View Full Version : Defensive bullets....
If we could leave the "don't use reloads for self defense" argument aside for a moment...
what do you all recommend for defensive 223/5.56 loads? I've loaded a crapload of 55 grain FMJ mostly.. dabbled a bit in 77 grain bullets (though i never really did get that one dialed in)
kinda leaning toward 55 grain as that's what i load a lot of now, and that's what i shoot... but I'm open to heavier stuff... i have a 1 in 7 twist BCM 16" mid barrel.
id go with something like a 60gr NBT or a 75gr Hornady A-Max. humans are no tougher than deer so i would think any soft point or hunting style bullet would work in the 60-75gr range.
Speer actually makes a Gold Dot for .224 now as well.
id go with something like a 60gr NBT or a 75gr Hornady A-Max. humans are no tougher than deer so i would think any soft point or hunting style bullet would work in the 60-75gr range.
Speer actually makes a Gold Dot for .224 now as well.
I was going to say use the TSX loads till I saw the above??? Is Speer offering this as a reloading component now? If so, is it cheaper than the TSX loads?
Also, who says that you shouldn't use reloads for SD? And why?
I recommend this, I have used these for my HD loads since I have owned an AR.
The accuracy is outstanding and they perform amazing.
http://www.midwayusa.com/Product/724752/hornady-tap-personal-defense-ammunition-223-remington-55-grain-polymer-tip-point-box-of-20.
I have also used Fed. hollow points. I think they are called Powershok? They work really good too.
The accuracy of the Hornady is outstanding though.
Its what I have in the M4 and the shorty right now
Nightvisionary
11-01-11, 05:39
Im finally settled on Nosler 77 OTM's, RE 15, and CCI 450 primers. I get good accuracy and 2600 FPS.
Also, who says that you shouldn't use reloads for SD? And why?
Retards think you'll face scrutiny from the MAN for loading your own in the event you're involved in a shooting.
If I am ever involved in a shooting I hope that I have my handloaded ammo on hand at the time versus the various other ammo I have which is all FMJ.
I can stock alot more handloaded premium bullet ammo than premium store-bought ammo due to my finances. Just trying to stay within my means i.e. being able to shoot more.
If someone knows a source for the .224" Speer Gold Dot as a component please pass it along. same for .308" x 110 grain (M1 Carbine) also.
Generalpie
11-01-11, 12:05
Retards think you'll face scrutiny from the MAN for loading your own in the event you're involved in a shooting.
The theory is that "special" ammunition that is loaded to something above factory or somehow increases the lethality could go to showing intent. This could play a factor in a shooting but only in very limited scenarios where the shooting itself was questionable.
I would worry about it a lot more from a civil aspect than a criminal aspect but I don't know how many civilian shootings have follow up civil action. I also don't know the exact percentage of LE shootings that have civil action follow up but everyone in the business just expects it so it is pretty high.
I've had that exact conversation with several attorneys from both court room tables, both gun guys and not. The general consensus I have gotten is that it is really a non issue in an otherwise justified shooting. Especially so if the ammo mirrors a commercially available load.
The general consensus I have gotten is that it is really a non issue in an otherwise justified shooting.
Exactly. In an unjustified shooting like the Harold Fisch case, they went after his 10mm caliber selection.
Don't worry about reload or factory - just because you use an AR will garentee you'll go to jail!:D Remember if you use an AR you are a killer of children and old women!:rolleyes: In other words load and use what ever you feel like and don't freaking worry about it! Christ!:suicide2:
This is true to a point- however, IIRC the prosecutor who went after Harold Fish did in fact bring up the type of ammunition he used. According to some it simply amounted to the prosecutor piling on charges and that it wasn't a real determining factor.
In addition had there been someone competent on the defense to explain that a .40 round is almost identical to a 10MM (I believe length is the real difference) then it possibly would have been moot. In any case our laws have changed and I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
The theory is that "special" ammunition that is loaded to something above factory or somehow increases the lethality could go to showing intent. This could play a factor in a shooting but only in very limited scenarios where the shooting itself was questionable.
I would worry about it a lot more from a civil aspect than a criminal aspect but I don't know how many civilian shootings have follow up civil action. I also don't know the exact percentage of LE shootings that have civil action follow up but everyone in the business just expects it so it is pretty high.
I've had that exact conversation with several attorneys from both court room tables, both gun guys and not. The general consensus I have gotten is that it is really a non issue in an otherwise justified shooting. Especially so if the ammo mirrors a commercially available load.
In the Fish case it was a matter of an incompetant defense attorney, or one who did a poor job countering the gun and ammo issue.
It would be simple to point out that the hollowpoints that Fish used were similar to those used by virtually every LE agency in the US, and that his superkiller 10mm was about 5% more powerful than the .40 S&W, one of the most common handguns carried by LE agencies in the US.
Further, since Fish was also concerned about defense against wild animals, the more powerful handgun made sense. It would be simple to put a local LEO on the stand and ask him if they typically preferred something more potent than their issued handguns when engaging wild animals.
If we could leave the "don't use reloads for self defense" argument aside for a moment...
.....
Retards think you'll face scrutiny from the MAN for loading your own in the event you're involved in a shooting.
I had a feeling it was something like that...kinda the same argument as using NFA weapons for defense too :rolleyes:
m1a_scoutguy
11-02-11, 00:14
A different case,,but reloads were the main trouble in this case !!! :(
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/
I had a feeling it was something like that...kinda the same argument as using NFA weapons for defense too :rolleyes:
despite a suppressed SBR being IDEAL for home defense :o
I'm gonna give those hornady bullets a go i think....
Generalpie
11-02-11, 16:48
Interesting synopsis of the case. Reloaded ammunition was a factor but for a completely different reason. I wonder what the rest of the story is.
A different case,,but reloads were the main trouble in this case !!! :(
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_181_30/ai_n26806104/
I still only load for practice but only because I have ammo that I am required to use. I still think the best advice is to find a well performing factory load and duplicate it as best as possible. All the research on wound ballistics is there, may as well use it. I wouldn't want to carry a loading that is an unknown performer. I would probably go for one of the heavy match loads. Bonded bullets are stupid expensive.
Poo-pooing the advice to generally avoid reloads for carry ammo without knowing the basis for said advice is shortsighted.
There have been a number of shooting cases that were complicated by GSR and how the range to the shot person was calculated from it.
Factory ammo leaves you with a way to have repeatable tests done by the crime lab type guys, reloads do not.
A good shoot is a good shoot though...
Aside from that though, he asked about .223/5.56 ammo. I'm not sure what you carry outside your home on a daily basis, but (unless something went very very bad) the only time a carbine would be used in a defensive situation would be at your house where, depending on where you live of course, it would be VERY easy to prove that a shoot was justified.
Regardless, if you are in the right, no prosecutor will be able to sway a jury if the evidence is there that it was a good shoot.
Unless you have a heavily investigated case like a shooting of a major political figure, the "lab" ain't a-gonna do anything like test firings to re-create the actual shooting. First, in almost every shooting scene, it is not important. Second, due to lack of resources, they'll typically just have the medical examiner testify whether there was ash and/or stippling on the body, and they'll bag and test the hands of the suspect if he's around to arrest. If it's an issue they'll fire a few "known" rounds into water to get the striation pattern so they can identify any unknown bullet that's recovered, but again, this is seldom an issue.
I've been working the street for 25 years now, I have an idea how homicide investigations work.
That distance to the person shot may be a factor in a shooting has come up before, and it will come up again. Thinking it can't is naive.
Such things can establish whether a good shoot is good or not.
I'm not going to argue about it, someone wants to carry reloads for defensive work they can knock themselves out. I wouldn't use reloaded ammo myself unless I had nothing else to use.
I've been working the street for 25 years now, I have an idea how homicide investigations work.
That distance to the person shot may be a factor in a shooting has come up before, and it will come up again. Thinking it can't is naive.
Such things can establish whether a good shoot is good or not.
I'm not going to argue about it, someone wants to carry reloads for defensive work they can knock themselves out. I wouldn't use reloaded ammo myself unless I had nothing else to use.
One of teh cases I'm somewhat familiar with involved an alleged suicide in which a man reloaded some low recoil rounds for his wife. she apparently shot herself, but there was no gunpowder residue on her body, implying she had been shot from a distance. The husbands defense was that the low recoil loads had less powder residue. I think he may be in jail....
that said, if i were to reload defensive loads for my AR (which i probably will) i would be loading them somewhere between hot 223 and mild 5.56 nato. I'd think from a forensics standpoint there'd be little discernible difference between this ammo and any factory ammo.
I wonder if this thread would have gone differently had i suggested we not discuss the viability of using reloads for personal defense. That said, it's been a very mature and interesting discussion. In the "cover your ass" society we live in, it's a valid question.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.