View Full Version : My idiot friend wants a .300 Win Mag
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 04:35
He has never shot a precision rifle before, the only type of rifle shooting he has done is bump firing a cheap AK and shooting an M1A (horribly) from the bench at 100 yards.
He's trying to buy a Kimber or a Tikka souped up tactical rifle (and put a $250 scope on it).
How the hell do I convince him to start somewhere else? I've tried telling him that a .300 Win Mag is waaayyy overkill for his abilities and it will probably induce flinching at the recoil.
I have a Rem700P with a 20" barrel in .308 that he never shoots. I offer and he says "Nah, too weak. Its only a .308" but I ding steel at 800 all day. It took me almost 4 years of shooting to get to this level. What exactly he is looking to do beyond that, with no formal training or past experience, I don't know.
The one time he has shot my Remington 700 at 300 yards he couldn't get any of his shots in an 8" circle...from the bench...with sandbags, with the scope on 24x....and a Timney trigger.
What do I tell him? I can understand getting a rifle. I can understand wanting 300 Win Mag.
I cannot understand wanting a "designer brand" for your first rifle. The $500 he'd save getting a 700 or a Savage could be put to a better scope.
IMO Savage and Remington are nothing to shake a stick at. Build them up and trick them out even more if skill really increases. But you're right, start with good optics.
Tell him they are "designer" brands. Build their reputation in his mind.
Tell him to read here. Does he read any precision shooter stuff?
Although they are not Bentley's and Ferrari's of precision shooting, they are Mercedes and BMW's; compared to Ford Pinto's. (not to offend any Pinto owners out there)
If he is unable to take sound advise then I say this "A fool and his money is soon departed. Thankfully, I am not that fool." What else can you do besides tell his wife. lol
Let him know that a .308 is still a really great round give stats on it and let him know that there are good rifles out there that you can make into a decent tack driver using the .308
That's my wooden nickels worth
mkmckinley
11-08-11, 05:15
".308 is a perfect round to learn on and build the skills you need to become a good long range shooter. You can take it out to 1000m as you build your abilities and it will force you to learn how to read wind and call it which is really the make or break part of long range shooting. You also get excellent barrel life and relatively cheap match ammo. A .300 win mag will start to lose accuracy in as little as 1000 rounds and can create/reinforce bad habits. It's also expensive to shoot expecially when you factor in barrel costs. A bad shooter with a .300 WM is still a bad shooter"
Show him Lowlight's youtube videos shooting 18" barreled .308s out to 1000m.
In the end you probably won't change his mind if he doesn't want to change it. Let him keep being an idiot, maybe he'll let you keep his brass.
ColdDeadHands
11-08-11, 05:50
Actually, I think the Kimber Tactical Rifle is pretty decent. Haven't read a bad thing about them.
I would let him waste all the money in the world. Then when you out shoot him with your 700P, you can laugh at him... and maybe buy it off him cheap.
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 06:14
Actually, I think the Kimber Tactical Rifle is pretty decent. Haven't read a bad thing about them.
So do I. But I wouldn't give a 16 year old a Hayabusa motorcycle because he knew how to ride a bicycle.
Maybe he'll sell it to me because its "junk" ;)
".308 is a perfect round to learn on and build the skills you need to become a good long range shooter. You can take it out to 1000m as you build your abilities and it will force you to learn how to read wind and call it which is really the make or break part of long range shooting. You also get excellent barrel life and relatively cheap match ammo. A .300 win mag will start to lose accuracy in as little as 1000 rounds and can create/reinforce bad habits. It's also expensive to shoot expecially when you factor in barrel costs. A bad shooter with a .300 WM is still a bad shooter"
Show him Lowlight's youtube videos shooting 18" barreled .308s out to 1000m.
In the end you probably won't change his mind if he doesn't want to change it. Let him keep being an idiot, maybe he'll let you keep his brass.
"But BRO, Listen! A .300 Win Mag shoots like, twenty feet higher at 1000 yards than a .308 does. Its faster, so there is less wind movement...why people use the .308 still is beyond me"
Thats the mentality I am dealing with. He thinks with a .300WM, a walmart 3-9x scope and a bipod he is going to setup and start nailing steel at 1200 yards, even though he can't hit the paper at 300 yards with my rifle. His excuse is because its a .308 and he's "not used to it having so much drop". Not sure how that works because the scope is setup for POA/POI at 300 yards with a twist of the elevation turret.
I'm by no means an expert, but I like to think I have a tiny bit of formal marksmanship training. He refuses to listen. I will shoot him an email with links to what he should be buying and post his response here.
Have I mentioned he has absolutely no idea what MOA or mils are?
I would let him waste all the money in the world. Then when you out shoot him with your 700P, you can laugh at him... and maybe buy it off him cheap.
You have no idea, I already outshoot him in everything. Handguns, AR15s, AKs, it doesn't matter. I actually outshoot him with his own weapons. I think he is just about having the "status" of owning an HK USP, an FN Five-Seven, or now a Kimber Tactical, as opposed to actually knowing how to use it.
Perfect Example, he bought a Wilson Combat Shotgun for a stupid amount of money. Every-single-time he fires it, he fails to bring the pump back hard and fast enough inducing a failure to eject. Every single round. I've showed him how to man handle it and get proper feeding and ejection but he is content with sticking to his own habits and using his finger to work the spent shell out of the receiver. :rolleyes:
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 06:42
And win mag is pretty cheap compared to other large calibers like 338 and 50 cals
His response when I told him that .300WM is damn near $50 a box.
Brasilnuts
11-08-11, 06:51
You can hit with your .308@300 yards and he can't... that's called a clue and if he can't catch it then that's his own misfortune.
At this point I say let him buy what he wants and then when the rifle doesn't perform to his expectations maybe you can get hits with it and then the light bulb will go off in his head... I doubt it though.
edit: Just read your last post. I know how it is because I have friends like this too.
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 06:54
I found this rifle
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=259127008
Its the same rifle I have, only in .300WM.
He doesn't want it because its "so common".
I told him its common for a reason, and now he's looking at .338 Lapuas
It would be funny, but I know this guy. He's honest to God going to buy something that is way too much gun for him. I've seen him drop $1500 on a DSA FAL pistol like it was nothing....if only to be single again. :D
mkmckinley
11-08-11, 07:00
It would be funny, but I know this guy. He's honest to God going to buy something that is way too much gun for him. I've seen him drop $1500 on a DSA FAL pistol like it was nothing....if only to be single again. :D
If he's going to buy it anyway then you might as well use it to your advantage. Talk him into getting a really nice rig like an AI and then borrow it from him. You could get your own optic in a quick release mount and an Atlas bipod and put your stuff on when you go shot it.
I would let him waste all the money in the world. Then when you out shoot him with your 700P, you can laugh at him... and maybe buy it off him cheap.
Agreed. Chew his ass up on your 308 and ask him why he can't hang with his POWERFUL gun and Simmons scope? :rolleyes:
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 07:26
Agreed. Chew his ass up on your 308 and ask him why he can't hang with his POWERFUL gun and Simmons scope? :rolleyes:
You know the type:
"This ammo is crap. My eyes are hurting. My trigger finger is jammed"
I just fail to understand the appeal of jumping right into a serious caliber.
I worked my way up from the bottom, got excellent training, and I still don't feel like I can do anything the .308 can't do.
300WM is stupid, but reasonable. It does shoot flatter and faster than .308. If he gets a .338...well I just don't know
I will be sure to post pics of whatever he gets, and the groups that follow.
ICANHITHIMMAN
11-08-11, 07:28
We see this all the time the "magnum phenonomon" its pretty common. Just let him do what he wants, it obvious he thinks he knows better. The Tikka is a better rifle all day long. Kimber look nice but if he ever dicides to change the rifle in any way, good luck finding a reputable riflesmith to do the work.
I started with a 308 and progressed to a 300 win mag but mine has a brake on it.
He has never shot a precision rifle before, the only type of rifle shooting he has done is bump firing a cheap AK and shooting an M1A (horribly) from the bench at 100 yards.
He's trying to buy a Kimber or a Tikka souped up tactical rifle (and put a $250 scope on it).
How the hell do I convince him to start somewhere else? I've tried telling him that a .300 Win Mag is waaayyy overkill for his abilities and it will probably induce flinching at the recoil.
I have a Rem700P with a 20" barrel in .308 that he never shoots. I offer and he says "Nah, too weak. Its only a .308" but I ding steel at 800 all day. It took me almost 4 years of shooting to get to this level. What exactly he is looking to do beyond that, with no formal training or past experience, I don't know.
The one time he has shot my Remington 700 at 300 yards he couldn't get any of his shots in an 8" circle...from the bench...with sandbags, with the scope on 24x....and a Timney trigger.
What do I tell him? I can understand getting a rifle. I can understand wanting 300 Win Mag.
I cannot understand wanting a "designer brand" for your first rifle. The $500 he'd save getting a 700 or a Savage could be put to a better scope.
I, and other Americans like me, are thankful for your friend and their service to our firearm industry.
You tell him that his plan is badass and let him go on ahead and support our economy however he sees fit, because if you think you're going to talk him out of it then you're operating on his same level, mentally. I think you're better than that!
That being said, I understand wanting to buy something totally badass that you can "grow" into, but as others have mentioned, the .300WM is going to PREVENT growth, and a Wal-Mart scope will render the system moot. However, if he is as happy/happier than you are with your .308, regardless of the viability of his skills or platform, then he got his money's worth, no? You may think it's stupid, but then, someone who spends a ton of money on sports cars/tires may think people like us who spend tons of money on firearms are stupid and how could we possibly find joy in sitting behind something that nudges our shoulders, assaults our ears, and pokes a tiny hole in something hundreds of yards away.
Different strokes for different folks, if he is truly your friend and won't listen to your logic, just enjoy his happiness with him and have fun at the range and whatnot (as long as he is safe).
I started with a pellet gun (when I was around 5) went to a .22 when I was about 12, went to a .223 when I was a bit older, and quite frankly, have not yet been to a range at which the .223 is out of its league. Last time I shot my .223 I was doing about 1/2MOA with M193 at 415yards (if you discount the 3 or so out of 10 fliers in each group due to that wonderful Q3131 consistency). If the range had gone back to 800 yards or so, I bet after a good bit of trial and error, I could have launched some 75 or 77gr OTM's into a man-sized target on a calm day. In fact, Some .223/5.56 have comparable/better ballistics regarding drift than many common .308 rounds. I think less is more. I don't know a single person who can shoot a .300 more accurately than they can a .223.
I, and other Americans like me, are thankful for your friend and their service to our firearm industry.
You tell him that his plan is badass and let him go on ahead and support our economy however he sees fit,
I'm thankful I'm starting my day with this lol
If he can't take advice, that sucks.
If he's going to waste his money, that sucks too, but it's his money and some people have to learn the hard way.
If it was one of my close friends and I thought that our friendship could handle some temporary angst, I'd probably tell him that buying a nice rifle isn't going to fix poor shooting habits or a lack of skill.
QuietShootr
11-08-11, 07:57
You're not in Florida, by any chance, are you? That sounds just like a lot of douchebags I've met from there. All about "I gotta have a S&B, Bro!" but don't know a mil from their MIL.
So do I. But I wouldn't give a 16 year old a Hayabusa motorcycle because he knew how to ride a bicycle.
Maybe he'll sell it to me because its "junk" ;)
"But BRO, Listen! A .300 Win Mag shoots like, twenty feet higher at 1000 yards than a .308 does. Its faster, so there is less wind movement...why people use the .308 still is beyond me"
Thats the mentality I am dealing with. He thinks with a .300WM, a walmart 3-9x scope and a bipod he is going to setup and start nailing steel at 1200 yards, even though he can't hit the paper at 300 yards with my rifle. His excuse is because its a .308 and he's "not used to it having so much drop". Not sure how that works because the scope is setup for POA/POI at 300 yards with a twist of the elevation turret.
I'm by no means an expert, but I like to think I have a tiny bit of formal marksmanship training. He refuses to listen. I will shoot him an email with links to what he should be buying and post his response here.
Have I mentioned he has absolutely no idea what MOA or mils are?
You have no idea, I already outshoot him in everything. Handguns, AR15s, AKs, it doesn't matter. I actually outshoot him with his own weapons. I think he is just about having the "status" of owning an HK USP, an FN Five-Seven, or now a Kimber Tactical, as opposed to actually knowing how to use it.
Perfect Example, he bought a Wilson Combat Shotgun for a stupid amount of money. Every-single-time he fires it, he fails to bring the pump back hard and fast enough inducing a failure to eject. Every single round. I've showed him how to man handle it and get proper feeding and ejection but he is content with sticking to his own habits and using his finger to work the spent shell out of the receiver. :rolleyes:
QuietShootr
11-08-11, 07:58
You can hit with your .308@300 yards and he can't... that's called a clue and if he can't catch it then that's his own misfortune.
At this point I say let him buy what he wants and then when the rifle doesn't perform to his expectations maybe you can get hits with it and then the light bulb will go off in his head... I doubt it though.
edit: Just read your last post. I know how it is because I have friends like this too.
Why? Life's too short to spend it with morons.
I would let him waste all the money in the world. Then when you out shoot him with your 700P, you can laugh at him... and maybe buy it off him cheap.
Spec out a rifle you'd be happy to buy off him, and go from there.
Be honest give him the best advice you can, but if he's bent on going that route, at least one of you can enjoy having a nice shooting rifle.
devilsdeeds
11-08-11, 09:19
I think you should show him a 338 AWSM or AX and then just laugh when your outshooting him with a "regular" 700 .308
chasetopher
11-08-11, 09:38
Spec out a rifle you'd be happy to buy off him, and go from there.
Be honest give him the best advice you can, but if he's bent on going that route, at least one of you can enjoy having a nice shooting rifle.
When dealing with the "stubborn-more money than ability-types" this really is the only way to go. Might help you stay somewhat sane and at least you can relieve them of the "piece of junk" when he cant make it work for him.
Sometimes your stuck with these types, whether it be existing friends or family, but it would be much easier if you could just walk away and not deal with it.
When dealing with the "stubborn-more money than ability-types" this really is the only way to go. Might help you stay somewhat sane and at least you can relieve them of the "piece of junk" when he cant make it work for him.
Sometimes your stuck with these types, whether it be existing friends or family, but it would be much easier if you could just walk away and not deal with it.
I have a few friends like that, and other than that, they are wonderful people. Lets not allow a difference of opinion on firearms/optics/cars/whatever ruin otherwise healthy friendships.
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 10:47
Why? Life's too short to spend it with morons.
While he is a complete and utter tool when it comes to firearms (when he found out I was building a 10.3" AR15 SBR, he said I needed to go 7.5" because that is what the Navy SEALs use) he is still a good guy, and a safe range partner.
He doesn't make dumb decisions, except buying ridiculously expensive guns with no practical application (8" barreled DSA pistol, 2" barreled Ruger Alaskan .454) or ones that cost a ton to shoot (FN Five Seven, Glock 32) or ones that are from the movies (Walther PPK in 32ACP, HK USP) To each his own.
That and he drives like 5 MPH below the speed limit at all times. :stop: Even on wide open 45 MPH roads when everyone else is doing 55+ we're tuggin along in the high 30s.
About the only two faults I can find ;)
You're not in Florida, by any chance, are you? That sounds just like a lot of douchebags I've met from there. All about "I gotta have a S&B, Bro!" but don't know a mil from their MIL.
Of course I'm in Florida, near Tampa.
Spec out a rifle you'd be happy to buy off him, and go from there.
Be honest give him the best advice you can, but if he's bent on going that route, at least one of you can enjoy having a nice shooting rifle.
I will. If he's set on getting a decent tactical precision rig, I might as well benefit from it. Maybe he'll sell it to me after he figures out I know how to use it better than he does ;)
It's my guess that the OP's intentions are not to dupe his friend and eventually get a rifle out of it, but to help his friend make a better choice.
I'd say sit him down and talk about what he wants to accomplish with his shooting, and then talk about how best to get there. Try to get him to focus on what's going to make him a more capable shooter, and not what's a more capable platform, or what's cooler.
Gear can't make up for suck.
TriumphRat675
11-08-11, 10:56
Lots of guys have their nuts too tightly wound around their opinions on cars, guns, girls, what-have-you to listen to someone they think of as a peer instead of an authority figure... Experience is a great teacher in this regard...so long as he's safe, let him spend the money and learn the lesson.
SilentButDeadly
11-08-11, 11:25
Your putting way too much effort into this. He's going to buy what he wants and theres really nothing you can do about it. Just give him your best advise and let him make his own mistakes. Then go school him with your .308.
Lots of guys have their nuts too tightly wound around their opinions on cars, guns, girls, what-have-you to listen to someone they think of as a peer instead of an authority figure... Experience is a great teacher in this regard...so long as he's safe, let him spend the money and learn the lesson.
Experience is a GREAT teacher! I know, sometimes I too have to learn the hard way. But there are some that just won't listen to peers or authority figures with TONS of experience, have learned the hard way, and are just trying to pass on that knowledge to help other avoid the same pitfalls. I like to call them the "I know what I know, don't confuse me with the facts" type. There are many out there.
In this case, he really isn't hurting anyone, so it's probably all good. Frustrating as it may be that he just won't heed your advice, you tried. Maybe one day he'll realize what you are trying to convey to him.
Eurodriver
11-08-11, 11:53
Well... Nevermind.
That is not my intention, but I can see it happening.
He wanted to sell me his FN Five Seven for $600 until he realized it was him that can't shoot, not the handgun.
He wanted to sell me his FN Five Seven for $600 until he realized it was him that can't shoot, not the handgun.
The gun may have needed more lube! :p
You are looking at this all wrong man. Let him buy a barret, .338 or whatever he dreams of having. Then start betting him money on every shot. Soon you'll be able to afford to buy a 338.
.338 Lapua ammunition costs more money than .50 BMG
Your friend is ****ed in the head. He can't afford a decent scope but wants to shoot one of the most expensive rounds money can buy.
Let him waste his ****ing money.
QuietShootr
11-08-11, 13:37
While he is a complete and utter tool when it comes to firearms (when he found out I was building a 10.3" AR15 SBR, he said I needed to go 7.5" because that is what the Navy SEALs use) he is still a good guy, and a safe range partner.
He doesn't make dumb decisions, except buying ridiculously expensive guns with no practical application (8" barreled DSA pistol, 2" barreled Ruger Alaskan .454) or ones that cost a ton to shoot (FN Five Seven, Glock 32) or ones that are from the movies (Walther PPK in 32ACP, HK USP) To each his own.
That and he drives like 5 MPH below the speed limit at all times. :stop: Even on wide open 45 MPH roads when everyone else is doing 55+ we're tuggin along in the high 30s.
About the only two faults I can find ;)
Of course I'm in Florida, near Tampa.
I will. If he's set on getting a decent tactical precision rig, I might as well benefit from it. Maybe he'll sell it to me after he figures out I know how to use it better than he does ;)
Christ... I just knew it. Floridouches have a distinct set of mannerisms, one of which is being attracted to flashy, expensive things just because they're flashy and expensive.
Why? Life's too short to spend it with morons.
That's where I am. I mean, seriously, why give a damn about how someone esle spends their money?
That's where I am. I mean, seriously, why give a damn about how someone esle spends their money?
Agreed. 300 Win Mag is fine. He'll either learn to shoot it, or sell it. Doesn't bother me from my house.
johnnychimpo
11-08-11, 15:46
Modern Warfare 3 would be a better choice for him.
I quit telling my friends about my gun purchases, they say things like "You've got a problem" or "You can only shoot one gun at a time".
I quit telling my friends about my gun purchases, they say things like "You've got a problem" or "You can only shoot one gun at a time".
you forgot ``that´s borderline terroristic´´
DeltaSierra
11-08-11, 17:03
I've pretty much stopped trying to give advice based upon facts as no one wants to listen to that.
If someone wants my advice, I'm glad to give it, but I've given up on trying to convince idiots like Eurodriver's friend...
Let him waste his money on anything he pleases.... It is obvious that he doesn't have a clue...
Eurodriver
11-09-11, 07:11
Last night he bought a Sako TRG-41... in .338 Lapua.
Quotes taken straight from our text conversation:
"Bro, I can't believe you bought a .338 thats like $2000 and you're going to put the $80 scope off your PTR91 on it"
"So what man? I'll eventually get a nice scope, this should work."
"No man. No. It will not work. That scope is going to fall apart. Good luck hitting anything at 100 yards after the first five shots. Seriously."
"Psh, what do you know :p"
This is his first bolt action rifle. He does not reload. I don't even know what to think. At least its not my money I guess. He thinks I'm just ****ing around with him.
Why the hell don't people listen to other people? I take advice.
QuietShootr
11-09-11, 07:35
Last night he bought a Sako TRG-41... in .338 Lapua.
Quotes taken straight from our text conversation:
This is his first bolt action rifle. He does not reload. I don't even know what to think. At least its not my money I guess. He thinks I'm just ****ing around with him.
Why the hell don't people listen to other people? I take advice.
Classic Florida Guido.
Do you know why people don't try to teach pigs to sing? It wastes their time and annoys the pig.
Please don't forget to take him shooting and post a range report with pictures!
Last night he bought a Sako TRG-41... in .338 Lapua.
Quotes taken straight from our text conversation:
This is his first bolt action rifle. He does not reload. I don't even know what to think. At least its not my money I guess. He thinks I'm just ****ing around with him.
Why the hell don't people listen to other people? I take advice.
That is a nice rifle and you can buy it off of him when get gets tired of it for cheap.
Please don't forget to take him shooting and post a range report with pictures!
This.... I'm interested to see if there's an awakening with this goofball.
Now that he has a gun, you should tell him to become a member on Sniper's Hide and post lots of pictures of his new piece.
1. Go shoot with him at the 100y line
2. Buy him a box of 285 GR BTHP Hornady Match
3. Compare grouping. (He'll probably not even be on paper.)
4. Tell him it's a crap rifle and that's why the NSWC/CAG/Team-Six ditched their TRGs for a *customized* R700 action.
5. Offer to swap your r700 for his TRG.
6. ??
7. Profit!
Does OP's friend have a Taurus Judge? Just curious.
Eurodriver
11-09-11, 11:10
Does OP's friend have a Taurus Judge? Just curious.
Unbelievable. You have no idea how many times I've heard the "I'm shooting shotgun buckshot out of my handgun. Your 9mm is puny..."
Attached his a pic of his PTR91 and the scope he plans on using on his .338 Lapua. Anyone got any guesses? I've seen it in person and the logo is green with yellow writing, thats all I remember.
Anyone got any guesses? I've seen it in person and the logo is green with yellow writing, thats all I remember.
BSA Contender Riflescopes (http://swfa.com/BSA-3-12x40-Contender-Riflescope-P13044.aspx)
militarymoron
11-09-11, 12:28
eurodriver, you've done what you can. you can lead a horse to water...
but i think we've beat this one to death as well.
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