View Full Version : Rethinking VFG's?
toddackerman
11-22-07, 23:47
I've been thinking of ways to minimize weight on my 16" MRP. and questioning if I really need a VFG. I like the ability to carry an extra bolt at all times, but thinking that it might not really add a lot to anything like control etc. I guess I should try some drills before making a decision, but wanted to kick it around a little with the members here to see what your "Pro's and Con's" list is for VFG's.
What do you think, and why?
Failure2Stop
11-23-07, 02:43
I used to love VFGs, then experienced growing distaste for them, now I am in-between with them.
I prefer a magwell hold for small guns, as long as I can still reach the light, or use a tape switch.
I like a VFG on 20" barrels, especially when things start getting attached to the rails.
I am back and forth on 14-16" barrels, depending on accessories mounted to the rails. If I have something I cannot run a tape switch from, I will go with a VFG so I can access the item.
I use the VFG as a backstop, only my pinkie and ring fingers really touch the VFG. Thumb points down the barrel, like an isosceles grip with a pistol. Lights are generally mounted at 11 o'clock for thumb access, and the VFG puts my hand where it needs to be if the light does not have a tape switch.
I lose some power in my muzzle-thump due to how I grasp my VFG, but I figure that the carbine is much more effective as a projectile launcher than as a club, and I shoot faster and more accurately with my broken isosceles than as a chicken-choker.
KAC vert grip -- thin (excellent with gloves) and light.
I add an extra bolt to my MIAD -- adding heavy stuff out past the point of balance to the muzzle is not very wise IMHO if it can be helped.
I prefer a magwell hold for small guns, as long as I can still reach the light, or use a tape switch.
I like a VFG on 20" barrels, especially when things start getting attached to the rails.
I am back and forth on 14-16" barrels, depending on accessories mounted to the rails. If I have something I cannot run a tape switch from, I will go with a VFG so I can access the item.
I am in the same boat as you. When I was on active duty I prefered the VFG on my A4 as it seemed to help with the additional weight of the KAS RAS, the PEQ2 and the light.
When I got out and initially bought my Bushmaster Patrolman's Rifle I put a TD VFG and it just didn't seem to offer the same benefits as it did on my A4. I then sold the Bushy and bought my 6933 and the mag well hold works perfect. Due to the lighter weight I feel that the VFG would be more of a hinderance than helpful.
That said, if I go with a 6920 and put a KAC RAS on it for my next purchase I may give the VFG one more shot.
Rmplstlskn
11-23-07, 08:56
I find a VFG a necessity the way I use my light mount, plus I like the lesser wrist twist required to just use a handguard...
That said, I just dumped my heavy aluminum one for a very lightweight and impressively designed and manufactured BOBRO STUBBY VFG. So far I am very impressed with it... It is light and QUICKLY detachable, for those times a VFG is just in the way (bench, etc...) Although unusual in mounting, it seems to be very strong...
Just an option to consider before you bail out of VFG completely...
Rmpl
I'm a big fan of them...makes for a natural fighting grip...
makes control of weapon easier..
Makes operating my weapon light easy..
Helps keep muzzle climb down while pulling back on the weapon along with better control while moving.. Makes multiple shots easier and more accurate.
I have been customizing my KAC grips and shortening them to a stubby vs full size which minimizes there length and a used KAC VFG can be had for $15 shipped on most exchange boards.
Since being issued one back in the day, I have always been a fan of the KAC (the original). it's the right thickness and it attaches quickly and simply in the field without tools. It compliments my style of shooting.
Now if Reed would only sell a Commercial version that is stubby....(hint..hint..);)
Now if Reed would only sell a Commercial version that is stubby....(hint..hint..);)
Big +1 Dude....
It's us guys who live up here in the "Great White North" who have all the best ideas....eh...:)
Bill Alexander
11-23-07, 09:37
I used to love VFGs, then experienced growing distaste for them, now I am in-between with them.
I prefer a magwell hold for small guns, as long as I can still reach the light, or use a tape switch.
Please do not take this as a critisizm of your shooting technique but you are aware of the gas venting path in the gun in case of a cartidge failure or a severe overload.
It would be remiss of the military to not have examined and made provision for such an event and most designs feature some form of drilling throught the reciever to the bolt face. With the design of the M16 a drilling was precluded but a failure vent is still present. A cartidge failing to obturate will vent gas back thought the slot where the extractor sits and then either force that gas directly down the mag well or in severe cases split the very thin section at the bottom of the carrier and again vent down through the mag well. At +55,000 psi chamber pressure the presence of the magazine and cartridges is academic. While this often renders the gun unrepairable it does try to prevent the user becoming the same.
From an engineering standpoint the use of a VFG is a moot point. Holding the magazine well is certainly not to be recomended.
For the OP, if weight saving is such a concern, examine why you need all that rail real estate. If you are only mounting a flash light go with a free float tube and add just the rail section that you need, where you need it. This removes both rail material and rail covers from the total. Small items such as spare parts are best carried off the weapon. Why increase the weight and momentum of the rifle. If you truely need an extra bolt because of the resupply route you will already be carrying a lot of other gear.
Bill Alexander
I have been using SOG graphite vertical foregrips on my rifles with rails.
They are shorter and much lighter than most VFGs on the market.
Like other posters, I don't like adding a lot of weight out front, doesn't make much sense to bolt ten pounds of stuff on the forearm of an eight pound rifle.
http://www.fototime.com/EB8FFACE5856D50/standard.jpg
toddackerman
11-23-07, 10:44
I have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury, so for the sake of this discussion, I'm not willing to use this method unless it is absolutely necessary for a "Special Requirement" shot. Certainly not as my Standard Method.
Pretty much agreeing with just about every the "Pros"regarding VFG's I see here. Still very interested in the "Cons" anyone has experienced.
Can anyone who has had training from several "Noted Instructors" I.e., Vickers, Rogers, Pincus etc. share their thoughts and the "Whys" with us? I'm not sure this just isn't a personal preference issue, but I it's not, I want to start experimenting with what you guys believe are issues, and weed it out from there for myself.
Thanks!
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 11:23
LAV said that he is not a big fan of VFG's, but that they do have a place. The reason that he doesn't care for them is because he teaches to put your support hand far out on the front of the carbine and really grip it and pull it into your shoulder. LAV teaches the most aggressive carbine stance that I've ever seen used, and I quite like it.
OTOH, in the recent low light class, he made mention that the VFG can be valuable if you have several devices (white light, vis/IR lasers) that need activated. He also teaches a low light transition where you tuck the inop long gun under your support arm and use the light on it while you draw and engage the threat one-handed with the pistol. He said in this case the VFG aids in leveraging the light onto target.
Failure2Stop
11-23-07, 11:24
Please do not take this as a critisizm of your shooting technique but you are aware of the gas venting path in the gun in case of a cartidge failure or a severe overload.
From an engineering standpoint the use of a VFG is a moot point. Holding the magazine well is certainly not to be recomended.
Bill- thank you for your input, and please do not take this as implying that you are incorrect, but as clarification and information gathering on my part.
From what I have seen with AR kBs, gas is vented, as you say, down the magazine, resulting in magazine blow-out. Though the magazine usually stays in the weapon, the floor plate is blown off, along with the ammunition, follower and spring. I have seen no damage to the front of the magazine well even with catastrophic failure of the upper receiver.
Pics HERE (http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/ar15kaboom.html)
Another one HERE (http://www.quarterbore.com/library/articles/M16rupture.ppt#257,3,Slide 3)
One more HERE (http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/ar15kaboom3.htm)
In a thread on another forum, a kB caused damage to only the upper receiver and bolt/BGC.
Pat Rogers personally had a kB, IIRC was utilizing a magwell grip, no injuries, as thankfully his Oakleys stopped a chunk of aluminum from entering his eye.
To be clear, the way I grip the magwell, is not really a magwell "grip", as only the pinkie and ring finger really make contact with the magwell, and the pinkie rests above the lip on the magwell.
My magwell grip also allows me to physically remove all magazines during a reload. This completely eliminates the possibility that I have an empty magazine stuck in the weapon when I try to stuff a new magazine into the magwell. Further, I can reacquire my grip faster than when having to move my hand forward to a VFG. Also, without a VFG I don't have any concern about the VFG interfering with my reloads or corrective actions.
I have personally never had a kB, but I have had quite a few stuck magazines. I focused on improving my skills in the situations that would be the most critical to my team-mates and myself.
I have never seen credible proof (hospital report/accident report) that a magwell hold (as I describe) has led to serious injury. However, I have seen reports of injury sustained from spontaneously disassembling upper receivers causing injury to the face/eyes, as well as obstructed bores causing injury to the support hand when gripping the handguard. I do not recommend against gripping the handguard though.
If, however, you have information/reports/photos that I do not, I would be very interested in it. As I said, I am not attempting to discredit or attack you, just explaining my reasoning and try to gather more information. As a manufacturer I am sure that you have done much more testing than I personally have, and are probably privvy to manufacturing concepts that I am not.
Thanks for your time and concern.
toddackerman
have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury, so for the sake of this discussion, I'm not willing to use this method unless it is absolutely necessary for a "Special Requirement" shot. Certainly not as my Standard Method.
Pretty much agreeing with just about every the "Pros"regarding VFG's I see here. Still very interested in the "Cons" anyone has experienced.
Can anyone who has had training from several "Noted Instructors" I.e., Vickers, Rogers, Pincus etc. share their thoughts and the "Whys" with us? I'm not sure this just isn't a personal preference issue, but I it's not, I want to start experimenting with what you guys believe are issues, and weed it out from there for myself.
Thanks!
OK.. now your getting in to a pet peeve of mine.. the mag well hold...
This is a topic that circulates the Internet with stories of Kabooms and the "could haves" and "what ifs" based solely on a few pics and noting more.
I have never seen one shred of documented proof of anyone using a mag well hold that had a kaboom doing anymore serious damage to there hand then what would happen to there face.
Yet guys perpetuate this by parroting something they have never seen or experienced first hand.. just based off of pictures on the internet.
Hell.. Most guys will never shoot enough ammo in there life time where they might actually fall in to the odds of actually having a Kaboom in the first place.. let alone having one... while holding the mag well and actually doing serious damage to the hand (loss of digits..mangled hand,etc)
If I did not think the VFG had some merit.. I would not use it.. like any tool in a tool box.. you try it and see if it works..
That said I have shot under several Instructors... some like and use the VFG.. (Pat Rogers) and )some don't.. (Greg Sullivan)there not there to make you do it there way.. they are there to show you A WAY and let you go from there.
I believe the benefits of the grip have already been stated many times.
Allows a better fighting stance when shooting squared up vs. bladed..
Allows you to control the weapon and drive it on Multiple targets quicker..
Helps control muzzle climb...
Failure2Stop
11-23-07, 11:35
I have seen too many "Kaboom" Pics where the Mag Well hold resulted in serious injury...
Would you mind posting those pictures? I have been unable to find any and would like to see them.
Please do not take this as doubting your information or integrity, I would just like to see the pics.
ETA: Apologies for the derailment of this thread.
To bring it back on track for at least the end of my post:
Most instructors I have trained with really don't care if you use a VFG or not, just that you know how to use it. Pat uses a grip like mine on his VFG, thus his preponderance toward stubby grips.
Just this year I have trained with both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers, and have trained with several other trainers over the years. Each trainer has a different background and different reasons why they choose the gear they choose. I choose my gear based on my personal experiences and what works best for me. Something that needs some consideration: my mission and the gear that I carry may be drastically different than the trainer that I'm training under.
It has been said by men much smarter and much more experience than me: "The mission drives the gear" (the gear doesn't drive or direct the mission).
I copied my reply from another thread as to why and when *I* use a vertical foregrip:
(the quote was written by the guy that started the discussion, my reply is under his quote)
Originally posted by xxx_x:
I learned in architecture school that the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning. "Form follows function", if you will. In other words, if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid.
Brown Rifle
The goal is to be able to hit a man-sized target out to 200 yards and have enough energy at that range for the bullet used to terminally perform properly. Ideally it would also be capable of making shots with even greater precision if required. This rifle is intended to be a "general purpose" rifle (as much as that is possible) or could be thought of as a "field" rifle.
Brown Rifle
Trijicon TA33R-8 (http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/products1.cfm?PartID=557&back_row=2&categoryID=3).
3x30, 7 oz., red chevron ranging reticle calibrated for .223 and 1.9" of eye relief.
The 3x is nice to have when reaching out a little further.
Vertical Foregrip
There is a move lately to eliminate the vertical foregrip for some shooters. Many of the 3-Gun shooters have gotten away from it.
(Start of my reply):
Xxx,
Excellent write up of what you use and why you use it. VERY well thought out!!!
I quoted only parts of your thread (use of vertical foregrips). I love vertical foregrips. That being said, within the last year or so I have found that they are not the answer for *every situation*.
For several years I ran a vertical foregrip on ALL my AR15's. Like you I shoot a lot of matches. Matches / competition is a great way to test out your gear and learn new lessons / skills about your gun, your accessories, your optic, and you as a marksman.
As you pointed out: "Form follows function" AND "the only way you can truly evaluate whether a design, or "solution", is successful is to know what the intent was at the beginning"
For years I looked down on 3-gunners and competition shooter as just being "gamers". Then I started to learn that there were things that I could learn from the 3 - gun / competition shooter. Many of 3-gunners / competition shooters have excellent weapons handling skills and excellent speed.
As a group, 3-gunners have to be the largest group of guys that truely believe in the "if a thing looks stupid but it does what it is supposed to do and does it very well, it's not stupid" mind set.
I really started to pay attention to the "Gamers" or competion shooters at matches (the guys with no Military / Law Enforcement / Tactical Shooting background) and noticed how fast some of them were with the rifle.
I noticed that none of them used vertical foregrips and all of them gripped the forend and extended their index finger (pointing it at the target). I notice how fast their transitions from target to target were and how they could stop the gun on a dime when transitioning from one target to another.
I knew there had to be a reason these guys were not using vertial foregrips on their rifles for medium to long range rifle shooting.
I figured that I would try shooting a match without a vertical foregrip on my mid-length that had a TA-11 ACOG mounted on it to see if I shot any better without the vertical foregrip.
The monthly rifle match I shoot has targets from distances of 1 yard out to 425 yards. I IMMEDATELY noticed how much better I shot and how much more comfortable I was WITHOUT the vertical forgrip when using the 3.5x ACOG.
I found that I could drive the gun much faster, transition from target to target and stop on a dime, had an easier time steadying the gun on a barricade, was able to pull the gun in tighter to my shoulder, was more steady with the gun off hand and unsupported positions, etc.
My reply from another post on the same subject:
After much trial and error, I have come to the following conclusion: -Guns that I do a lot of CQB work with I prefer the vertical foregrip. The vertical foregrip helps me "drive" the gun on closer targets, is more ergonomical for accessing a weapon mounted light, gives more power on muzzle strikes and weapon retention, etc.
On guns that I do a lot of *long range shooting* with, I prefer NO vertical foregrip, because I can steady the gun much better on longer shots without the vertical foregrip. The lack of a vertical foregrip also helps me drive and stop the gun better when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances, and has an advantage on barricades, etc. The rifle match has 75%+ of the targets placed from 100 yards to 425 yards.
Something that I noticed when using a vertical foregrip and long range targets....when I would transition from one target to another, I would always pass the target I was transitioning to and have to come back to it (ie. I would "over shoot" or by pass the target).
I don't know why, but on close targets I can drive the gun and stop on a dime at close distances....but at long range targets, I would always pass the target and have to come back to it.
Without a vertical foregrip, I can stop on a dime when transitioning from one target to another at longer distances. Without a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand round the forend and point my index finger in the same direction as the muzzle (index finger is pointing forward along the 9 o'clock rail)
Example:
demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/PRM-2006.11/?smaller=D100_5707_img.jpg
On my guns that have ACOG's, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x M2's, (guns set up for medium to long range shooting) I have removed the vertical foregrips and run just the LaRue handguard and Tango Down pannels.
On my guns with Aimpoints / Short Dots (work guns or guns set up for close to medium range shooting), I still run the vertical foregrips.
Distance = time. Time affords you the ability to get into more stable positions (ie. sitting, prone, braced kneeling, the use of barricades, etc, etc.) In these position a vertical foregrip has no advantage, and can often get in the way. When most of your shots are closer and you are in the standing position or on the move, this is the area where the vertical foregrip shines. I guess it's all about selecting the right tool for the job. Just my opinion based on my personal experiences, as with all things, your milage may vary.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5775
Just a suggestion: Try the brown gun without the vertical foregrip at a couple matches (medium to longer range matches) and see if it works for you. I found on my medium to long range guns (using a magnified optic like the ACOG 3.5x) that NOT using a vertical foregrip has a LOT of advantages an no disadvantages. Your Milage May Vary
Take care and stay safe,
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 12:03
I have had LAV explain his reasoning for his method and I have read Pat Roger's reasoning for his method (I have a stubby grip on one of my AR's) and I understand both methodologies.
Could someone explain to me the benefit of using a magwell grip? I don't see it too often with AR's but I do see it routinely from a couple of training outfits when they shoot AK's...
The benefit is the same as using the VFG when you don't have one (AK comes to Mind).
Using the Magwell grip keeps you hand in a better fighting stance (squared up)..
Allows you to pull straight back on the weapon for better control,etc.
Guys were using the Magwell technique before VFG's
Remember it was the U.S.Marines that taught using your weak hand to just "support" the weapon..ala Highpower style shooting when on the Qual course. Shooting standing for score..technique works great for that ( I shoot Highpower..M1A) but for anything else it is less then optimal.
Times change and so do techniques and tactics.....:)
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 12:27
The benefit is the same as using the VFG when you don't have one (AK comes to Mind).
Using the Magwell grip keeps you hand in a better fighting stance (squared up)..
Allows you to pull straight back on the weapon for better control,etc.
Guys were using the Magwell technique before VFG's
Remember it was the U.S.Marines that taught using your weak hand to just "support" the weapon..ala Highpower style shooting when on the Qual course. Shooting standing for score..technique works great for that ( I shoot Highpower..M1A) but for anything else it is less then optimal.
Times change and so do techniques and tactics.....:)
Understand pulling the gun into the shoulder but damn, not too much leverage on the gun to drive it with the support hand that close to the strong hand.
Anyway, the weak hand to just support the rifle is STILL being taught by some carbine instructors - ask me how I know...
I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear.
I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower).
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
Think of your carbine like a board that is supported at one end. If you wanted the best control over the board when moving it up and down and left to right where would you want to put the support? Would you want it close to the end that is already supported, in the middle, or as close as you can get it to the unsupported end?
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the end of the board that is not being supported as possible.
Moving the hand or vertical foregrip as close as you can get it to the unsupported end of the gun (ie. the muzzle) provides the best level of support and also helps you drive and control the gun much better.
With the vertical foregrip I'm constantly pushing rearward on the vertical foregrip, thus providing constant rearward pressure into my shoulder.
When I'm NOT using a vertical foregrip, I wrap my hand around the handguard (like you would wrap your hand around any cylinder shaped object), with my index finger pointing in the same direction as the muzzle (resting on the 9 o'clock rail).
With my hand in this position I can provide constant rearward pressure into my shoulder. Having my hand in this position provides much more control and I can drive the gun much better and stop on a target without overshooting it and having to come back to it. I have noticed that when I have my hand closer to the delta ring that I can't stop the gun as quickly when transitioning from one target to another at medium to long distances and often over shoot or go past the target and have to come back to it.
Here is a visual of how I hold the gun without a vertical foregrip and can provide constant rearward pressure and have much better control:
http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/smaller/D461_9146_img.jpg
Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/photo/PRM-2007.07/medium/D461_9146_img.jpg)
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Heavy Metal
11-23-07, 14:29
One thing I have been able to use a VFG for is what I call a 'monopod on top of fist' rest.
I use a full length Tango Down VFG and make a sideways fist with my weak hand and monopod the VFG on top of that. (While prone of course)
This has allowed me to make some precise shots at range.
HLDefender
11-23-07, 15:46
One thing I have been able to use a VFG for is what I call a 'monopod on top of fist' rest.
I use a full length Tango Down VFG and make a sideways fist with my weak hand and monopod the VFG on top of that. (While prone of course)
This has allowed me to make some precise shots at range.
Thats actually the idea the lead me to getting the Grip Pod for fast prone shooting....
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2003_0101metal0021.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/HOMELANDEFENDER/2003_0101metal0023.jpg
HLD...
I'm one of the people who started (and continues) in the 3-gun world, and stepped over the line a few years ago to study some of this defensive stuff (formally) too. I used to grip the foreend as far foward as I could with my finger pointing at the targets/threats, but my arms are too stubby (think T-Rex ... big head, short arms) and I end up gripping pretty close to the delta ring.
After that I switched to magwell grip and it worked really well for me. Unlike most 3-gun shooters, I've always shot 16 inch and 14.5 inch gunswith carbine length gas systems. That meant my gun tended to move a lot more than a really slick rifle-length system with an adjustable gas block and a good compensator. When I put my support side paw around the magwell and started pulling back into my shoulder, I got much better control, albeit my transitions (target to target) were maybe a bit slower. I did that for a few years and it worked okay.
Recently I decided I wanted to eliminate tape switches from my guns, and with my stubby arms, the only way I could make it work was with a vertical foregrip and mounting the light so I could hit it with my thumb. My foregrip is as far back as I can get it (short arms again) without interfering with mag changes and such. I can still get good purchase to pull the gun into my chest, but I have maybe another couple of inches of lever to help with transitions. I've decided I like it (for now), which is why I committed to the DD Omega.
The downside is of course the weight. And it seems to be an attractive nuisance ... all of that rail space and hollow places inside the vertical grip ... it's tough to resist putting stuff there that seems like it might make things better. Leaving the foregrip empty is a suggestion I will probably implement soon (or go to an even lighter foregrip with no opening inside). It's not so much the weight in absolute terms, but the location of the weight (as some other mentioned). The more mass you put toward the front, the slower you will be with transitions.
Another thing that the foregrip enhances (and was the element that put me over the top to get a railed forearm) is the ready position I use now. Henk Iverson calls it "high stock ready" and it works really well for me, plus it works in place of both a conventional low ready and an "indoor ready." It's certainly possible to use it if you don't have a vertical foregrip, but for me it makes it a lot easier.
Although I am about as far from the HSLD tactical world that one can get, I do shoot 3gun. The VFG issue is one that I have considered over and over for several years. Although I've tried using them, I have never felt comfortable with VFG's. Each attempt was less than satisfactory for me including one experience with the fore grip tangling up in the sling on a transition.
Since the stubbies have appeared on the market I've been considering one for my SBR but just can't seem to get enough enthusiasm to go ahead and order one.
BushmasterFanBoy
11-23-07, 22:55
Does anyone know exactly where the best spot for a VFG is? I'm using one on my 13.2" railed AR and the setup isn't exactly conventional, and I'm left wondering what spot works best in this situation. My Eotech is mounted at the very back of the railed foreend. This means the guns center of balance is right at the first few inches of rail. I've had my VFG rearward most of the time, and it seems to work ok, but I've seen some pics of guys who know what they are doing with VFG's being run all the way out on 7" rails and even further where rail space allows it.
Should I keep my VFG back under my Eotech at around space 18 or run it out to around 28 or 30?
Also, I use the KAC VFG and I run it with a wrap around grip, although sometimes I take my supporting hand index finger and "point" it down the side of the rail system (between the 6 and 9 o'clock rails), much like a firing hand index finger is pointed down the side of the receiver when not shooting. I do this keeping all my other fingers wraped around the VFG and held high on the grip. I find this adds a bit of stability when I need to make "longer" shots (100 yards or further) Anyways, I shot a stubby VFG (tango down) and just can't get use to the idea of adopting a magwell like grip on a VFG. I use the wrap grip to pull and keep recoil under control all the same, but it feels like the gun loses "pointability" when that grip is used. Is this acceptable or is there something I can do to "jump on the bandwagon"?
Jay Cunningham
11-23-07, 23:43
It IS possible to overthink some things.
Put the VFG where it feels best and most natural for you. We are all built differently - assume a natural fighting stance with your carbine and see where your hands wind up.
Later on if a certian instructor wants you to move or remove it, go with what they say while you're training with them. Then evaluate what you like.
:cool:
I
I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower).
Kind of hard to explain this via a written message but here goes:
You do a good job of putting it down in typed form.
While I have experimented with putting the grip out front, I never really give it a chance. I can't use the light with my grip so far forward on a carbine length sysytem with a 7" rail. I don't want to use presure pads, and can't think of any other way to do it, minus using a longer rail. Thoughts on this?
I’m an old guy and I have old guy things… I still have an original M4 carbine from the early 1990s that has an M4A2 receiver and is completely rail-less “gasp”.
The M4 carbine answer back in the day, in the pre M4A1 flat top rail and RIS system days that is, was a M203 side sling swivel, a surefire M500 carbine light, and an aimpoint mounted on top of the carry handle in an ARMS mount. If I remember correctly the mount was originally designed for use on the Canadian Army’s C7 rifles.
The only vertical grip that I think was available at that time for the M4 was something called the SVG (short vertical grip) which was an Israeli designed copy of the Heckler and Koch MP5 K froward grip. It was made in Israel for the IDF’s Colt M16 carbines. It was much smaller than the current flavor for fore grips. These grips are very well constructed and have a storage compartment in the bottom. Additionally they are dam near indestructible.
The surefire M500 carbine handguards had an optional attachment point all the way forward on the bottom handguard that was screwed in place through the vent holes for the mounting of the fore grip.
This system worked very well for me as I could grasp the fore grip for any shooting at bayoneting distances, and grasp the hand guard farther back for any shooting requiring greater precision. Additionally due to the dual controls on the m500, I could activate the light from either position.
Combine that with two USGI silent slings that were buckled together as a single long two point sling, attach one end to the front m203 sling swivel, and the other to the rear sling mount of the carbine buttstock, and you had the original “slow adjusting” V-TAC.
Then just add a bunch of strips of colored electrical tape (green, brown, or white, depending on your environment) at odd angles all over your weapon to break up its silhouette and you were good to go. That’s how you used to camouflage your carbine before all the cool guys started to paint their weapons to match the terrain of the AO. The first time I saw a painted USGI weapon was in East Africa right after Gulf War Part 1.
Just my .02
For most traditional shooting (prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, ect) I prefer to place my non-firing hand on the mag well or supporting the butt.
For shooting on the move and doing CQC a VFG is (nearly) essential.
However, I am not sure that your average shooter will really need or benefit from a VFG. There is a whole training package and manual of arms that goes with the VFG. Everybody and his brother seems to have a VFG but I really doubt they are using it to 'drive' the gun to the target.
I really don't think you are ever going to need to carry a spare bolt. It might be nice to have one in your parts box, but you will have many other failures before the bolt fails.
I for the longest time ran a VG on my weapons. After attending a Vickers class, I removed it so that I could give LAV's suggestion a try. I kind of figured that Larry knows a thing to two about shooting so his suggestion was most likely a good one to try. ;)
What I found out is that I started to shoot better groups. I also feel that I drive the weapon better when engaging multiple targets. I have never gone back to a VG.
One of the main issues with running a VG is that people tend to curl their thumb around the VG (choking the chicken). This leads to people pulling shots. So if your going to run a VG, run your left hand thumb down the 9 O'clock rail. This will help to ensure that you do not pull shots. This also is a great position to run a light. Put it at the end of yoru left hand thumb then you can tap the tailcap for momentary light. Also, run your VG out as far forward as possible. This will aid in driving the weapon.
Now for the magwell holders. This is generally considered a poor idea for two reasons. Accuracy and the possibility that you will hit the bolt release while firing the weapon. It is true that this position is very comfortable and might a be a good idea if you have to keep your weapon on a target for long periods of time, but it is not good for moving and shooting.
So my suggestion to those of you that have run a VG for a long time is to try your weapon without it. Lack of a VG will save you weight, money and you might just find out that you shoot better without it.
C4
For most traditional shooting (prone, sitting, kneeling, standing, ect) I prefer to place my non-firing hand on the mag well or supporting the butt.
For shooting on the move and doing CQC a VFG is (nearly) essential.
However, I am not sure that your average shooter will really need or benefit from a VFG. There is a whole training package and manual of arms that goes with the VFG. Everybody and his brother seems to have a VFG but I really doubt they are using it to 'drive' the gun to the target.
I really don't think you are ever going to need to carry a spare bolt. It might be nice to have one in your parts box, but you will have many other failures before the bolt fails.
Bolts go all the time as they are indeed wear items. We have seen bolts go within the first 3K and generally show wear (read cracks) around the 5-7K range and can split in half or lose a lug in the 10-12K range.
C4
I have never been comfortable shooting with a VFG. I honestly tried to like them and have bought different kinds to try but could just never get comfortable.
Bolts go all the time, true dat.
Carrying a spare bolt in your VFG is about as bizzare as packing your lunch in the buttstock.
Rifle goes down I'm going for my sidearm, not trying to repair the rifle, that's for later.
I'll agree with Grant in that the magwell hold is more comfortable when up on target for longer periods of time. But for shooting and recoil control it a very bad place since it's so far back and the leverage to handle recoil needs to be towards the front where it happens. That's why one would run the VFG as far out as possable.
I can run with or without and haven't figured out what my preference is. They're both comfortable and I can shoot really well without but for up close the VFG seem to be more comfortable.
What I haven't heard anyone say is that the VFG can get in the way when you have your AR slung (unless you roll it). It can hit your knees when walking or kneeling, poke into you here or there or the tail of the sling can get wrapped around it. It is also a pretty good aid when going from slung to on target in since it's sitting out there waiting to be grabbed. It also, in my opinion, destorys the look of the AR (as if that matters from a functional stand point). Is it useful, sure. Can you work without it, sure.
Bolts go all the time, true dat.
Carrying a spare bolt in your VFG is about as bizzare as packing your lunch in the buttstock.
Rifle goes down I'm going for my sidearm, not trying to repair the rifle, that's for later.
Your right. That is for later. Your now behind cover and need to get your long gun back in the fight. Pull out the bolt and put it in.
C4
John_Wayne777
11-24-07, 15:04
I have had LAV explain his reasoning for his method and I have read Pat Roger's reasoning for his method (I have a stubby grip on one of my AR's) and I understand both methodologies.
Could someone explain to me the benefit of using a magwell grip? I don't see it too often with AR's but I do see it routinely from a couple of training outfits when they shoot AK's...
One added benefit of the mag well hold is that it is easier to get a mag out of the weapon as all you have to do is pull your hand down and catch the magazine, helping to strip it out of there.
I've seen guys with lots of experience who primarily use the mag well hold. Personally I don't like having my hands that close together. It makes it harder for me to drive the gun.
Matt Edwards
11-26-07, 00:40
I also have put much (maybe too much) thought into VFG. Due to "real estate" issues, I had one on my M4 when I last depoyed, but I do not run one currently and did not before. When I put my support hand "naturaly" on the fore stock, it goes right behinde the front sight, wrapping my fingers around the fore end. Even when pulling back, this is harder for me when my hands are closer together. The guys in my Company called me "old school" 'cause I was one of 2 guys in the unit that did not run a VFG all the time. After training with Larry, I felt much better about that point at least.
I have seen long time users of the VFG taking them off recently.
Like I stated, I don't run one. I have to admit though, that does not mean I haven't run one or won't run one in the future.
If it adds problems or does not make a difference I'd leave it off. If it solves problems for you, put one on. Either way, I'd try to stick with one TTP no matter what the mission.
the possibility that you will hit the bolt release while firing the weapon.
Being a somewhat unreconstructed magwell holder, I still can't figure out what someone's thumb would be doing so far back that they could hit the bolt release. It's downright painful to hold the gun that way.
I hold the magwell the same way I hold the vfg; thumb forward on the support side.
Discussions like these have some merit as they may get people to try things they haven't done before, and they may find something they like. Ultimately what they degenerate into is bizarre critiques from one camp to the other when the bottom line is that you should try everything, and find and stick with what works for you.
toddackerman
11-26-07, 11:48
Being a somewhat unreconstructed magwell holder, I still can't figure out what someone's thumb would be doing so far back that they could hit the bolt release. It's downright painful to hold the gun that way.
I hold the magwell the same way I hold the vfg; thumb forward on the support side.
Discussions like these have some merit as they may get people to try things they haven't done before, and they may find something they like. Ultimately what they degenerate into is bizarre critiques from one camp to the other when the bottom line is that you should try everything, and find and stick with what works for you.
Rob,
As the originator of this thread I agree about stimulating new ideas to try with questions like these, which is what I'm going to do. Now I have to either get TD rail covers or wear gloves to absorb the heat from the barrel. I don't think my Magpul or SF ladders will do a very good job on this.;)
Being a somewhat unreconstructed magwell holder, I still can't figure out what someone's thumb would be doing so far back that they could hit the bolt release. It's downright painful to hold the gun that way.
I hold the magwell the same way I hold the vfg; thumb forward on the support side.
Discussions like these have some merit as they may get people to try things they haven't done before, and they may find something they like. Ultimately what they degenerate into is bizarre critiques from one camp to the other when the bottom line is that you should try everything, and find and stick with what works for you.
Mr. Vickers believes that it is entirely possible to hit this button under stress. Some people also have much larger hands than others.
C4
Rob,
As the originator of this thread I agree about stimulating new ideas to try with questions like these, which is what I'm going to do. Now I have to either get TD rail covers or wear gloves to absorb the heat from the barrel. I don't think my Magpul or SF ladders will do a very good job on this.;)
My suggestion to you and to everyone else that shoots is to learn how to shoot with gloves on. The reason being is that gloves will keep you from getting burned (must see someone touch a hot barrel at least once in a class). If you live and or want to train in a state that is cold, you will want to wear gloves.
I wear gloves whether it is one hundred or zero outside.
C4
wear gloves
This is another place Grant and I disagree. I went down the glove path briefly, and eventually figured out that, for my application, there was no purpose served and no likelihood of ever wearing them in a fight. They change the ergonomics enough that training with them would therefore be counterproductive to me.
Agree that the ladder panels are not sufficient if you intend to actually grab the rail and would lean towards either the KAC or Tango Down covers for that purpose.
This is another place Grant and I disagree. I went down the glove path briefly, and eventually figured out that, for my application, there was no purpose served and no likelihood of ever wearing them in a fight. They change the ergonomics enough that training with them would therefore be counterproductive to me.
Agree that the ladder panels are not sufficient if you intend to actually grab the rail and would lean towards either the KAC or Tango Down covers for that purpose.
Come on up to Ohio for a training class. You'll be a glove wearing SUM BITCH. ;)
C4
Submariner
11-26-07, 12:18
So my suggestion to those of you that have run a VG for a long time is to try your weapon without it. Lack of a VG will save you weight, money and you might just find out that you shoot better without it.
C4
It's worth trying. USMC03 sent me a drill to try to test out the theory.
As for saving money, I don't get it. The VFG's are already paid for if you are a current VFG user. Probably true for new customer, though.
"Mr. Vickers"? I got the impression he worked for a living.;)
Come on up to Ohio for a training class. You'll be a glove wearing SUM BITCH. ;)
C4
Put that down as reason number 1001 why Rob is NOT going to Ohio! :eek:
I do not function in the cold. Despite being the spawn of two Yankee parents, having been born in the only Southern capital not to fall in the War of Northern Aggression and spending my entire life either there or even further South (geographically, not socially or politically, unfortunately) my blood just can't take the cold.
However, come down here and do a three-day in August, and you'll quickly lose those same gloves! :p
Do both -- there will be times you need gloves -- and times you cant wear them...
I have this weird system for gloves that sort of works for me. When it's cold outside or I know I might touch something really hot (like when I know I'm going to be reloading my shotgun), I wear gloves. Otherwise, I do not.
Robb Jensen
11-26-07, 12:28
I almost always wear a glove on my support hand in competition, training or even just at the range.
I always wear gloves. Everything that happens to your gloves is something that doesn't happen to your hands.
It's worth trying. USMC03 sent me a drill to try to test out the theory.
As for saving money, I don't get it. The VFG's are already paid for if you are a current VFG user. Probably true for new customer, though.
"Mr. Vickers"? I got the impression he worked for a living.;)
It saves you money if you were thinking about buying a VG.
Sir implies that you do not work for a living. Mr. is simply a sign of respect. ;)
C4
Put that down as reason number 1001 why Rob is NOT going to Ohio! :eek:
I do not function in the cold. Despite being the spawn of two Yankee parents, having been born in the only Southern capital not to fall in the War of Northern Aggression and spending my entire life either there or even further South (geographically, not socially or politically, unfortunately) my blood just can't take the cold.
However, come down here and do a three-day in August, and you'll quickly lose those same gloves! :p
Sissy! :D
I have gone through 5 day shooting schools where the temp was 100 and 100% humidity (with gloves on).
Burn yourself (3rd degree) one time, and gloves will be your best friend.
C4
I always wear gloves. Everything that happens to your gloves is something that doesn't happen to your hands.
Exactly. My gloves are ripped and burnt in places. My hands thank me for wearing them.
C4
I always wear gloves. Everything that happens to your gloves is something that doesn't happen to your hands.
Rgr I had been wearing gloves at all time.
A buddy of mine pointed out something while we where out and made me take off my gloves -- as doing work in civies where your trying not to look like a gunfighter is a little tough with Nomex gloves :o
Especailly when you've been valmophanized into a hadji :D
It's worth trying. USMC03 sent me a drill to try to test out the theory.
Could you please share the drill with the rest of the class?
Originally Posted by M4Guru
I always wear gloves. Everything that happens to your gloves is something that doesn't happen to your hands.
Straight up... that's why I wear gloves for -32 to +105.....
When I run anygun.. I like to do it aggrressively. If I have a Malfunction, I run that CH like I stole it and don't want to leave a big chunk of skin behind. Burns, scraps, cuts, abrasions.. all happen. (especially in a 3-5 day class)
Plus I ned gloves in the Winter months up here in Mans Country...;) (Sissy in the heat..)
and another aspect of gloves.. that I like.. is they act alot like the weights you see a ball player swing on the end of there bat in practice. If you can master all your manipulation's of the gun and all it's controls,transitions,pistols,etc with gloves on... it makes it that much easier for you if your gloves are off. Just like that bat weight makes swinging harder then you take it off and Viola.. bat feels like a broom handle.
Harv - I agree to a point about gloves.
I do 95% of my shooting with them on -- however I do notice subtle changes with them off - so I do some shooting like that too.
The realistic point of Rob_S's comment is that most civilians will not be all jocked up when the Wolf comes to call.
For the Mil members there is not excuse - except for some out of uniform stuff that I alluded to earlier for you not to be wearing gloves. And beleive me if we can wear gloves in Afghan and Iraq durign the summer months where the temperatures in soem areas are in the low million degrees ;) - one can wear them CONUS and not melt.
Harv - I agree to a point about gloves.
I do 95% of my shooting with them on -- however I do notice subtle changes with them off - so I do some shooting like that too.
The realistic point of Rob_S's comment is that most civilians will not be all jocked up when the Wolf comes to call.
For the Mil members there is not excuse - except for some out of uniform stuff that I alluded to earlier for you not to be wearing gloves. And beleive me if we can wear gloves in Afghan and Iraq durign the summer months where the temperatures in soem areas are in the low million degrees ;) - one can wear them CONUS and not melt.
As a civy, I will generally be caught without gloves on during the summer months (thinking CCW or Home Defense). In winter though, I will most likely have them on.
It is important to be able to shoot with and without them on. As we all know, it is harder to shoot with gloves on than without so that is why I train with them. If I can get my hits with gloves on then, I will be able to do the same without them.
C4
And as a civy, it's highly unlikely the incident will require that many rounds anyway.
toddackerman
11-27-07, 15:08
And as a civy, it's highly unlikely the incident will require that many rounds anyway.
Not sure what "Round Count" has to do with it, but as a Civi, I train for the "Unlikely" (not the "Likely), and that includes SHTF and not just an "incident".
Back on the VFG topic....
I started playing with my 16" MRP today w/o the VG, and I can see why some believe this is method provides a better way to "Drive the Gun". It kind of makes you feel more "at one" ( No Kung Fu jokes please) with the rifle. Maybe because that's how most of us learned.?
Anyway...I had to do some modifications to get my hand to fit the 16" MRP Carbine Rail (versus a Rifle Length Rail) like move my Scout Light all the way to the front of the rail on the 9:00 side to activate with my weak thumb. I had it on this side with the VG as well.)
In addition, the DD QD Mount that I have on the rail notch closest to the receiver on the weak side has a corner on it that dug into my weak hand enough that it was bothersome, so I ground it down (radiused it) a little and now it's more comfortable. (I can just see Grant smiling about using gloves to reduce wear on your skin). Here's the modified DD QD Mount:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/toddackerman/DDQDMountModified.jpg
Hopefully when I start to work with gloves on, I'll have enough room, but you can see below that it's a little tight.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/toddackerman/WeakHandMountwoVFG.jpg
PetesTactical
11-27-07, 16:13
I'll keep my VG, but am thinking about going to a short one.
Submariner
11-27-07, 17:38
Could you please share the drill with the rest of the class?
Sure.:D
Originally Posted by USMC03
Do this drill and then make up your mind for yourself.
Set up 3 - 5 soda cans or any other somewhat small object in your yard. Distance the objects far apart from left to right and vary the distance of the objects from 25 - 100 yards away.
Now take a full sized rifle (ie. AR15A2) and use the mag well hold and transition from target to target.
Then take your support hand and wrap it around the handguard as shown in my post. Thumb and middle, ring, and pinky finger should wrap around the handguards (like you are grasping a soda can) and your index finger should be pointed in the same direction as the barrel. The index finger should be straight, pointing along the 9 o'clock rail or on the left side of the handguard on the seam where the upper and lower handguards meet (if you are right handed).
Try to get your support hand way forward on the handguard, but do not let the tip of your support hand index finger go past then end of the front end of the handguard (ie. it shouldn't be touching the barrel or the front sight base).
With your support hand in this position, you will have a good grip with the support hand thumb, middle, ring, and pinky fingers. With this grip, pull the stock tightly into the shoulder.
Transition from target to target. You will note that with your finger pointed, your hand further out on the handguard, etc. that you can stop on a dime, transitions are faster, you won't pass up your target, etc.
Having the hand further out on the handguard gives you more control, especially on medium to longer distance targets. You will be able to control the momentum of the gun much better when the center of gravity is not all toward the rear - center of the gun.
It's hard to try to explain this in a private message. By it's rather quite simple.
...
The reason I recommended a full sized rifle is because the longer the rifle the further you can get your hand out on the handguards.
Also with a longer rifle it's easier to see what I was trying to explain in my first PM.
Take a look at this thread, much can be learned from run and gun competition: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475
I'll keep my VG, but am thinking about going to a short one.
Im thinking the stubby is the way to go myself.
If you want a short grip I would suggest that you try one of these mounted all the way forward on your carbine rail... They are a copy of the original HK MP5K grip, are very strong, and only cost $15 or so…
Just my .02
Buck
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/botach_1974_39477235
If you want a short grip I would suggest that you try one of these mounted all the way forward on your carbine rail... They are a copy of the original HK MP5K grip, are very strong, and only cost $15 or so…
Just my .02
Buck
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/botach_1974_39477235
All the way forward isnt my thing. Im not really fond of CAA stuff but it looks like it will work. I have some TD Stubbys I just ordered for a customer so I will check them out when they are here and probably go that route if I like it or the Bobro.
"Not sure what "Round Count" has to do with it, but as a Civi, I train for the "Unlikely" (not the "Likely), and that includes SHTF and not just an "incident".
Back on the VFG topic.... "
toddackerman.
High round count will cause the burns they were talking about and thus requiring gloves...or a VFG that does not conduct heat. Excuse me if I was off topic.
I will say that I tried one for a short time and I liked the idea but hated that when my hand wasn't on it, it was banging me in the leg when I walked or ran. The stubby grip might be something I try next.
toddackerman
11-27-07, 21:13
"Not sure what "Round Count" has to do with it, but as a Civi, I train for the "Unlikely" (not the "Likely), and that includes SHTF and not just an "incident".
Back on the VFG topic.... "
toddackerman.
High round count will cause the burns they were talking about and thus requiring gloves...or a VFG that does not conduct heat. Excuse me if I was off topic.
I will say that I tried one for a short time and I liked the idea but hated that when my hand wasn't on it, it was banging me in the leg when I walked or ran. The stubby grip might be something I try next.
No Foul TWR. Just wanted to get it back on my original topic of why or why not use a VG. It just so happened I asked to do this after your post.
My point was that you can very quickly put 30 rounds through a rifle, and heat it up pretty good, so you don't have to be in the middle of hording off the Zombies to heat things up. I can see the others point about gloves to ease the cuts, scrapes, and protecting from heat that anyone who trains hard gets on their hands. I know that even with the VG, I'd get "Chipped Up" pretty good sometimes.
So, after all of this, I'm going to work w/o a VG for awhile,and try some Vickers gloves to keep the heat down and train more rigorously as far as operating the weapon. Which, I haven't really done for fear of "Drawing More Blood" on the wrong guy....Me!
BushmasterFanBoy
11-27-07, 21:52
If you want a short grip I would suggest that you try one of these mounted all the way forward on your carbine rail... They are a copy of the original HK MP5K grip, are very strong, and only cost $15 or so…
Just my .02
Buck
I had one of those before short VFG's were "cool". It was the first VFG I ever had, mounted it on some SAMCO M33's when I got my first AR. After a month, I got a Tango Down grip and now I live happy with a KAC. I simply don't like short VFG's, whats the point? VFG's have never gotten in my way at all.
ETA: My personal reason for VFG's is heat. I simply shoot so much that the rails heat up too much to hold onto, short of using gloves. A VFG keeps the heat away from my hands, especially on hot summer days where the black finish is already sucking in heat. Add just one mag, and presto, you're now holding a lava hot cheese grater.
Not sure what "Round Count" has to do with it, but as a Civi, I train for the "Unlikely" (not the "Likely), and that includes SHTF and not just an "incident".
Back on the VFG topic....
I started playing with my 16" MRP today w/o the VG, and I can see why some believe this is method provides a better way to "Drive the Gun". It kind of makes you feel more "at one" ( No Kung Fu jokes please) with the rifle. Maybe because that's how most of us learned.?
Anyway...I had to do some modifications to get my hand to fit the 16" MRP Carbine Rail (versus a Rifle Length Rail) like move my Scout Light all the way to the front of the rail on the 9:00 side to activate with my weak thumb. I had it on this side with the VG as well.)
In addition, the DD QD Mount that I have on the rail notch closest to the receiver on the weak side has a corner on it that dug into my weak hand enough that it was bothersome, so I ground it down (radiused it) a little and now it's more comfortable. (I can just see Grant smiling about using gloves to reduce wear on your skin). Here's the modified DD QD Mount:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/toddackerman/DDQDMountModified.jpg
Hopefully when I start to work with gloves on, I'll have enough room, but you can see below that it's a little tight.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/toddackerman/WeakHandMountwoVFG.jpg
A couple options you may want to look at is putting the light on the 3 o'clock rail.
When running a vertical foregrip, I use the same grip that Grant described above....Support hand held high on the pistol grip with my support thumb resting on the 9 o'clock rail (support hand = left hand).....with my thumb pointed the same direction as the muzzle.
(this pic was taken several months ago, I now I have the vertical forgrip and Surefire Scout light as far forward as possible on the rail):
http://demigodllc.com/photo/EAG-Carbine-2007/small/D101_5351_img.jpg
When I need to access the light (located on the 3 o'clock rail (Surefire Scout with clicker tail cap), I get a "choke the chicken grip" on the vertical foregrip to use my support hand thumb to access the clicker tail cap on the Surefire.
Another option is to mount the light on the 12 o'clock rail on an off set light mount. This method mounts the light between 10 - 11 o'clock and frees up the 9 o'clock rail.
I like to have the 9 o'clock rail free of anything that get's in the way of my shooting grip. When not using the vertical foregrip, I like to have my index finger pointing down the 9 o'clock rail. I have found that the the eyes and fingers in humans are internally connected. Your eyes will naturally focus on things that your fingers point at. Point at a target with your finger and your eye will quickly follow. Sounds silly, but it works. Give it a try.
There is no "perfect set up", each has it's pro's and con's.
A good way to test your gun, gear, accessories, etc. and to find out what works and what doesn't work for you, is to get involved in 3 gun / run and gun rifle competition (and tactical training classes): https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=2475
Many local clubs have rifle matches or rifle side matches (many IDPA clubs have rifle side matches).
Both competiton and training classes will teach you a lot about your gun, your gear, and yourself as a shooter.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
I have found that the magwell hold or having the vertical foregrip toward the delta ring places the center of gravity too far to the rear.
I have moved all of my vertical foregrips all the way to the front of the rail (closest to the front sight tower).
Obviously you would want to get the second point of support as close to the end of the board that is not being supported as possible.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
That's a good way to tire our your support arm and shoulder but I guess if you can hold your arm and rifle up longer than you need to (provided you know exactly how long that will be) before you get tired then you are good to go.
I simply don't like short VFG's, whats the point? VFG's have never gotten in my way at all.
They are good if you dont Choke the Chicken or ensuring you dont choke the chicken. Just because they havent got in your way im sure there are others who wear there gear differently that may have problems. Also while it may be small there is a slight weight savings on the weapon where you want it.
Robb Jensen
11-28-07, 05:12
I've started using the TangoDown stubby grips and essentially use the short grip as a handstop/index point and really the only thing touching the grip on my support hand is my pinky and ring finger. My index finger is on the 9 o'clock rail, my thumb is on the 12 o'clock rail and my middle finger is curled around the bottom rail. It's basically the same support hand grip I use while holding my 3gun rifle. I've even though of adding of of these grips to my 3gun rifle just so that they feel the same.
That's a good way to tire our your support arm and shoulder but I guess if you can hold your arm and rifle up longer than you need to (provided you know exactly how long that will be) before you get tired then you are good to go.
True - but it gives much better recovery for follow up shots and driving the gun at a tgt to intially engage.
Tired --> more time in the gym ;)
Tired --> more time in the gym ;)
This is a fallacy.
Regardless of whether you're Magnus ver Magnusson or Pee Wee Herman, everyone gets tired eventually, and everyone's stamina is affected by ergonomics and weight. Can Magnus hold a 50 lbs sphere longer than Pee Wee? Of course he can. But he can also carry 25 lbs with a handle on it a whole lot longer than he can that 50 lbs sphere.
Matt Edwards
11-28-07, 10:22
You will get smoked no matter what TTP you use.
For me, If I want to control the muzzel, and try and stop it where I want to, I need to have my hand further out and "wrapped around" the foregrip as best as possible. Still, to this day, I still always have a KAC VFG in my carbine case. I just don't perfer it.
I got a question for you all. As I've stated, I don't perfer a VFG. I have thought, as some have mentiond, to train more with it. I'm sure the more I train with it the more I will become acustom to it. (as with anything) My quandry though, is should I (you) switch back and forth to try and find out to a nat's butt what is a little better, or just take a solid TTP (what I'm doing now) and train more?
IE I was thinking, in my nest class, put on a VFG for the duration or I could just keep building on what I already have. Now, my "old Sarge's heart" tells me to just build on the solid foundation I have, but if there is a technique that is leaps and bounds ahead, I'll try it. The problem is, you can talk yourself into anything.
Thoughts? Hope that makes sence.
Matt
You will get smoked no matter what TTP you use.
For me, If I want to control the muzzel, and try and stop it where I want to, I need to have my hand further out and "wrapped around" the foregrip as best as possible. Still, to this day, I still always have a KAC VFG in my carbine case. I just don't perfer it.
I got a question for you all. As I've stated, I don't perfer a VFG. I have thought, as some have mentiond, to train more with it. I'm sure the more I train with it the more I will become acustom to it. (as with anything) My quandry though, is should I (you) switch back and forth to try and find out to a nat's butt what is a little better, or just take a solid TTP (what I'm doing now) and train more?
IE I was thinking, in my nest class, put on a VFG for the duration or I could just keep building on what I already have. Now, my "old Sarge's heart" tells me to just build on the solid foundation I have, but if there is a technique that is leaps and bounds ahead, I'll try it. The problem is, you can talk yourself into anything.
Thoughts? Hope that makes sence.
Matt
I say go with what works for YOU. 'Old Sarge's Heart' is probably right!
just my 2 pennies
That's a good way to tire our your support arm and shoulder but I guess if you can hold your arm and rifle up longer than you need to (provided you know exactly how long that will be) before you get tired then you are good to go.
Suicide,
At first try having the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a 7.0 bothered my shoulder and didn't "feel right".
After having it suggested to me several times, I tried it a couple more times over the period of a couple years. The last time I tried it, everything "clicked" and this position actually felt better, I found I could drive the gun better, and also found that my arm tired *less* than with the vertical foregrip closer to the magwell.
I can't put my finger on why my arm tires less, could be due to the way the gun balances, leverage, the way in which your arm is bearing the load, ???
When moving the grip all the way forward was first suggested to me I though it was a stupid idea, tried it, didn't like how it felt, and went back to my old ways. After having it suggest by several guys who have a lot more experience than me and shoot much better than me.....I knew they had to be "onto something". It took a few tries, but it works much better for me, and have seen it work for several others who have tried it.
-Jeff
"Whay works for you" I think only goes so far. And, is often used to just quell an argument/discussion.
I believe there are only a few situations where "what works for you" really applies. You'll never know if your TTP is holding you back, if you never give it a solid chance.
Just like your gear, take slings for instance, we'd all be using carry straps or 3pts if we did not want to get caught up in the "latest and greatest".f which we all think is a cherry thing to do. But you'd never know a 2pt was better, if you didn't try it. Not an exact correlation, but close.
As far a VFG, I use one on my work gun, because of real estate issues, it a TG stubby, and I use it much like got M4 does, except my index finger is uder the front sight base. I on one of my personal guns, I had cut the TG grip down, and used it the same. I recently took it off, during Jim SMiths class, and later Vickers class, to give it a try w/o, and see if I like it better. For me, its not much different, so I haven't put it back on.
IF you can't decide, Matt, shoot 1/2 the class with and 1/2 with out, probably switching at lunch, then keep it the same thru lunch the next day, so the fatigue factor doesn't come into play, or different drills.
I spent a day on the range once, doing the same drills switching back and forth amongst two guns onw with and one with out, I couldn't tell much difference, but perhaps I don't have the skill level to tell.
Bob
"Whay works for you" I think only goes so far. And, is often used to just quell an argument/discussion.
I believe there are only a few situations where "what works for you" really applies. You'll never know if your TTP is holding you back, if you never give it a solid chance.
Just like your gear, take slings for instance, we'd all be using carry straps or 3pts if we did not want to get caught up in the "latest and greatest".f which we all think is a cherry thing to do. But you'd never know a 2pt was better, if you didn't try it. Not an exact correlation, but close.
Which is why I always say "what works for you" with the qualifier of "as long as you've tried other options". ;)
But it still begs the question of why it needs "argument/discussion" in the first place. Unless that other person is watching your back, why do we care what they do or if what they do is different than what we do? Why do we constantly get so wrapped up in trying to make others do what we do and defending/explaining our way until we're blue in the face?
Matt Edwards
11-28-07, 14:09
For me, Bob hit it right on the head. Sometimes I worry that a TTP is "holding me back." In this instance, I do not think it is the case. I don't care what other guys do as much as I think about getting the most out of myself. That is the only reason I ever put one on in the first place.
I just don't want to marked as having a closed mind. I'm always trying to improve. I just need to remember to stay away from Bob if I want to feel good about my self. ;)
One thing I do know though, my support hand will be "up front."
Failure2Stop
11-28-07, 14:47
At first try having the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a 7.0 bothered my shoulder and didn't "feel right".
After having it suggested to me several times, I tried it a couple more times over the period of a couple years. The last time I tried it, everything "clicked" and this position actually felt better. . .
I think that this is a big part of the discussion.
Regardless of what side of the fence(s) you are on, to improve as a shooter, one must strive to learn. Every now and then, try somethig different.
What didn't work before may now work as you matured as a shooter, or you (not you Jeff) may have outgrown something and moved on, revisiting old techniques can shed light on new ones.
Maybe someone's technique works great, but does not apply to your needs/wants. Hell, it might be far better than your current technique, but for some reason, it just don't fit. Then again, maybe you are applying something that works great for one application to another that does not fit.
Refusing to learn, improve, adapt is refusing to get better.
Seeing this resistance to change in myself has prompted me to reevaluate my personal preferences and try some new things. Maybe they will work better, maybe they won't, but at least I made an effort to improve.
Matt Edwards
11-28-07, 15:52
F2S,
Good post! I'm not really interested in changing my technique. I just think that you have to be a "sayer" before you are a "naysayer". I'll try allmost any TTP once.
If it helps me shoot better, faster on more accurately, I'm down with it.
Matt
Suicide,
At first try having the vertical foregrip all the way forward on a 7.0 bothered my shoulder and didn't "feel right".
After having it suggested to me several times, I tried it a couple more times over the period of a couple years. The last time I tried it, everything "clicked" and this position actually felt better, I found I could drive the gun better, and also found that my arm tired *less* than with the vertical foregrip closer to the magwell.
I can't put my finger on why my arm tires less, could be due to the way the gun balances, leverage, the way in which your arm is bearing the load, ???
When moving the grip all the way forward was first suggested to me I though it was a stupid idea, tried it, didn't like how it felt, and went back to my old ways. After having it suggest by several guys who have a lot more experience than me and shoot much better than me.....I knew they had to be "onto something". It took a few tries, but it works much better for me, and have seen it work for several others who have tried it.
-Jeff
Jeff, if one is using a longer rail than the 7" would you still move you VFG all the way out to the end or mount it where the 7" would end?
Since I am sure this is open to the do what feels best and try it yourself answers I really am curious what Jeff or KevinB have found out through their trial and errors.
Great thread!
I too have been moving slowly away from vertical grips ever since I noticed how the three gun guys run their rifles.
I think alot really has to do with environment you are shooting in. If you are shooting in very confined spaces were you need to compress your shooting platform then vertical grips seem to work great. However if you are shooting some place where you have a bit more room I've found using the three gun grip helps me shoot better at longer ranges as well as moving from target to target.
This is also another reason why I'm really starting to like the idea of 12 inch rails on carbines. It'll give you more room grip the stock further out.
Here's a couple of pics showing the three gun grip I'm talking about. It's basically what USMC03 described in his post.
http://www.jprifles.com/photos/JPteam2003s.jpg
http://www.eberlestock.com/Neth%20bbg%20sm.jpg
Jeff, if one is using a longer rail than the 7" would you still move you VFG all the way out to the end or mount it where the 7" would end?
Since I am sure this is open to the do what feels best and try it yourself answers I really am curious what Jeff or KevinB have found out through their trial and errors.
If using a rail longer than a 7.0, I would keep the vertical foregrip in the same location as I do on a 7.0. That being said, I have seen others who move it further forward.
Body size, armor, gear, clothing (cold weather, etc) all come into play. Consider that I'm 5'06". Taller individuals with longer limbs may find that they can put the VFG further out than a shorter individual.
-Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Do you have any of your pictures with the VFG mounted all the way forward? All the pictures I can find here and on TOS of your setups show the VFG in the middle of the 7" rail. Would also be curious to see how your light is mounted with the VFG mounted all the way forward.
Thanks again.
UPSguy,
I haven't taken any updated pics in several months. I'll try to take some new pics in the upcoming weeks.
I'm currently running Surefire Scout lights with clicker tail caps on LaRue mounts an Surefire x200 - x300 on LaRue mounts.
The new set up looks exactly the same as the old pics, just the vertical foregrips and the lights are all the way forward on the 7.0 rail. Ergonomics / distance to activate the light are the same.
With my vertical foregrip all the way forward, my support arm looks much like the guy with the DPMS had on in the post above my last post. Slight bend in the support arm instead of a more drastic bend as is pictured in the pics from Pat Rogers' class on the previous page.
-Jeff
Great thread!
I too have been moving slowly away from vertical grips ever since I noticed how the three gun guys run their rifles.
I think alot really has to do with environment you are shooting in. If you are shooting in very confined spaces were you need to compress your shooting platform then vertical grips seem to work great. However if you are shooting some place where you have a bit more room I've found using the three gun grip helps me shoot better at longer ranges as well as moving from target to target.
This is also another reason why I'm really starting to like the idea of 12 inch rails on carbines. It'll give you more room grip the stock further out.
Here's a couple of pics showing the three gun grip I'm talking about. It's basically what USMC03 described in his post.
http://www.eberlestock.com/Neth%20bbg%20sm.jpg
This picture of Neth is exactly what I was trying to describe in my earlier posts. Thanks ;)
The bold quote above, echo's my experience as well. And I learned it from my experinces participating in 3 gun and run and gun rifle competiton.
Kind of odd how people can come to the same conclusions on matters like this when they have simular expereinces or base of knowledge on a paticular subject.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
I personally almost always run VFG's on CQB guns, sometimes on perimeter/mid-range "Recce/Recon" type carbines, and rarely on SPR/DMR type rifles.
After years of running VFG's too close to the mag well, we had the light beaten into us by some enlightened instructors with extensive real world combat experience and for the last couple of years have placed the VFG's much further forward. Obviously some of this is body size dependent. While initially not as comfortable, the forward placement is WAY more controllable. If you want a VFG, mount it as far forward as possible and don’t “choke the chicken”, as Pat Rogers would say. Use a thumb forward grip when possible and pull back against the VFG with edge of the hand.
Some good discussions on the topic below (pay attention to Basicload, Rgrgordo, ChuckP, etc...):
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5606084761/m/2301023041/p/1
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4702&page=&fpart=1&vc=1
Whether it is on a 7" or a 10" rail, the VFG position is roughly the same:
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/11771-krink1.jpg
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/alumni/Portals/0/NTForums_Attach/148365765671.jpg
Matt Edwards
11-29-07, 22:04
It is always wild how things "catch on". When I first trained with Lav, in 2005, he was preching the same things as are being talked about on this thread. Of course he does not perfer the "grip". I was called "old school" because I did not run one and then called "crazy" 'cause I recomended to my men to run them out, if they ran them at all. I ran mine out (after reading the post Doc put up above, by "Chuck P". That is what prompted me to try it at all) for a short time and some of the boys followed suite.(then I took it back off) The ones that took me up on it were universaly impressed with how much better they could run the gun. I was lucky in that "how far out to run my support hand" was never a question. When I ran it all the way out on a 7" rail, it felt more like I was "hanging" on the gun as opposed to "holding it up". For whatever reason, the VFG felt more like I was "holding it up" also, even when pulling back.(I'm also 5.6 so trying to manage the recoil is every thing)
Last spring (if I remember right) a group of "instructors" were sent to my post to teach rifle and pistol marksmanship. They were all former members of the same organization.(One of which was Jim Smith and another was Mike P.) They had all been depoyed since 911 and all, to a man, recomended to "shoot as much rifle as possible" (put your support hand further out) and only to run a VFG if it was nessesary due to space restraints. (like Bob mentiond) or, becaus of body type or what have you, it was very obvious that you shot better.
I remember my former guys comming back from training and looking at me funny. I think they were waiting for me to say "I told you so". They reported it was some of the best training they had ever recived. For once, I felt like I was on to somthing. Now if I could just get a hold of that whole crazy "trigger manipulation straight and smoothly to the rear" thing, I'd be some body.
One last thing that I feel compeld to include. This was stated to me after one of my former squad leaders read this thread and I think it is relevent. He is a gifted shooter and has seen more then his fair share of combat in the last few years. He always says he has no credentials. I think he does. With gloves, I've seen him shoot by placing his hand as far forward as grabing the front sight tower. His statement was simple, "my support hand has NEVER gotten tired during a gunfight." I'd call that something to ponder.
Matt
You know whats funny, Matt?
They taught us that "point your finger" grip at the quick fire range at Bragg, 20 years ago.
Bob
How do you guys who dont use foregrips deal with heat?
I tried using my AR without one once, after about 6-8 mags it was too hot to hold comfortably.
Foregrips for me.
Robb Jensen
11-30-07, 07:29
I grip my support hand on the 3gun rifle and carbines like this.
3gun rifle
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip008.jpg
10" SBR
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/competition%20pics/forwardgrip011.jpg
Man I can't grab it like that due to my flashlight. But I don't have a seperate game AR.
Robb Jensen
11-30-07, 07:50
Man I can't grab it like that due to my flashlight. But I don't have a seperate game AR.
This is why it's been hard for me to figure out how to run a light on my 10" gun. I'm thinking of adding a longer rail (a 9.5" FSB) DD rail or just shave the gas block down and use a 10" DD Lite rail and use a LMT MRP front sight out on the end. Either way would give much more room for a light. I want to run it at 9-11 o'clock on the rail to be activated with my support hand thumb.
Great thread!
I too have been moving slowly away from vertical grips ever since I noticed how the three gun guys run their rifles.
At this point I'd like to express my pleasure at the fairly recent trend of people having positive opinions about adopting (or at least trying) some of the techniques and skills developed primarily by competition shooters.
When I first started posting messages on online forums years ago, such suggestions invariably resulted in a dogpile of kneejerk dismissal and derision. Perhaps people are more open minded now, or perhaps it's just this crowd.
Don't get me started on how I got my a** kicked online for advocating a low-power variable scope for the best "general purpose" optic on an AR years ago before some military-centric people "invented" in the interim. :D
I have my lights mounted in the Vickings mount at 12 support side thumb and tried moving the tailcap into the mount on my 7" gun accessing the battery compartment through the front hoping that I could get my thumb back far enough on the switch. It's the only thing I could think of without giving up my standard FSB and getting a longer rail or moving the light to the barrel although it's still hard to get my hand out there. I haven't tried it on my 9" mid length yet but that might buy you some space. Competition or not, if it'll help me shoot better, faster, I'm going to try to learn it. That's why I started playing.
Submariner
11-30-07, 09:07
But I don't have a seperate game AR.
Isn't your golf bag big enough?:D
Matt Edwards
11-30-07, 09:12
Rustedace,
I deal with the heat by not grabing the barrel.:p
Holding the weapon by the standard M4 type fore grip has never been an issue. With a "more modern" rail with covers, it is even less of an issue. I never even thought about it to be quite honest.
Bob,
Roger. It was GTG with the M16. (Fire Base Mace in Saudi) I don't do it with the M4 though.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. (some times)
Matt
Rustedace,
I deal with the heat by not grabing the barrel.:p
Holding the weapon by the standard M4 type fore grip has never been an issue. With a "more modern" rail with covers, it is even less of an issue. I never even thought about it to be quite honest.
On a hot day, shooting 6-8 mags rapidly, it most certianly is an issue, so much of an issue in fact, that I dont use metal foregrips like the Bobro or Dieter on my guns without heavy barrels, though I perfer those grips to others.
On a hot day, shooting 6-8 mags rapidly, it most certianly is an issue, so much of an issue in fact, that I dont use metal foregrips like the Bobro or Dieter on my guns without heavy barrels, though I perfer those grips to others.
Just curious, what is your set up?
On a hot day, shooting 6-8 mags rapidly, it most certianly is an issue, so much of an issue in fact, that I dont use metal foregrips like the Bobro or Dieter on my guns without heavy barrels, though I perfer those grips to others.
Bobro isnt metal except for the mount.
I almost have the urge to move my vertical foregrip forward a couple of inches.
But then my arm would be extended almost all the way! :D
Matt Edwards
11-30-07, 18:04
Rustedace,
I have had my share of "6-8 mags, rapid fire, on a hot day", sometimes most on "burst". This is not my first stream crossing. I'm not saying it does not get hot, only that I never really got wrapped around the axel about it. It never got in the way any more then heat always does. If you have to fire 6-8 mags in short order, in the real world, you have much more to be concerned about then weather or not your weapon is hotter then you'd perfer. When examining your techniques, try not to get hung up on one possible negative issue. You'll end up talking yourself out of what may be an equaly or more viable TTP.
Matt
toddackerman
11-30-07, 18:14
Got to shoot about 200 rds. today w/o the VFG, and it was basically a mixed bag.
I do feel that I can steer the gun a "little" better, but I wouldn't say that it improved my groups that much in rapid fire. I subscribe to LAV's motto...speed is fine, but accuracy is final, so i don't usually shoot over my head. That being said, I'm shooting controlled pairs from the ready position in under 1 second at 15 yds, and they usually are within 5-6" of each other. I never jerked down and to the left with the VFG, so that's not an issue.
as far a comfort goes, my support arm was just as "Worked" as with the VFG, so no changes there. i am running my hand out as far as i can on a 7" rail, and still being able to utilize m light at the 9:00 position.
It does feel a little lighter and a little more responsive w/o the TD VFG with the bolt in it.
All in all, it's almost a "Don't Matter" situation to me, but I want to play with it some more from kneeling, prone, roll over prone, and longer range offhand before making any decisions. For now, the VFG, is in the Parts Box.
Matt Edwards
11-30-07, 18:28
Todd,
For me, the "down range feed back" was about the same also. I just found it not to be as comfortable, a littel more finese was requierd, and it got in the way in different situations. In short, since it dose not make me clearly better, why add it. (it is still in my bag though)
Have you guys tried timing yourselves both ways with some target-to-target transitions? That's more the tale of the tape than how you shoot groups.
Robb Jensen
11-30-07, 19:50
I almost have the urge to move my vertical foregrip forward a couple of inches.
But then my arm would be extended almost all the way! :D
Dude what are you a T-Rex and not a Rhino? :p
Have you guys tried timing yourselves both ways with some target-to-target transitions? That's more the tale of the tape than how you shoot groups.
Exactly, the timer don't lie. Yes it feels weird at first, but speed and control = accuracy in less time.
WRT to light placement, I prescribe to Paul Howes theory: You should not alter your primary grip to activate the light. IE: make the light fit around your shooting grip. This is why, contrary to popular opinion, I like and use tape switches.
The new ST switch from SureFire, with both a momentary and constant on, with only the movement of your thumb, is great.
I run an 951 at 3 o'clock with the ST switch at the 12'oclock.
I used to run a 9 volt classic in a VT mount at the 2, with the switch at the 9, when I ran a VFG.
The gun w/ VFG has a lazer at 12, and a 961 at the 3, so the ST switch is at the 3 in front of the paddle switch of the laser.
When I use the VFG, my grip is like GotM4's except I usually don't point my finger, its just up under the front sight assembly.
Very little difference between grip with and with out VFG.
As far as heat, since a good portion of my hand is still contacting the forearm/FSA the VFG would make little difference.
Bob
Matt Edwards
11-30-07, 22:24
I'll piggy back on the light placement part of the issue. Since I genrally don't run a VFG, running a light is a pretty big issue. I run a 6P with a Vtac mount at the 11. It has a "clickey cap". I have to alter my grip slightly to activate it. I'm not jumping for joy about it, but it works. Without going with a tape switch or a VFG, I'm fresh out of ideas. Like stated above, I do not want to alter my grip to acomadate my light. I just picked up a scout light (for free!) and am looking for ideas on how to mount it while retaining the standard rail.
Matt
Rustedace,
If you have to fire 6-8 mags in short order, in the real world, you have much more to be concerned about then weather or not your weapon is hotter then you'd perfer. When examining your techniques, try not to get hung up on one possible negative issue. You'll end up talking yourself out of what may be an equaly or more viable TTP.
Matt
Thanks for the info! I will start changing 240 barrels by the barrel!
The reality is, I wont be thinking about it and will burn my hand on the nut that replaces the delta ring on the freefloat rails. The verticle foregrip allows you to hang onto a rifle long after you would have previously been able to while shooting.
Just curious, what is your set up?
The gun I tried it on was a medium profile 16in midlength with DD m4 rail.
Several people have seen how far forward my light is and asked how I can reach it. I do something similar to Robb except that I don't put my finger forward. I probably could extend it but it would run down the channel between the 9 and 6 o'clock rails. Based on this thread I may try moving the light/grip as far forward as I can.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q111/rob_s/gun%20stuff/6933-01.jpg
Matt Edwards
12-01-07, 10:33
An extended rail would solve most issues. I'll get one someday.
Rustedace,
I don't recomend changeing a 240 barrel by grabing it. There is a handel for that.:p
I "understand" your point, I've just not had that problem. Although I'm sad to say that all my rounds fired were not in a perferct training, make every shot count envierernment, I have shot alot of rounds fast. I don't grab the barrel. This consern is VERY low on my list. A much bigger issue(i'm gonna try some things today) that makes a VFG more viable is light placement for me. The only time I burned my self on a barrel (in 20 years of service) was durung training. I was shouting orders and pointing. When I brough my hand back, unbeknownst to me, the left side of my FAL hadgaurd had fallen off. No gloves. Wasn't plesant.
I think the best part of this thread is the "placement of the support hand." I think that is a big deal. I think, for most, that is a much more important issue then weather you run a grip or not. I refuse to say you will never see me with a VFG.(you may see me today) All math aside, It kinda gets in the way for me. I just don't think it is justified for everyone. That does not mean it is no good or does not serve a purpose. "Over there", my PEQ2 tape swithch was glued and innertubed to one (all the way forward on a KAC rail). Because the PEQ was a 12 and my Vtac mount was on the 3, I had nowhere to put my hand. It worked out well. VERY well. I don't have a PEQ or PVS 14s any more. The grip is currently in my case.
Here is a typical carbine set-up for us--note the light is at the far front of the LaRue 12.0 rail at 11 o'clock; it is easy to use with or w/o a VFG.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/58559-KotonicschromeLW16.jpg
Jay Cunningham
12-01-07, 16:01
Here is a typical carbine set-up for us--note the light is at the far front of the LaRue 12.0 rail at 11 o'clock; it is easy to use with or w/o a VFG.
http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/postimages/58559-KotonicschromeLW16.jpg
That appears to be a formidable tool.
Matt Edwards
12-01-07, 16:23
Yeah, It does. Can I have it Doc?
I went "blazing" today. I've come to the conclusion, once again, that having the support hand further out is the most important aspect. As far as "to grip or not to grip"? That is anybody's guess. I think haveing a gun like Doc's would make the world a better place.;)
Dude what are you a T-Rex and not a Rhino? :p
Hah! In fact, I have been teased with that particular metaphor before by various and sundry individuals, including (bigcraig) on here.
Perhaps I am a hybrid of some thing ... a T-Rhino! :D
Exactly, the timer don't lie. Yes it feels weird at first, but speed and control = accuracy in less time.
I'd be hard pressed to do any meaningful experiments. In 2005 and early 2006, my rifle shooting was both more accurate and a lot faster. In local 3-gun matches, I was doing pretty well even though I move so much slower. Sometime since then I lost my confidence (don't know why) and my target-to-target transitions are slow motion. In classes I've been in, I get "beat" in some man-on-man events by people who would not have been close to me before. It's like before my concern (with the actual shooting) was to get good hits as fast as I could. Since then, it became a more of a "try not to miss" scenario instead of trying to hit. It really slows a guy down and doesn't help accuracy any either. Trying not to lose almost always fails! There is nothing worse than a slow miss!
It's not a matter of practice, as I wasn't practicing between matches back then either. Although, I suspect that if I did cave and practice some (at least dry fire), my confidence would return eventually. Plus I'd have better skills to go with it. Sounds like a win-win, but I'm just too lazy. :D
Matt,
You ain't Sneaky, but sure--send me a cashier's check for $2500.00 and I'll next-day air ship it to you...
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I think this type of set-up is ideal for a patrol or home carbine, be it in 5.56 mm or 6.8 mm.
Matt Edwards
12-01-07, 18:41
Thanks Doc!;)
How do you guys who dont use foregrips deal with heat?
I tried using my AR without one once, after about 6-8 mags it was too hot to hold comfortably.
Foregrips for me.
Rusted,
Have you tried Tango Down rail pannels on the set up you described on page 6?
During the summer it gets well over 100 degrees here and I have gotten the gun hot enough where I couldn't touch the delta ring, but could still hold onto the fore end, due to the Tango Down rail pannels. When the gun get's to this point, it's hot, but not too uncomfortable to handle with bare hands.
The advantages of the Tango Down pannels is they are thicker than any other rail pannel on the market, made of plastic, with no metal parts. See the pic at the top of page 2.
Semper Fi,
Jeff
His statement was simple, "my support hand has NEVER gotten tired during a gunfight." I'd call that something to ponder.
Matt
Valid point if every one here were in "combat."
Some of us operate in the civilian world where pointing a gun at the problem (sometimes for a decent amount of time) happens a lot more than shooting it.
Matt Edwards
12-01-07, 22:49
Lumpy,
I understand your point, but that does not make my (his) point less valid. Either way my had or my "grip" will be out front no matter what the "mission."
Jeff,
I've always use the KAC issue rail and rail covers. It to keeps you hand confortable with out gloves. For me, the tango down grips make the gun a little fatter. That was an issue for my little paws.
Jeff,
I've always use the KAC issue rail and rail covers. It to keeps you hand confortable with out gloves. For me, the tango down grips make the gun a little fatter. That was an issue for my little paws.
Matt,
Roger that. It all comes down to personal preference. I'm 5'06" and wear a size small glove. I prefer larger handguards (ie. Colt M4 double heat shield handguards, LaRue rails + Tango Down pannels, CavArms fat handguards, etc).
An issue a person may run into with the KAC pannels on a very hot gun is (depending on hand placement), the metal tabs at the end of the KAC pannels can transfer heat thus making it uncomfortable to hold onto the fore end (my response was to Rusted Ace in reference to not using a vertical foregrip on a very hot gun).
"The advantages of the Tango Down pannels is they are thicker than any other rail pannel on the market, made of plastic, with no metal parts"
Semper Fi,
Jeff
Matt Edwards
12-02-07, 15:04
Thanks Jeff,
I'll admit, although I've never had the issue, all my "tabs" are to the front. Just to be safe, I'll turn them around. (good call)
Like I mentioned, I just got a Scout light from a freind. I have no idea how to use it unless I hang my VFG (in which case I'd put it on the 3) I'm pondering as to weather or not changeing my grip for a better light would be warrented. I like a stream lined gun, the way I have it set up now is hard to beat. Thoughts?
Thanks,
Matt
All of this talk about foregrips and position of the support hand had me thinking last night. I still wasn't really comfy with the placement of the light on the left side rail (7:00-ish). As an experiment, I flipped the mount (viking tactics of course) and now the light is more at 11:00-ish. Now I can get my old finger and thumb pointing forward more easily and I can actually reach the light more easily too.
I'm now seeing the utility of a short foregrip too. I believed before, but now I am starting to know for myself.
Matt Edwards
12-04-07, 20:12
That is where I have mine. It works well with or without a VFG.
I guess I'm gonna have to get a "stubby" and try it out...maybe.
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