View Full Version : buckshot vs. windshields
What has research has shown regarding the effectiveness of buckshot against windshields? A good friend of mine is a law enforcement officer who was recently involved in an incident where a fellow officer fired on a suspect attempting to run him down in an SUV. The officer was armed with a P229 in .40, loaded with Ranger bonded ammunition. The suspect was not hit, however the passenger was shot in the face and was treated for non-life threatening injuries.
In the debrief, the comment was made by a superior that it would have been better for the officer to have been able to engage the suspect with a shotgun because "buckshot is superior to handgun bullets against windshields." My friend is interested in finding out if research actually supports this statement. Thank you for your help.
The supervisor is wrong. Buckshot is better than pistol bullets at close range unobstructed shots, however it sucks against barriers, particularly glass.
Each buckshot pellet in a load of OO buck is less powerful and has less barrier penetration ability that a .380 pistol bullet.
Note how poorly OO buck performed in the FBI/Miami fight, as but one real world example.
Slugs are for windshields, not buckshot...
On Magpul's shotgun tactics DVD it looked like it penetrated the windshield on the car rather handily, however, who is to say what it did on the back side? All they had in there was a plastic dummy.
Buckshot is like a .22LR with a worse BC. It isn't very good at glass.
IT does very poorly on car doors. I could not get #4 through a car door at point-blank (well, 5 yards at a slight angle, I'm no masochist!), and reduced recoil 00 wouldn't go through past about 20 yards or so, where full-power would out to about 50. However, a 2x4 of white pine stopped it pretty effectively. 000 buck would go through 1.5 but not 2 2x4's.
Buckshot won't penetrate hard barriers for crap.
We had an OIS many years ago where a 18" 870 was used to launch a 2 3/4 mag load of #4 buck at a suspect who was behind a storm door threatening to use a 30-30 against the officers.
None of the pellets penetrated the suspect well enough to inflict any serious wounds after passing though the door.
For open air shots buckshot is great, through cover it generally just plain sucks.
Not all buckshot is created equal I would figure. Copper plated shot would be important for better penetration against barriers vs non-plated.
According to ATK's tests, buckshot did good penetration wise against auto glass. Some of the pellets get deformed pretty good though. I was surprised by the good penetration. Regardless, I would prefer to have a non-Foster type slug for general patrol use, i.e., Brenneke THD.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
John Hearne
11-05-11, 20:27
There was a memo from the DEA several years ago. It detailed the results of shooting cars with various long gun and handgun rounds. Of the various weapons fired, 00 buck from the shotgun was the worst performer.
Not all buckshot is created equal I would figure. Copper plated shot would be important for better penetration against barriers vs non-plated.
According to ATK's tests, buckshot did good penetration wise against auto glass. Some of the pellets get deformed pretty good though. I was surprised by the good penetration. Regardless, I would prefer to have a non-Foster type slug for general patrol use, i.e., Brenneke THD.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
Hardened or copper plated shot helps, but the primary issue with spherical projectiles is that they have such low sectional density. Before cylindrical projectiles, the only way to improve penetration ability of a ball bullet was to use a larger caliber ball which had greater momentum and in turn better penetration. All buckshot is too light with too low sectional density to do well against windshields no matter how well they are engineered.
Not all buckshot is created equal I would figure. Copper plated shot would be important for better penetration against barriers vs non-plated.
According to ATK's tests, buckshot did good penetration wise against auto glass. Some of the pellets get deformed pretty good though. I was surprised by the good penetration. Regardless, I would prefer to have a non-Foster type slug for general patrol use, i.e., Brenneke THD.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
Note the distance of the test shot; 10 feet
You really want to be 10 feet IN FRONT of a car to be shooting through the windshield?
At that range, with those loads, I am not surprised by the performance since all of the pellets hit as one mass.
Once the pellets spread out then .32acp fmj/.380fmj > 00 buck pellet
BufordTJustice
11-06-11, 14:30
Not all buckshot is created equal I would figure. Copper plated shot would be important for better penetration against barriers vs non-plated.
According to ATK's tests, buckshot did good penetration wise against auto glass. Some of the pellets get deformed pretty good though. I was surprised by the good penetration. Regardless, I would prefer to have a non-Foster type slug for general patrol use, i.e., Brenneke THD.
http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
I leave a box of Brenneke slugs in my trunk for incidents like this (1oz Fosters go in the Mesa side saddle).
NOTE: I usually shoot the brenneke's at the range and I "keep forgetting" to take them out of my car. ;)
There are few things that I've seen that are better medicine for an engine block or windshield than a 2 & 3/4" brenneke slug. Other than a 3" brenneke slug. Haha.
As I posted previously, given Brenneke USA's recent QC issues and the unfortunate unavailability of true Rotweil Brennke loads in the U.S. currently, we have been looking for alternative slug loads that are capable of adequate penetration after first defeating intermediate barriers. We shot the new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slug load @ 1350 fps (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902). It penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield, with no deviation from trajectory and outstanding weight retention. The Federal Truball Deep Penetrator works as a potential Brenneke replacement. As a bonus, it is very accurate out to at least 100 yards.
BufordTJustice
11-06-11, 21:16
As I posted previously, given Brenneke USA's recent QC issues and the unfortunate unavailability of true Rotweil Brennke loads in the U.S. currently, we have been looking for alternative slug loads that are capable of adequate penetration after first defeating intermediate barriers. We shot the new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slug load @ 1350 fps (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902). It penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield, with no deviation from trajectory and outstanding weight retention. The Federal Truball Deep Penetrator works as a potential Brenneke replacement. As a bonus, it is very accurate out to at least 100 yards.
I'm sorry, Doc. I missed that.
Duly noted and I'll look for some Truball Deep Pen slugs soon. I've only shot the brenneke's out to 50 yards recently. I was unaware that their QC has gone to shit. What a shame.
Thank you for the info. :)
Glock17JHP
11-08-11, 13:30
In the debrief, the comment was made by a superior that it would have been better for the officer to have been able to engage the suspect with a shotgun because "buckshot is superior to handgun bullets against windshields." My friend is interested in finding out if research actually supports this statement. Thank you for your help.
I didn't see anyone comment on the handgun... but the .40 S&W is 'THE' choice for California Highway Patrol in their handguns, mostly because it works a lot better against automobile metal and glass as compared to most other calibers. I would have used it over a shotgun with 00 Buck against an automobile 'barracade' unless I were shooting through a side window.
Reagans Rascals
11-08-11, 14:05
OP, was your friend Ok after everything? Was he able to at least get out of the way if he was unable to immobilize to vehicle?
Also, I apologize if this seems hijacking in nature as it was not my intent at all, however; with the current talk of the low penetration observed from buckshot, and the different situations described here within of its very low barrier performance, I couldn't help but question why the 12 gauge has on most occasions (among those on this site) been discouraged from use in an HD capacity in favor of the 5.56.
I understand the 5.56 performs much better in a "little-to-no intel" situation, in which you have no idea at what ranges you will engage, and what type of barrier / armor will be present. But is it safe to surmise that during a bump in the night type situation, where the threat is confirmed to be within your residence, where distances will be no more than 30 feet, that a 12 gauge will perform flawlessly?
Wouldn't the lower penetration of the 12 gauge, be a favorable preference within the strictly "home" gun niche?
My friend was not the officer who pulled the trigger, in case that wasn't clear in the original post. All officers went home safely.
Reagans Rascals
11-08-11, 14:38
My friend was not the officer who pulled the trigger, in case that wasn't clear in the original post. All officers went home safely.
insert foot in mouth... sorry :(
OP, was your friend Ok after everything? Was he able to at least get out of the way if he was unable to immobilize to vehicle?
Also, I apologize if this seems hijacking in nature as it was not my intent at all, however; with the current talk of the low penetration observed from buckshot, and the different situations described here within of its very low barrier performance, I couldn't help but question why the 12 gauge has on most occasions (among those on this site) been discouraged from use in an HD capacity in favor of the 5.56.
I understand the 5.56 performs much better in a "little-to-no intel" situation, in which you have no idea at what ranges you will engage, and what type of barrier / armor will be present. But is it safe to surmise that during a bump in the night type situation, where the threat is confirmed to be within your residence, where distances will be no more than 30 feet, that a 12 gauge will perform flawlessly?
Wouldn't the lower penetration of the 12 gauge, be a favorable preference within the strictly "home" gun niche?
12 gauge buckshot is one of the most effective weapons you can deploy in a close range setting. Its two limitations are that it looses quite a bit of effectiveness at ranges greater than 25yrds, and buckshot does poorly when punching through barriers. It's hard to beat a 12 gauge when you deploy it in the right environment. From a terminal effects standpoint, Dr. Fackler gave numerous shooting examples of how 12 gauge buckshot not only rapidly incapacited someone, but the survival rate was half that of common rifle caliber shootings. Simply put, shot per shot it does a lot more damage than a rifle shot and its cone pattern takes out more anatomy. When I was working in Tennessee, three deputies drove to a double wide to serve an arrest warrant on a low threat suspect. The suspect was loaded up on meth when the deputies arrived, and he had a Benelli autoloader with 4+1 capacity loaded with buckshot. The suspect rapidly shot all three deputies as they approached making them all combat ineffective. Essentially, he layed down 45 .32" projectiles in under 3 seconds. He reloaded, and then finished them off. Even though the deputies were wearing body armor, the scattered buckshot still struck areas such as the neck and head, as well as arteries in the arms and legs.
Dr. Roberts and a number of other experts have been touting that the optimal buckshot load would be a #1 buck that uses .30" pellets. This would be a 15 pellet load and would be far more damaging than typical 00 buck. Federal has been working on this load for LE, and it will likely be available pretty soon. It just means that the 12 gauge will be just that more effective than before.
I would have never guessed that buckshot did anything other than annihilate windshields and whatever happened to be on the other side of that windshield. This was an eye opener for me.
I have very limited experience with using shotguns but after reading this thread a couple thoughts come to mind:
1. It would seem that if the pattern could be tightened so that all pellets hit as one mass, penetration would remain very high, so do any 12ga tactical shotguns have feasible chokes?
2. If a OO pellet only weighs about 53gr (quick wikipedia search, I'm sure manufacturers don't all weigh exactly the same) then how different is that from a 5.56mm ball round weighing 55gr? Except there's 8-9 of them or more?
3. Are there any solid copper buckshot rounds, like a Barnes copper round for OO 12ga?
I would have never guessed that buckshot did anything other than annihilate windshields and whatever happened to be on the other side of that windshield. This was an eye opener for me.
I have very limited experience with using shotguns but after reading this thread a couple thoughts come to mind:
1. It would seem that if the pattern could be tightened so that all pellets hit as one mass, penetration would remain very high, so do any 12ga tactical shotguns have feasible chokes?
2. If a OO pellet only weighs about 53gr (quick wikipedia search, I'm sure manufacturers don't all weigh exactly the same) then how different is that from a 5.56mm ball round weighing 55gr? Except there's 8-9 of them or more?
3. Are there any solid copper buckshot rounds, like a Barnes copper round for OO 12ga?
1) If all the pellets are in a row......why not just use a slug? The scatter effect of the buckshot is the entire purpose behind its use.
2) Velocity and sectional density. A 5.56 55gr bullet travels at over double the velocity of buckshot, and the 5.56 bullet is elongated concentrating its mass over a smaller area. This results in a higher sectional density, and much better penetration since momentum is retained longer.
3) I've seen a few over the years, but they never stay on the market long due to cost. Hardened shot used in full power loads(keeps the pellets from flattening in the wad) are pretty hard and don't flatten out too much on impact. Plus, they have more mass since they are a lead alloy. The only way to improve the buckshot penetration through a windshield would be to use some sort of super dense material with higher mass than that of lead. However, such materials are often very costly and toxic.
Okay, just spitballin' here butttt -
How about if the pellets were just in a lumped mass, not in a line? Forget the choke idea, what if they were held together by a baggie or netting until impact...
I'm just thinking of the effect that a DFFC is meant to have on vehicles and yes, the ball bearings are insignificant on their own but when channeled as a mass... rather devastating.
I can't however think of another way to ensure these projectiles all hitting as one mass other than what I've mentioned, or yeah, all being one projectile in the form of a slug.
Reagans Rascals
11-08-11, 17:24
Okay, just spitballin' here butttt -
How about if the pellets were just in a lumped mass, not in a line? Forget the choke idea, what if they were held together by a baggie or netting until impact...
I'm just thinking of the effect that a DFFC is meant to have on vehicles and yes, the ball bearings are insignificant on their own but when channeled as a mass... rather devastating.
I can't however think of another way to ensure these projectiles all hitting as one mass other than what I've mentioned, or yeah, all being one projectile in the form of a slug.
Like was stated before, I would say opt for a slug if its true penetration you are looking for. Attempting to create a system to keep the buckshot conformed in a line wouldn't really be any advantage over the slug, imo.
However; if you are in a pinch and are only armed with 00, simply cut the casing 345 degrees around the base of the plastic where it meets the metal, leaving a small amount still attached. When fired the case goes with the buckshot keeping it together until impact. Make sure you are not running a rifled barrel, and no choke, but it does work if really really really absolutely needed..... kinda like using a pen casing to treat a chest wound.... only use it if you don't have the right tools available....
I would have never guessed that buckshot did anything other than annihilate windshields and whatever happened to be on the other side of that windshield. This was an eye opener for me.
I have very limited experience with using shotguns but after reading this thread a couple thoughts come to mind:
1. It would seem that if the pattern could be tightened so that all pellets hit as one mass, penetration would remain very high, so do any 12ga tactical shotguns have feasible chokes?
2. If a OO pellet only weighs about 53gr (quick wikipedia search, I'm sure manufacturers don't all weigh exactly the same) then how different is that from a 5.56mm ball round weighing 55gr? Except there's 8-9 of them or more?
3. Are there any solid copper buckshot rounds, like a Barnes copper round for OO 12ga?
Difference here is the buckshot is going what 1300 fps? The 223 is going 3100 fps? Also the .223 has the advantage of a jacket to control penetration and expansion.
Glock17JHP
11-08-11, 19:02
There are few things that I've seen that are better medicine for an engine block or windshield than a 2 & 3/4" brenneke slug. Other than a 3" brenneke slug. Haha.
We have shot a few engine blocks... they are pretty tough targets, as far as I am concerned. I think you would do better to shoot at the threat (driver of the vehicle). It would be easier to defend legally, too. If you shoot into the engine area, it is sort of like shooting a person... only specific areas of damage stop a vehicle fast.
Tyrantresister
11-13-11, 00:40
As I posted previously, given Brenneke USA's recent QC issues and the unfortunate unavailability of true Rotweil Brennke loads in the U.S. currently, we have been looking for alternative slug loads that are capable of adequate penetration after first defeating intermediate barriers. We shot the new Federal (PB127 DPRS) Truball Deep Penetrator 1 oz slug load @ 1350 fps (http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/slug.aspx?id=902). It penetrated 24" of gel after first defeating an automobile windshield, with no deviation from trajectory and outstanding weight retention. The Federal Truball Deep Penetrator works as a potential Brenneke replacement. As a bonus, it is very accurate out to at least 100 yards.
I'm curious, what's going on with brenneke? I haven't heard about the issues, what type of QC problems are they having?
Tyrantresister--Reports of inconsistent loadings with Brenneke USA.
Moltke--Search for the Choke Precision Bonded Buckshot load (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67341).
Glock17JHP
11-13-11, 20:00
Are these inconsistencies with all Brenneke USA loads, or just some of them? If we already have some of the Brenneke USA loads, can we find out the lot#'s of the loads in question? I have the Brenneke USA THD (Tactical Home Defense) load, but I have quite a bit of it, and it is from more than one lot.
Not all buckshot is created equal I would figure. Copper plated shot would be important for better penetration against barriers vs non-plated.
According to ATK's tests, buckshot did good penetration wise against auto glass. Some of the pellets get deformed pretty good though. I was surprised by the good penetration. http://le.atk.com/pdf/Shotshell_Data_Book.pdf
The Flitecontrol wad in ATK/Federal buckshot loads causes these loads to behave significantly differently from "normal" buckshot loads. The pellets arrive at the target or intermediate barrier en masse much farther from the muzzle than a standard load. As such, they would be expected to perform better than standard loads on windshields at greater range. The ATK pdf file doesn't really go into what range you can expect such performance, however, so it's difficult to comment specifically.
I can say, based on GSW's I've seen caused by these buckshot loads, that the wounding pattern of these ATK loads within the Flitecontrol wad's optimum range is impressive compared with regular buckshot loads. Hardly scientific or predictive, but it's an interesting observation, I think.
I suggest you ask Brenneke USA where their ammo is currently loaded...
Glock17JHP
11-19-11, 19:05
Please tell us...
Glock17JHP
11-21-11, 12:51
I got into my Brenneke Tactical Home Defense ammo to see what I could find... I have 16 boxes. 15 boxes clearly have 'Made in Germany' printed on the back of the boxes, at the lower right hand corner. 1 box had different graphics (slightly), and no 'Made in Germany' on the back. I looked the box over carefully, even opened it and looked inside the flaps where they sometimes put lot and load numbers, but found nothing as to where they were made.
Doc,
Are boxes like this one probably some of the ones you are talking about? I have already assigned this single box to my plinking ammo. In the future I will try to assure that any new boxes I buy actually say: 'Made in Germany' on them.
Thank you for the 'heads up'!!!
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