View Full Version : Cold Weather, the good, the bad and the frigid
With winter approaching (or already here for me in Alaska, and those of you on the East Coast) I would like to have a discussion covering topics related to running an AR in cold weather.
- For the purpose of this discourse, let’s say that cold weather constitutes sustained temperatures of 25 degrees F and colder.
- Assume that there is snow on the ground at least 6 inches deep.
- I am going to concentrate on military and LE use, but understand that a lot of the good information we will be getting is going to be coming out of civilian run schools and training courses and welcome discussion of civilian issues as well.
Issues that "I" would like to see discussed:
- type and specific use of lubrication.
- what gear to use and how you change your setup (relating to using your rifle).
- glove options/ aftermarket trigger guards.
- severe external temperature changes (hours on perimeter or patrol followed by entry to warm building) and effects of that on optics and the rifle.
- Severe internal temperature changes (rifle that has been in subzero temps for hours, and then fires a large number of rounds, heating it up
- getting snow and other debris into the working parts of the rifle.
If this has been covered in detail, please let me know, but I was unable to find anything comprehensive with the dreaded "search" button
Of course it would be appropriate for me to start with what I have to say on the issues.
First, some of the modifications I have made to my Colt 6920 directly related to cold weather ops are:
-Magpul enhanced trigger guard to fit thicker WARM winter gloves
-Hogue rubber grip, I have found that this type of grip works better for me with large winter gloves, particularly if I am getting snow on said gloves
-BCM GF(mod4) charging handle, offers some extra purchase when the digits are in the later stages of getting numb (yes, even with above mentioned warm gloves)
Here is where I am still trying to figure things out:
-good lube, and best way to use it... thick or thin coats?
-cold optics (like the Aimpoint PRO I just ordered from Grant) going into warm buildings... I know when I used to wear glasses that they would fog easily
-effects of extreme cold on battery life and power output of flashlights, lasers or optics
From experiences iv unfortunately had with cold weather training I think I can contribute a little bit. I can speak mostly from issued gear and what conclusions I drew from that.
As for grips, I use a MOE on my personal but I did find that the standard A2 grip worked well with thicker gloves because of the nub in the front provided a solid anchor. Although uncomfortable with thinner gloves like Mechanix, worked well with something more forgiving. Possibly if your in a region with drastic temp changes threw out the year the MIAD's interchangeability might work well for someone who agrees.
In addition to this unless your in a defensive stationary position I would just stick with normal use gloves, obviously once you start moving your not going to need all that insulation, in reality it becomes a burden.
As for optics, I know for the Acog i never had an issue with fogging going from cold to hot, nor did aimpoints. It was never so servier like going from something like 15 degrees to 80. but that's probably unrealistic anyway. I saw people using Divers anti fog pray on there glasses and goggles, some of them worked well but a friend of mine used a cheaper brand and that froze up and looked like your windshield after a ice storm. So take that with a grain of salt.
I think your lube is definitely an important piece of gear to take into great consideration. I once used an oil made by tetra and that literally froze like an ice block, ****ing pissed me off. As a machine gunner I had some pretty good lubes to use. I believe the one for cold weather is LAW or LSA-W but I don't really recall off the top of my head. Ill edit later. It worked well on our m4s as well as our 240s.
Batteries definitely take a hit in cold weather. I would recommend that if you have gear that relies on batteries to keep a spare close on your body (For me in my chest pocket under my flack) to keep them warm. Its not scientific but I was taught that and feel like it works.
As far as snow getting into/onto your rifle, Unless you getting it logged in your barrel Id be lead to believe there's no big issue. Unless your letting it ice onto it. Its not like dust that wont just melt. clumps of wet dirt are a bitch tho. Proper maintenance can overcome any issue.
Id also like to hear what people have to say about extreme cold to hot on internal temperatures on your rifle. I'm sure that must have some detrimental effects in the long run.
JSOP, I like how you referred to the nub on the A2 style grips as an "Anchor", I have been struggling with how to articulate that. That is part of what works well for me with the Hogue grips - the individual finger grooves are anchors. I am familiar with LAW (former 0331 myself) but I never used anything like that on an AR style platform...
I have routinely gone from temps of -25 to a 75 degree apartment in a matter of seconds - so not so un-realistic up here! but I am certain that it is not as common of a problem in the lower 48. Up till now I have fired almost exclusively irons, with a few months of ACOG use in 04' - but the biggest temp change then was pretty mild. Another issue I have seen in the past is after glass fogs up inside, heading back out causes it to freeze creating the same problem that you had with the off brand de-fogger.
Interesting topic! I've done a couple of months of winter training (not with the AR but with our duty carbines, thoughts applies to most weapons though) in temps down to -30 degrees F.
I know a lot of people don't like Break Free CLP but it works in quite low temperatures (- 40 is the lowest I've ran it in). I've run this in our M249 and M240, which get more abused than the carbines, for a lot of rounds in cold weather and haven't had a problem yet. I'm sure there are other products that work fine, this is the one I have experience with though.
I've not experienced any problems with the Aimpoint fogging up going into warm buildings. The thing with glasses is that they are so close to your face thus being warmed up by your body heat. The problem I have seen though is people coming in from the cold with snowy weapons, the snow melting on the weapon in the building and and then the melted snow freezes again when going into the cold which can cause a malfunction. Always try to keep the weapon free of snow. A no brainer! Taping up your muzzle before going on patrol is a good tip.
Regarding glove options. I think a combo is the way to go if you're going to be out in the cold for longer periods. Put on the regular gloves or slightlty thicker and then a couple of proper mittens over those. We use a mitten with a strap that attaches to your arm. The right glove in the picture http://vantar.handledare.org/vantar.JPG Since they fit rather loose on your hand they can easily be thrown of. This also allows for some air around your hand to isolate your from the cold.
And as someone mentioned. Keep batteries close to your body if possible. A cold battery can loose between 40 - 60 % of it's regular capacity in winter conditions.
Hope there was something you could use!
Good topic! I'm still looking for a pair of gloves to shoot with this winter. I usually wear Carhartt 100g thinsulate gloves when I'm plowing snow on my quad but after a few hours of my hands doing nothing but sitting on handlebars they still get cold. I've made a habit of wiggling my fingers whenever I get the chance to keep blood flowing.
As far as lube goes I will continue to use my handy Mobil 1 15w-50 :cool:
Good topic! I'm still looking for a pair of gloves to shoot with this winter. I usually wear Carhartt 100g thinsulate gloves when I'm plowing snow on my quad but after a few hours of my hands doing nothing but sitting on handlebars they still get cold. I've made a habit of wiggling my fingers whenever I get the chance to keep blood flowing.
As far as lube goes I will continue to use my handy Mobil 1 15w-50 :cool:
There are no perfect gloves which give you good manual dexterity while at the same time keeping your hands warm hour after hour. Just like with other winter clothing you to need to work with layers. That or keeping two pairs of ¨gloeves on you. On pair of mittens (keep your warm much better than gloves) that you put on as soon as your not doing hard work or the temp is dropping. And one pair of gloves for when you need to work with your hands or expect to sweat a lot. The mittens always need to be dry. So if youäre starting to sweat put the mittens away and get your sweaty gloves out.
Belmont31R
11-04-11, 16:05
Its not just the lenses but the entire gun can form condensate so rust prevention is crucial. Wipe them off several times with a dry cloth and apply a light coat of oil which has good rust prevention properties. This is also important because if leave water droplets on the gun it can freeze parts together if you go back out.
As far as lenses on optics go I would use some anti fogging stuff for motorcycle helmets. It will be just a light film and will not obstruct the view. I used to use it with a full face helmet and it works great. How much condensate forms is dependent on how humid the warm environment is how much humidity is in the air.
LAW is lubricant, artic weapons and is what the TM recommends for extreme cold weather operation. Some typical lubes like CLP can thicken up and slow the action down enough to cause stoppages.
For keeping snow out of the gun keep a magazine inserted, dust cover closed, and use one of the black muzzle caps.
If you have a standard trigger guard its actually meant to swing down for use with gloves but does leave the trigger exposed. You can get over sized trigger guards from a few companies. I personally use the KAC combat trigger guards. Magpul makes good ones, too.
My experience with cold weather operations and the AR comes from a few trips to Hohenfels and Grafenwoehr in Germany. We spent in a month in field conditions with 2ft of snow on the ground at one point. Not Alaska cold but stayed well below freezing the entire time.
Belmont31R
11-04-11, 16:07
Good topic! I'm still looking for a pair of gloves to shoot with this winter. I usually wear Carhartt 100g thinsulate gloves when I'm plowing snow on my quad but after a few hours of my hands doing nothing but sitting on handlebars they still get cold. I've made a habit of wiggling my fingers whenever I get the chance to keep blood flowing.
As far as lube goes I will continue to use my handy Mobil 1 15w-50 :cool:
Try some smart wool glove liners under your main gloves. They are not too thick and wool is one of the best things for keeping warm. Allows a little more flexibility and layering than just one pair of huge gloves.
Team Chuck Norris
11-04-11, 16:26
With winter approaching (or already here for me in Alaska, and those of you on the East Coast) I would like to have a discussion covering topics related to running an AR in cold weather.
- For the purpose of this discourse, let’s say that cold weather constitutes sustained temperatures of 25 degrees F and colder.
- Assume that there is snow on the ground at least 6 inches deep.
- I am going to concentrate on military and LE use, but understand that a lot of the good information we will be getting is going to be coming out of civilian run schools and training courses and welcome discussion of civilian issues as well.
Issues that "I" would like to see discussed:
- type and specific use of lubrication.
- what gear to use and how you change your setup (relating to using your rifle).
- glove options/ aftermarket trigger guards.
- severe external temperature changes (hours on perimeter or patrol followed by entry to warm building) and effects of that on optics and the rifle.
- Severe internal temperature changes (rifle that has been in subzero temps for hours, and then fires a large number of rounds, heating it up
- getting snow and other debris into the working parts of the rifle.
I did quite a bit of shooting in January of this year in Minnesota. The temps were around zero degrees (or below) with wind and snow. 25 degrees, by comparison, would have been wonderful.
As for garments, I would typically wear Carhartt bibs and coat with multiple layers below. They are heavy, but they are quite warm. As for gloves, Cabela's has insulated shooting gloves are they are usable, but not extremely warm. The problem, however, is that I doubt that any glove that is extremely warm could fit within the trigger guard, even with extended trigger guards. Personally I use the Magpul MOE trigger guards.
As for lubrication, the guns were using CLP and the amounts were generous. CLP did not seem to be a problem. I have switched now to Mil-Comm and I will determine how that performs as the season progresses. Many years ago I recall Chuck Taylor recommending Remington Rem-Oil as the best cold weather lube based on testing he had done - but I have no personal experience with that.
I would note a couple of things about shooting in very cold temps.
Finding a way to protect the face from severe weather and at the same time wear glasses is quite a challenge. I have yet to figure out a good solution to fogging. Also, trying to figure out ear protection on top of hats is a problem. I tend to use Surefire inserts instead.
One item deals with beards: as the temps drop, breath will condense and facial hair will freeze to the charging handle.
Shooting in very cold temps revealed something very beneficial: some ammunition is temperature sensitive. In summer conditions, my M4 would function perfectly with S&B ammunition. S&B, however, in very cold conditions, seemed to lack the power to adequately cycle the action. I had many short-stroking failures with S&B. Testing ammo in all weather conditions seems to be a worthwhile endeavor since we have no guarantee that defensive use situations will always be in perfect conditions.
As for batteries, I have found that while AA batteries are temperature sensitve, lithium batteries such as CR123 are not.
I have not encountered any problems with snow getting into the guns causing malfunctions. I have, however, noticed that different metals contract at different rates in cold conditions. Aluminum versus steel versus plastics will fit differently in very cold conditions. This is not from the AR context, but the Mesa tactical shell holder for my Benelli shotgun would not reliably hold shells in severe weather while in summer conditions it was not a problem.
The benefits of winter shooting are many: no bugs and far fewer people on the range. Enjoy!
For those that operate in cold temps but still want dexterity, sometimes I roll with liners and a hand warmer muff (Eagle made a softshell handwarmer muff. I'm not sure how to get a hold of one). Allows freedom of movement while still keeping warm.
For very cold weather and higher security postures (where hands need to be on weapon controls at all times) I go with OR Firebrands or Black Diamond Guide type gloves (I would also look at the Arcteryx Alpha SV) . One needs to practice with these to understand the nuances of shooting with thick gloves however.
"One item deals with beards: as the temps drop, breath will condense and facial hair will freeze to the charging handle."
I had to laugh out loud at this - very applicable to me right now! Thanks I will keep an eye on my beard.
Chuck - I have had some of the same experience with CR123's, they dont seem to be affected by the cold as much as AA's. If anyone knows why, or if we are off base in that observation please let me know.
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I will note that I wear glove liners under my outer gloves (haven't used mittens yet) because at many of the temperatures I have been working in before I don't want my bare skin to be touching anything metal. I would suggest that if you are wearing over gloves, or mittens to make sure that they are attached to your sleeves some how, so if you throw them off to shoot you don't lose them.
I noticed the other day when I was sighting in my new Aimpoint that the glass fogged over when I went indoors. Temp went from 35 to 68 degrees.
Also when I shoot in the winter I will just bring my AR in and set it by a small electric heater for a little while to get the condensation off of it.
Belmont31R
11-04-11, 17:53
I noticed the other day when I was sighting in my new Aimpoint that the glass fogged over when I went indoors. Temp went from 35 to 68 degrees.
Also when I shoot in the winter I will just bring my AR in and set it by a small electric heater for a little while to get the condensation off of it.
Try some of that stuff I mentioned for fog proofing motorcycle helmet lenses. It works very well at keeping condensation off lenses and such. Its basically just a very fluid wax that wipes off to leave a thin film.
Try some of that stuff I mentioned for fog proofing motorcycle helmet lenses. It works very well at keeping condensation off lenses and such. Its basically just a very fluid wax that wipes off to leave a thin film.
Thanks for the advice!
First time I've had glass on my rifles in a verrrrry long time.
Belmont31R
11-04-11, 18:01
Thanks for the advice!
First time I've had glass on my rifles in a verrrrry long time.
Well glass today is certainly better than it used to be. The 1st time I went big game hunting I had an old commercial Mauser with an old Weaver scope. You could unscrew the rear bell and see all the internals of the scope (not sealed). Now all you need to do is wipe the lens off with a cloth or something (its not going to fog internally because they have inert gas in them)....but the helmet lens treatment should keep it from forming in the first place on the outside lenses.
do you have any specific brands that wou would recomend, or links to the products you mentioned? Thanks!
Still not sure if it is something I will use on my Aimpoint, I will have to do some research this weekend.
Belmont31R
11-04-11, 18:29
The stuff I have I bought in Germany so its not sold here.
Team Chuck Norris
11-04-11, 18:41
do you have any specific brands that wou would recomend, or links to the products you mentioned? Thanks!
Still not sure if it is something I will use on my Aimpoint, I will have to do some research this weekend.
The product below is outstanding for shooting glasses, regular glasses, and sunglasses. I found it last summer. It is very popular with HD riders from Sturgis.
http://www.zooke.com/
Caveat: I have yet, however, to test it during winter conditions. It may or may not work well in winter. I have also not tried it on Eotechs, Aimpoints, or on scope lenses.
As for gloves.
I applied the concept of layering to my gloves. Not that easy when it comes to being able to feel through them and manipulate things.
What I found was a pair of under armour "like" gloves at Any Mountain. They are super thin and allow me to wear them under another pair of gloves. This allows me to keep my hands very warm and still be able to manipulate things and feel my controls to various things. I use this set up for hunting mostly.
Problem is the gloves are over 10 years old, have no tag left to read, so I can't tell you the brand. I checked Any Mountain's website and could not find anything like I got there. So this really isn't any help at all except as an idea.
But if you can find something like I'm talking about, it works great.
Eotech sights that use AA batteries will also run on Lithium AA batteries giving you the same cold weather advantage that the ones that just use Lithium CR123 does.
Lithium batteries are just not as temperature sensitive as other chemistries. The form factor (AA, AAA, CR123, etc.) matters not. I'd go so far as to say that lithium batteries should be used exclusively in duty guns both for their longer life & temperature tolerance.
I've got a cheap wireless thermometer here outside of the office. When winter comes I have to go swap out the alkaline batteries for lithium which work well 24/7 out-doors all the way through MD winters.
Anyone know if those flat little batteries the Aimpoint T-1 takes come in lithium? That might be a worthwhile equipment choice consideration for cold weather use: make sure your gear takes batteries that can be found in a lithium version.
jonconsiglio
11-05-11, 03:46
Anyone know if those flat little batteries the Aimpoint T-1 takes come in lithium? That might be a worthwhile equipment choice consideration for cold weather use: make sure your gear takes batteries that can be found in a lithium version.
The CR2032 (Aimpoint T1 battery) is lithium. It's also a 3 volt battery like the CR123's.
I have an extended weekend next week, Friday is looking like it is going to be in the low 20's I should have my Aimpoint PRO in and zero'd by then. I also will have a good opportunity to get out to the range for the day. I want to run some cold weather tests. I just started mulling this over, but if there are any specific things you all want me to give a try I will do what i can. I would like to get some one out to help me video tape it - any AK members that are available, let me know.
Heavy Metal
11-05-11, 19:12
LAW is lubricant, artic weapons and is what the TM recommends for extreme cold weather operation. Some typical lubes like CLP can thicken up and slow the action down enough to cause stoppages.
Actually, it is Lubricant, Aircraft Weapons. It gets mighty cold at 50,000ft.
I have an extended weekend next week, Friday is looking like it is going to be in the low 20's I should have my Aimpoint PRO in and zero'd by then. I also will have a good opportunity to get out to the range for the day. I want to run some cold weather tests. I just started mulling this over, but if there are any specific things you all want me to give a try I will do what i can. I would like to get some one out to help me video tape it - any AK members that are available, let me know.
What part of AK are you in?
I think the biggest thing to be aware of is the cold-hot-cold cycle. As others mentioned once you get snow on a rifle and then it melts then freezes your rifle might not work that great.
I was hunting ptarmigan with an 870 one winter. We'd drive around until we found them on the side of the road - we'd jump out fire a few rounds then chase them off the road. Once we grabbed the birds we shot we'd hop back in the rig to search for more. About the second or third time we jumped out of the vehicle our guns would be locked up after the first or second round fired. It is amazing how fast water freezes at -20 or -30 F.
The stuff we were issued in the Corps came in a white can, like paint thinner comes in. It was specifically labeled "Lubricant, Arctic Weather - Automatic Weapons"
I wonder what the difference is, if any between that and the stuff designed for aircraft that you are speaking about.
Belmont31R
11-06-11, 11:58
Actually, it is Lubricant, Aircraft Weapons. It gets mighty cold at 50,000ft.
I was going by what my TM calls it.
Ignorant cold (combat operating temps from 20F and below into the negative numbers, i.e. down to the mid negative 30s) changes things for both man and his machines.
Of course shit condenses and freezes going from cold to warm (indoors), and then freezing outside. Try not to do it. Have racks in the vestibule for your long guns if you have to. LAW (Lubricant, Arctic Warfare) is some of the best issue stuff you can get. A 0W-40 synthetic motor oil (at 0 Fahrenheit it still runs like it's at 40) can help.
Cold can suck the life out of batteries. Water will freeze in canteens and Camelbaks. Give a man an unwarmed IV and you can kill him.
Mortar base plates will crack. Vehicles take longer to warm up. M4/M16 firing pins can break. Stick a bare cheek on an M4 receiver extension, a Para Minimi buttstock, or put the charging handle in a runny nose nostril and stand by for hilarity.
Burst firing can generate fog clouds in front of you and your position. SAWs and 240s can generate big clouds.
Try down gloves, anti-contact gloves if you need tactile fidelity, and mittens for survival. Static-line parachuting our mittens were under the chest strap, and we wore gloves with liners until landing for emergency procedures. DON'T lose your gloves and mittens or you're hosed -- dummy cords good.
FREE EXTREME COLD WEATHER STUFF ON-LINE:
http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/united_states_army_fm_9-207%20-%2020_march_1998.pdf
http://www.usu.edu/armyrotc/Tools/Cold%20Weather%20Survival%20TC%2021-3.pdf
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9702656/Usmc-Cold-Weather-Manual
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2472362/Army-fm31-70-Basic-Cold-Weather-Manual
http://coldweatherclothing.info/References/portal.navfac.navy.mil/portal/page/portal/docs/doc_store_pub/p-1053.pdf
http://coe-cwo.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=45&layout=blog&Itemid=27
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA499912
These excerpts are the most valid information from the documents Sinister listed, much of the information is repeated verbatim through several of the texts, it is interesting to note that the vast majority of them are from 1984-2000. Still, some good information.
1) Weapons are also affected by common conditions of the cold regions and the resulting effects on material properties, e.g. increased viscosity of lubricants and hydraulic fluids causing slow response, accumulation of frozen moisture, breakage of cable insulation, and failure of seals. Additional problems include:
(1) Propellants in munitions may have a slower burn rate because of the slowed chemical reactions.
(2) Ice fog resulting from the exhaust from weapons firing reduces visibility in the immediate area and may prevent tracking.
2) Small arms, optical systems, and other equipment used, worn, or carried by the Soldier can be adversely effect by the cold environment. Besides the hazards to Soldier health caused by the cold, equipment may be difficult to use because of material changes in the cold. Some examples follow.
(1) Seals on NBC protective masks may harden and fail and moisture from warm breath may freeze on lenses, eye pieces, and optical equipment.
(2) Exposed metal surfaces on small arms require more frequent application of smaller amounts of lubrication to remain functional and condensation forms on weapons when they are taken from the cold environment into a warm shelter. Condensation that is not dried can refreeze when the weapon is taken back into the cold temperatures
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc...f&AD=ADA499912
3) A visibility problem can be
encountered when a weapon with excessive muzzle blast is fired in
temperatures below -3OOF. As the round leaves the weapon, the water vapor
in the air is crystallized, creating ice particles that procure ice fog and follow
the path of the projectile obstructing the gunner’s vision along his line of fire.
When faced with this problem, fire at a slower rate and relocate to
supplementary firing positions.
4) Ammunition. Cold weather can materially affect the performance of
ammunition. The ammunition should be kept at the same temperature as
the weapon and should be carried in bandoleers. Additional ammunition
should be carried in the pockets of the outer parka. Clips and magazines must
be cleaned of all oil and preservatives and checked frequently. All ice and
condensation must be removed.
a. Burning Rate. The burning rate of various types of propellent
charges is affected by severe cold, weapons zeroed under temperate conditions
will fire low when firing ammunition that has been exposed to the frigid
temperatures. This is a result of the propellent charge burning slower due to
the cold.
http://coldweatherclothing.info/Refe...pub/p-1053.pdf
5) Lubrication of weapon systems is another concern when operating at cold temperatures. It is better to fire a weapon dry in the cold than it is to use an improper lubrication that will cause a malfunction during firing. Typically this is not a problem since, CLP does not freeze until it reaches –35° F. LAW (Lubricant, Arctic, Weapon) should be ordered for all weapons and used when range between 0° F to –65° F. History proves that other lubricants have been used effectively in extreme cold weather conditions when LAW was not available to fighting units. Some examples include graphite, kerosene and diesel fuel mix, and winter weight motor oil.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9702656/Us...Weather-Manual
On the Korean DMZ in the old days we had TVS-7 hand-held thermals and TOW tracking units that would black out after operating for a while in the cold.
If you have a hand-held computer (notebook, pad, I-whatever) with an LCD or touch screen you can be hosed.
If you're laying in an ambush you might be more comfortable on an Ensolite or Thermarest pad.
If you're operating in grizzly or polar bear areas one or two guys in the squad should be swinging a 7.62 -- with live ammo even if it's peacetime.
Failure2Stop
11-06-11, 19:06
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=18005
F2S, that other thread has soom good info as well - but still doesn't address fully (in my opinion) techniques, maintenance and equipment that can help overcome working in cold weather. It simply says "here are the problems"
What I want to get out are some solutions to cold weather issues, but first we have to know what those issues are - whether it be from .mil TM and FM's, hunting anecdotes, or personal experience of trained shooters.
Some of the things brought up so far are anti fog coatings on glasswear optics, type and application of lubricants, and personal equipment to use when handling rifles in extreme cold.
Failure2Stop
11-07-11, 14:09
Preliator- I didn't mean to imply that it was the pen-ultimate "how to" of cold weather, just giving another source of info.
I think that Sinister gave some really good advice in this thread.
F2S, apologies, I understand and tone gets lost online so easily. With the addition of the information in the older thread, along with the information that Sinister linked and the discussion to date; I believe we have identified most of the major issues with running rifles in extreme cold weather. I am now going into "solve the problem" mode.
Belmont31R
11-07-11, 15:26
I was thinking about this today and thought about some type of tube with a boot dryer at the bottom. Come in, make the weapon safe, plug in the dryer, and put the gun in the tube. Like a 4ft long piece of PVC or something.
Basically the intent is for warm air to evaporate the moisture off the gun fairly quickly without baking the gun.
I am sure there are quite a few ways to do it but just something that came to mind.
Heavy Metal
11-07-11, 20:44
LUBRICANT FRICTION AND DURABILITY TESTS
UNDER SIMULATED WEAPON CONDITIONS
TECHNICAL, REPORT,
Bernard J. Bornong
November :1970
Page 11.
"Lubricating Oil, for Aircraft Weapons," Military
Specification MIL-L-14107B, 30 July 1964.
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=AD0717560
http://inlinethumb35.webshots.com/13858/2188427310101546922S500x500Q85.jpg
The A and the W are for Aircraft Weapons. Apparently, the Air Force developed it and the Army adopted it for small-arms use.
Getting gear together for cold weather shoot tomorrow, Should be 2-3 hours out on Birchwood Range. Not as cold as I was hoping for, in Anchorage the high is going to be 28 F, Birchwood is usually a bit colder. Might try again for Sunday as the high is supposed to be in the mid teens with snow as well.
Things I wanna try out - 1st, the rifle is going to be in a rifle bag with loaded mags and in the back of my truck for the 30-40 minute drive out to drop its temperature. I am going to be shooting with different thickness of gloves on, see how weapon manipulations go and see how some very thin sporting gloves work with cold bare metal. I plan on starting the shooting with minimal lube on, and then soaking it a little later. We will see how propellant fog affects target acquisition. Also planning on bringing the rifle into the well heated truck to see how the aimpoint does with fogging/condensation.
Any other ideas/suggestions?
It's been pretty frickin' cold here in Maine the last few weeks. While there are concerns about the firearms, lights, optics and ammo, I didn't see anything about the mags. I wonder how the various mags would hold up to storage in cold weather and being used after cold storage.
So far my PMags have held up well in the cold - I have probably only gone through 3-400 rounds this winter though... been a slow winter shooting wise.
I left some Pmags and some ammo in my car trunk for about a week. The weather has easily been in the single digits at night for a few of them. I brought them in because I wasn't sure if the cold weather would have an adverse affect on them.
Eurodriver
12-27-11, 08:13
All my gear has held up fine this winter. Temps have hovered around 81.
I might be repeating some of the stuff that has been said, but I do have some experience in this field.
1. Try to keep the weapon as snow free as possible, especially the muzzle and fire control. We issue a clothing brush like this:
http://www.maske.no/itemImages/5431041_m.jpg
We use this to remove snow from gear and weapons.
2. Do not use tape or muzzle caps to protect the muzzle. It makes to tight of a seal, condensation will form and the barrel will rust. The best solution is a piece of white cloth/nylon attached with a rubber band.
3. We use Break Free CLP. I know this is shunned like the plague by many guys here, but it works pretty well for us in temperatures down to -50 celcius. Important parts to lubricate are the selector switch, trigger group, mag release, bolt catch, dust cover spring assembly, as well as the normal internal working parts. I am pretty generous with oil, in order to prevent ice from forming. This may be from water beads getting into the mechanism etc.
4. We never bring our weapons inside the tent when bivouacking during winter. We build weapon racks outside, where we hang our guns and LBE gear, after doing field maintenance. We cover this with a Jervenduk or tarp, to keep them protected from the elements.
Jervenduk:
http://www.skittfiske.no/Media/Cache/Images/4/0/WEB_Image%20Jerven%20Fjellduken%20Thermo%20Skog%201213072110.Jpeg
This practice allows us to avoid the warm-cold-warm-cold routine, thus ensuring operational weapons at all times. Ensure that proper field maintenance routines are followed.
4. Keep batteries close to the body, to ensure they are not drained. Lithium batteries are best for temperatures below freezing.
5. For hand wear, we recommend using winter mitts for long time exposure. If you need to perform a task requiring a bit more dexterity we recommend that you use a thinner glove. Switch back to the mitts when done. We use a two layered system consisting of a wind proof outer layer and a wool inner layer:
http://4.sp209.rbit.no/thumbs/sx/e/20/sxe2084b.jpg
http://www.milrab.no/DataImage.ashx/10504178/150/150
Might not look fancy, but it works. Our conscript soldiers, and my unit receive new batches in January, practice weapons manipulation with these on.
6. Be aware that condensation from you breath can fog up optics, so close lens covers when you can.
Here are some documents and lectures from the Norwegian Army on winter warfare:
http://coe-cwo.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=68
http://coe-cwo.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=94&Itemid=80
Fantastic post Arctic1 - I particularly like the tip about the muzzle cover. Snow is alot easier to keep out than water, and those muzzle caps do tend to encourage rusting, I have only noticed it around the compensator so far but rust nontheless.
I can second the lens covers on optics, I am particularly happy with my Aimpoint PRO. The rear lens cap is clear, so I can leave it down all the time, if breath fogs it up I can just pop it off and be good to go.
Range day coming up here in early January, I will try some of this stuff out and be back with a report. Temps will hopefully be in the low single digits or minus numbers.....
Tactical Joke
12-27-11, 16:56
This thread is excellent. Thanks for the great information all, especially the excellent posts by Sinister and Arctic1.
Heavy Metal
12-27-11, 17:37
Nice post Arctic 1!
I really like that Lichen-O-Flage!
An Undocumented Worker
12-27-11, 17:53
Anyone have experience using Froglube in subfreezing temperatures yet?
Anyone have experience using Froglube in subfreezing temperatures yet?
Yes, with the paste about 2 months ago in temps around 18*F (member Antlad's rifle), Also fired my pistol using the liquid today in 20*F, Seemed to do just fine on cold weapons.
I will have a better report in mid January, with a higher round count and longer exposure to cold. The previous outings were pretty informal and round counts under 200 each.
For those interested - The rifle fired was a BCM 16" mid length, and the pistol fired today was a Glock 23.
Yes, with the paste about 2 months ago in temps around 18*F (member Antlad's rifle), Also fired my pistol using the liquid today in 20*F, Seemed to do just fine on cold weapons.
I will have a better report in mid January, with a higher round count and longer exposure to cold. The previous outings were pretty informal and round counts under 200 each.
For those interested - The rifle fired was a BCM 16" mid length, and the pistol fired today was a Glock 23.
Good to know!
Froglube in cold weather update:
For what it is worth - My LE6920 was wiped completely clean, lubed up with the paste after being heated with a blowdryer. I let it sit for a day, wiped it down, relubed with the paste (no heat this time) and left the excess paste on the weapon. I then placed the rifle in my lockbox in my work vehicle and left it outside over night in -5* weather. I brought it straight into the office this morning and performed, or tried to perform a function check. The bolt was frozen shut, with a couple pounds of pressure (as measured by my highly calibrated forearms) the bolt carrier/bolt came loose and I was able to give it a couple of racks. There was frost on the barrel indicating that some moisture was present, so it may have not been a lube thing. The action still seems pretty smooth, but a bit on the sluggish side. I estimate that had I fired a round it would have functioned normally.
Over all, still happy with Frog lube in cold temps.
There are no perfect gloves which give you good manual dexterity while at the same time keeping your hands warm hour after hour. Just like with other winter clothing you to need to work with layers. That or keeping two pairs of ¨gloeves on you. On pair of mittens (keep your warm much better than gloves) that you put on as soon as your not doing hard work or the temp is dropping. And one pair of gloves for when you need to work with your hands or expect to sweat a lot. The mittens always need to be dry. So if youäre starting to sweat put the mittens away and get your sweaty gloves out.
I was recently in the market for some cold weather gloves that I could also wear while shooting. I looked at manzella, north face, mt hardware patagonia and even sitka gloves and ended up settling with the OR (outdoor research) gripper glove. I believe theses are marketed as "work" gloves. I tested each pair for fit, quality, warmth, and rifle/pistol grip dexterity. The rifle was an ar15 and pistol was a usp compact. I also put the OR's to the test in the extreme cold (like -30 f & windy just above the arctic circle) and although they were not the warmest gloves I've worn, they seem to be the best compromise between warmth and dexterity. When I wore liners underneath it became difficult to shoot the usp but the rifle was no problem.
I'll see this weekend how well this combo works with the glocks.
Froglube in cold weather update:
For what it is worth - My LE6920 was wiped completely clean, lubed up with the paste after being heated with a blowdryer. I let it sit for a day, wiped it down, relubed with the paste (no heat this time) and left the excess paste on the weapon. I then placed the rifle in my lockbox in my work vehicle and left it outside over night in -5* weather. I brought it straight into the office this morning and performed, or tried to perform a function check. The bolt was frozen shut, with a couple pounds of pressure (as measured by my highly calibrated forearms) the bolt carrier/bolt came loose and I was able to give it a couple of racks. There was frost on the barrel indicating that some moisture was present, so it may have not been a lube thing. The action still seems pretty smooth, but a bit on the sluggish side. I estimate that had I fired a round it would have functioned normally.
Over all, still happy with Frog lube in cold temps.
I am conducting a similar experiment on my rifle tonight as it looks like it will be quite cold for the next few days. I guess the only difference is I am not using the paste as it was not recommended by frog lube in the extreme cold.
This was also my first time cleaning the weapon since it was "seasoned" this last summer. I was impressed how the carbon wiped away with ease with only a papertowel. I then lubed the weapon as I usually do, wear points, gas rings, fcg yadda yadda...
I'll report back with results tomorrow.
UPDATE:
Temps down to just below zero last night and weapon seems to function fine however I did not fire it. I suspect the action to be a little sluggish until it heats up. The FCG is functioning fine as well.
A 0W-40 synthetic motor oil (at 0 Fahrenheit it still runs like it's at 40) can help.
One quibble: the "0w" and the "40" are SAE viscosity ratings, and not temperature ratings.
See here: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/
The SAE only measures viscosity at 40° and 100° C. If you do want to make a direct comparison, then a 0w or 5w does have roughly the same viscosity at 40° as a regular 40-weight at 100°.
Otherwise, I'm a big fan of synthetic motor oil as a gun lubricant, too.
ridgerunner6
01-02-12, 16:04
Well I've just purchased a Colt 6920 last week and took it out this last Friday on a day long snow machine trip, that is a snowmobile for you lower 48'ers. I used EEZOX as it was recommended by a gun shop in Anchorage and the bottle claims a temp range between 450 above and -95 below.
After using it I can say it appears to work fine, as I encountered temps as low as-24 and the weapon was slung across my back the whole day and it was not protected from the wind and snow at all. At the end of the day the weapon was thrown in the back seat of my pick up where it went through some heating/ freezing cycles for the next 24 hours. On the next day approximately 120 rounds were fired with only 1 double feed, probably due to the Pmags having snow and ice blown into every available space between the rounds. I carried a 511 Tactical Bail Out Bag, and it apparently didn't protect the pmags from the blowing snow enough. My pmags came with dust covers, and I may have to use them in the future.
I spent 4 1/2 years in the Infantry tending to the care and feeding of the M16A2 so the weapon is not new to me and part of that time was stationed in Fairbanks. I remember that we used to mix diesel and CLP so it would work better at temps down to -60. I am looking forward to more info on the cold weather advise as I will use mine quite a bit in the cold. Thanks, PK
I've had significant frostbite a couple of times so my fingers, toes and ears don't like the cold weather. However, since I live in northern Illannoy and my range is in southern Wisconsin, I've had to adapt, that or not shoot for 4 months out of the year.
For gloves what I have found for running and gunning Outdoor Research Storm Cell Gloves are great. They offer excellent grip and dexterity, plus, they are waterproof. For still shooting OR Neptune gloves are the heat. They ave very expensive and hard to find, but they offer great dexterity and are not bulky.
On lube, I use a very thin coat of Slip2000EWL (which is very viscous) but it hasn't given me any problems down to -5 degrees F, so far.
On the subject of lube I've used TriFlow (http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Tri-Flow_Superior_Drip_Lubricant.html) for years and have never had issues. It seems to be the right viscosity to keep guns running without burning off, evaporating or gumming up.
As a cold weather test last year I left a 2 ounce bottle out overnight on our coldest night of the year (-8 F). At 0800 I brought it inside and compared it to a room temperature bottle. Both by feel and pouring & pooling I could not tell a difference in viscosity.
I suspect that most quality lubes would hold up similarly well but was very happy with my results.
One wonders if stories of guns "freezing up" from lube as told by hunters are actually poorly maintained guns that were gummed up and the cold turned the old gummy lube into wax.
Lot's of good info. I spent several years with the 10th MTN and we used to spend alot of time out in the cold. So I'll try to add to some of the great points here:
1. Gloves. For me the trigger finger mittens never seemed to work. Not enough dextreity and would not keep my hands warm. I used/use two primary methods. One I used OR (similure to these (http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/or-gear/handwear/ascent/alti-gloves.html)) or Lowe gloves most of the time as they gave me enough dexterity to work the weapon, but were by no means optimal as they were very bulky. When it was to cold for those I would use the Artic Mittens (with retraining straps)and a set of liner gloves. The weapon was carried in the mittens and then I would pull my hands out and shoot, manipulate with the liner gloes. The ones I used the most were out of my Lowe gloves and had a rubberized palm and fingers, will look around for them and do some pictures. Never used the ablity to open the trigger guard. If I couldn't get a finger in the trigger guard because of my gloves, seldom would the guard have made a differance.
I'm currently using a set of Marmot Glide Soft Shells (http://marmot.com/products/glide_softshell_glove_fall_2010?p=216,204) outdoors in the 20-30s with good results. They are light enough to still use as a liner under larger artic mittens, while providing preety gooed dexterity.
2. Batteries and optics. Use good lithium batteries and store spares inside your jacket. With the early Aimpoint COMp Ms we had problems with the battieris dieing in the cold, with the latter Comp M-2 and up optics we didn't have an issue. Some of the cheap AA's would die out in our PEQ's and PAQ's in the cold. When we did alot of training in the cold we found putting Rain-X on the M-68/ACOG lense's would keep them from fogging.
Transitional weather when you are operating total in the elements can be VERY hard to deal with and can bring you to a stand still. As an example we once wrapped up a defense and transitioned to an infilltration attack in Dec. When we moved into the Assembly Area the temps were in the 40s F and it was raining, at that point we loaded our rucks onto 5 tons. As the sun set we moved into our lanes and started the infiltration with A-Packs, then the snow began. Around 01:00 there was 2 feet of snow on the ground as we moved into the ORP, temp was around -20 F.
Soldiers were constantly falling in the snow as they waded through the knee deep snow, moving through the woods in the dark. We moved into the assualt positions around 04:00, at which point BN was starting to recieve the first cold weather injury reports. An entire squad had fallen through the ice on a lake, then continued mission, ect. I had ice forming on the insides of my Danner boots, and was wiggling every joint in my body in an attempt to keep warm. I'll never forget getting in the 5 ton after the attack and seeing the soldier across from me was wearing jungle boots and the guy next to him had the old "Leg" boots on. Our company FSO had severe "Chippawa foot" frost bite.
When we began the assualt most of the weapons in both the SBF and the Assualt element dind't work. Rounds were frozen in the mags, mag releases were packed with snow and had then frozen so that you could not change mags, ect. Had it been a real attack, vs. training we would have most likely have lost alot of soldiers. As it was around 31 soldiers in the BN had frost bite, several had hypotermia, and even more had other minor injuries.
Bottom line, is that operating in the cold requires you to think alot and should cause some changes to your TTP's.
We also did some changes in the oppisate direction. We once did an EDRE which rolled us out of the field on Drum where it was -50 F and in less than 24 hours found us in Florida at 80 F doing a RIP for the 82nd.
Here are some PPT lessons for cold weather duty, made by the Norwegian Winter Warfare School:
https://rapidshare.com/files/3659000237/Vintertjeneste.rar
DISCLAIMER: These PPT lessons are not to be taken as a substitute for proper training by knowledgeable instructors.
They can add some to the knowledge base of people with prior training in cold weather operations.
ETA:
The rar file contains PPT's on the following subjects:
Nutrition
Clothing
Hypothermia and cold injuries
Navigation in avalanche terrain
Navigation in winter
Carbonmonoxide poisoning using stoves
Leadership and control fuction during winter ops
Buddy rescue drills after avalanches
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