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View Full Version : AAR Vickers Tactical Home Defense / US Training Center (Moyock, NC) Nov 4-6th 2011



Titleist
11-08-11, 21:39
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Vickers Tactical
www.vickerstactical.com

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Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com



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Vickers Tactical Home Defense
US Training Center
Moyock, NC

For those of you who haven’t attended the Derek Zoolander School for Kids who want to read good and want to do other stuff good too; this class was awesome. I classify this class as much an adventure as it was a great training opportunity. So for those brave souls that don’t mind a rather long and wordy documentation of said class I say turn back now.

Back in November of last year I remember getting a call from my buddy Patrick (D90KING) asking me if I wanted to participate in the Vickers Tactical Home Defense class. This was the same class, a year prior that Jon (M4Guru / Danger Close) asked me if I wanted to attend. Back when Jon asked me it was a situation of, “hey man, there’s a waiting list for this class, but if you want in I’ll let you know.” Of course a few weeks before class began he emails me, “We have a space, you want it?” 3 weeks to get the money together for class, buying frangible, airfare, hotel, rental car, etc, just wasn’t possible. I did however ask myself honestly if I was ready for a class with that kind of material. I thought to myself that I wasn’t ready; that I knew enough to know I didn’t know enough.

So when the opportunity came up again I jumped on it. And thus began 11 months of preparation for this class. I thought ahead and signed up for one of Larry’s 2-day Carbine classes (in Kansas City) in May, to provide me with insight into Larry’s teaching style and his expectations. I put much more of a focus during that time into handgun work, and low-light skill building. Essentially my goal was to spool up the skills I knew we’d be tapping for time spent in this class.

Fast forward 11 months and I found myself sitting in the Delta Terminal at Portland International Airport at close to midnight, nursing my third beer while waiting for my late flight to Atlanta. After struggling to get my giant Storm 2950 case under the 50lb limit and a conversation with the regional TSA manager I ended up carrying my armor plates through security. If you do a lot of flying you know that airports basically become ghost towns after 9-9:30pm. So here I am basically putting my shoes, toiletries, and armor plates in a plastic bin and shuffling them through the X-Ray machine. Since everyone was in a good mood they invited me behind the machine to actually look at the plates. This being the first time I’ve had the chance to verify through X-rays that they looked clean and good to go.

After getting to my gate, and finding that my flight is 2 hours delayed I decided that as long as I was sober enough to get into my seat then it was time to pound a few beers. The guy next to me took this to an extreme and drank so much that when the flight started boarding they couldn’t even wake him up.

8 hours later, with guns, fellow students, and gear in tow, we arrived at US Training Center. Due to some verbal miscommunication on the part of the Black Bear Inn, my friend Seth and I were stuck in the bunkhouse. Basically about the standards of a 2nd rate college dorm we were only greeted by one small roach, which was snuffed out before I even had the chance to say hello. Gear unpacking commenced, grub was rustled up, and we prepared for training.

Training Day 1: Pistol Skill Building

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The weather in Moyock was a cruel joke, 70-degree weather all week up until Friday, and then as soon as class begins it’s raining, cold, and windy. You know what they say about raining in regards to class.

Just like Grant pointed out last year, everyone in attendance was a solid shooter, with a class count of around 18-20 shooters. With almost all of the students having gone through one of Larry’s classes beforehand, some even having taken the Home Defense class last year. With everyone rallying at Range T1, Larry greeted us, told us just to grab our handguns, and to line up on the 15yd line on the adjacent T2 range.

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With bull’s-eye targets up, Larry had us fire 10 rounds at our own speed. This served just to see where the students were at skill-wise. Targets looked quite good, to which Larry then emphasized how 10 yds may have been our longest shot in the houses, and even at those distances due to the stress we would very likely shank shots into the white, and that getting our shit in order ON THE FLAT RANGE was critical before we risked ****ing up in the house.

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To identify El Snatcho we broke into pairs and did the shell casing/dime on the front sight drill. Each time we dry fired, with a clean pull of the trigger resulting on the casing or dime not falling off the front sight. At this point I should mention I decided to be a retard and was shooting my Nighthawk FLX, “Holmes, you’re gonna really hate life when we get into the house with that fiber optic front sight…” “I’m sorry, Larry…”

Next was the Ball and Dummy drill, which we worked as partners, randomly loading each other’s guns to reveal when the shooter was anticipating recoil. If you snatched the trigger you did 5 clean dry fires, set the gun up again with a partner, and then swapped positions with your partner to assist them. With the refresher in trigger pull covered we split into two relays, and performed a modified group walkback drill. Starting at 5 yards, where we’d fire two shots, then 3, then 4, and then step back to 7yds, repeating the shot cadence, then back to 10yds, 15, and finally 20yds. The goal was to keep all shots within the 10 ring, again, as Larry said, because even up close we would be prone to throwing shots off the bull’s-eye just due to the situation if we weren’t careful.

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After hauling out barricades we broke into a line, with 4 stations; a tall vertical barricade on the left, a stepped barricade in the middle, and another tall barricade on the right. Because of the nature of the class, and the caliber of students, we were expected to know how to deal with barricades already, specifically movement, footwork, and weapon handling. We ran this setup twice, once right-handed, then left-handed.

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With our pistol refresher completed Larry brought us in to the entrance of Shoothouse T1. At this point Larry echoed some of the possible scenarios we might find ourselves in, such as entering a house alone, leaving a house alone, getting from one part of the house to another (getting to our kids, etc), and the practical and logistical challenges of moving and clearing each room.

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Larry then split the groups in half, with Larry handling the group entering into to the hallways on the left side of the range, and Jon handling the group entering from the front. Immediately you get to the door and Larry just says, “okay, whenever you’re ready…” Whenever I’m ready? Okay, so I just open the door? That’s it?! This wasn’t a handholding class, which meant that Larry didn’t brief all of us as to how do clear a room step by step, but rather we figured it out as we went, and at any time we could stop, and ask Larry how best to approach the situation. However this meant that for a lot of us we would go through our runs, stop, and then ask, “Okay, so what did I **** up and how terrible was that, Larry?” Doors, even shit as simple as knobs you learned to open from the side closest to the knob. Students would reach across the entire doorway to hear LAV stop the student, “Holmes, you considered trying it from the other side?” “Uhhh…nope.”

Experience gained on even that first run was invaluable. Square range mentality is to move with pistols and rifles in the SUL position. But once you start to pie corners you find that you can’t do that, in fact what bit me on my first run was that I had the gun crunched up way too close to my face (“That shit is gonna come back and smack you in the head if you fire, Bro.”), and I was moving my head, and the gun wasn’t tracking with my eyes. This meant I would identify the target, bring the gun up to fire, make a controlled pair, and then search and assess. For most people movement and just treating each room like that chess was the biggest challenge to overcome. Each room was just a simple game of geometry. I need to go there, but there’s a door so I move left to a certain point, then swing right before making a judgment call. And not only that I need to move through the room in such a way that I don’t look like a geriatric retard. BUT don’t move so fast that I can’t process the room.

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In addition to that you still need to put your rounds in the bulls. Which when you’re surprised by a ‘boogie man’ target (one that’s JUST around the corner) your shots can miss the black completely, and this was from just 2yds! The common thread for the class was “Yo, you’re moving too fast for your brain to process.” And that alone sums up the biggest hurdle, being smooth, perceiving the hand you’re dealt, and deciding on that plan of action, and executing it with as little wasted movement as possible.

Our group then moved to Jon’s side of the house to run another set of rooms. The biggest nugget for that first day came from the feedback given to me by Jon, when I was shooting around corners in a cramped up manner, “Isaac, just take a step back, okay, punch out. See how you’ve made full extension and you’re still getting the same view of the room? Do that.” This came into play when running a rifle over the next few days, especially in tight quarters. Another key point of thinking through the situation was that if you need to work a malfunction, or a reload, just step back behind cover. I, and other shooters, would sometimes just stand there rather than just taking one step over to square their shit away. My FLX double fed, okay, lock, strip, rack, re-insert, powerstroke, go, all while standing in the doorway like a dipshit. Okay, don’t do that again, learning occurred.

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Back out and over to Larry’s side of the house, where we essentially started where the first run ended, by engaging targets at the bottom and top of stairs. These stairs were triple wide, and steep, as Jon later said, “Okay guys, these stairs are huge, so if your house has stairs this big call me, because I wanna move in with you!”

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One of the things that go me was focusing on the target at the top of the stairs, but not scanning right above me to search for a possible landing or overhang. And to pie around the corners meant moving left and right, and up and down the staircase like a swoop, all of which required solid footwork and constant scanning.

At this point the question of optics came up, what was the best? “Aim ****ing Mother****ing Point!” – LAV.

Simple as that.

Titleist
11-08-11, 21:39
Day 2: Carbine Skill Building

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We were spared rain, but given constant gusting wind. Tom and Michael from Raven Concealment also joined us on Day 2. This being the third class I’ve had the chance to hang with them, and besides making a great product they’re involvement with the shooting community is fantastic.

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With everyone kitted up we assembled on T2, and began working on rifle fundamentals, transitions, and barricades. Shoulder switching was also a covered topic, as bringing the gun around the target without exposing more of your body then needed, is an essential tactic. I’m in the lucky few who can shoot weakside with both eyes open, “If you can do this, go out and buy a few lotto tickets.” Some folks just could not easily get their brain and eyes to handle this kind of aiming.

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Another thing that bit me on the range, and then bit me bad in the house, was safety selector manipulation. I wasn’t being unsafe, in fact I was being TOO safe to throw that lever back to SAFE. “Who taught you how to work the safety?” “I don’t know, Larry” “Stop doing that” “Yes, Larry, sorry, Larry.” Instead of throwing the safety back on right after the controlled pair the gun should have been on fire, finger straight and off the trigger, while scanning down range, once I was certain no more bad guys, THEN throw the safety back on.

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After a few specific carbine drills related to close quarters we busted out the frangible ammunition to verify it would feed and cycle. The last thing you want is ball ammo making its way into your gun in a shoothouse. Because that bullet trap aint gonna trap shit.

“Trust me, guys, you shoot me by accident and I’ll shoot back” – Jon.

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After lunch we broke off into two groups. One would head down to Range T11 with Larry, and the other would stay at T1 with Jon. Our group stayed at T1, and we were run through T1 with carbines. As I come up to the door, I’m amped, cautious but amped. I grab the handle, kick the door open with my foot, and pie around the corner. BAD GUY! CLICK! CLICK? “SAFETY IS ON, DUMBASS!” I tell myself. Safety off, controlled pair right in the black. Safety back on, pie around the corner, another bad guy, CLICK! “GOD DAMNIT!” Safety off, controlled pair! Shit! Jon would later mention that this is one of the most common mistakes, just over-running the gun and not thinking through how you’d normally shoot the gun in any other situation. Again, learning point, that’s the last time that problem cropped up.

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All in all I think for the 3 days we only did 6-7 runs through the houses. However the real information to be gained was by observing how other shooters were moving through the houses. To see how they were tackling the geometry of each room. Given that the best time spent was climbing up into the catwalks to follow each shooter around. For me it was to grab photos, but just sitting there and observing was completely invaluable time spent.

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After our group finished up Larry’s group queued up behind us, and our group shuffled down to T11. T11 is a large, one story shoothouse, with a large central catwalk running down the top. Both ranges present unique challenges. T1 is completely contained, so lights can be dialed up, down, or off, it’s multi-level with tight and wide staircases, and presents the most realistic representation of what most homes would feel like (sans furniture). T11 to me feels most like moving through a condo, office, etc, and with it’s wide hallways and large rooms, creates massive zones where you can wander into spots where you can get zipped from two directions if you’re not careful.

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I want to single out my friend Jim Carter for a second. Throughout the weekend he was struggling with two mindsets. As a Marine he hard charges through a room, and a few times pie’d right around a corner to engage a target, only to expose himself unknowingly to another target. “You’re used to having 3 other guys covering you, right?” “Yeah, I am.” So for Jim there was a certain switching of mentalities that had to happen, one that involved slowing down to realize it was just himself, and not with the support of other shooters. This in a nutshell summed up how shitty it is to do a one man clear. There’s righter ways to move through a situations, but there is no definitive RIGHT way. As such doing so is a slow, deliberate slog through your knowns, and unknowns in the room. Once you engage a target, get in to that room in a responsive manner, but as one man you need to SLOW DOWN.

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One of the changes on T11 was that we were no longer using bullseye targets, but had moved to humanoid photos. This meant that shot placement became critical. A headshot took on new value as hitting a target in the jaw, hand, or gun, wasn’t good enough. Mechanical Offset also dinged quite a few shooters, as under stress shots were low into the mouth, or down below the pumper. “You’re coming into that room, focus on the hairline, or top of the clavicle.”

To introduce transitions Larry had all of us hand our mags over to another student, who then proceeded to load between 5-12 rounds. This would force an empty gun, requiring us to continue with our handguns only.

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Once you start going through a tight hallway you quickly realize that one of the best weapons is still your handgun, purely for the maneuverability it provides. Given that the next best thing is a short barreled rifle with a good Red Dot Optic…again that being an Aimpoint. Even at 11.5 inches, plus a suppressor, that setup starts feeling huge as hell in a hallway that’s 4-5’ wide.

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Also T-intersections suck. Big time. For reals. We then wrapped up the day, dropped gear off, and then packed our way in for a class dinner.

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Titleist
11-08-11, 21:40
Day 3: Low-Light / Two Man Clears.

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With an extra hour of sleep gained from daylights savings time, and some respectable weather, we started the third and final day. The class again split into two, with Larry’s group again heading down to T11. Jon ran our group at T1, this time with pistols only, in low-light. So now we’d have to do target identification, but also still move smoothly, and make solid hits. It’s my turn, I step through the room, go up to the door, and activate my DG switch on my M&P. Nothing. “Dumbass,” I again tell myself. I swapped the batteries around during transit. I pull out my Surefire LX2, open the door, and start making deliberate burst of light to identify what’s in the room. Bad guys! I roll out around the door jam, controlled pair, good hits. I then slowly work my way into the room, and get bunched up at the door, which is deliberately crowded with something in the doorway. Instead of opening up the door to the hallway to make a shot I instead lean over the obstruction, and in a totally bizarre lean make my shots. Controlled pair, rounds are almost touching…about an inch outside the black. Crap. Jon calls stop, and walks me back around to show me how just by manipulating the situation I could create an avenue of fire, and a better POV of what can be seen down the hallway.

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Jon then kicked us out of the house, re-shuffled the layout, and then took us through a small hallway that would force us through a closed room, and then a tight staircase. This one was tough, but tied together everything we’d learned the past few days. Immediately on opening the door was staged a no-shoot target, you’d then pie to the right, engage a target, and then proceed up a very tight set of stairs. As a realistic but challenging, “**** you,” was a target on the top of the landing, the stairs would then snake around with another target at the top. Surprisingly not a single person shot the no-shoot, affectionately nick-named Menudo.

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While all of this was taking place, those students not shooting were being given a white-board session of how two man-clears work. Specifically regarding sectors of fire, button hooking, strong-walling, red-zones, verbal commands, and the difference between entering a center-fed room, versus a corner-fed room.

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I cannot stress this fact enough, but this portion of the class, purely to educate us while we were waiting, was by far some of the most impressive information given. We were lucky enough to have a few guest instructors supporting Larry, and the combined operational experience being presented to us was staggering. As D90King said to me at lunch, “The combination of WHO is teaching this information is almost once in a lifetime.” These instructors, guest if you will, were constantly observing us from catwalks, and when Larry or Jon would give their feedback they’d be able to just look up and ask, “you got any more observations for him?” Being able to have more than one set of eyes on you allowed for a massive increase in improvements you could make, what you did right, and what you did wrong. Your brain is processing so much information, to do it safely, and to hit your targets. That stepping back, and self-diagnosing what you think you did wrong or right became tremendously tough. Without these other instructors each person would be at a loss.

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After lunch Larry offered us a choice. We could either stay at T1 with Larry to continue single man clears, or head down to T11 with Jon for two-man clears. I opted for doing two-man clears. Gathering up our gear we caravanned down to T11. Unloaded our rifles, and stacked into the main room outside the central interior of the one-story shoothouse. We were paired off, and ran the room with dry weapons, focusing on the communication, and understanding the sectors we were responsible for that we learned back on the whiteboard.

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The shoothouse was then reshuffled and we did it live. Communication was king in this situation. Specially when entering into your teammates sector, calling shots, requesting and permitting movement, etc. Simple things like your teammate not going far enough down their strong-side wall can cause you to bind up because that leaves you exposed. It was also related to us that if the first man in the stack gets tagged that the second man has a 90 percent chance of getting tagged as well. This put it in perspective how important it was for both people to get into the room in a smooth and deliberate manner, taking the corners while gun turreting to cover their sectors, all while NOT stopping to focus on a target. Unless that threat is right in that doorway you get to your corner and do your job.

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We were run through the two-man clears twice. Then we hit 1500 on the clock, cleaned up our house, and headed back at T1 for a final class gathering before shaking hands, packing up gear, and heading home.

Conclusions:

A lot of this is going to sound familiar to Grant’s AAR from last year, and for good reason. This is hard material; it requires a mental aptitude for looking at situations and reacting to them accordingly, quickly, but most importantly smoothly. Things directly learned:

- Don’t crowd cover, take a step back, don’t be a crumpled up retard.
- Don’t work your malfunctions in a doorway.
- Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Fast is awesome, if you’re a marine, and have buddies!
- Never give up what you just fought to control!
- Stairs are bullshit.
- Landings on top of stairways are super bullshit!
- Be smooth and deliberate on your safety selector.
- There’s no prize for fastest one man clear, slow down and THINK!
- Short Barreled Rifles are awesome.
- Muzzle Brakes indoors are the quickest way to give Larry and Jon headaches.
- If you start shooting at the range before Larry gets his earpro on be prepared to piss him the **** off.

This was hands down the most amazing training experience I’ve had in the last 3 years of firearms training. Between the location, quality of students, material, just the pure volume of operational experience that was being shared with us, and used to keep us safe, was tremendously humbling. The fact that people like Larry, Jon, and others, were willing to share this information with us tremendously appreciated. Whether you were LE, MIL, or civilian, the information was applicable because we all live in houses, apartments, etc, and that slight shift in perceiving your surroundings immediately makes you change how you view where you live.

I want to thank Larry for once again being a great instructor. Grey Group, Paul Hotaling, and Jon for organizing these classes to begin with. Tom and Michael for spending their time at the class, as well as bring all the students a set of brand new 12ga shotgun panels (called ModuLoaders), and for putting up with my shitty attempt to cut bread (sorry). US Training Center, for your occasional roach, powdered eggs, yet amazing facility that is open to us civilians.

Finally, I want to thank the students, for defining the tempo of the class right from the get-go. From experience I know classes can be a slog, or they can be a sprint, and what separates the two is the quality of the students. When people are at the level, you can go full tilt into the material. We certainly did that. Thank you all for the great weekend, for keeping it safe, and keeping it fun.

I plan to re-take this class next year, 3 days was like trying to drink water from a fire hose.

Gear:

For this class I ran the 11.5” upper that Grant put together for me a few years back, which is an 11.5 barreled upper with a Knights URXII, with Knights Triple Tap brake. I used this in conjunction with my Knights QDSS suppressor running Federal 5.56 XM193 and Black Hills 55gr MPG frangible ammo. On day 1 I ran my Nighthawk 9mm FLX, and then transitioned to my M&P Pro, which sat in my Raven Concealment Phantom LC.

Armor was BAE/Ceradyne SAPI-Style Level 4 plates in a Blue Force Gear LMAC carrier, with pistol/rifle mags being carried in a RCS ‘Sonny’ rig on my ARES Gear Ranger Belt.

Photos:
Day 1: http://www.flickr.com/photos/isaac_marchionna/sets/72157627954656275/
Day 2: http://www.flickr.com/photos/isaac_marchionna/sets/72157628080400488/
Day 3: http://www.flickr.com/photos/isaac_marchionna/sets/72157627955201895/

SeriousStudent
11-08-11, 22:41
Isaac, thank you very much for this AAR. I have been looking forward to reading it with great interest. I particularly liked the point you made about the right time to re-apply the safety.

Excellent photography, by the way.

Ironman8
11-08-11, 23:45
To say this class was awesome would be the understatement of the year. Thanks for the AAR, Titleist! I know I learned more than I will be able to remember that's for sure.

TOrrock
11-09-11, 00:11
Outstanding.

Vinh
11-09-11, 01:38
As always, thanks to Larry and Paul for a fantastic class.

Special thanks to the guest instructors for providing plenty of useful feedback.

Thanks to Titleist for the nice photos.

glock_forty5
11-09-11, 04:52
Great AAR. I always admire students that take the time to put their gear down and take pictures (I am always to busy drinking from the fire-hose).

I will add to this thread my big take away. After you pie the door from the outside you still need to look in each corner. Peripheral vision cannot be trusted. Larry corrected me on this and I understood what he meant but did not see what I did until I got on the cat walk and watched others do the same. That was a light bulb moment. The other thing that trapped me was on the 2 man drill, I was first man in and as soon as I saw a target, I stopped, in the door way and engaged. My teammate was stuck behind me. Big mistake. Entering a room with a bad guy, running past him to my sector, and then engaging him will take some practice. In the graphic below I did not do what shooter number 1 does, well on my first time through anyway. :p

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This was a great class with outstanding instruction. Larry and his special guest instructors delivered big time. I absorbed a lot of lessons and now I must master them. My wife thinks I am crazy the way I walk around clearing the house. Hell, I pie-ed the doorway to the conference room at work yesterday! Got to practice where I can. Also to be stated was the level of skill of all the students. Never once did I have pause for concern. This was the key to get the most out of this class. Plus no one stepped on my toe shoes despite the temptation! Thanks goes to Paul and Grey Group for putting all this together.

JT

PS- I am not sure what is in a Cracker Barrel Country Fried Steak but it was good.

30 cal slut
11-09-11, 05:00
great aar Isaac!

NCPatrolAR
11-09-11, 08:38
Great AAR. I need to get out to one of these classes some day.

PoppaPump
11-09-11, 08:58
Sounds like a killer class, great job on the AAR.

TomF
11-09-11, 09:58
Michael and I had a good time hanging out and jumping in on a few runs through the houses. I've attended and taught a lot of classes, and this one was certainly "class of the year" material as LAV put it.

Hope to see you all on the range sometime soon.

m4fun
11-09-11, 10:11
Titleist - great AAR!

This was an outstanding class - really taking it out of the square range. Larry and the cadre that assisted were top notch, that would be hard to replicate.

Glad to see some of the familiar faces.

30 cal slut
11-09-11, 10:30
Titleist - great AAR!

This was an outstanding class - really taking it out of the square range. Larry and the cadre that assisted were top notch, that would be hard to replicate.

Glad to see some of the familiar faces.

:cool:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/m4funmldk.jpg

d90king
11-09-11, 13:17
This was an OUTSTANDING class! Not only the instruction, but also the level of shooters was excellent. I am working on my AAR which should be done in the next day or so...

In all honesty I'm still processing a lot of what was learned and working on how to articulate it properly.

Watrdawg
11-09-11, 13:18
Great AAR Titlest. As soon as this class is listed again I'm signing up!

Titleist
11-09-11, 15:21
Thanks guys, but a huge thanks to Larry and all the folks at GGT who made this class possible. That said, I don't think I'll ever eat at Cracker Barrel again. :bad:

30 cal slut
11-09-11, 15:27
I don't think I'll ever eat at Cracker Barrel again. :bad:

:eek:

TOrrock
11-09-11, 15:44
Thanks guys, but a huge thanks to Larry and all the folks at GGT who made this class possible. That said, I don't think I'll ever eat at Cracker Barrel again. :bad:

Thou shall not forsake the Charlie Bravo. :ph34r:

Titleist
11-09-11, 15:55
Thou shall not forsake the Charlie Bravo. :ph34r:

Yes ma'am.

Oh poor Justin Bieber, you never had a chance:

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6230/6329495793_a4a18011f9_b.jpg

Jim D
11-09-11, 16:11
What?!

You can't train at USTC with LAV and not go to the Cracker Barrel... everytime you do, God kills a kitten.

It should just start going on the course announcements.

Heavy Metal
11-09-11, 16:22
You know, they have a large selection.

I usually get the double-meat Breakfast. It is a safe choice.

MFP
11-09-11, 17:17
Titleist,

“Holmes, you’re gonna really hate life when we get into the house with that fiber optic front sight…”

Can you expand why the fiber optic front sight was not a good choice with examples from the shoothouse under various light conditions?

My G19 has a black read DP sight and front is DP FO.

Thanks,

MFP

Titleist
11-09-11, 17:23
Because even subconsciously night sights give you general alignment of the sights under low-light, no light. And the fiber front sight, especially on a pistol without a weapon light can be VERY slow to align your shot.

My FLX is a game gun, for a home defense gun I usually use my M&P 9c or my SBR.



What?!

You can't train at USTC with LAV and not go to the Cracker Barrel... everytime you do, God kills a kitten.

It should just start going on the course announcements.

Sorry...sorry...I didn't mean to kick anyones' dog or somethin'. I'll make my stomach harden the f*ck up.

Mark71
11-09-11, 19:15
Titleist,

Thanks for the great pics and detailed AAR. This class looked awesome!

30 cal slut
11-09-11, 20:00
Because even subconsciously night sights give you general alignment of the sights under low-light, no light. And the fiber front sight, especially on a pistol without a weapon light can be VERY slow to align your shot.

My FLX is a game gun, for a home defense gun I usually use my M&P 9c or my SBR.




Sorry...sorry...I didn't mean to kick anyones' dog or somethin'. I'll make my stomach harden the f*ck up.


I'd also add that LAV has indicated in past classes that fiber optic sights are fragile. We had a few break in several of LAV's handgun classes.

Jim D
11-09-11, 21:21
Sorry...sorry...I didn't mean to kick anyones' dog or somethin'. I'll make my stomach harden the f*ck up.

Atta' boy! :cool:

Watrdawg
11-10-11, 07:08
Heading to CB tonight. May have to have breakfast for dinner.

subzero
11-10-11, 08:44
Once you start going through a tight hallway you quickly realize that one of the best weapons is still your handgun, purely for the maneuverability it provides. Given that the next best thing is a short barreled rifle with a good Red Dot Optic…again that being an Aimpoint. Even at 11.5 inches, plus a suppressor, that setup starts feeling huge as hell in a hallway that’s 4-5’ wide.

QFT

I did a run or two with my 14.5" barreled carbine and it was just as unwieldy as the 16" I tried using in similar situations before. Once I switched to my handgun I immediately felt more comfortable and better able to handle the various angles without flagging myself.

If my form had come back for my MP5, it'd be a different story. Next time, perhaps.

30 cal slut
11-10-11, 09:15
QFT

I did a run or two with my 14.5" barreled carbine and it was just as unwieldy as the 16" I tried using in similar situations before. Once I switched to my handgun I immediately felt more comfortable and better able to handle the various angles without flagging myself.

If my form had come back for my MP5, it'd be a different story. Next time, perhaps.

I was thinking a 10.5 inch piston upper with a lightweight can would be a good tool to have. Next year, maybe.

caporider
11-10-11, 09:40
I was thinking a 10.5 inch piston upper with a lightweight can would be a good tool to have. Next year, maybe.

This is why I went with a reflex-type suppressor (Surefire) for my SBR: you get a little more barrel for reliable DI operation (In my case a 12.5" BCM barrel) and less added length with the suppressor mounted than with end-of-barrel cans. On top of that, the actual suppression is much better than with a mini or micro can.

Were any of the cans at the class reflex-type? Just curious.

Titleist
11-10-11, 10:10
Majority was Surefires, a couple AACs, and my Knights.

C4IGrant
11-10-11, 13:34
Nice AAR. Good times were had. Very nice to meet you guys (after talking with you for years on the forums).

Good group of shooters that were there to learn and apply what they had learned.


I just got back from the LE/Mil CQB class where there was much more yelling. :jester: Will get my pics up from the class after.


C4



Nothing says "The hate train is coming" like an MP5. ;)
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6102/6325124260_8b9966a714_b.jpg

Mr. Smith
11-11-11, 07:48
Nice AAR. Good times were had. Very nice to meet you guys (after talking with you for years on the forums).

Good group of shooters that were there to learn and apply what they had learned.


I just got back from the LE/Mil CQB class where there was much more yelling. :jester: Will get my pics up from the class after.


C4



Nothing says "The hate train is coming" like an MP5. ;)
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6102/6325124260_8b9966a714_b.jpg

Hate train on its way nice.

Heavy Metal
11-11-11, 10:23
Grant,

It was a pleasure to run thru the shoot-house with you. You were as smooth as butter, your training has paid off well.

C4IGrant
11-11-11, 10:26
Grant,

It was a pleasure to run thru the shoot-house with you. You were as smooth as butter, your training has paid off well.

Thanks Mike.


C4

Titleist
11-11-11, 10:40
I have only nice things to say about Grant, partially due to him having all my mags and ammo that has to get shipped back. :cool:

Thanks again for all your help, Grant. Great meeting so many M4C members at one time.

glock_forty5
11-11-11, 17:41
El Snatcho! He lives in the shoot house, or so I am told.

http://markem.iyobo.com/thumbnail/3MUKwZQ9HtZ.jpg

Titleist
11-11-11, 17:54
One of my favorite Larry-isms was on TD2:

"Bro, you've got some good shit on that rifle, Daniel Defense, Surefire suppressor, but seriously what is going on with that scope?" - In reference to a mini red dot sight.

"Well, I'm going to try running it for a whole year and see how it does."

"Okay, I could try being gay for a whole year too, but I don't need to do that to tell you it's just WRONG."

C4IGrant
11-11-11, 19:38
El Snatcho! He lives in the shoot house, or so I am told.

http://markem.iyobo.com/thumbnail/3MUKwZQ9HtZ.jpg

Uhm, WTF is that? Is your finger wearing a skirt made out of a coffee cup?? :no:


C4

Bowser
11-11-11, 22:12
Nice AAR.

Titleist
11-11-11, 22:29
Nice AAR.

Thank you, I have often been told I can be loquacious.

Zach
11-11-11, 23:00
Thanks for the great AAR T. Excellent pics.

supersix4
11-11-11, 23:21
One of my favorite Larry-isms was on TD2:

"Bro, you've got some good shit on that rifle, Daniel Defense, Surefire suppressor, but seriously what is going on with that scope?" - In reference to a mini red dot sight.

"Well, I'm going to try running it for a whole year and see how it does."

"Okay, I could try being gay for a whole year too, but I don't need to do that to tell you it's just WRONG."

Were you using the T1 in the pics on the first page? He did not like the T1?

Titleist
11-11-11, 23:27
Wasn't me, I was running a T1. Which as you read...IS the sight Larry thinks the world of.

supersix4
11-11-11, 23:50
Wasn't me, I was running a T1. Which as you read...IS the sight Larry thinks the world of.


Gotcha.

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 09:29
As many know, I am a room clearing training junkie. I have been doing it for many years dating back to Ft. Harmar's "barrel house" with Mr. Hackathorn. As a bottom feeding civy, I have logged more hours with Hackathorn and Vickers in shoot houses than 90% of the Military has. :eek:

In fact, I have done it so much that I am almost at peace when I enter a house. My comfort level actually goes up and I know that I am going to own this bitch.

So what could I learn by attending ANOTHER HD class? Plenty. Before I get into what I learned, let's cover (for those that have never done this stuff) the three basic types of room clearing.

First, there is DEFENSIVE room clearing. This is typically a one man operation with slow movements, pieing every corner and taking your time.

Second is OFFENSIVE room clearing. This is typically done with 2-6 man teams. Fast movements, bursting into rooms. Speed, power, surprise are what you are after here.

Third is HYBRID room clearing. This is commonly done with 2-6 man teams. This type of room clearing offers speed and violence, but also slow, deliberate movements (like pieing doorways and such).

Prior to this class, I lived in a black and white world. One man room clearing meant slow and methodical. Two, four or six man room clearing meant full on speed. No pieing corners or being cautious. There was no middle ground for me.

Mid way through the class, I was talking to one of the AI's helping LAV out with the class about what they do. As the conversation went one, the guy said something that pinged my radar. "What is in that room or building that is worth your life? Once we figure out that there is a bad guy spraying Ak47 rounds, why would we step foot into it? It certainly isn't worth one of our lives."

Hmm. So as a civy, what would make me clear my house? Are any of the "things" in my house worth dying for? Nope. How bout my family? Someone is doing harm to my child and I need to bring the "Hate Train" in? Yep sure do.

Tactics/Mindset change. With the above said and confirmed in my head, how do I now do 2 man clears? This is offensive right? Speed, aggression, violence of action! Well, since my family is not involved, why do I have to go blindly into rooms? Wouldn't it be better if when I open that door, that I pie at least half the room off first and then go in? Uh, ya!

Concept/Theory. So we know that in 2 man entries, the first man commonly moves faster than the second man as there is a delay between when the first guy moves and the second guy realizes that the first guy has moved (even worse in the dark). That lag between when the first guy goes to his corner and the second guy covers his backside can be SUBSTANTIAL. This is why (according to our AI), that if the first guy gets shot, there is a 90% chance that the second guy is going down as well. Well that sucks.

So how to fix the above issue? With the hybrid approach. First man opens door and pies 45% of the room (quickly). In the event that contact is made, first man fires INTO the room and then moves to his known and the second man button hooks. If no bad guy is found, then first man goes to his UNKNOWN (button hooks). Why? Two reasons for this. First is that you have seen about 45% of the room and have not found anyone to shoot. So the odds are that if they are in there, they are in the opposite corner. The second reason is that button hooking is a slower entry process and this gives the number two man more time to catch up to you moving into the room (and protecting your backside).


In closing, I would like to take the time to thank the AI's (which cannot be named) for all their help. This was a fantastic class that you really couldn't have paid for (even if you wanted to) as the crew that helped out is not for hire. This industry is about personal connections with people and LAV has some of the best connections in the world. So that means that YOU the student get the best training and info available.

Special thanks to the students in the class. All were switched on, eager to learn and apply themselves. There were no "that guy" at this class and I thank you for that. Last, but not least, thanks to GGT for putting together another GREAT CLASS!



C4

Mr. Smith
11-12-11, 10:07
Nice thought on the class Grant.
In class it is not about what we know it is about what we don't know.
Good to see you in class bro.

Ironman8
11-12-11, 10:32
Good info there Grant. Fills in some "gaps" for me in 2+ man entry techniques. After the class you can definitely see how much slower you need to go if you are solo...way too many angles that can bite you in the ass if you "outrun your headlights".

Just one question though, can you explain why (as the #1 man in a 2+ man entry) you would go to your KNOWN after firing at a BG into the room that you just opened the door to? I understand why you would go to the UNKNOWN by buttonhooking after looking at the 45 degree part of the room you CAN see, BUT I would think that even after pumping a few rounds into a BG (at least slowing him down a little), then you would still want to buttonhook into your UNKNOWN since you have lost your "element of surprise" into that room, and anyone with a gun inside the room, at that point, will have it trained on the doorway. Being that there is a "lag" between #1 and #2, I would think that that would be the BEST time to buttonhook? Am I off here, or am I just "less right"?

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 11:30
Good info there Grant. Fills in some "gaps" for me in 2+ man entry techniques. After the class you can definitely see how much slower you need to go if you are solo...way too many angles that can bite you in the ass if you "outrun your headlights".

Just one question though, can you explain why (as the #1 man in a 2+ man entry) you would go to your KNOWN after firing at a BG into the room that you just opened the door to? I understand why you would go to the UNKNOWN by buttonhooking after looking at the 45 degree part of the room you CAN see, BUT I would think that even after pumping a few rounds into a BG (at least slowing him down a little), then you would still want to buttonhook into your UNKNOWN since you have lost your "element of surprise" into that room, and anyone with a gun inside the room, at that point, will have it trained on the doorway. Being that there is a "lag" between #1 and #2, I would think that that would be the BEST time to buttonhook? Am I off here, or am I just "less right"?


Once you shoot a guy, he is yours and you need to make sure that he is no longer a threat.


C4

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 11:38
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Barry.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Barry1.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Barry3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01017.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01030.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01031.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01042.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01046.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01049.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01050.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01056.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01062.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01067.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01075.jpg

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 11:42
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01077.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01078.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01080.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01083.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01089.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01093.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01098.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01099.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01100.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01103.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01107.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01108.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01113.jpg

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 11:44
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/JOE4.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Joe.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Joe1.jpg

SUPRISE COCK FAG!
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Joe2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Joe3.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/Joe5.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/barry2.jpg

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/bob.jpg

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 11:47
As I have said many times on this forum, I am no longer impressed by how well people shoot on the square range. Show me how well you navigate, make decisions, ID threats and shoot on the move in a shoot house.

Below is a target that was missed at less than 10ft.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/M4C/Vickers_HD2/DSC01106.jpg




C4

Mr. Smith
11-12-11, 12:01
Nice pics bro.

Ironman8
11-12-11, 12:03
Once you shoot a guy, he is yours and you need to make sure that he is no longer a threat.


C4

Gotcha. Had a feeling you were going to say that...that makes sense too :D

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 12:08
Nice pics bro.

Thanks much.


C4

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 12:09
Gotcha. Had a feeling you were going to say that...that makes sense too :D

Two words for you; SECURITY ROUND! :ph34r:



C4

glock_forty5
11-12-11, 15:57
First, there is DEFENSIVE room clearing. This is typically a one man operation with slow movements, pieing every corner and taking your time.

Second is OFFENSIVE room clearing. This is typically done with 2-6 man teams. Fast movements, bursting into rooms. Speed, power, surprise are what you are after here.

Third is HYBRID room clearing. This is commonly done with 2-6 man teams. This type of room clearing offers speed and violence, but also slow, deliberate movements (like pieing doorways and such).

Concept/Theory. So we know that in 2 man entries, the first man commonly moves faster than the second man as there is a delay between when the first guy moves and the second guy realizes that the first guy has moved (even worse in the dark). That lag between when the first guy goes to his corner and the second guy covers his backside can be SUBSTANTIAL. This is why (according to our AI), that if the first guy gets shot, there is a 90% chance that the second guy is going down as well. Well that sucks.

So how to fix the above issue? With the hybrid approach. First man opens door and pies 45% of the room (quickly). In the event that contact is made, first man fires INTO the room and then moves to his known and the second man button hooks. If no bad guy is found, then first man goes to his UNKNOWN (button hooks). Why? Two reasons for this. First is that you have seen about 45% of the room and have not found anyone to shoot. So the odds are that if they are in there, they are in the opposite corner. The second reason is that button hooking is a slower entry process and this gives the number two man more time to catch up to you moving into the room (and protecting your backside).

Thanks Grant. That cleared up somethings for me. This was my first time in a shoot house and I was drinking from the fire hose. The "demo" at the end that "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man" did was nothing like we were taught (they went through that house like monkeys in tennis shoes). They did the offensive clear where we did defensive and hybrid (the demo was one of the highlights of the class). This is still sinking in for me.

JT

Titleist
11-12-11, 16:18
Thanks Grant. That cleared up somethings for me. This was my first time in a shoot house and I was drinking from the fire hose. The "demo" at the end that "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man" did was nothing like we were taught (they went through that house like monkeys in tennis shoes). They did the offensive clear where we did defensive and hybrid (the demo was one of the highlights of the class). This is still sinking in for me.

JT

Michael from Raven Concealment kept nudging me, "hey...go ask 'em...come on."

"Okay fine..."

"Hey M4Guru, would you and our 'friend' over there mind doing a clear at your speed?...if we have time, puhlease...."

"Yeah that shouldn't be an issue."

5 minutes before we have to clean up they do the run. "BATATATATATATATATATATATATATA!"

After the smoke cleared, "what the **** just happened?!"

MAP
11-12-11, 17:54
Mid way through the class, I was talking to one of the AI's helping LAV out with the class about what they do. As the conversation went one, the guy said something that pinged my radar. "What is in that room or building that is worth your life? Once we figure out that there is a bad guy spraying Ak47 rounds, why would we step foot into it? It certainly isn't worth one of our lives."

C4

Not asking that question, and finding the correct answer, has gotten numerous Police Officers killed. I am aware of two (2) situation where at least three (3) LEOs lost their lives because they reached the wrong conclusion.

Mike

Heavy Metal
11-12-11, 18:07
Thanks Grant. That cleared up somethings for me. This was my first time in a shoot house and I was drinking from the fire hose. The "demo" at the end that "Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man" did was nothing like we were taught (they went through that house like monkeys in tennis shoes). They did the offensive clear where we did defensive and hybrid (the demo was one of the highlights of the class). This is still sinking in for me.

JT

As I mentioned elsewhere, those two went thru it like shit thru a goose! Lightining fast!

C4IGrant
11-12-11, 19:22
Not asking that question, and finding the correct answer, has gotten numerous Police Officers killed. I am aware of two (2) situation where at least three (3) LEOs lost their lives because they reached the wrong conclusion.

Mike

Amen brother. Maybe more LE will read this and apply it.




C4

Army Chief
11-12-11, 20:40
Great thread -- and one that captures the soul of this site particularly well. Granted, not everyone is ready for this level of training (I'm not, despite three decades in uniform), and fewer still even have access to facilities where it could be effectively rehearsed, but competence remains our watchword.

The interesting thing to me is that, just about the time you start thinking that you are comfortable with your flat range skills, something like a shoot house (or even shooting on the move) gives you cause to reevaluate everything. We all aspire to be students of the art, but graduate-level classes like this one seem to give all concerned plenty of room to up their game.

AC

Ironman8
11-12-11, 21:32
Great thread -- and one that captures the soul of this site particularly well. Granted, not everyone is ready for this level of training (I'm not, despite three decades in uniform), and fewer still even have access to facilities where it could be effectively rehearsed, but competence remains our watchword.

The interesting thing to me is that, just about the time you start thinking that you are comfortable with your flat range skills, something like a shoot house (or even shooting on the move) gives you cause to reevaluate everything. We all aspire to be students of the art, but graduate-level classes like this one seem to give all concerned plenty of room to up their game.

AC

I don't know you from Adam, but I have a feeling you would be just fine. I was the youngest and probably the least experienced shooter there and didn't know how I would stack up, but at the end, I felt I "hung in there" pretty well.....but then again, maybe somebody needs to slap me upside the head with a reality check :D

dirt_diver
11-13-11, 00:09
Wow! What an awesome AAR for what sounds like was an outstanding class.
Thanks all for the great info and insights.

d90king
11-13-11, 08:18
Vickers Home Defense USTC Moyock NC

GEAR:

Noveske 14.5 VTAC Aim-Mother-F'ing- POINT T1 - X300 - KAC BUIS - Wilson TTU - Padded VCAS- SOPMOD

Glock 19 RTF2 - Ameriglo GL433 sights - Vickers Slide Stop - Vickers Mag Release - X300

VTAC Brokos belt- VTAC Cobra belt - Raven Phantom - Raven Phantom X300 - Raven double pistol pouch - Raven double Pmag pouch - Raven Multitasker 2 pouch - Specter dump pouch - BFG TKN

BFG LMAC - MSA Soft backers - Ceradyne level IV plates - BFG Ten Speed triple mag pouches.

LAV was our primary instructor and M4GURU/Danger Close was the primary AI. We also had two others helping with the instruction but they shall remain nameless and faceless. I will touch on this later in the AAR.

As Titliest mentioned this was a class that I had on the books for almost a year and one that I was really looking forward to as a highlight to close out my 2011 training schedule. It is an area of training that I was lacking in and I was really looking forward to drinking from the fire-hose with LAV.

I have been very fortunate that I have trained with LAV a good bit and he has helped shape me into the shooter that I am today over the last 4 years of training with him. For that I owe him a great deal of gratitude and it is a testament to the instruction that you receive when you dedicate yourself to training with him. Good enough doesn't cut it with him as many who have trained with him will attest. Solid fundamentals and accuracy are a must and he accepts nothing less out of you.

He is an accuracy Nazi and makes no bones about it. That focus on accuracy is what allows you to prevail in a gunfight and forces you to constantly stay dialed in. Out of the black is simply not acceptable and is a reason for shame. If you can't keep them in the black in a flat range setting you will certainly not be able to hit your mark when SHTF.

TD 1

I will try not to overlap the great job that Titliest did with his AAR but in the end I will probably end up touching on a lot of the same things that he touched on.

TD1 was dedicated to handgun only so anything talked about on TD1 is referring to handgun work.

We started TD 1 with an evaluation of where the shooters in the class were skill wise at 15 yds shooting 10 round slow fire strings on B8's which for the most part are LAV's standard target for any course of fire. Once again I will mention that if it's out of the black it's a miss and a reason for shame.

I will say right from the start that the level of shooters in this class was very high and the targets reflected that skill set. The student body consisted of LE, MIL, REI's and average joes who take their training very seriously and who had taken multiple classes prior to this class.

I want to take a minute and talk about the importance of this element in a class of this nature. When you have an advanced level class like this if the class has shooters that shouldn't be taking this level of class it's a real drag on the whole class because that means that LAV must take the time to get shooters squared away, which takes time away from the subject matter at hand, which SUCKS! We were very fortunate that this was not the case in this class and we moved through Larry's standard "tune ups" rather quickly as the quality of students allowed it. This in turn means we got to focus on what we came for, and that was learning to clear a structure and the TTP's that are required to do so safely and effectively. I can't stress enough how great it was to be able to jump into that portion of the class rather than having to do ball and dummy, front sight casing/penny and other trademark LAV cures for shitty accuracy. For those who attended THANK YOU for having your shit together, it really helped move the class along and allowed us to get to the meat rather quickly and spend more time in the shoot-houses.

After doing pistol work from 5-20 yds we brought out the barricades to work on proper utilization of cover/concealment. This involved the following shooting positions; standing, crouching, kneeling and then standing again. This was run in four person courses of fire, and there was a constant flow of shooters moving through the barricades until everyone had the opportunity to run it several times. We ran it from right to left and then from left to right on our second staging. Once agin this wasn't the student bodies first rodeo and we were able to move through this in an efficient manner that was not too time consuming. It simply allowed us to get a few reps in from shooting positions that we would be using for the the remainder of the day as we worked in the shoot-house.

This took us to an early lunch and concluded our flat range work for the day.

TD1 Handgun clearing:

After lunch we then moved onto T1 Shoot-house which was a two story structure with the ability to adjust for low-light work. We separated into two teams one who worked with LAV one on one and the other team worked with Danger Close one on one.

The first run was what I would consider a relatively simple clear and was a good way to ease into clearing without being overwhelmed with complex problems to deal with. It was great for building confidence for future clearings that would become more complex each time it was setup after. Now when I say simple... There really is no "simple" way of clearing as it requires complete focus on the task at hand and the ability to think on your feet while problem solving. I just mean that we weren't thrown into the deep end (stairs, obstacles, low-light, landings etc) on our first run.

We focused on the proper ways of problem solving such as how to work doors, door ways, maximizing the space we had to work with, footwork, proper ready positions and making certain that the space we were working was completely cleared before moving on. I would say that one of the most important factors in clearing solo is SLOWING DOWN. It is not a race, it is a marathon...

As the day progressed we would have 4-5 runs through various setups and each time LAV and DC would up the level of difficulty including low light runs which we're great. After each of our runs LAV and DC would discuss what we did, how we did it and would point out ways to improve our technique. Each time through gave us an additional building block which allowed us to improve our technique for future runs through the houses.

The lowlight feature of T1 (dark) was great to use and it is an area that working on is often difficult to find on your own but an area that is vital to ones training. DC did a great job of setting up the low light scenario and in reinforcing the proper utilization of your light in these settings. ND's with your WML are a bad thing and something that should be avoided at all cost whenever possible.

We wrapped up TD 1 with a discussion of the days events and called it a day.


TD 2

TD 2 consisted of carbine work and a carbine was our primary weapon for the day so all discussion below is focused on carbine.

The day started with rifle fundamentals as they relate to clearing structures. We would focus on offset, ready positions, shoulder transitions and barricade work.

The barricade work was done the same way as on TD 1 with 4 shooting positions. Using a carbine instead of a handgun brought additional challenges to the forefront as we had offset to focus on and transitions. Yes, I chuck wood like a woodchuck can chuck... Offset, offset, offset... Did I mention offset? I left my mark on the barricade because I neglected that little factor... It only takes once for that to happen to get your head back where it needs to be...

Transitions have been a weakness of mine because of my eye positioning in the past and in the past I have simply shot strong hand exposing a bit more of myself than is ideal especially in a Shoot-house setting. After trying several new methods and spending a bit of time with Grant I was able to come up with a rifle position that worked for me and I am now able to shoot both eyes open from my OSH (thanks Grant) and for that I am thankful. I still have some work to do but now have a way that works for ME! I also learned a lesson in cutting slings down.... DON'T DO IT until you make sure you are leaving enough room to add additional kit like .... ARMOR! I had cut my slings a little short which was a PITA but lesson learned and I made a few adjustments and rocked on.

After our brief flat range work we broke for lunch and then went directly to the shoot houses to work on clearing with carbines. This is an area that SBR's shine and I was disappointed that I didn't have my MK18's ready for this class... Next years class will be different. That said, I learned some ways of shortening the rifle that were very effective and mitigated working with a 14.5.

Working with carbines presents two additional areas that need focus, first is offset and the other is constantly working your safety selector. Getting a "click" once is generally the only reminder that you need to etch that priority into your brain. Offset is something that you have to consistently burn into your programming. If you want to hit your "switch" the ocular cavity that means you must use the hairline or brim of a hat etc so that your hits fall where you want them. This is something that takes constant work until it becomes second nature especially when you are taking head shots. When we were not running B8's I was only taking head shots so I got to focus on this a lot and I was pleased with my results.

On TD 2 we got to use two shoot-houses T1 and T11 both of which had their unique challenges. Time was spent evenly between the two with Larry running T11 with another instructor and DC running T1 with another instructor (I will touch on the additional instructors shortly) the bottom line is that nothing you did or did not do went unnoticed with two sets of eyes on. This was incredibly valuable and shows the caliber of instructor that Larry is. These extra sets of eyes were not just some guys, they were guys that CQB is real life and who know there stuff to put it mildly. Their professionalism was outstanding and they had a great way of pointing out anything and everything that you had just done or hadn't done... I wrapped up my shooting for TD 2 down at T11. We met back up as a group at T1 for a short brief, called it a day and made plans for Cracker Barrel.

TD 3

TD 3 we were able to get right into the task at hand of working the shoot houses and no flat range work was done on TD 3.

Once again we were broken into two groups one group stayed at T1 and the other group went to T11. In the morning T1 was manned by DC and the "guest" and T11 was manned by LAV and the other "guest". I started the morning with DC and my first run was a low light run. It was really nice to get some low light work in as I mentioned before, its pretty damn hard to find places to do low light training, let alone in a shoot house. We got several runs in before lunch. After lunch we switched it up and LAV came up to T1 and DC moved to T11. We were then given the option to go to T11 and do two man clears or stay at T 1 with Larry doing single man clears. I will also mention that for TD 3 I chose to run handgun for all but two runs as a handgun is my primary weapon. I chose to stay with Larry at T1 and continue to focus on my primary weapon and single man work. It was very tempting to go down and have some fun doing two man work with DC but I resisted the temptation and focused on what for me is closer to MY reality. Now next year I'm going to have some fun damnit! I just thought it would be best to focus my energy in my first HD / CQB class on those areas that I would be more likely to face in MY real world.

By staying with Larry at T 1 I ended up getting a few extra runs in because most of the shooters went down with DC to T11. Larry was able to set up some runs that had us moving down steps which was a nice bonus as the challenges that you face with stairs are magnified when going down them because your field of view is blocked in most cases and it presented new challenges to overcome.

The other nice thing about staying up at T1 was that it gave me a chance to have some fun on the steel range and I had a blast with it and made the most of my time at one of the finest shooting facilities in the world.

I have cut this AAR in half after thinking about it... I cut out all of the " tactics " learned because I didn't want those out on the net. I think its best to learn those TTP's while taking a class and not trying to glean them from AAR's. I also tried to cut out as much overlap as I could with Titliest AAR so it wouldn't be to repetitive for you readers. The end result is that it doesn't read as well as I would like but I think my training experience gets through...

Before closing I want to talk a little about the cadre that was present for this class. The cadre that was present at this class was truly a once in a lifetime training experience. All four of the instructors there were what you would call THE REAL DEAL, these guys are at the top of the food chain and their instruction showed why they are at the top of the food chain. The knowledge that they shared was invaluable and it is a true reflection on Larry and his priority to bringing the very highest level of instruction to his students. Many instructors don't want their thunder stolen or shared with others. With Larry it's the opposite, he welcomed input from the others after every single run, which meant that you were lucky enough to have two sets of very dialed in eyes on you almost the entire time. This is something that cannot be taken for granted. I firmly believe that this was a once in a LIFETIME opportunity of training with the best of the best and for that I am very thankful.

I also want to take a minute and single out DC. I have known DC online for a number of years and even online you pick up pretty quickly that the guy has his shit together but having a chance to do some training with him in person you walk away with a much greater appreciation for what he brings to the table. He not only is a great shooter but he is also a hell of a guy, and one hell of an instructor. I left USTC a better shooter and thinker because of DC and for that I am grateful. To DC THANK YOU for an outstanding job on teaching. There are a lot of great shooters, but as many know being a great shooter does not automatically translate into being a great teacher. DC is both.

To my fellow classmates THANK YOU for having your shit together and making this an outstanding class and allowing it to move at a pace I was hoping for.

My primary take always that I'm willing to post on the net :

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Continue to program your POA so that it is second nature and requires no thought when using a carbine in a CQB/ECQB scenario.
Before you cut a sling or three lol make sure you account for kit you might add in the future.
Very small equipment changes can make a big difference in the performance of equipment. Something as simple as moving your sling attachment to the opposite side of your stock pays big dividends when doing transitions (thanks Tom)!

There are several others but those will remain between myself and my classmates.

We were taught some great stuff because we were students and as Larry said its for US and not the net...

This was an outstanding class and it was great to meet a lot of new faces and and train with several LAV regulars. This class is already on my schedule for next year. I might even make it a six day event next year!!!!!!

30 cal slut
11-13-11, 09:31
Thanks to Grant for the additional pictures and Patrick for the above AAR. Ton of information to process.

Titleist
11-13-11, 21:47
AC, thank you, as great as it was documenting this class as a student, the critical component (was as Patrick (D90king) said) was the students who made up this class. Patrick nailed it, the amount of fundamentals we had to re-hash was only 90 minutes or less. It was almost a checklist that Larry checked off quickly, "Okay well, we're done, now the fun stuff!"

As I was surprised we got into the house on day 1. Based on the AAR from last year I wasn't expecting to get in to the house till Day 2. Again, these classes succeed or fail by the caliber of the students. Trust me, the most painful thing on Day 1 of the Magpul Classes we host is zeroing. Just simple things like trigger control can either make for a 10 minute process, or a one hour session of pulling teeth.

I think you'd do fine in a class like this. I never worry about the guy who shows up and says, "I'm unsure of how good I am, but I'm willing to learn." Those guys don't know what they don't know. I consider myself that way, the minute I get cocky is the minute I stop being willing to learn. We did not have any THAT GUYS in class. Everyone was humorous, friendly, and most of all humble. This was not a class, as someone mentioned, with team drills or competition. There was no prize for least amount of shots fired or fastest run. This was a binary class, either you succeeded in the material, or you failed. That's how LAV put it in terms of the task we were learning.

As such no egos were involved. I'm incredibly grateful to have been exposed to CQB training via such great instructors like LAV, Jon, and our guests. It was truly an honor, and one I was really grateful of to be learning with all of my fellow classmates.


Great thread -- and one that captures the soul of this site particularly well. Granted, not everyone is ready for this level of training (I'm not, despite three decades in uniform), and fewer still even have access to facilities where it could be effectively rehearsed, but competence remains our watchword.

The interesting thing to me is that, just about the time you start thinking that you are comfortable with your flat range skills, something like a shoot house (or even shooting on the move) gives you cause to reevaluate everything. We all aspire to be students of the art, but graduate-level classes like this one seem to give all concerned plenty of room to up their game.

AC

supersix4
11-13-11, 21:59
Titleist, in your opinion, is the pistol the preferred weapon for the shoothouse? If so can you elaborate? Is the trade off in lethality worth it versus the rifle?

Thank you for the detailed AAR

Titleist
11-13-11, 22:37
Titleist, in your opinion, is the pistol the preferred weapon for the shoothouse? If so can you elaborate? Is the trade off in lethality worth it versus the rifle?

Thank you for the detailed AAR

Dude, that's a question that's way...WAAAAAY out of my lane to answer.

All I can say is that frankly my defensive weapon is the suppressed 5.56 SBR that's between my bed-stand and the door. Why? Because I live in an apartment with a huge glass floor to ceiling windows, but 3 cement walls and cement ceilings. So frankly my backstop is 1 foot thick backstops.

However in the class M4Guru was quick to point out when we were navigating stairs that "sometimes a carbine isn't the best tool for the job." There's situations where a handgun is a better choice due to being able to maneuver in tight spaces.

Arguing pro's and con's isn't really something I can do without stepping on my dick. Someone a lot smarter than I in these matters could probably speak to the advantages/disadvantages.

supersix4
11-14-11, 00:11
Dude, that's a question that's way...WAAAAAY out of my lane to answer.

It's OK, I asked for your opinion. :D


However in the class M4Guru was quick to point out when we were navigating stairs that "sometimes a carbine isn't the best tool for the job." There's situations where a handgun is a better choice due to being able to maneuver in tight spaces.

Hmmm.... probably a clue

Arguing pro's and con's isn't really something I can do without stepping on my dick. Someone a lot smarter than I in these matters could probably speak to the advantages/disadvantages.
I wouldn't mind the discussion from you folks who took the class that can pull from your recent experiences.




reply in red

C4IGrant
11-14-11, 07:35
SuperSix, talking with Ken Hackathorn about this subject, he has stated to me that the pistol is the best choice SIMPLY for the reason of maneuverability. There is a lot of truth to this.

It is most likely the weapon you will have on you when you need to clear a room or building.

With the above said, I am a fan of a 10.3 SBR. The main reason is because I like having superior fire power. Most bad guys will be using a pistol. The AR makes it an unfair fight (which I am a fan of).

At the class I ran my AR, pistol and a MP5. This was the first time I had gotten to run a MP5 type weapon in a shoot house. IMHO, this weapon owns that environment and would now say that it is the best choice.




C4

M4Guru
11-14-11, 08:28
I will always choose a rifle over a handgun when I have to put rounds on target, but simply put sometimes you work in confines that make even an SBR less than optimal.

I would say always use the biggest gun you can without putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Mr. Smith
11-14-11, 08:39
I will always choose a rifle over a handgun when I have to put rounds on target, but simply put sometimes you work in confines that make even an SBR less than optimal.

I would say always use the biggest gun you can without putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I love the big guns, but I am a big man and the handgun helps me in small spots.
In the house everything is little to me, and every house I go in is the same way.
Sometimes it just doesn't pay to be a big dude, but God gave me the cards ... I just play the hand.

SHIVAN
11-14-11, 08:55
So far, in my very limited house clearing, I prefer the 10" SBR, with stock collapsed. I'm a decent shot, but when those hallways open up to full length, I always feel more confident with a RDS and a rifle round.

I can imagine there are times, as others have said, where you have to sling the SBR, and pull the pistol because you simply can't move to cover the areas -- but I haven't run into it in my very brief experience.

30 cal slut
11-14-11, 09:22
SuperSix, talking with Ken Hackathorn about this subject, he has stated to me that the pistol is the best choice SIMPLY for the reason of maneuverability. There is a lot of truth to this.

It is most likely the weapon you will have on you when you need to clear a room or building.

With the above said, I am a fan of a 10.3 SBR. The main reason is because I like having superior fire power. Most bad guys will be using a pistol. The AR makes it an unfair fight (which I am a fan of).

At the class I ran my AR, pistol and a MP5. This was the first time I had gotten to run a MP5 type weapon in a shoot house. IMHO, this weapon owns that environment and would now say that it is the best choice.

C4

Ken has also mentioned that the carbine shines on the long shot. This is probably more applicable to LEO, who might be clearing a structure that might be 100+ yards long (e.g., your average Walmart store). But even in the home, the carbine is easier to shoot than the pistol.

In low light, the carbine also has an advantage over the pistol, with rail-mounted light and red dot optic.

C4IGrant
11-14-11, 09:45
Ken has also mentioned that the carbine shines on the long shot. This is probably more applicable to LEO, who might be clearing a structure that might be 100+ yards long (e.g., your average Walmart store). But even in the home, the carbine is easier to shoot than the pistol.

In low light, the carbine also has an advantage over the pistol, with rail-mounted light and red dot optic.

Sure. Let's face the fact that many don't own a carbine or have it available to them.

Operating in tight, confined spaces really causes problems with a 16" AR (which is what most people are going to have available to them). This was the main point of his comments I think.


C4

30 cal slut
11-14-11, 10:27
Sure thing, Grant. My next project is to SBR a blaster and get a more compact can for it. I learned that telegraphing your presence with a 16 in bbl is fairly easy to do in confined spaces - it takes extra effort to avoid that.

Titleist
11-14-11, 10:32
Even my 11.5" SBR with a suppressor was huge in those hallways.

subzero
11-14-11, 10:42
Even my 11.5" SBR with a suppressor was huge in those hallways.

That thought got me to start thinking if I am going to have a dedicated FISHing gun in a rifle caliber, it might as well be a 7.5" with a smallish can.

What say our learned elite? Is there a valid place for an AR that small in the world or is it too much of a compromise?

Titleist
11-14-11, 10:45
That thought got me to start thinking if I am going to have a dedicated FISHing gun in a rifle caliber, it might as well be a 7.5" with a smallish can.

What say our learned elite? Is there a valid place for an AR that small in the world or is it too much of a compromise?

There was a thread where Josh (Zushwa) talked about his 7.5" rig, and the value of it. Honestly I live in a 1 bedroom apartment. So frankly my room clearing will amount to ONE BIG ASS room. If I'm clearing hallways then I have bigger issues.

Ironman8
11-14-11, 11:11
That thought got me to start thinking if I am going to have a dedicated FISHing gun in a rifle caliber, it might as well be a 7.5" with a smallish can.

What say our learned elite? Is there a valid place for an AR that small in the world or is it too much of a compromise?

Ammo selection (such as BH 50gr TSX) becomes critical with a bbl that short, but I def see an application for it...such as maybe vehicle tactics. I think you will be fine with and should start with a 10.5" SBR and can.

I ran through the shoothouse with my pinned (unsuppressed) 14.5" AR and felt fine. With Titleists' 11.5" SBR and can, the OAL of the barrel is about 17.5 as opposed to my 16". Every inch will make a difference.

WillC
11-14-11, 14:41
It would be interesting to see what the testing results would be with the addition of a can on a 7.5" as the additional velocity that is added with them may put it into a reasonable terminal velocity category, especially with some of the recently developed SBR specific ammunition in CQB environment/distances.
Notable are some of the European SOF rifles with the barrel sizes being close to the 7.5".

And... great AAR's, you guys definitely set a pretty high bar IRT civilian classes. It is obvious to me that Larry's no-nonsense, realistic approach to training has some of the finest of all backgrounds seeking out and attending his training.

Will

Mr. Smith
11-14-11, 15:49
It would be interesting to see what the testing results would be with the addition of a can on a 7.5" as the additional velocity that is added with them may put it into a reasonable terminal velocity category, especially with some of the recently developed SBR specific ammunition in CQB environment/distances.
Notable are some of the European SOF rifles with the barrel sizes being close to the 7.5".

And... great AAR's, you guys definitely set a pretty high bar IRT civilian classes. It is obvious to me that Larry's no-nonsense, realistic approach to training has some of the finest of all backgrounds seeking out and attending his training.

Will

Hello. Will be nice to hear you on this matter.

Fom my prospective, building guns for years and years, the 7.5 inch guns are less than reliable.

At the distance of engagement you are in, reliability is #1 and DI guns don't like to run in those short barrel lengths.

WillC
11-14-11, 16:43
Hello. Will be nice to hear you on this matter.

Fom my prospective, building guns for years and years, the 7.5 inch guns are less than reliable.

At the distance of engagement you are in, reliability is #1 and DI guns don't like to run in those short barrel lengths.

RGR, I am sure you and your experience are 100&% correct. Perhaps my specifically mentioning the 7.5" length didn't help the intent of my post. HK has two guns that I am aware of that have been developed and fielded at the request of SOF, the G36C and 416C both have 9" barrels, both of which are piston. Also worth mentioning is the SCAR PDW, not sure how much testing has been done for reliability in that case, and all mentioned above are piston.

I am not an engineer, and I am aware that the non-suppressed rifles in length of less than 10.3" have proven to be terminally anemic and less than reliable, but with a gun that is designed to be run suppressed, I am guessing that it could be tuned like Grant has done for his dedicated suppressed rifle to increase reliability.

To rephrase what I was saying above,
for someone who has the means, it would be "interesting" to see what the performance of a sub 10.3" dedicated suppressed rifle would do with some of the new generation of SBR designed ammunition.

I remember when the 10.3" was considered crazy to use for the 5.56 for all the above listed reasons, but now it is common place.

Will

Mr. Smith
11-14-11, 16:52
RGR, I am sure you and your experience are 100&% correct. Perhaps my specifically mentioning the 7.5" length didn't help the intent of my post. HK has two guns that I am aware of that have been developed and fielded at the request of SOF, the G36C and 416C both have 9" barrels, both of which are piston. Also worth mentioning is the SCAR PDW, not sure how much testing has been done for reliability in that case, and all mentioned above are piston.

I am not an engineer, and I am aware that the non-suppressed rifles in length of less than 10.3" have proven to be terminally anemic and less than reliable, but with a gun that is designed to be run suppressed, I am guessing that it could be tuned like Grant has done for his dedicated suppressed rifle to increase reliability.

To rephrase what I was saying above,
for someone who has the means, it would be "interesting" to see what the performance of a sub 10.3" dedicated suppressed rifle would do with some of the new generation of SBR designed ammunition.

Will

Thanks Will

I hope I did not step on your towes I did not mean to if I did.

WillC
11-14-11, 17:22
No worries, and I tend to have that problem with online discussion, I guess I don't always make my thoughts 100% clear.

And sorry for the Hijack ... now back onto topic.

Larry rocks.

HawaiianBob
11-14-11, 18:50
First of all thank you to everyone involved with this class in every capacity from instructor to students to everything else in between. Great AAR and great pictures. It was nice to have a class where everyone hung in there and brought it. It made things move at a good pace and we got to drink more of the water from the fire hose. The fire hose was unusually HUGE in this class.

I kinda wish we had more social time after the day was done but 3 days of class was a lot to digest and get ready for the next day.

For my part it was nice to see that I didnt forget what I have learned in the past and with only a few minor tweeks from class things will be better. Like any other skill set practice practice practice helps a TON.

I think we may get a few airsofts to run through the house so we dont demolish the china...maybe just crack the cabinet.

Im still fighting the glock but I think i will be able to get my skill level close to how I handle a 1911.

My soft armor in conjunction with my hard plates were a bit heavy but not horrible. The plates did force me to angle my body a little more than I liked but was very doable.

It looked like a tactical pants convention with offerings from all the major tactical players. It was very interesting to see all the TAD, CRYE, Raven concealment, Blade Tech, Noveske, AAC, etc etc etc etc etc out there being run.

If you have a chance to attend a class like this in the future dont hesitate. It was well worth the time, effort, and expense.

ps...did anyone come up with an extra lula pistol mag loader mine didnt make it home lol ;)

M4Guru
11-14-11, 18:58
Yep, a pistol LULA made it's way into the back of my truck off of the loading table. PM me an addy and ill get it back to you

HawaiianBob
11-14-11, 19:29
Sweet. PM sent. Thanks a bunch :)

SHIVAN
11-14-11, 21:59
I bet the Honey Badger project using the 300 Blackout starts to make sense when given a 10" AR versus an "MP5 size" AR in those tight hallways, right guys? :D

Titleist
11-14-11, 22:10
Next year I want a 300BLK rig for that reason. IF...they make frangible rounds. :D

HawaiianBob
11-14-11, 22:20
NAAAA my 14.5 didn't make me feel like I was in a squeeze...Although... I'm little... My short gun looks like a regular sized rifle while it looks tiny on Mr. Smith :D yukyukyuk

Mr. Smith
11-15-11, 07:11
NAAAA my 14.5 didn't make me feel like I was in a squeeze...Although... I'm little... My short gun looks like a regular sized rifle while it looks tiny on Mr. Smith :D yukyukyuk

I can't help it Bob.
It dose make a big difference in the way we all deal with things.

HawaiianBob
11-15-11, 12:04
I can't help it Bob.
It dose make a big difference in the way we all deal with things.

...I still don't know what would be better... Having starfish go first and be my big bullet sponge or I go first so starfish can fire over my shoulder :p

Mr. Smith
11-15-11, 13:34
...I still don't know what would be better... Having starfish go first and be my big bullet sponge or I go first so starfish can fire over my shoulder :p

Starfish first let him drive the train you bring the hate.

VA_Dinger
11-15-11, 13:41
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Vickers Tactical
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/logo.jpg

Grey Group Training:
www.greygrouptraining.com

An absolutely amazing class. No doubt an incredible experience for our students. It was nice to meet and train with you guys.

30 cal slut
11-15-11, 14:46
Next year I want a 300BLK rig for that reason. IF...they make frangible rounds. :D

Heh heh heh. I'm on the same wavelength. Like an 8" upper with a can, with 7.62 Barnes RRLP home brews.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/mle-tactical-bullets/mle-rrlp-bullets/

supersix4
11-15-11, 14:48
Thank you for the reply's to my question. M4 nailed it for me. Thank you again for clarifying.

There is a lot to chew on in this thread.

Titleist
11-15-11, 15:08
Heh heh heh. I'm on the same wavelength. Like an 8" upper with a can, with 7.62 Barnes RRLP home brews.

http://www.barnesbullets.com/products/mle-tactical-bullets/mle-rrlp-bullets/

The USTC placard said 5.56 only. I wonder if 300BLK is acceptable.

30 cal slut
11-15-11, 15:19
The USTC placard said 5.56 only. I wonder if 300BLK is acceptable.

ah, crap. oh well, guess you could test it beforehand on a portable bullet trap.

Titleist
11-15-11, 15:32
ah, crap. oh well, guess you could test it beforehand on a portable bullet trap.

Exactly. A 300BLK 9" setup would be awesome in that class. Even better...the AAC Honey Badger.

NCPatrolAR
11-15-11, 16:28
I'm thinking of trying a M1 Carbine the next time I'm in the houses up there.

mark5pt56
11-15-11, 20:12
The USTC placard said 5.56 only. I wonder if 300BLK is acceptable.

Not an official answer, but no. Don't go against range use requirements, otherwise you may find out how much a bullet trap or piece(s) of steel cost.

Titleist
11-15-11, 20:27
Not an official answer, but no. Don't go against range use requirements, otherwise you may find out how much a bullet trap or piece(s) of steel cost.

Damn, I hope with the surge in popularity of that round that things may EVENTUALLY change.

amac
11-15-11, 20:47
Damn fine AAR's. When I first saw the offering for this class, I knew I wanted in. After reading the AAR's, I'm not sure if my training is geared for room clearing. Was there anyone there that had not trained on room clearing? How tolerant of the need to catch up would/were the instructors/other shooters?

I'd like to begin preparing for next year's class. If the zombies haven't taken over by then. :D

Titleist
11-15-11, 20:59
I've done only a tiny bit of room clearing beforehand.

Not many in that class were used to CQB tactics. I'd say take a LAV class ahead of time just to understand what Larry teaches, why, and be able to hit his standards.

I'll be taking the class again next year just to apply what I learned in these 3 days again fresh.

Ironman8
11-15-11, 21:00
I've done only a tiny bit of room clearing beforehand.

Not many in that class were used to CQB tactics. I'd say take a LAV class ahead of time just to understand what Larry teaches, why, and be able to hit his standards.

I'll be taking the class again next year just to apply what I learned in these 3 days again fresh.

And when is this class scheduled for next year? Or is it not yet?

amac
11-15-11, 21:18
I've done only a tiny bit of room clearing beforehand.

Not many in that class were used to CQB tactics. I'd say take a LAV class ahead of time just to understand what Larry teaches, why, and be able to hit his standards.

I'll be taking the class again next year just to apply what I learned in these 3 days again fresh.

That's encouraging. I've been wanting to attend a LAV class and learn to shoot my 1911. I hear he knows a thing or two about that platform. :D I'll take your advice and get signed up. Thanks

Titleist
11-15-11, 21:34
And when is this class scheduled for next year? Or is it not yet?

Date isn't up yet. But I'll be there for sure.

SHIVAN
11-15-11, 21:41
Damn, I hope with the surge in popularity of that round that things may EVENTUALLY change.

Their steel would most certainly stop 300BLK frangible supersonic. I'm pretty sure subsonic 220gr from a 9" barrel, or shorter, would be less energy than a 9mm handgun round hitting it. I think the subsonic from a 16" barrel is less than a 9mm.

That being said, if the rules of the range say 5.56 frang only, then that's it.

Ironman8
11-15-11, 22:23
I pooled my notes with my buddy "twadsw01" and have compiled a condensed version of what we learned, both one and two man clears as well as some low-light. I am having Grant proofread it for me to make sure everything I put in there is correct...I'm sure he'll find something that needs improvement :D so thanks to those two guys for helping me out with this.

Once I have the "final copy", I want to offer these notes to anyone who attended the class who may want to keep them and continue your own training so that when we all get together again for this class next year, we can pick up where we left off ;)

Just PM me your email address and your name (and maybe something that will jar my memory to remember you :p) and I'll send em to you.

Also, if you didn't attend the class, please do not ask me for the notes. It wouldn't be the right way to repay all the hard work that Larry and the AI's put into the instruction, nor all the money that the class attendees paid to get that instruction.

Thanks guys.

m4fun
11-15-11, 23:22
Very Cool Ironman! Not just Larry and the AI's but thanks to Grant as well. PM inbound.

Ironman8
11-15-11, 23:59
Very Cool Ironman! Not just Larry and the AI's but thanks to Grant as well. PM inbound.

Agreed ;)

Irish
11-16-11, 02:44
Fantastic AAR and photos to match. Great info in this thread as well.

Watrdawg
11-16-11, 07:30
And when is this class scheduled for next year? Or is it not yet?

I sent Larry an email a couple of days ago asking if he was going to do this class again next year. He said thinking about it and to keep checking his website. Maybe if a bunch of us keep bugging him about it he'll definitely schedule the class. After reading the AAR's I'll sign up as soon as the class is posted. I've already signed up for his 2 Day Advanced Handgun class in May.

C4IGrant
11-16-11, 08:29
Damn fine AAR's. When I first saw the offering for this class, I knew I wanted in. After reading the AAR's, I'm not sure if my training is geared for room clearing. Was there anyone there that had not trained on room clearing? How tolerant of the need to catch up would/were the instructors/other shooters?

I'd like to begin preparing for next year's class. If the zombies haven't taken over by then. :D

To be honest, you are not expected to know anything about clearing rooms in the HD class. This is a BASIC class. Nothing too advanced or difficult.
What you do need to be good at is hitting a 6" circle at 10yds from a draw, on the move, shooting from around cover and in the dark.

If you have zero issues with the above, then I don't think you will run into much problems.



C4

C4IGrant
11-16-11, 08:32
Date isn't up yet. But I'll be there for sure.

I have been talking with LAV about doing a Level II HD class. This would involve more two man clearing, more decision targets, more rooms to clear and more low light. The students would also be held to a higher standard.

In order to attend, you would have to have completed LAV or Hackathorn's HD class.


C4

amac
11-16-11, 09:19
I am definitely down for the level 1 class. I'll keep checking the web for a class listing. Shit, i'll start buying frang now!

Titleist
11-16-11, 09:28
I'd be in for the L2 class. Hell even taking the L1 class would be a great use of time.

Thanks for the effort, Grant.

amac
11-16-11, 09:45
Was body armor shared or is each person required to have their own?

Titleist
11-16-11, 10:26
I'm sure you can share, but just like a toothbrush I'd rather have my own.

Littlelebowski
11-16-11, 10:55
I'm thinking of trying a M1 Carbine the next time I'm in the houses up there.

Keep us updated. I like that idea. A lot.

C4IGrant
11-16-11, 13:16
Was body armor shared or is each person required to have their own?

Sharing is a PITA so I would get your own (is a good idea anyways as the world ain't getting any safer).



C4

m4fun
11-16-11, 14:07
Sharing is a PITA so I would get your own (is a good idea anyways as the world ain't getting any safer).



C4

Agree with Grant. I ended up sharing mine - was a pain trying to do the on/off game while keeping your ears on - in the end we got it down. Plus day one was a bit on the chilly side and I needed all layers I could.

The person sharing mine asked lots of questions of folks with the different rigs. I am sure he came away with some good info on what to get, which really is important for not only safety but with how much a quality rig can cost.

paulee
11-16-11, 16:58
Any suggestions on good rigs and setups to look for?

Titleist
11-16-11, 17:00
Armor rigs? I'm a huge fan of the BFG LMAC and CRYE JPC. Both of which were the most popular rigs in class.

30 cal slut
11-16-11, 17:02
I have been talking with LAV about doing a Level II HD class. This would involve more two man clearing, more decision targets, more rooms to clear and more low light. The students would also be held to a higher standard.

In order to attend, you would have to have completed LAV or Hackathorn's HD class.


C4

Bring back the dark! :D

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f15/30calslut/LAVNov2008.jpg

Ironman8
11-16-11, 17:05
The above two in Titleists post and the SKD PIG and Mayflower APC would be up there in the top 5 or so.

I may be biased since it is what I use, but the Mayflower APC is a great choice if you want a low profile, relatively minimalist and lightweight PC. I did a review of it here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=82984).

Titleist
11-16-11, 17:05
...I actually did bring my NODs and helmet. But I was like, "should I be the only tool with a helmet on?"

30 cal slut
11-16-11, 17:10
...I actually did bring my NODs and helmet. But I was like, "should I be the only tool with a helmet on?"

Damn. T1 with the lights off and no white light would have been fun.

glock_forty5
11-16-11, 17:15
I'd be in for the L2 class. Hell even taking the L1 class would be a great use of time.

Thanks for the effort, Grant.

Yeah, I am going back again. L1 or L2.

Ironman8
11-16-11, 17:38
Notes are completed guys. Let me know if you want em.

m4fun and glock_forty5, sent the notes your way. Let me know if you have any trouble with the emails.

glock_forty5
11-16-11, 17:50
Notes are completed guys. Let me know if you want em.

m4fun and glock_forty5, sent the notes your way. Let me know if you have any trouble with the emails.

Got 'em! Thanks for putting this together.

Ed L.
11-18-11, 18:53
Great reviews and it sounds like an absolutely awesome class.

The thing that stops me, as well as some people from taking the class is the need to buy the heavy body armor that I will never likly use elsewhere.

For someone flying there is the nightmare of the logistics of getting all of that gear there, but as we can see some people did brave it.

Titleist
11-18-11, 19:48
Great reviews and it sounds like an absolutely awesome class.

The thing that stops me, as well as some people from taking the class is the need to buy the heavy body armor that I will never likly use elsewhere.

For someone flying there is the nightmare of the logistics of getting all of that gear there, but as we can see some people did brave it.

To be honest, thinking about the logistics was harder than just doing it. If there's any specific questions feel free to ask.

Jim D
11-18-11, 20:15
Great reviews and it sounds like an absolutely awesome class.

The thing that stops me, as well as some people from taking the class is the need to buy the heavy body armor that I will never likly use elsewhere.

For someone flying there is the nightmare of the logistics of getting all of that gear there, but as we can see some people did brave it.

USTC has armor for rent for those who don't have it.

d90king
11-19-11, 07:43
USTC has armor for rent for those who don't have it.

Not anymore with the ownership changes. Much has changed compared to years past. This was brought up during class.

C45P312
11-19-11, 09:24
Not anymore with the ownership changes. Much has changed compared to years past. This was brought up during class.

What else has changed that you know of?

d90king
11-19-11, 09:38
What else has changed that you know of?

Guys had issues buying frang which in the past was no problem and access has gotten to be a PITA in some cases. Far less staff than in years past. Steel targets systems not working properly amongst other things. None of which are really a big issue and when something didn't work they got it up and running. It is obvious though that they are working with a very thinly spread staff.


I bring everything with me to class so it wasnt an issue, but it was for a couple of others.

NCPatrolAR
11-19-11, 15:22
Great reviews and it sounds like an absolutely awesome class.

The thing that stops me, as well as some people from taking the class is the need to buy the heavy body armor that I will never likly use elsewhere.

For someone flying there is the nightmare of the logistics of getting all of that gear there, but as we can see some people did brave it.

I always try to bring extra armor when headed to classes such as these. You could always ask to borrow an extra carrier with plates

M4Guru
11-19-11, 15:58
USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.

C45P312
11-19-11, 19:48
Guys had issues buying frang which in the past was no problem and access has gotten to be a PITA in some cases. Far less staff than in years past. Steel targets systems not working properly amongst other things. None of which are really a big issue and when something didn't work they got it up and running. It is obvious though that they are working with a very thinly spread staff.


I bring everything with me to class so it wasnt an issue, but it was for a couple of others.


USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.
Man, that sucks. I remember when that place use to be bustling! I can understand though. Maybe the new management is just rearranging and will be at full capacity in a coming months. It doesn't help that they're increasing rates for their classes too. I would imagine that they'll be increasing rates for 3rd party instructors as well.

I posted in the original thread about having access to 62gr 5.56 frangible but only 2 people got in contact with me. Maybe next time I'll just have it on hand versus ordering it specifically for the Vickers HD class.

Titleist
11-19-11, 20:00
I got within a month of class and just had to pull the trigger. I found a good deal, but next year getting a group order together seems like a solid idea.

Heavy Metal
11-19-11, 20:06
I got the Barnes 55 gr frang projectiles and rolled my own.

So far I could not be more pleased, my load has worked 100% and is far more than acurate enough for use at limited ranges.

In fact, some purchased loaded ammo with the same bullet and had beaucoup problems.

My magic sauce was just 23gr of H-335 as recommended by the tech at Barnes(he said 22-24gr, I split the diff). You had to cut the powder charge due to the long-ass length of these bullets.

The only downside is the super-square base made loading in a friend's Dillion 550 a real PITA! I crushed several case necks, did salvage the bullets though.

30 cal slut
11-20-11, 13:47
USTC/BW definitely seems to have scaled back their support functions in the last two years...but I also don't see every range full anymore and the place busting at the seams with customers like it used to so that's to be expected.

If the facility was still a cash cow they wouldn't have sold it...

By coordinating here on the forums or with Grey Group CS, usually loaner armor hasn't been a problem for anyone. Don't let that stop you, we'll figure something out.

Defense and related spending is falling due to budgetary pressures and winding down of Iraq and possibly A-stan. This is going to affect federal training budgets.

With the housing bust and lousy economy, state and municipal budgets are under pressure. Many states derive their revenue from state income taxes and most municipalities derive their revenue from property taxes. With unemployment still high relative to the pre-bust years (2001-2007), incomes are down and therefore state tax revenues are down. With home prices down sharply vs. 2006 highs (and foreclosure activity), property tax revenues are down sharply. This has hurt state and municipal LE training budgets.

It's not reasonable to expect the private citizen to take up all the slack in training expenditures - so a facility like BW, which has to have huge fixed and sunk costs might be struggling under the new management.

Larry could probably save the facility by hosting a home defense class every weekend. :p

(I keed...)

30 cal slut
11-23-11, 18:14
an ammo note:

several of us were running the silver state armory 55 gr barnes rrlp frangible round in the class and were having problems with it, namely stuck cases and blown primers indicative of excessive pressure.

ssa stated that the 8/15/11 lot was the culprit.

discussion here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92390

d90king
11-23-11, 18:18
an ammo note:

several of us were running the silver state armory 55 gr barnes rrlp frangible round in the class and were having problems with it, namely stuck cases and blown primers indicative of excessive pressure.

ssa stated that the 8/15/11 lot was the culprit.

discussion here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92390

Keep us posted Slut. SSA has always been GTG and I believe they will make it right like I told you at the class.

30 cal slut
11-23-11, 18:21
Keep us posted Slut. SSA has always been GTG and I believe they will make it right like I told you at the class.

Patrick, thanks, I will follow up with the manufacturer.

C45P312
11-23-11, 23:13
an ammo note:

several of us were running the silver state armory 55 gr barnes rrlp frangible round in the class and were having problems with it, namely stuck cases and blown primers indicative of excessive pressure.

ssa stated that the 8/15/11 lot was the culprit.

discussion here:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=92390
I'm sorry to hear that. Should have gotten off my ass and got to ordering the BHA stuff for the people in the class.

kwelz
11-30-11, 19:33
One of my favorite Larry-isms was on TD2:

"Bro, you've got some good shit on that rifle, Daniel Defense, Surefire suppressor, but seriously what is going on with that scope?" - In reference to a mini red dot sight.

"Well, I'm going to try running it for a whole year and see how it does."

"Okay, I could try being gay for a whole year too, but I don't need to do that to tell you it's just WRONG."


Was this about Joe and his Micro Trijicon?

Titleist
11-30-11, 19:40
Was this about Joe and his Micro Trijicon?

Yup! :p

Mr. Smith
11-30-11, 19:45
Ok guys you know I am tender hearted. Stop it or I will go home.

kwelz
11-30-11, 19:45
Yup! :p

I figured as much. Joe likes to go against the grain sometimes. First his 2011 now this. :D

Looks like you all had a hell of a time.

kwelz
11-30-11, 20:05
Ok guys you know I am tender hatred stop it or I will go home.

Yeah you are tender like a little dainty schoolgirl.

d90king
12-01-11, 06:00
Yeah you are tender like a little dainty schoolgirl.

Not sure "dainty" and "tender" have been used in the same sentence discussing him before... :D

Mr. Smith
12-01-11, 07:43
Not sure "dainty" and "tender" have been used in the same sentence discussing him before... :D

I am like a baby kitten that just wants to be held.

superr.stu
12-01-11, 07:46
I am like a baby kitten that just wants to be held.

I threw up a little in my mouth just now...

30 cal slut
12-08-11, 06:46
If I haven't said it before, Titleist shoots a mean camera. Great pics bro. :)