View Full Version : Magpul Dynamics Carbine I/II Course- Observations
I wanted to post some observations from the past weekends Magpul Dynamics Carbine I Course. This is not about the course itself, but rather the observations I made during the 1.5 days that I was there in relation to weapons issues/ failures.
This isn't going to be a bash fest, just pure observation from the issues I saw and the weapons that I fixed.
1. One of the shooters was using a LaRue SBR upper. I believe that it was a 12" with a PWS flash hider or something. Starting day two he was having feed issues when he would chamber a round with the bolt locked back. He would hit the bolt release and the rounds would hang up. It wouldn't happen everytime and it sometimes couldn't be replicated. I measured the action spring and it was right at 10". Replaced it with a new Colt spring and it still happened, although with less frequency.
I believe that one of the causes was the the lack of M4 feedramps as the rounds appeared to be hanging up where the upper and barrel extension met up. The short spring wasn't helping.
2. LWRC M6- The shooter had some issues on day two with the Magpul PMAG's he was using. This one baffled me because he had no issues and then all of a sudden it became very difficult to seat the magazines. It even had some issues with my PMAG's which have been 100% for me, thus far. The mags are going to be replaced.
3. Noveske 13.7 with pinned KX3. This gun was running fine for the most part, but some issues were popping up. One thing I noticed was the the receiver extension was screwed to far into the lower and was actually causing the buffer retainer to bind. Apparently the shooter had recently had someone install a sling plate on it. Obviously whomever did the work wasn't AR savy. In addition the Enidine buffer being used was a piece of shit and was causing issues. We dropped an H2 buffer in it from my stash and he had no more issues. His charging handle is also very close to failing (left handed shooter and it's getting stressed out) and fortunately it was caught and he'll be getting a BCM Mod 3 soon.
4. Young MFG bolt carrier- I don't recall the exact AR set up, but the shooter was using a Young MFG bolt carrier and experiencing failures to extract. I checked the extractor spring and it was pretty weak. In addition the extractor insert was missing, but there was a donut on it. I replaced the extractor spring with one from Specialized Armament (Ken's green one) and the gun ran like a champ the rest of the course from what I could see.
5. CMMG/BCM 20" upper build. This one was a little weird as well. The shooter knew he had an issue, so I stood by and observed him as he was shooting. There were intermittent failures to feed. In some cases it almost seemed as if it was short stroking. We pulled it down and I tore it down quickly checking the action spring and making sure that the buffer was correct. Next I went to the BCG and checked it. All was good. Wiped everything down, put some more lube on it and sent the shooter back out. He had been running Wolf the whole time (and it was pretty nasty) so we starting to think there was an ammo issue. One of the instructors had him load 30 rounds of brass case ammo and start the next course of fire. Weapon ran fine even after he switched back to the Wolf. Jury is still out on this one.
6. Doublestar ARbortion- This one was a real whopper. The barrel and lower were made by Doublestar. It had some type of odd ball screwed on gas block that used 4 screws at a 45 degree angle. None of the screws had Rocksett or Loctite applied to them nor was the barrel dimpled and the screws didn't have pointed tips. The barrel had some weird type of spacer on it and then they installed the flash hider. It wasn't timed properly and was probably offset by a whole turn. Someone installed a UTG rail and it wasn't done correctly. The entire barrel nut was exposed. They simply clamped the rail closed and tightened the screws. They also didn't have any threadlocker applied and were loosening. I am surprised that the thing made it to day 3. Towards the end of the course it was malfunction and when I pulled it down to check it the gas block started moving forward as all of the screws had loosened and one was MIA.
The castle nut was also loosening as was the receiver extension. Myself and another M4 member who spouse was attending the course managed to get the flash hider and everything else fixed. The shooter was advised to junk the upper and get a good one.
Lessons Learned-
For those that continue to insist that their less than AR is good to go, you need a reality check. A course like this with a high round count is going to reveal your flaws. Maybe it will be on day one, or on day three. But, it will happen.
Even a name brand will fail if you allow someone to dick with it that doesn't have experience or training.
Be wary of aftermarket crap. I can't say this enough. Don't just change stuff out because you read on the net that xxxx is the best thing in town. Use quality parts and use decent ammo. If you think that your AR will run with Wolf or Brown Bear, more power to you. Just be aware that in a course like this any down time will hurt the class as a whole and you will lose valuable training time.
Dos Cylindros
11-06-11, 16:11
Good post gunz. I recently put my BCM 16" middy back into service as my primary patrol rifle. I recently switched departments, and had to give up my Colt M4 to the agency I was leaving. My BCM sits on a Bushmaster lower, that I have completely gutted over the past few years and upgraded with lower parts from LMT, BCM, DD and the like. I was actually a bit nervous about how it would perform as I have always been a bit self conscious of the Bushy lower. Being that I am in CA, it is a registered assault weapon and not to easy to just switch out the lower.
That being said, the gun ran perfect over about 1500 rounds in 2.5 days of range training at my new department. I did not clean it until the last day, I just kept it lubed with Slip 2000 and it was good to go. I am a big beleiver in quality parts, even if they have to rest in a Bushy lower :D.
Good post. It reminds of reading Pat Rogers' posts on Lightfighter where he touches on equipment failure(s) on his own class AARs.
It's good to read what works and what doesn't. As always YMMV.
Good post, thank god it was a training class and IG was there to diagnose the problems. Imagine if it wasn't training and a real life or death situation. Spend money wisely on quality parts and service.
Excellent Post, once again affirming the use of quality products. Im taking a DOA Tactical course this coming sunday and im looking forward to see how my gun will function under the duress of a hard course.
Better to diagnose and fix on the one-way than the two-way range.
Interesting observations.
Was this the first time these rifles had been used in a class?
Can you tell us what was working?
bakercountyboy
11-06-11, 18:53
Awesome post!
I can't stress this enough. Know your weapon. I highly recommend that anyone who attends a training class bring some spare parts. I don't think anyone did bring any to this class. Also, bring some basic tools. Doesn't need to be much. Here's a brief recommendation;
Tools/Kit-
1. Multitool with bits (Multitasker) or screwdriver set.
2. Loctite
3. GI cleaning kit
4. Small punch kit
5. Shop rags or towels
Parts-
1. Spare bolt or a minimum of spare extractor assembly.
2. Firing pin
3. Firing pin retaining pin
bakercountyboy
11-06-11, 19:02
I can't stress this enough. Know your weapon. I highly recommend that anyone who attends a training class bring some spare parts. I don't think anyone did bring any to this class. Also, bring some basic tools. Doesn't need to be much. Here's a brief recommendation;
Tools/Kit-
1. Multitool with bits (Multitasker) or screwdriver set.
2. Loctite
3. GI cleaning kit
4. Small punch kit
5. Shop rags or towels
Parts-
1. Spare bolt or a minimum of spare extractor assembly.
2. Firing pin
3. Firing pin retaining pin
Spare parts is the main reason im giving my son my stag M8 and getting a DD m4v5 or MK18. Now i will not knock my M8 its been good to me and my buddy just did swat tryouts and a patrol carbine class with it last week, he put 1,000 trouble free rounds in it in 2days. But for me i want to be able to have a spare bolt and what not. But its a huge pain in the ass to get spare parts for a piston gun.
I can't tell you as I didn't ask about the history. There were alot of different versions of AR's, a couple of SCARS's and an FS2000. Most of the AR's seemed to be running fine. I'll see if I can get more details this time around.
Interesting observations.
Was this the first time these rifles had been used in a class?
Can you tell us what was working?
SeriousStudent
11-06-11, 19:44
I am guessing if no one brought spare parts, then nobody had spare weapons, either.
Did you have a chance to chat with the instructors about that? How often Chris, Steve or the others see a backup carbine or pistol brought to a class?
Thanks for the notes and observations, it's good stuff for training class preps.
Wow, thank god you were there to save the day! Is this your regular gig? You know it's funny I've seen a few of the carbine course trailers and Travis H. was running a Young bcg
I think I did see some spare weapons and guys with multiple weapons. Also, Steve and Chris had a few of their own and were more than willing to loan them out when needed. I though that was super awesome for them to offer that.
I'll ask this week when I am there for Part Deuce and will try and make some other notes as time permits.
I am guessing if no one brought spare parts, then nobody had spare weapons, either.
Did you have a chance to chat with the instructors about that? How often Chris, Steve or the others see a backup carbine or pistol brought to a class?
Thanks for the notes and observations, it's good stuff for training class preps.
Nope. I just happened to be home at the moment so I offered my assistance for those that wanted it.
Wow, thank god you were there to save the day! Is this your regular gig? You know it's funny I've seen a few of the carbine course trailers and Travis H. was running a Young bcg
Nice read and good observations. Thanks for taking the time.
Usually how it goes:
1. Students break their guns.
2. Steve breaks the students.
Clobbersauras
11-06-11, 20:17
This is a great thread. Thanks to the OP.
I have a course coming up in Dec and to my shame I'll be using an AR with a Bushy lower with a Model 1 Sales upper.:fie:
I bought the rifle before knew much about AR's and thought I'd just run the bitch to see what fails first. I've been through the rifle and with my limited knowledge everything appears OK. I did have to stake the castle nut, which wasn't done. The bolt carrier key is adequately staked and marked.
So far so good with my piece of trailer trash. I have about 3k rounds through it since last Feb with only one stoppage, a stovepipe that may have been due to over-gassing caused by a muzzle device I was testing that day. I don't know how many rounds were through it before I bought it, though judging by the condition It was probably less than 1K.
That being said, I am bringing a bunch of spare parts, tools and a spare rifle to the course.:D To be honest, I don't expect my franken rifle will fail, but I'm ready for any of the usual small parts failures that are common.
Whenever we get one of those 'But I could roll my own for less and save a few bucks...' posts, it should link directly to this thread. Can't help but notice that many of the troubled rifles were some variety of 'do-it-yourself' builds - and those that weren't may have been tinkered with by someone less than qualified to perform the work.
There's a lot to be learned by picking up a stripped lower and putting the parts together yourself, but that shouldn't be the first and/or only rifle in the safe. And certainly it shouldn't be the first in the bag to go to a professional training course - unless you really know what you're doing at that point and have the requisite experience to have that level of confidence in your builds.
Though I applaud those who are seeking quality training, if you're spending more on the tuition and ammunition required for three days of classes than you are on your rifle, you are actually shortchanging both your gear and your education. Your rifle will likely fail to perform, and you won't get the entire benefit of the training as you'll be sorting out malfunctions when you could be on the line, learning. It is a buyer's market right now, and there has never been a better time to purchase a quality carbine at a low price.
Spending a few extra dollars on quality ammunition at a training course may also avoid problems and frustration. Why compromise your learning by skimping a few bucks on ammo?
My two cents - thanks again for the informative post.
SeriousStudent
11-06-11, 20:55
Usually how it goes:
1. Students break their guns.
2. Steve breaks the students.
But what does Steve do with the other hand?
Continue to instruct, probably.
You DON'T want to know. Trust me.
Awesome thread, I just put a few hundred rounds through mine on Friday. You make me want to go through my rifle thoroughly :D
Great thread.
A lot of issues invariably boil down to bad choices by the user.
It'll be interesting to hear more about the issues that occur.
AZarmament
11-06-11, 22:50
Thanks for being there gunz.
I'll see you in the A.M ;)
Thanks for being there gunz.
I like the fact the IG says use quality parts. This is a no brainer but there are those who must go through this process painfully to understand.
Thanks for the info.
Just goes to show that anything can happen.
It also shows that "It'll be fine" isnt fine.
Someone told me the other day that Castlenut staking isnt a big deal, just throw some locktite on it".
Something that literally takes 30 seconds can shut down a class for alot longer than that.
Hawkeye M6A3
11-07-11, 00:59
I was the guy at the Magpul Carbine course with the LWRC M6 and had issues with PMAGs at the end of the 2nd day.
I was rotating seven PMAGs through the first two days and had fired close to 1,000 rounds. I experienced issues with five of the seven PMAGs. Iraq gave me one of his PMAGs, and it worked as advertised. I picked up four more PMAGs from AZArmament, and they all worked as advertised.
Other than that, I had zero gun or ammo related malfunctions with the M6A3 through 1,500 rounds of Brown Bear.
A few observations from me:
1. Run your AR wet!
2. FrogLube CLP is really good stuff.
3. The Magpul iPhone Field Case works awesome! I must have landed on my phone ten to fifteen times during the "urban prone" drill, and it still works great! :D
4. The old "AR-15's suck because they aren't reliable and jam up all the time" is a bunch of crap. On Day 2, we were dealing with wind gusts up to thirty mph and sand and dust and all kinds of crap were blowing all over the place (not to mention how many times we had to basically 'slam' our ARs in the hard sand when getting prone), and there weren't any malfunctions directly related to this environment.
Thanks for chiming in. Feel free to hit me up if you need something.
I was the guy at the Magpul Carbine course with the LWRC M6 and had issues with PMAGs at the end of the 2nd day.
I was rotating seven PMAGs through the first two days and had fired close to 1,000 rounds. I experienced issues with five of the seven PMAGs. Iraq gave me one of his PMAGs, and it worked as advertised. I picked up four more PMAGs from AZArmament, and they all worked as advertised.
Other than that, I had zero gun or ammo related malfunctions with the M6A3 through 1,500 rounds of Brown Bear.
A few observations from me:
1. Run your AR wet!
2. FrogLube CLP is really good stuff.
3. The Magpul iPhone Field Case works awesome! I must have landed on my phone ten to fifteen times during the "urban prone" drill, and it still works great! :D
4. The old "AR-15's suck because they aren't reliable and jam up all the time" is a bunch of crap. On Day 2, we were dealing with wind gusts up to thirty mph and sand and dust and all kinds of crap were blowing all over the place (not to mention how many times we had to basically 'slam' our ARs in the hard sand when getting prone), and there weren't any malfunctions directly related to this environment.
How many people attended IG?
Mr_Anderson556
11-07-11, 08:37
I have actually been putting off going to a Carbine Class till after I get a second carbine. I just picked up a second Glock so now I will be taking a Pistol class when one comes up in my area.
jonconsiglio
11-07-11, 09:24
I've found it's always best to bring a second rifle if you have the option. Most times we're not fortunate enough to have someone like IG there. So, if something fails, we're fixing it ourselves and missing a bit of the class or an instructor is helping and everyone is missing some of the class.
For those that bringing a second carbine isn't an option, buy quality replacement parts and learn to diagnose and fix issues that commonly arise. I continue to be surprised at the number of people attending a class that have no clue how to maintain their rifles. This goes for all levels. I had a buddy who bought a new SBR and it would fail to feed a new round numerous times per mag. The "gunsmith" at the local shop along with a couple others that should know better wanted to pull the gas block and drill out the gas port! Another suggested grinding on something.
This all was before even trying a different single different part... So, I replaced his Fail Zero BCG that seemed almost too large and was sticking a bit with my Colt BCG and it ran like a champ.
So, it's always best to learn to do these things yourself which it seems so many neglect. I guess since diagnosing and repair isn't as high speed and shoulder transitions, a large number of people don't feel it's worth the time to learn it well.
Interested to hear more from Carbine 2.
I am guessing if no one brought spare parts, then nobody had spare weapons, either.
I've found it's always best to bring a second rifle if you have the option. Most times we're not fortunate enough to have someone like IG there. So, if something fails, we're fixing it ourselves and missing a bit of the class or an instructor is helping and everyone is missing some of the class.
I always bring at least one spare gun, sometimes two. Murphy is alive and well. If I don't need them, someone else will. I also take my a travel box with armorer tools and common spares. The most common fixes have been reaming chambers, staking BCGs and receiver extension nuts, o-rings on extractors, and various spring swaps. More than I can count. There was a run of soft discos for awhile, too. Lots of good-as surrounding me.
When Mini-14s were prolific, shooters were strongly urged to have spare guns. If they didn't have a whole gun, a spare complete bolt. More often than not, they were needed.
I know folks who send people to class with one gun, three magazines, and the exact number of rounds in the course outline. Why gamble on everything going perfectly.
Hawkeye M6A3
11-07-11, 11:16
How many people attended IG?
There were 21 of us.
I've found it's always best to bring a second rifle if you have the option. Most times we're not fortunate enough to have someone like IG there. So, if something fails, we're fixing it ourselves and missing a bit of the class or an instructor is helping and everyone is missing some of the class.
For those that bringing a second carbine isn't an option, buy quality replacement parts and learn to diagnose and fix issues that commonly arise. I continue to be surprised at the number of people attending a class that have no clue how to maintain their rifles. This goes for all levels. I had a buddy who bought a new SBR and it would fail to feed a new round numerous times per mag. The "gunsmith" at the local shop along with a couple others that should know better wanted to pull the gas block and drill out the gas port! Another suggested grinding on something.
This all was before even trying a different single different part... So, I replaced his Fail Zero BCG that seemed almost too large and was sticking a bit with my Colt BCG and it ran like a champ.
So, it's always best to learn to do these things yourself which it seems so many neglect. I guess since diagnosing and repair isn't as high speed and shoulder transitions, a large number of people don't feel it's worth the time to learn it well.
Interested to hear more from Carbine 2.
All very good points!
P.S. This is AZ Hawk from over at DC, btw. :smile:
jonconsiglio
11-07-11, 11:24
There were 21 of us.
All very good points!
P.S. This is AZ Hawk from over at DC, btw. :smile:
What's up buddy? I hope you enjoyed the class!
SeriousStudent
11-07-11, 19:41
........
I know folks who send people to class with one gun, three magazines, and the exact number of rounds in the course outline. Why gamble on everything going perfectly.
Exactly. If things go perfectly, I'll never need a carbine. Or anything more potent than a stern look of parental concern.
But that's not the times we find ourselves in. So I am studying up on the proper use of my tools.
Excellent post and excellent advise.
BufordTJustice
11-08-11, 01:17
Exactly. If things go perfectly, I'll never need a carbine. Or anything more potent than a stern look of parental concern.
But that's not the times we find ourselves in. So I am studying up on the proper use of my tools.
As a Deputy Shuriff in Orlando, FL....I can tell you that your outlook is 100% spot-on.
I actually live about 500 meters due north of the site where they found Caylee Anthony's body....and in a nice neighborhood, I might add. Just had an armed robbery occur at the entrance to my neighborhood. It was obviously narcotics related (aren't they all :rolleyes: ). My neighborhood is over 20 years old and this is the first time in all those years for an armed robbery.
Don't live in fear...but be ready to visit mortal harm on a bad guy at a moment's notice. If you're ready, you don't need to be afraid. ;)
OUTSTANDING thread to read! Thank you.
I want to take an intro carbine class so bad. However, my work schedule never allows me to find the time . I work a month on/month off in Brazil. Therefore, I have only three open weekends every OTHER month. Plus I´m planning a wedding, so those weekends are filled before I ever even get home. My fiance works in Brazil as well, same schedule. If they only had weekday classes, I´d be set! Enough about that, poor me.
I have two AR´s and a substantial parts bin. Including a full BCG and two buffers. I was always under the impression to bring both guns and my spare parts. But I´m on the fence about which to call my primary gun for a class...
My first AR is a S&W M&P15.
BCM BCG (S&W BCG and charge handles are my spares)
VLTOR charge handle
ACOG TA-31H
Timney trigger
DD Omega 7 rail
and quite a bit of magpul furniture.
I´ve mostly done bench shooting with it for about three years now and one day was reaching out to 500 yards. Hitting paper every time with only the magazine ranger plate as my rest.
My second AR is one I built. Yáll can snarl at me as I built it myself. It´s a Daniel Defense SBR.
DD upper and lower
DD lite rail
Noveske 7.5´´ barrel with a KX3
DD BCG
DD charge handle
Alexander Arms trigger
EOtech XPS-3 and TROY folding BUIS
same with the magpul furniture
It´s a novelty gun, but it runs quite well through the measley 1k rounds I´ve put through it. And I did torque the barrel nut and all screws to DD specs and staked the castle nut.
Which would be better to run? A gun mostly assembled by S&W as far as the barrel nut. And BCM who manufatured and assembled the BCG.
Or the DD SBR that I assembled myself?
My first thoughts are to put the EOTECH on the S&W and go from there for a carbine class.
Suggestions?
Also, FWIW, I have been using frog lube for about four months now and am pleased with it.
OUTSTANDING thread to read! Thank you.
I want to take an intro carbine class so bad. However, my work schedule never allows me to find the time . I work a month on/month off in Brazil. Therefore, I have only three open weekends every OTHER month. Plus I´m planning a wedding, so those weekends are filled before I ever even get home. My fiance works in Brazil as well, same schedule. If they only had weekday classes, I´d be set! Enough about that, poor me.
I have two AR´s and a substantial parts bin. Including a full BCG and two buffers. I was always under the impression to bring both guns and my spare parts. But I´m on the fence about which to call my primary gun for a class...
My first AR is a S&W M&P15.
BCM BCG (S&W BCG and charge handles are my spares)
VLTOR charge handle
ACOG TA-31H
Timney trigger
DD Omega 7 rail
and quite a bit of magpul furniture.
I´ve mostly done bench shooting with it for about three years now and one day was reaching out to 500 yards. Hitting paper every time with only the magazine ranger plate as my rest.
My second AR is one I built. Yáll can snarl at me as I built it myself. It´s a Daniel Defense SBR.
DD upper and lower
DD lite rail
Noveske 7.5´´ barrel with a KX3
DD BCG
DD charge handle
Alexander Arms trigger
EOtech XPS-3 and TROY folding BUIS
same with the magpul furniture
It´s a novelty gun, but it runs quite well through the measley 1k rounds I´ve put through it. And I did torque the barrel nut and all screws to DD specs and staked the castle nut.
Which would be better to run? A gun mostly assembled by S&W as far as the barrel nut. And BCM who manufatured and assembled the BCG.
Or the DD SBR that I assembled myself?
My first thoughts are to put the EOTECH on the S&W and go from there for a carbine class.
Suggestions?
Also, FWIW, I have been using frog lube for about four months now and am pleased with it.
Do you feel the quality of your own build is questionable? If its not possible to devote training time with both then train with the one you feel you would most likely "deploy" should the need arise. Both are basically the same platform but it wouldn't be a bad idea to learn the ups and downs of both guns equally.
SuperiorDG
11-08-11, 09:39
OUTSTANDING thread to read! Thank you.
I want to take an intro carbine class so bad. However, my work schedule never allows me to find the time . I work a month on/month off in Brazil. Therefore, I have only three open weekends every OTHER month. Plus I´m planning a wedding, so those weekends are filled before I ever even get home. My fiance works in Brazil as well, same schedule. If they only had weekday classes, I´d be set! Enough about that, poor me.
I have two AR´s and a substantial parts bin. Including a full BCG and two buffers. I was always under the impression to bring both guns and my spare parts. But I´m on the fence about which to call my primary gun for a class...
My first AR is a S&W M&P15.
BCM BCG (S&W BCG and charge handles are my spares)
VLTOR charge handle
ACOG TA-31H
Timney trigger
DD Omega 7 rail
and quite a bit of magpul furniture.
I´ve mostly done bench shooting with it for about three years now and one day was reaching out to 500 yards. Hitting paper every time with only the magazine ranger plate as my rest.
My second AR is one I built. Yáll can snarl at me as I built it myself. It´s a Daniel Defense SBR.
DD upper and lower
DD lite rail
Noveske 7.5´´ barrel with a KX3
DD BCG
DD charge handle
Alexander Arms trigger
EOtech XPS-3 and TROY folding BUIS
same with the magpul furniture
It´s a novelty gun, but it runs quite well through the measley 1k rounds I´ve put through it. And I did torque the barrel nut and all screws to DD specs and staked the castle nut.
Which would be better to run? A gun mostly assembled by S&W as far as the barrel nut. And BCM who manufatured and assembled the BCG.
Or the DD SBR that I assembled myself?
My first thoughts are to put the EOTECH on the S&W and go from there for a carbine class.
Suggestions?
Also, FWIW, I have been using frog lube for about four months now and am pleased with it.
I ran my S&W M&P through the Magpul Carbine 1 & 2 without a problem. A self build with a 7.5 " barrel would worry me.
But what about the SCARS and the FS2000. Any issues with those rifles that you saw, IG?
I am curious as to the performance and reliability of those rifles in a course such as that one, etc.
But what about the SCARS and the FS2000. Any issues with those rifles that you saw, IG?
I am curious as to the performance and reliability of those rifles in a course such as that one, etc.
In our first Dynamic Carbine 2 down here in 2008 we had one gent try and run an FS2000. He gave up and switched to an 11.5 inch Colt about three quarters of the way through the first day.
The gun just failed to run, multiple double feeds, failures to feed etc.
Do you feel the quality of your own build is questionable? If its not possible to devote training time with both then train with the one you feel you would most likely "deploy" should the need arise. Both are basically the same platform but it wouldn't be a bad idea to learn the ups and downs of both guns equally.
Exactly what I was pondering today.
Do I question my own build....? Yes and No. Like I said, it has run fine for me thus far, but been it´s been ran softly compared to a class. I DO feel confident in it, but FEAR a problem arising and then feeling like the class knucklehead if it were sometyhing obviously built wrong. But still, as I did all my ins and outs checks, it´s only a matter of time to see what wears first..should anything.
Thank you sir.
I ran my S&W M&P through the Magpul Carbine 1 & 2 without a problem. A self build with a 7.5 " barrel would worry me.
Excellent to know! I also thought of using the BUIS on my S&W whilst pondering today.
decisions decisions. isn´t that what this hobby/lifestyle is all about?
Thank you sir.
In our first Dynamic Carbine 2 down here in 2008 we had one gent try and run an FS2000. He gave up and switched to an 11.5 inch Colt about three quarters of the way through the first day.
The gun just failed to run, multiple double feeds, failures to feed etc.
I bet that was tons of fun to try and clear jams with that little toilet-seat opening.
I don't post much as what I have to say is usually already said.
Here's how I look at it.
A gun is a machine.
You just spent money on (YMMV) tuition, ammo, fuel, gear, lodging and food to take a class.
If the gun won't run, you're not gonna get your money's worth from the class.
Not to mention possibly hold the line up, look like a turd, etc.
Why folks don't PM their guns prior to class, and take spare guns, parts, and tools is beyond me.
I had a squib round in a pistol class once. (WWB 115gr FMJ)
I was 2nd in line, and we were individually shooting on the clock.
I squibbed, fiddle ****ed with the gun to find out what happened, an instr (cert. armorer) took my gun for repairs, I sprinted to my car and got my back up gun which was an identical twin of the squibbed gun.
There were 6 shooters in my line, and I didn't miss my turn when it came back around.
I want my money's worth.
:D
I recently did a TriCon course. My Noveske Light Recce performed well (except for that time when the rear Troy fell off :o ). I had a backup rifle plus spare buffers, springs, and BCG parts but didn't need it, just a little LocTite and a screwdriver :o. At Jeff's suggestion, I didn't clean the rifle during the three days, just oiled it up a couple of times a day with Slip EWL. It was pretty dirty by the end of the course, but no performance issues (PMC Bronze ammo).
There was a wide variety of rifles there, but no major issues with any of them, even from my buddy's DPMS.
Which would be better to run? A gun mostly assembled by S&W as far as the barrel nut. And BCM who manufatured and assembled the BCG.
Or the DD SBR that I assembled myself?
My first thoughts are to put the EOTECH on the S&W and go from there for a carbine class.
Suggestions?
Also, FWIW, I have been using frog lube for about four months now and am pleased with it.
I would begin the class with the MP15, but if time permitted (two or three day class), I would try to run the SBR for part of a day to get a feel for it. If it started taking a dump, then ditch it and go back to the MP15.
I want to take an intro carbine class so bad...
Which would be better to run? A gun mostly assembled by S&W as far as the barrel nut. And BCM who manufatured and assembled the BCG.
Or the DD SBR that I assembled myself?
My two cents is to use the M&P 15.
Let's put aside questions about the reliability of your build for a moment and assume both of your rifles are equally reliable. Just to be clear, I don't believe that for a moment, as the compromises inherent in a 7.5" VSBR and the pistol length gas system are going to stack the deck against the 7.5" build from the outset, regardless of whether you built it or John Noveske assembled it by hand in his workshop. But let's continue with the assumption that both rifles are equally reliable and go from there.
I still would pick the 16" rifle for an introductory class. For basic level instruction, I'd want to learn on the more commonly encountered AR variant. And 16" ARs are everywhere. Most likely, your instructor will be demonstrating drills on a 16" carbine. From a learning standpoint, I'd stick with the more common platform - you'll pick up more from watching the instructor handle his weapon and seeing how his weapon is configured.
You also describe your 7.5" as a 'novelty gun', so you are clearly aware that the VSBR has a mixed reputation among professional users. At best it is a tool useful in very narrowly defined parameters and at worst it is a recreational firearm with little real world application. For an introductory course, I'd again recommend 'sticking with the herd' and choosing the more commonly encountered 16" rifle. Some instructors will not be shy about sharing their opinion of the VSBR before you even fire a shot. Personally, that's not how I'd want to start my first course.
Last, even with the KX3 I bet your 7.5" will have more concussion, flash and noise than just about any other rifle on the line. Perhaps not the best way to make friends with your classmates. Again, not how I'd want to start my first course.
I think your instinct to take the S&W first is the right one. Keep the VSBR in the car as a backup in case you need it. Again, my two cents. I'm sure the VSBR is fun to shoot, it just wouldn't be my first choice for professional instruction. I think learning will be enhanced with the 16" rifle.
Good luck with your training.
Hawkeye M6A3
11-08-11, 22:10
But what about the SCARS and the FS2000. Any issues with those rifles that you saw, IG?
I am curious as to the performance and reliability of those rifles in a course such as that one, etc.
The guy with the 16" SCAR-L said specifically to someone who asked, "Do not buy a SCAR." I didn't hear his reasoning, however.
The FS2000 performed perfectly fine.
I think your instinct to take the S&W first is the right one. Keep the VSBR in the car as a backup in case you need it. Again, my two cents. I'm sure the VSBR is fun to shoot, it just wouldn't be my first choice for professional instruction. I think learning will be enhanced with the 16" rifle.
You make a very good point. For a beginning level class the 16" will be way more appropriate.
Perhaps after learning different drills and how to run the gun, he could run the VSBR hard on his own to verify proper function.
Facejackets
11-09-11, 00:05
Thanks for posting IG.
You made up my mind for me. I was inbetween buying a DDM4V5 or building an upper to put on my Noveske lower.
I'll be buying that V5 now...
eternal24k
11-09-11, 07:13
thanks for the post,
I actually always look forward to seeing what gear failed during classes, it's a way to vicariously learn from other peoples mistakes.
Although I did not attend this course (C1) as a shooter I was there, and as a casual observer was able to make these observations.
The host, AZ Armament went above and beyond. In AZ, one thing you can count on is the weather changing. for that eventuality Richard from AZ Armament brought in a giant professional grade canopy, a real piece of engineering the size of my garage for the students to use along with tables and chairs. On T1, Richard catered lunch for the students and instructors; again, a first class showing from the host.
Many of the students that I talked to traveled to the class. My impromptu survey but the percentage of travelers above the percentage of home based shooters but then I was being anything but scientific. Most of the shooters I observed were well prepared. Many had multiple rifles, basic tools, and a wide assortment of gear to cover every eventuality.
Some were at their first course. In IG's above post I served as IG's human vise while he wrenched that student's weapon back together. These courses are made for learning and that particular student, a young first-timer, probably came away from this course learning more than most. It is nice to see an idea sponge at a class, they counter the been there done that (yet my gun won't run) crowd quite well. (BTW, IG, we went to the Tucson gun show on Sunday and saw that exact version of that DoubleStar rifle, complete with the UTG hand guards and gas block for sale. I can't tell you what it cost, I didn't want to touch it.).
I noticed the usual amount of teamwork I have grown accustomed to at these kinds of classes, with shooters sharing tools, gear, shade, water, magazines, ammo, whatever with each other to make sure that that everyone was prepped and ready for the next training event
One observation that I made was that FN SCARs will not run Lancer mags well, at least the Gen 1 Lancers, which surprised me quite a bit.
In retrospect, I wish that I had attended this course and the C2 that followed a couple of days later (I know they were loving that canopy in the 45 degree temperature early AM downpour on their T1!).
I will definitely keep my eye out for AZ Armament's next class announcement. I know for me it will surely be worth the drive.
CarlosDJackal
11-09-11, 10:18
The last 2 classes I attended I had no less than a total of 4 rifles plus my tool box and spare parts. I learned my lesson a long time ago that as Clint Smith said, "One is none and two is one".
If you pay all that money and travel a good distance, why would you risk not being able to training just because all you brought with you was a single sub-standard rifle? This is like an F1 Race Team bringing a single car to the F1 circuit. JM2CW.
Very interesting thread.
I'm planning on taking a Magpul Carbine course in the near future. I'm a California LEO and I'm only allowed to own one AR-15 with all the evil features. I own a Colt 6940, which has been incredibly reliable through the training I've had, but I think the Magpul class will push it to the next level. Since I can't bring a backup rifle, since I only own one, what are the recommended backup parts and tools I should bring if I need to replace them mid-class? I don't want to waste all the money to attend the class and not be prepared.
It would also be nice to have these parts in a little kit that I can keep in my patrol bag in the event (hopefully never) that there is a huge North Hollywood shootout and my gun breaks. Thanks!
Read the earlier posts from IraqGunz. He has a list in this thread of what you should bring.
Very interesting thread.
I'm planning on taking a Magpul Carbine course in the near future. I'm a California LEO and I'm only allowed to own one AR-15 with all the evil features. I own a Colt 6940, which has been incredibly reliable through the training I've had, but I think the Magpul class will push it to the next level. Since I can't bring a backup rifle, since I only own one, what are the recommended backup parts and tools I should bring if I need to replace them mid-class? I don't want to waste all the money to attend the class and not be prepared.
It would also be nice to have these parts in a little kit that I can keep in my patrol bag in the event (hopefully never) that there is a huge North Hollywood shootout and my gun breaks. Thanks!
F2S started an excellent thread here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=69644) on attending a training course for the first time.
I'll note that #12 on his list - bring a friend - is a good idea if you have a like minded (and similarly equipped) shooting partner. You can also pool some resources in terms of spare parts, expendables and gear - which is helpful when starting out.
Very interesting thread.
I'm planning on taking a Magpul Carbine course in the near future. I'm a California LEO and I'm only allowed to own one AR-15 with all the evil features. I own a Colt 6940, which has been incredibly reliable through the training I've had, but I think the Magpul class will push it to the next level. Since I can't bring a backup rifle, since I only own one, what are the recommended backup parts and tools I should bring if I need to replace them mid-class? I don't want to waste all the money to attend the class and not be prepared.
I attended a Magpul Dynamics class with a Colt 6940 and had no issues other than one bad magazine.
You might want to bring along a spare extractor and related parts, or buy them as a complete kit from Bravo Company: http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-SOPMOD-Bolt-Upgrade-Rebuild-Kit-p/bcm%20bolt%20upgrade%20kit.htm.
If you can swing it, it is great to have a spare bolt and bolt carrier--again from a proven company like BCM, just to be safe. It is also useful to have extra small parts that are easy to loose--like a firing pin retaining pin. Might as well throw in a spare firing pin while you are at it.
I'm getting a bit concerned with the talk of bringing multiple guns to a class. Not that it is a bad thing in itself, but that it might discourage people who don't have multiple guns from getting training. Pretty soon we will be seeing threads titled, 'how many ARs should I own before it is safe to go to a training class?' And people won't feel comfortable going to a training class until they have at least 2 ARs to bring.
I understand the utility and desirability of bringing multiple guns to a training class, but lets not overdo it to the point where people are afraid to go to a class until they have multiple ARs.
As long as you buy a decent AR from a quality maker (Colt, Bravo Company, etc) in a configuration that has proven to be reliable, you should be good to go with just a small parts kit with an extra extractor, extractor spring, etc. A spare complete bolt & Bolt carrier is ideal.
The biggest problems that I have seen were with questionable brands or ARs and with people who cobbled together their guns or had someone else cobble together, and with certain pistons (some POFs, some LWRCs). Other issues I have noticed is people who have not properly lubricated their gun or people who bring crappy ammo.
I've been to around a dozen carbine classes in the last 5 years with Pat Rogers, Paul Howe, Magpul Dynamics, Spartan Tactical, Trident Concepts, Vickers Tactical & Redback One. I've run an AUG, an FS2000, and various iterations of ARs including an older Colt preban 16" barrel, a Colt 6940, Colt lower with HK416 Upper, Noveske N4 Basic Upper, & a BCM Midlength upper. I always bring spare parts--including a a spare bolt & bolt carrier if possible. The most I have had to do is swap out a spring, O-ring, and extractor insert on a Noveske N4 basic upper after the gun had some bizarre malfunctions.
To bring it back around to a question by a previous poster, if I brought a 7" AR to the class, I would definitley want to bring another complete upper--and something in a proven configuration with a more standard length barrel. Paul Buffoni of Bravo Company reports that 11.5" and longer tend to function best in an AR.
Another thing to keep in mind when travelling to a training class with multiple guns--there may be times when they will be left unattended locked in your car or hotel room. So you may want to consider limiting potential losses from break-ins and not risk too many guns at once.
Sorry for the divergence in this excellent thread.
Clobbersauras
11-09-11, 18:33
Those Magpul grip cores actually are good for something. I was worried about it not being robust so I put it in the gun and bashed the shit out of the grip with a rubber mallet to see if I could get it to shake lose. No luck. I also ran the base up and down my gear trying to catch the latch. No luck. It's a good piece of kit. I pre-oiled all the parts before installing the grip. This travels with my fraken gun at all times. I need to find a rubber washer to replace the elastic band though.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/IMG_1879.jpg
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r151/clobbersauras/IMG_1876.jpg
SeriousStudent
11-09-11, 18:53
Ed L - I definitely agree with your points, and your concern about delaying training. I debated that in my mind before posting the question about spare weapons.
We sometimes post contradictory advice here. "Great carbine, now go get some ammo and shoot the piss out of it." Contrast that with "Go therefore, and getteth thyself training, lest thou fail like a miserable dumbass."
I think RogerInTPA had a excellent suggestion for preparedness. (He's a pilot - go figure) He just carries a complete BCG, already lubed, in a ziplock bag to class. Remove the offending part, replace with known good. And as you say, a BCM FA BCG is a tremendous place to start.
And a spare Glock 19 is a hell of a lot cheaper than a spare Colt 6920, fully decked out with optic, light, sling, sprouting every tactical doodad known to mankind.
Thanks for your many posts and articles on training. I have read and appreciated them.
Great info...thanks for sharing.
One observation that I made was that FN SCARs will not run Lancer mags well, at least the Gen 1 Lancers, which surprised me quite a bit.
To those of us that run SCAR's, it's not surprising at all. That said, the L5AWM's run great (current generation).
In regards to guns going down: Yes indeed it happens, no doubt. We are fortunate enough to have a armorer present at our larger classes to address and correct issues with minimal downtime (and therefore diminished interruption with training).
Like many mentioned, a second carbine is often advised. Outside of the very unusual case of a student with both a quality carbine (a Colt 6920, in this case) and a quality secondary (some LWRCi --which model I cannot recall) failing, it usually serves well. Most courses will have, 'loaner' guns for the students to use if something goes wrong with either.
As an instructor, I keep a, 'trouble-shooting' box handy. What's in such a box (or in my case, a hefty tool box)? Tons of stuff, to include:
-Multiple buffers (at different weights)
-Lube (giant bottles of both Militec-1 and WeaponShield. We also offer to fill up student's empty bottles with them)
-Action springs (and small springs of all types)
-Bolts
-BCG's
-Extractors and springs
-Common optic batteries
-Charging handles
-Loctite (Blue)
-Set of torx/allen wrenches
-Armorer's tool
-Automatic center punch (I've been known to go around staking shit during lunch time: fair warning)
-Assorted small parts (firing pins, gas rings, cotter pins etc)
-Assorted small punches
-Cleaning rods
-Broken shell extractors
-Bore brushes
and other MISC shit. Regardless, that tool box is worth it's weight in gold. Especially when getting a gun running quickly with minimal downtime in training.
Here's a follow up to the part I. I didn't want to start a whole new thread. This class had about 18 shooters in it. We were moving like Operation Fast and Furious on the range. Most of the weapons I saw were quality and there were actually very few issues. One cat was a running a SCAR SBR and it ran like a scalded cat as far as I could tell.
1. Surefire 60 round magazine- mine ran 100% during the course. I put something like 400 rounds through it and experienced ZERO issues when firing suppressed or unsuppressed. Chris and Steve were also using theirs and they also had nothing bad to say. I may have to get one or two more for SHTF or shits and giggles.
2. One of shooters who was active MIL brought out a CMMG 14.5" build and an 11.5" Bushmaster spare upper. Neither would run good and he probably ran 70% of the course with a loaner. He was having blown primers with M193 and when I checked the chamber with Ned C's chamber checker both were tight. I even did an extractor spring upgrade and we dropped in a new DD BCG with no luck.
3. STAKE YOUR ENDPLATES/CASTLE NUTS- I cannot emphasize this enough. Especially those who have installed Magpul ASAP's. As you are aware it is very difficult to tighten the castle nut due to that bar at the bottom. One of our shooters who was running a department issued suppressed SBR had an ASAP installed and his castle nut worked loose on day 3. His tube ended up turning about 30 degrees to the right. There is a lot of shooting and moving going on. We were able to get it straight and tight and then Is staked it.
4. Colt 9mm lower (modified) with a Stag Arms SBR upper. This one was weird. The gun stopped running and I was unable to see what was happening simply because I was also shooting as well. Gun went down about halfway through day 2. I checked all the common issues and was unable to find anything. Shooter reported that the firing pin was sticking in the bolt. We did a basic cleaning and then I brough out the gages. When I did the firing pin protrusion test the bolt and firing pin both failed. I found this rather odd since the upper was supposed to have had a low round count.
Replaced the bolt and firing pin with known good stuff and the gun ran without issues and finished the course.
5. BCM 11.5" SBR w/ AAC M4-2000 suppressor.- I ran my SBR for the entire course with a variety of magazines- PMAG's (all colors), USGI mags and Surefire 60 round. All magazines functioned 100%. I had no issues with failures to lock back, double feeds or anything else. I used FrogLube the entire course and it excelled in my opinion. I cleaned my weapon once on day 2 and that consisted of wiping down the BCG, inspecting the bolt, and reassembly. I lubed again with FrogLube and that was it. I fired Federal XM193, Federal AE 223, PMC Bronze and some mixtures of ball I had loaded in magazines. Zero malfunctions or problems at all.
One thing for those running magnified optics like the 4x32 ACOG's. they are very difficult to use at the closer ranges. Also when doing stuff like off hand shoulder in the urban prone. The guys running red dots certainly had an advantage and I think the Aimpoint T1's dominated the count out there.
I would like to thank Chris and Steve both for allowing me to attend. It was very short notice as I had literally stepped off the plane the day of the first class (Carbine I). Also Rich at AZArmament as well. He was very accomodating and was willing to help the guys as much as possible. Without him the course wouldn't have happened.
Also I want to make another mention. We had a handful of guys that were either USBP, Federal LEO or local LE. All of these guys paid out of their pockets and truly represent to minority of guys who are willing to learn and acquire better skills to help them win in a gunfight. These guys are truly professionals and they deserve some praise for doing a tough job.
I'm exhausted just reading about it. :eek:
One thing for those running magnified optics like the 4x32 ACOG's. they are very difficult to use at the closer ranges. Also when doing stuff like off hand shoulder in the urban prone. The guys running red dots certainly had an advantage and I think the Aimpoint T1's dominated the count out there.
Running occluded can be hard indeed. A flip-up cover helps when doing it but, especially with ACOG's like the TA31, eye relief becomes an issue. Piggy-backing a MRDS, while sucky compared to an offset in most aspects, does work well from support side.
Also, not to mention that the offset when running occluded depends on the physical shape of one's eye so some people can be waaaay off. I think you might be surprised at the small difference in speed when running drills on the clock between an ACOG and a RDS, provided the shooter is experienced with running occluded.
Regardless, still love ACOGs. It's a 'Jack of all trades, master of none' optic.
What do you mean by "occluded"?
What do you mean by "occluded"?
He's going JSantoro on our asses!
What do you mean by "occluded"?
Shooting with both eyes open so the chevron/triangle/whatever is superimposed over your other eye. Also called the BAC, (Bindon Aiming Concept). Much easier to do if you have a flip-cover on the front of the ACOG because there's no 'magnified downrange' to ignore, just the chevron/triangle/whatever.
Noteworthy that early RDS's used the same concept (most notably the Armson OEG)
http://www.trijicon-inc.com/aiming.html
Running occluded can be hard indeed. A flip-up cover helps when doing it but, especially with ACOG's like the TA31, eye relief becomes an issue. Piggy-backing a MRDS, while sucky compared to an offset in most aspects, does work well from support side.
Also, not to mention that the offset when running occluded depends on the physical shape of one's eye so some people can be waaaay off. I think you might be surprised at the small difference in speed when running drills on the clock between an ACOG and a RDS, provided the shooter is experienced with running occluded.
In case anyone is wondering about the mechanics/physiology to this:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34549
The ACOG may cause this phenomenon, even when the lens cap isn't on, because one eye will be seeing through the optic which is magnified 3-4x and the other is seeing objects in normal size which will cause the two eyes to receive significantly different input signals. This in turn may cause the eyes to dissociate if they are prone to do so. The T1/H1, Eotechs, and other MRDS are less likely to cause this because the only difference between the signal going into either eye is the housing of the optic and the dot itself.
Thanks for clearing that up!
At first I though it had something to do with batteries, like "Batteries Not Occluded":lol:
jonconsiglio
11-10-11, 21:36
Shooting with both eyes open so the chevron/triangle/whatever is superimposed over your other eye. Also called the BAC, (Bindon Aiming Concept). Much easier to do if you have a flip-cover on the front of the ACOG because there's no 'magnified downrange' to ignore, just the chevron/triangle/whatever.
Noteworthy that early RDS's used the same concept (most notably the Armson OEG)
http://www.trijicon-inc.com/aiming.html
This took a while for me, then one day it just clicked and I got it. I don't do it often for close range work but it's nice to know I can and it's very effective once you've worked at it...
This took a while for me, then one day it just clicked and I got it. I don't do it often for close range work but it's nice to know I can and it's very effective once you've worked at it...
That's a very common thing to happen. Once it, 'clicks' it's good-to-go
I've seen many instructors give the concept lassitude due to the amalgamate problems of phoria but I don't for two reasons:
-So long as you know the displacement, especially at close range, it doesn't matter.
-Sometimes (and often!) you are issued what you are issued and therefore have to do best with the card you're dealt. Marines I trained were given TA31's and that was that (and soldiers shitty-ass TA01NSN's).
That's a very common thing to happen. Once it, 'clicks' it's good-to-go
I've seen many instructors give the concept lassitude due to the amalgamate problems of phoria but I don't for two reasons:
-So long as you know the displacement, especially at close range, it doesn't matter.
-Sometimes (and often!) you are issued what you are issued and therefore have to do best with the card you're dealt. Marines I trained were given TA31's and that was that (and soldiers shitty-ass TA01NSN's).
What would go wrong with the TA01NSNs?
My two cents is to use the M&P 15.
Let's put aside questions about the reliability of your build for a moment and assume both of your rifles are equally reliable. Just to be clear, I don't believe that for a moment, as the compromises inherent in a 7.5" VSBR and the pistol length gas system are going to stack the deck against the 7.5" build from the outset, regardless of whether you built it or John Noveske assembled it by hand in his workshop. But let's continue with the assumption that both rifles are equally reliable and go from there.
I still would pick the 16" rifle for an introductory class. For basic level instruction, I'd want to learn on the more commonly encountered AR variant. And 16" ARs are everywhere. Most likely, your instructor will be demonstrating drills on a 16" carbine. From a learning standpoint, I'd stick with the more common platform - you'll pick up more from watching the instructor handle his weapon and seeing how his weapon is configured.
You also describe your 7.5" as a 'novelty gun', so you are clearly aware that the VSBR has a mixed reputation among professional users. At best it is a tool useful in very narrowly defined parameters and at worst it is a recreational firearm with little real world application. For an introductory course, I'd again recommend 'sticking with the herd' and choosing the more commonly encountered 16" rifle. Some instructors will not be shy about sharing their opinion of the VSBR before you even fire a shot. Personally, that's not how I'd want to start my first course.
Last, even with the KX3 I bet your 7.5" will have more concussion, flash and noise than just about any other rifle on the line. Perhaps not the best way to make friends with your classmates. Again, not how I'd want to start my first course.
I think your instinct to take the S&W first is the right one. Keep the VSBR in the car as a backup in case you need it. Again, my two cents. I'm sure the VSBR is fun to shoot, it just wouldn't be my first choice for professional instruction. I think learning will be enhanced with the 16" rifle.
Good luck with your training.
I have fired a 7.5" VSBR (pistol, technically), for about 30 rounds, and my ears rang for a day afterward even wearing ear-pro. I think people will hate you if you use that. If THEY don't, your own ears will. Just my .02
I have enjoyed reading about the guns and equipment used at these classes. Good or bad it definitely helps a person to really consider using quality stuff.
More people need to chime in with their observations on their carbine courses.
I would love to take one in the future but don't know of any in my immediate area but will keep looking.
Thanks again for this thread!
hotrodder636
11-11-11, 07:24
Thanks for the great thread IG! Unfortunately it just makes me want to find a class that I will be able to attend (due to my work schedule) even more than I already did!
Slvr Surfr
11-11-11, 20:20
I attended a week long police patrol rifle instructor course during July in North Texas. Being that I paid to go on my own, I brought my home built patrol rifle with me. My rifle consisted of Les Baer upper and lower, bcm ss410 16" midlength barrel, with young manufactured bcg, bcm mod 4 ch, timney trigger, bcm h buffer and vltor stock. I used some trusty Pmags and the new to me troy mags during the course. I used DD irons with an Aimpoint Comp m2 in gg&g mount. Before anyone asks why I used a LB upper and lower, it is because I had the rifle before my M4C membership ;). I've since made the best of it.
In 4 days we ran 800 rounds through our guns in the most miserable conditions Texas can possibly offer. 100*+ days with a range backstop of red sand. I ran my gun wet with a combo of twb25 and clp. I shot all xm193 during the entire course. After each day I did a basic wipe down and inspection of my rifle to ensure that it would run reliably.
I had ZERO malfunctions or issues during the week. I have been to one other week long basic carbine course besides my normal training and I can say that this instructor course is the hardest that I have ever run a carbine. I did bring a spare bcm rifle and parts in the event that I needed it.
Unfortunately others in the course were not as prepared or fortunate. We had at least two officers in the course that had their issued bushys fail. One of them had their CH break near the front where the carrier key fits. The other had gas leakage issues that resulted in short strokes. Luckily we had a competent armored such as IG that brought plenty of parts to keep the training running. Without that armorer those officers would have been SOL.
One officer had been given a case of bitter root valley (BVA) ammunition to use for the course. He would have been better off throwing the ammo by hand. He had multiple fail to fire and extract issues using that ammo. The same officer also used some pretty shitty Canadian magazines that simply could not stand the rigors of range training. I observed him lose one mag during a reload. When the mag hit the deck the base plate came off releasing all 28 rounds. Our instructors supplied him with some quality ammo and pmags to finish the course with. A majority of the class had issued BM rifles. One officer did bring his personal Spikes 16" rifle. I believe his rifles functioned without issue. Total of 13 students participated.
All in all I felt very happy with my home build. It proved to be extremely reliable and earned my trust enough to carry it on duty with me. I did build it with the supervision and help of another department armorer. I purposely sought high quality parts to help minimize the potential failures. While I did not need to clean my rifle after every day, the piece of mind was worth it. I felt better knowing that if I did have any malfunctions it would not have been due to a dirty rifle. I firmly believe that a highly reliable weapon can be built as long as you use quality parts and are knowledgeable in the building process.
Since the course I have switched the bcg to DD. The rifle now sports the vltor a5 RE. In my humble opinion, If you are going to have equipment failures, there is no better place to have them than in training.
edited, Didn't read post clearly.
Well I see the high dollar AR's break just like the low budget AR's! :D
Just proves the simple fact-things break! Use and AR hard it breaks, things wear out!:rolleyes:
In 4 days we ran 800 rounds through our guns in the most miserable conditions Texas can possibly offer. 100*+ days with a range backstop of red sand.
Do you mean a total of 800 rounds over the course of 4 days?
Not meaning to pick an issue with you, but that isn't a high round count class.
With the Magpul Dynamics Carbine class that I took, we fired close to 800 rounds each day.
800 rounds is a good afternoon session. :D
Slvr Surfr
11-11-11, 21:03
Gents,
It was an instructor course, so shooting was one aspect of the school. Teaching/instructing was the larger part. We brought more ammo but never got around to shooting it all.
2. One of shooters who was active MIL brought out a CMMG 14.5" build and an 11.5" Bushmaster spare upper. Neither would run good and he probably ran 70% of the course with a loaner. He was having blown primers with M193 and when I checked the chamber with Ned C's chamber checker both were tight. I even did an extractor spring upgrade and we dropped in a new DD BCG with no luck.
I am now glad that I had adco ream my chamber and changed my BCG to a DD.
Which high dollar AR's are you referring to?
Well I see the high dollar AR's break just like the low budget AR's! :D
Just proves the simple fact-things break! Use and AR hard it breaks, things wear out!:rolleyes:
Well I see the high dollar AR's break just like the low budget AR's! :D
Just proves the simple fact-things break! Use and AR hard it breaks, things wear out!:rolleyes:
Sounds like justification for owing a cheap AR.
I would say that any AR modified by a novice AR mechanic will have a higher probability of having issues no matter if it's a Colt or Olympic; that doesn't justify owning an Olympic because you saved $400.
What would go wrong with the TA01NSNs?
Since they aren't fiber-optic illuminated, they don't draw the eye as well and such than something like a triangle/chevron/horseshoe/whatever else illuminated by fiber optics.
These kind of AARs are terrific sources of information. I remember back in 2007 when I was purchasing my first AR that I spent a day reading through all of the EAG Tactical AARs posted on M4C (here's (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6257) a good example of one of the write ups from that period). In that time period, there was neither the explosion in quality brands (BCM, DD, Noveske, etc) nor training courses that we are experiencing today. But these kind of AARs were (and are) fantastic first hand sources of information from SMEs about what was working and what wasn't. It didn't take long to see trends.
For new shooters looking for their first training class, reading a few of the AARs for the course you are planning to attend is a good start. Make sure your magazines are serviceable, purchase decent ammunition, and lubricate your rifle generously.
Thanks again to Gunz for starting such a useful thread.
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