.
I have...still underwhelmed. It makes the gun tolerable...still a crappy trigger compared to the Glock/M&P/PPQ.
buckshot1220
10-31-11, 20:41
I've tried to like the P30...but HK triggers just plain suck. I've owned two USPs and didn't think much of them either.
I think any choice has its suck factor. I'm not sure I see the wisdom in trading shootability for German uber-engineered expense. Any choice requires some compromise.
Outside of the ones you've mentioned (though it hasn't been out long enough to prove itself)...have you tried the Walther PPQ? I can arrange for you to shoot one if you're willing to make the trip over to my end of town.
HK requires "No Compromise."
Sorry, had to do it. Everything in life in life is a compromise and guns are no different. If there were a single gun that did everything right for everyone we wouldn't have competition or innovation. Pick what fits your needs best and meets those needs reliably.
The M&P would be the best platform if S&W would:
1) Increase the dwell time of the barrel lockup so that no aftermarket barrel was needed.
2)Put a PPQ trigger in it (including the actual trigger)
3) Lengthen the feedramp on the 9mm models to fix the jamming problem when it autoforwards.
4)Make a midsize model (G19,P2000) size
5)Design pins that don't need a hammer to disassemble
arizonaranchman
10-31-11, 21:11
Sig Sauer
I've been an LE armorer on Sigs (about 250 of them in my agency) since 1998 and honestly can't recall one of them failing or having a problem that wasn't magazine related off the top of my head. They're outrageously reliable and ready to go out of the box.
P220's, P226's and P239's are what we use most. 100% reliable in my experience and untold thousands of rounds. I carried a P226 daily as a duty pistol for 12 yrs with zero malfunctions or issues of any kind. Likewise with others in our armory.
As a range officer i've probably seen close to a million rounds go down range in the dozen years and 250 pistols we have and they just run and run and run. Even guys who don't clean their guns like they should (filthy) had no problems that a shot of lube on the slide rails wouldn't take care of.
brushy bill
10-31-11, 21:20
5" 27-2.
Definitely not junk
The M&P would be the best platform if S&W would:
1) Increase the dwell time of the barrel lockup so that no aftermarket barrel was needed.
2)Put a PPQ trigger in it (including the actual trigger)
3) Lengthen the feedramp on the 9mm models to fix the jamming problem when it autoforwards.
4)Make a midsize model (G19,P2000) size
5)Design pins that don't need a hammer to disassemble
1. M&P 45's are very accurate. 9mm's are hit and miss. Just saw a new one that was very accurate.
2. Apex Tactical fixes all trigger issues (if the consumer wants to go that route).
3. This is more of an issue with improper mag insertion VS a gun issue.
4. Agree.
5. Not a big deal.
C4
1. M&P 45's are very accurate. 9mm's are hit and miss. Just saw a new one that was very accurate.
2. Apex Tactical fixes all trigger issues (if the consumer wants to go that route).
3. This is more of an issue with improper mag insertion VS a gun issue.
4. Agree.
5. Not a big deal.
C4
On #2, of the late production M&P's I have handled all of the triggers have been acceptable and had I owned them may have remained stock. The FSS is something to lust for though.
On #2, of the late production M&P's I have handled all of the triggers have been acceptable and had I owned them may have remained stock. The FSS is something to lust for though.
I shot a bone stock M&P for a long time and did just fine with it. Yes, it can be done and would gladly shoot an M&P trigger over a good many other factory triggers.
C4
mkmckinley
10-31-11, 21:50
The M&P would be the best platform if S&W would:
1) Increase the dwell time of the barrel lockup so that no aftermarket barrel was needed.
2)Put a PPQ trigger in it (including the actual trigger)
3) Lengthen the feedramp on the 9mm models to fix the jamming problem when it autoforwards.
4)Make a midsize model (G19,P2000) size
5)Design pins that don't need a hammer to disassemble
I'm a big fan of the M&P and use one as my primary pistol but I think you're completely right. My 9mm is noticeably accurate and I shoot it much better than my Glocks. I also use the Apex Trigger and put them in all my M&Ps.
For a true duty pistol, particularly at larger agencies with multiple guns to care for, the best options are Glock and M&P--they are the easiest to maintain. Glock is a bit easier to service, while the M&P is more adaptable to a wider range of shooters. The 3rd gen Glocks work best in 9 mm; the jury is still out on the 4th gen Glocks. The M&P runs best in .45 ACP and .40 S&W.
In addition to Glock and M&P, an individual shooter should also consider the HK P30 and HK45. An older 9mm Sig P226 or P228 is an acceptable option. For duty purposes, the 1911 is a dated design, however for officers well versed on 1911's, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911 for serious use.
warpedcamshaft
11-01-11, 14:44
For a true duty pistol, particularly at larger agencies with multiple guns to care for, the best options are Glock and M&P--they are the easiest to maintain. Glock is a bit easier to service, while the M&P is more adaptable to a wider range of shooters. The 3rd gen Glocks work best in 9 mm; the jury is still out on the 4th gen Glocks. The M&P runs best in .45 ACP and .40 S&W.
The physical weight of these designs is another strong selling point. Not only are the polymer guns durable and reliable, but they save a significant quantity of weight over many of the older all-metallic frame designs.
I hope the Glock Gen4's end up working well. They are off to a bit of a rocky start with spring changes, new ejectors, and other various issues. Time will tell...
That's pretty much what I came up with too, except that for my use, I'll need to buy an aftermarket barrel to shoot lead indoors out of a Glock also. (please don't tell me it's okay with the stock barrel, I ain't buying it)
what's cast lead costing you? precision delta has FMJ for ~$145/2000 shipped. I looked into lead, but unless i were to cast my own the cost savings would be negligible.
I can agree that the M&P is a solid platform. I love my HK USP, HKP30, Glocks of all kinds.... crap I don't know why I don't love the M&P though. I think it might have to do with the S&W stamp. I don't even like the fact my guns say .40S&W on the slide. :D
this based on the clinton era nonsense where s&w caved to the trigger lock demands etc?
smith is under new ownership since then, they have a full line of AR rifles and an excellent high capacity pistol (the m&p) They're also slowly doing away with trigger locks on their revolvers. they're doing good things lately and i'm happy to buy their products.
My Gen 3 G22 and G19 were both reliable and functioned. I had a fee issues on the G22 when using the Surefire lights, but that has been resolved.
The M&P would be the best platform if S&W would:
1) Increase the dwell time of the barrel lockup so that no aftermarket barrel was needed.
2)Put a PPQ trigger in it (including the actual trigger)
3) Lengthen the feedramp on the 9mm models to fix the jamming problem when it autoforwards.
4)Make a midsize model (G19,P2000) size
5)Design pins that don't need a hammer to disassemble
(1) No accuracy issues here. Been quite impressed actually considering what the gun costs.
(2) APEX, worth every penny
(3) On rare occasions my 9mm M&P auto forwards, not one jam yet
(4) a non issue to me
Grant-
Would you say that with the hit or miss reputation of the M&P 9's for accuracy, have the newer production M&P 9's largely cured the barrel lockup accuracy issues in your experience?
Grant-
Would you say that with the hit or miss reputation of the M&P 9's for accuracy, have the newer production M&P 9's largely cured the barrel lockup accuracy issues in your experience?
To be honest, I have only heard one report from a KNOWN good shooter (recently) that their new 9mm M&P shoots well.
C4
1. M&P 45's are very accurate. 9mm's are hit and miss. Just saw a new one that was very accurate.C4
I agree on the .45's, just wish the 9's were the same.
2. Apex Tactical fixes all trigger issues (if the consumer wants to go that route).C4
Shouldn't be needed. S&W has all the means of fixing this (making it better)
3. This is more of an issue with improper mag insertion VS a gun issue.C4
It doesn't only do it on autoforward. It can also do it while releasing the slide stop.
4. Agree.C4
I think everyone would appreciate this.
5. Not a big dealC4
I've heard it from enough people to think it too would be greatly appreciated. Nice to only need a toothpick, not a hammer and punch, to take a Glock apart.I also don't like having to remove the rear sight to remove the firing pin block.
These are all things that S&W could easily do and have the finest duty hangun on the market hands down.
Jay Cunningham
11-01-11, 22:23
I have been married to the M&P line for a while now, and I'm familiar with their flaws. The late Gen 3 and Gen 4 Glocks also have their share of function issues. The Hks are at least twice the cost of the others. 1911s are great, low capacity, and "the king of the feedway stoppage". Do I need to cover the XDs?
So my question is this...what doesn't suck?
Beretta 92G-SD bro
Oh ****s yeah hells yes
snake eater 332
11-01-11, 23:16
Sig Sauer
I've been an LE armorer on Sigs (about 250 of them in my agency) since 1998 and honestly can't recall one of them failing or having a problem that wasn't magazine related off the top of my head. They're outrageously reliable and ready to go out of the box.
P220's, P226's and P239's are what we use most. 100% reliable in my experience and untold thousands of rounds. I carried a P226 daily as a duty pistol for 12 yrs with zero malfunctions or issues of any kind. Likewise with others in our armory.
As a range officer i've probably seen close to a million rounds go down range in the dozen years and 250 pistols we have and they just run and run and run. Even guys who don't clean their guns like they should (filthy) had no problems that a shot of lube on the slide rails wouldn't take care of.
^^^ Agree 100%
I've been in LE for the last 15 years and I've previously served 9+ years in the military, primarily in military intelligence and special forces. As an LEO, I have carried a 9mm Sig P226 on duty my entire career. My agency currently carries the 9mm Sig P226R, but we are in the process of changing over to the same weapon in .40 S&W within the next few months.
In all my experience using the Sig P226 in both LE and the military, I have never seen one fail for other than magazine related issues. My Sigs have eaten any and all ammo I've fed them without so much as a hiccup.
In fact, I took an advanced pistol handling class last summer (Combat Focus Shooting/Advanced Pistol Handling with Rob Pincus) where we fired about 1,800 rounds in 3 days and I had no failures unless they were set up by me as part of the training. Others in the same class used various Glocks, M&Ps, 1911s, etc. and all experienced failures, with a few having to be removed from the firing line to fix or replace completely.
Sigs are über reliable and built strong as tanks!
P.S. - I own several Glocks (with my primary off-duty carry being a G27) and a 1911 model and I'd still choose the Sig P226 as my duty weapon.
JMHO, but...
M&P's still break a lot (though not as much these days), but they're surely #2 due to what they offer shooting-wise coupled with what they offer in configs to fit varying officers. Some agencies stay away as regardless of what S&W and the gullible BATF may say, armorers can recognize single-action when they see it.
The H&K pistols with their high bore-axis', horrible triggers, and difficult detail-strip complication have always been and still are even today more hype than substance ever since the P7M's were retired due to how much they cost to manufacture.
Sigs were the cat's ass until serious shooter's grip's evolved and they found that all their controls/levers were in horrible places unless a state-of-1985 tea cup grip was employed, and what a "bore-axis" is and that a high one isn't the best for follow up shots...
Think pre-2010ish (non-MIM extractor) 9mm Glocks are the best mix of shootability and bombproof-ness in a duty pistol, since they do much more right than wrong, tend to go bang most of the time, and are pretty hard to break.
^^^ Agree 100%
I've been in LE for the last 15 years and I've previously served 9+ years in the military, primarily in military intelligence and special forces. As an LEO, I have carried a 9mm Sig P226 on duty my entire career. My agency currently carries the 9mm Sig P226R, but we are in the process of changing over to the same weapon in .40 S&W within the next few months.
In all my experience using the Sig P226 in both LE and the military, I have never seen one fail for other than magazine related issues. My Sigs have eaten any and all ammo I've fed them without so much as a hiccup.
In fact, I took an advanced pistol handling class last summer (Combat Focus Shooting/Advanced Pistol Handling with Rob Pincus) where we fired about 1,800 rounds in 3 days and I had no failures unless they were set up by me as part of the training. Others in the same class used various Glocks, M&Ps, 1911s, etc. and all experienced failures, with a few having to be removed from the firing line to fix or replace completely.
Sigs are über reliable and built strong as tanks!
P.S. - I own several Glocks (with my primary off-duty carry being a G27) and a 1911 model and I'd still choose the Sig P226 as my duty weapon.
There is a perception that Sig's quality has taken a dip over the past few years. There is no doubt that the P250 and 556 platforms have been failures from a LE perspective. None of the SME's on this forum are recommending the recent crop of Sigs on the commercial market. Some correlate this with the outsourcing of certain small parts in their handgun line. I suppose that weapons going to LE agencies may benefit from better QC procedures which may explain your positive experience. As for me, I'm avoiding any commercial Sig made after 2004.
Failure2Stop
11-02-11, 02:20
Recent Sigs have had a distinct drop in quality given the number of recorded breakages in recent years. I have also personally seen this in issued guns: older guns seemed to work until their barrels were shot out and new ones seemed to enjoy self destructing like they were being life-coached by Jim Jones.
Bore-Axis height is a red herring. There are so many variables between different pistols that whatever minor difference might be made by bore height is swallowed by other factors, the least of which is not shooter skill. Virtually nothing other than conjecture and assumption (and, yes physics, but only if talking about bore axis alone) indicates that bore axis height contributes to a discernable difference in performance.
Sig Sauer
I've been an LE armorer on Sigs (about 250 of them in my agency) since 1998 and honestly can't recall one of them failing or having a problem that wasn't magazine related off the top of my head. They're outrageously reliable and ready to go out of the box.
P220's, P226's and P239's are what we use most. 100% reliable in my experience and untold thousands of rounds. I carried a P226 daily as a duty pistol for 12 yrs with zero malfunctions or issues of any kind. Likewise with others in our armory.
As a range officer i've probably seen close to a million rounds go down range in the dozen years and 250 pistols we have and they just run and run and run. Even guys who don't clean their guns like they should (filthy) had no problems that a shot of lube on the slide rails wouldn't take care of.
On the flip-side, I am just a regular guy who has owned two P226's and one had FTE's about 30% of the time with anything nickel-plated, such as Gold Dot and Ranger T-series. I cleaned the chamber very well verified function with brass ammo--100%. Still failed with the nickel plated. Further, the take-down lever began pivoting around the rivet preventing disassembly of the weapon had I not had it replaced immediately.
My other P226 has been flawless.
1/2 is pretty bad, but take sample-size into account.
Bad Medicine
11-02-11, 07:11
JMHO, but...
M&P's still break a lot (though not as much these days), but they're surely #2 due to what they offer shooting-wise coupled with what they offer in configs to fit varying officers. Some agencies stay away as regardless of what S&W and the gullible BATF may say, armorers can recognize single-action when they see it.
The H&K pistols with their high bore-axis', horrible triggers, and difficult detail-strip complication have always been and still are even today more hype than substance ever since the P7M's were retired due to how much they cost to manufacture.
Sigs were the cat's ass until serious shooter's grip's evolved and they found that all their controls/levers were in horrible places unless a state-of-1985 tea cup grip was employed, and what a "bore-axis" is and that a high one isn't the best for follow up shots...
Think pre-2010ish (non-MIM extractor) 9mm Glocks are the best mix of shootability and bombproof-ness in a duty pistol, since they do much more right than wrong, tend to go bang most of the time, and are pretty hard to break.
Don't know what planet you are from but HK's are pretty damn easy to dissasemble, the triggers are definitely difficult and take time to get used to. Still HK quality is pretty high up!
I see some folks are saying the earlier Gen 3 Glocks are GTG. What qualifies as Earlier (date of manufacture or serial number pre-fix)?
Nephrology
11-02-11, 09:26
I see some folks are saying the earlier Gen 3 Glocks are GTG. What qualifies as Earlier (date of manufacture or serial number pre-fix)?
pre-2011. My latest is a 2009 that is GTG even with the "new style" extractor
In my experience the P220 has always been a dog and no where near as reliable as the P226 and P228. FWIW, I've been around many thousands of older German built P226 and P228's made in the late 1980's through late 1990's--except for occasional issues with rust, as long as the springs were changed as recommended, they all worked VERY well. In the past 5-6 years, as these older classic Sigs reached the end of their service lives, they began to be replaced by newly manufactured Sig P226's--in aggregate these newly minted Sig pistols had numerous failures to function and significant premature parts breakage. Several nearby LE agencies were forced to ditch all their new Sig pistols within a few months of getting them as a result of these types of issues.
In my short career I have carried a few different types of guns. I was issued a glock 17. While this is a reliable gun, I have found if I don't get the perfect grip on it I tend to pull my shots. In a stressful situation I don't imagine I am going to take the perfect grip. I tried the M&P .45. While it is also a reliable platform I found the trigger to be lacking. With training it was ok to overcome, but again under stress I found I sometimes short stroked the trigger or yanked it due to the spongy trigger. While APEX might fix this, even an armor installed apex kit is against my department policies for a duty gun. I briefly carried a 1911. I love this platform but lacking a light rail made me shelf it very soon after. I thought about revisiting this platform with a surefire rail, but I need to pick up another 1911 or two just in case for backups. At this point it is not a feasible option. That left my sigs. Even with the first double action shot I shot it as fast and more accurate then the issue glock. I decided on the 226 for duty and a 228 rail for off duty and as a backup duty weapon.
While some have said recent sigs aren't up to snuff I have had no issues with mine. The only sig I ever had issues with was an older 3 serial West German that I sold at a profit to purchase my current newer model.
The best advice I can give is carry whatever platform you shoot best that is in your department policy. It doesn't matter how reliable a platform is if you can't hit the broadside of a barn with it.
Relevant thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=50634
Duty pistols I, and others have gone through over the years. FWIW, I am still carrying the M&P45.
Grant-
Thanks for the candid response regarding the M&P 9mm. We have some early production M&P's (original glossy magazine timeframe) available as issued guns, they are actually uncannily accurate, one of them performed very well for me at the Rogers school a couple of years ago. Considering purchasing a new M&P 9 as a personal gun, but the talk of the early unlocking issues with the 9's is what is potentially keep me away.
Gutshot John
11-02-11, 16:00
Can someone point me to some solid numbers/quantifiable numbers relevant to accuracy/unlocking issues on the M&P or is this evidence mostly anecdotal?
Genuinely there are very few firearms that I shoot more accurately than my 3 M&P 9s. I'm measurably more accurate with the M&P than with my Glocks. Admittedly a small sampling but I'd like to see some hard numbers from larger sample sizes for reverse claims.
Can someone point me to some solid numbers/quantifiable numbers relevant to accuracy/unlocking issues on the M&P or is this evidence mostly anecdotal?
Genuinely there are very few firearms that I shoot more accurately than my 3 M&P 9s. I'm measurably more accurate with the M&P than with my Glocks. Admittedly a small sampling but I'd like to see some hard numbers from larger sample sizes for reverse claims.
I can tell you the M&P 9mm and 40 accuracy is all over the place. Some guns shoot very well and some do not. I also know that accuracy is at the top of the list for S&W engineering.
If you have an accurate 9mm/40 then great! Mine shoots about 6MOA and I (on a good day) can shoot 2-3MOA @25yds. :(
C4
Gutshot John
11-02-11, 18:14
I can tell you the M&P 9mm and 40 accuracy is all over the place. Some guns shoot very well and some do not. I also know that accuracy is at the top of the list for S&W engineering.
If you have an accurate 9mm/40 then great! Mine shoots about 6MOA and I (on a good day) can shoot 2-3MOA @25yds. :(
C4
And that's an acceptable measure as we all have to go by our own experience but I just wanted to know if it's anecdotal or there was something quantifiable to see.
I can tell you the M&P 9mm and 40 accuracy is all over the place. Some guns shoot very well and some do not. I also know that accuracy is at the top of the list for S&W engineering.
If you have an accurate 9mm/40 then great! Mine shoots about 6MOA and I (on a good day) can shoot 2-3MOA @25yds. :(
C4
Will the shooting public be able to figure out when the new and improved M&P's come out? I will buy one in a heart beat after that. I love my Pro, but the accuracy was 5-6 inches at 25 yds with the factory barrel. A drop in KKM barrel moved it solidly into average Glock territory. The M&P platform has SO much potential.......
Will the shooting public be able to figure out when the new and improved M&P's come out? I will buy one in a heart beat after that. I love my Pro, but the accuracy was 5-6 inches at 25 yds with the factory barrel. A drop in KKM barrel moved it solidly into average Glock territory. The M&P platform has SO much potential.......
No as the common shooter is not even capable of 6MOA at 25yds. This is why post people have zero idea that their gun isn't very accurate (as they cannot shoot well enough to know).
The M&P CAN BE the BEST SVC pistol available (when all things are factored in).
IMHO, people should spend less worry about pistol accuracy and more time attending training classes and practicing. No need to be concerned about a weapon accuracy when you cannot shoot.
C4
Agreed...
But it is great they are working on the mechanical accuracy for the few percent who can tell.
Gutshot John
11-02-11, 18:48
IMHO, people should spend less worry about pistol accuracy and more time attending training classes and practicing. No need to be concerned about a weapon accuracy when you cannot shoot.
http://30.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_kwo1ixWImD1qz4wexo1_400.jpg
One more thing for the Glockwagon- I saw numerous G19's in use in Iraq by various PMC's. Many of them were not well maintained and almost none of them followed the recommended maintenance guidelines as it pertained to parts replacement.
Yet, they continued to function even when there was some questionable ammo (East bloc). If I was going to any shithole in the world for unsocial reasons- Glock would be my first choice.
Agreed...
But it is great they are working on the mechanical accuracy for the few percent who can tell.
Exactly. I mean why not??? ;)
Can someone point me to some solid numbers/quantifiable numbers relevant to accuracy/unlocking issues on the M&P or is this evidence mostly anecdotal?
Genuinely there are very few firearms that I shoot more accurately than my 3 M&P 9s. I'm measurably more accurate with the M&P than with my Glocks. Admittedly a small sampling but I'd like to see some hard numbers from larger sample sizes for reverse claims.
Almost everything about gun performance on the net is anectdotal. Good and bad.
Todd Green's early M&P was very accurate also in his long term test. He has presented that the barrel hood profile was modded along the way for the M&PC to work and standardize on barrel blanks (like evil twin Glock did with RSAs of 9mm and .40s) and the modified barrel hood profile aggravates the early unlocking.
Earlier guns like Moshjath mentioned about sound pretty sweet.
Exactly. I mean why not??? ;)
Yes. They made a design CHOICE that screwed up the accuracy and their reputation among part of their customer base. The really stupid part of that, in my admittedly limited knowledge of their manufacturing process, is that they have to end up with different part number barrels for the different size guns anyway. So why not make them differently? The blank, if that is what drove it, is the material at the least expensive level.
So, for a few pennys more for material and material removal time, they could make all sizes optimal.
Come on Smith, make a world beater.
bigredneck61088
11-02-11, 20:57
Nothing against the smiths, i just don't shoot em well and not a fan of the grip, glock's grip angle i am not a fan of nor the blocky squarish grip... I have been carrying an XD40 service with TLR-1 for four years and spend much more time at the range than the average officer, only one malfunction (magazine issue/replaced), and i shoot it well!! We also have out of 20 officers (personal weapons policy), 6 are xds, 4 m&ps, rest are glocks and sigs.
That said, whatever fits you best and what you shoot the best is what you should be carrying. You can carry what joe schmo says is the best, but if you can't hit the broad side of the barn with it, what's the point??
That said, if policy allowed id be carrying a 1911 because i shoot em amazingly well.... until then, it will be XDs for me
TriviaMonster
11-02-11, 22:01
A good friend of mine had an m&p9, and while it was supremely accurate, it never was reliable. I would say a 9mm glock non problem gen is about as good as it gets. Then again I'm an XDm shooter so I sway that way as well.
I will add on a sad note I was reading a hipoint .40sw review by a guy who worked as a security guard. Said he loved it until he had an armed suspect pull a gun on him. Guess who's gun had a double feed? I'll take a hipoint over a Taurus millennium pro though.
-Chris-
snackgunner
11-02-11, 22:22
With the reported accuracy problems in some of the m&p 9mm, is smith and wesson customer service willing/able to take a look at the pistol and fix the accuracy issues (replace with a new barrel and test fire) , if you send the pistol back to them?
Spahr0311B
11-03-11, 01:17
Refering to the original question, "suck," is a very relative term. If you are looking for a pistol that is incapable of malfunctioning, it doesn't exist.
I carry a Glock 22 Gen 3 on duty. It's very reliable, but it has malfunctioned. ID the problem, fix the problem, finish the fight. I know that nobody wants to play the odds with their life on the line, however...
If your duty weapon malfunctions 1 time in 1,000 rounds, that is still a .1% chance that the gun will NOT go bang when you pull the trigger. Now line that up with the odds that the .1% will occur at the same time you are fighting for your life.
That's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth.
Can someone point me to some solid numbers/quantifiable numbers relevant to accuracy/unlocking issues on the M&P or is this evidence mostly anecdotal?
Genuinely there are very few firearms that I shoot more accurately than my 3 M&P 9s. I'm measurably more accurate with the M&P than with my Glocks. Admittedly a small sampling but I'd like to see some hard numbers from larger sample sizes for reverse claims.
At a recent EAG class (last month), Pat Rogers complained that his own personal MP9 couldn't keep a decent group at 25 yards. I forget the exact size, but it was bad. He then borrowed a student's MP9 and put 5 shots into a roughly 2"-3" group at 25 yards. He was also considering the aftermarket barrel option.
I wish glocks felt better in my hand if so l'd find an older one and be done with it.
I have a sig pro that is my favorite polymer pistol l've fired yet, fits my hand perfect, trigger is great, has better sights than my other polymer pistols and l'm more accurate with it than any polymer pistol l've shot by far.
l like it better than my glock because the glock just doesnt feel right in my hand. The glock (gen 3) does have thousands of rounds no failures to date though.
l like it better than my my mp40 because well, mainly l dont like the trigger and it has had a few ftf/fte's.
like it better than my xd, which l actually like but the whole uncontrollable grip safety thing gets me, the xd has been 100% reliable though.
Another thing about the sig pro (for what its worth) everyone l have let shoot it has loved it, with my other pistols (glock, mp, xd) its pretty hit or miss with most people. I also haven't heard anything bad about them and thats actually hard to do nowadays with the interweb and all. Time will tell but after 2k rounds mines had 0 ftf/fte. The people on the sig forums really seem to like them as well.
Just throwing that out there because it really is a good pistol and most people dont know it exist. Whether you feel the same will obviously vary but l feel its definitely good enough to be in the running with glock, mps or whatever. It is da/sa hammer fired though most polymers are striker fired (if that matters to you).
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