View Full Version : 9mm 127gr +P+ Ranger shooting results
QuietShootr
11-09-11, 07:33
Unfortunately, I had to shoot a dog that attacked my wife two days ago. This thread is not about the merits of dog shooting but the performance of the ammunition.
The gun was a Glock 19, and the dog was approximately 50#. The first two shots were fired as a hammer, from above into the dog's back at a range of about two feet, and the third was fired transversely through the brain when the dog failed to release its grip on my wife's leg.
The first two bullets remained inside the dog and were not recovered. The third bullet completely penetrated and exited the skull, leaving a dent in the tile floor. There was a complete core separation, leaving the jacket lying on the floor next to the dent, and the core was recovered lying on a desk approximately six feet away (apparently it bounced off the floor with just enough energy remaining to loft it over to the desk).
The dog was more or less DRT after the first two shots, but when he refused to relinquish his grip I decided a head shot was indicated. He still had to be pried off my wife's leg even after the brain was destroyed.
I'm a little curious/concerned that the first two rounds did not exit. I didn't take measurements, but a 50# dog is not THAT thick in its vertical aspect. It would be interesting to know if those rounds experienced core separation as well.
I'm now considering the 147gr Ranger, and perhaps the new bonded 127gr +P+ Ranger as well. I think I'd like a little more penetration than what I got.
Opinions, Doc?
Wife is ok, btw. Broken toes and puncture wounds, but ok.
I'm now considering the 147gr Ranger, and perhaps the new bonded 127gr +P+ Ranger as well. I think I'd like a little more penetration than what I got.
Looks like you got to experience handgun terminal effects first hand. I'm glad that your wife is not too badly injured, a strong dog bit can do quite a bit of damage. I've shot my share of dogs. The only dog I've shot that dropped quickly on the first shot was with a .308 155gr AMAX. Myself, and other officers using 9mm, .40, and .45 have not dropped dogs on the first shot unless it was in the head or a flank shot through the heart and lungs.
I would go with the 147gr loading. There is no need for the 127gr load other than for those who feel more confident using a 9mm load that makes a bigger boom, "feels" like it does more damage due to recoil, and/or want to shoot through steel. I am issued 124gr+P Gold Dots, but I prefer the heavier standard pressure 147gr loading.
I guess the energy dump and pressure wave of that 127gr+P+ load didn't knock the dog on its ass? :p
BullittBoy
11-09-11, 13:35
I have an absolutely different story of the same ammo and similar dog attack.
I was walking my dog and took my P7M8 and Ranger 127+P+ loads.
We made it 100 yards from my house when I noticed two dogs about 50 yards away with no leashes and no dog collars on them.
They approached my dog at a rapid pace and started growling.
I grabbed her and sat on top of her as I didn't want her to get bit and to keep her still.
I pulled out the P7 with my other hand and took a bead on the lead dog as the other dog started to circle around the side of me.
I pulled the trigger and heard "click"-the worst sound ever. I then realized I was using this for a nightstand gun and forgot to chamber it.
I did a tap rack and put it on his chest and pulled the trigger. He did a complete flip backwards and started howling loudly. The other dog froze and I swung around to him-he freaked out and ran over to his buddy as the first dog expired.
All this took about 20 seconds from start to stop. I went back the next morning and the bullet started on left front shoulder and exited in the right rear hindquarters.
It was close to dark and I retreated back to the house with my dog as I thought someone would call the cops but they didn't.
The bullet performed for me.
Glad to hear that your wife is ok.
QuietShootr
11-09-11, 14:48
I don't think I'm going to dump it. It worked fine - I was just surprised that it didn't exit the thorax. It expanded perfectly, and the jacket separation is incidental, I guess. I'd prefer it if it was bonded, but you really can't argue with the results.
A couple of years ago, I was just getting in to shooting water to see what pistol bulletss did. Zhukov and I were at an event when I shot a 127gr +P+ Ranger Talon into some jugs. It didnt fragment, and the core didnt separate, but it grossly over-expanded and only penetrated into the second milk jug.
I took some pictures of it, but lost them. I gave the bullet to Zhukov, but I dont know what ever became of it.
I guess the energy dump and pressure wave of that 127gr+P+ load didn't knock the dog on its ass? :p
:sarcastic::sarcastic::sarcastic:
Looks like you got to experience handgun terminal effects first hand. I'm glad that your wife is not too badly injured, a strong dog bit can do quite a bit of damage. I've shot my share of dogs. The only dog I've shot that dropped quickly on the first shot was with a .308 155gr AMAX. Myself, and other officers using 9mm, .40, and .45 have not dropped dogs on the first shot unless it was in the head or a flank shot through the heart and lungs.
I've been on warrants where guys have shot dogs, (sometime for no good reason if you ask me..), and it took multiple .223's or multiple .38's/9mm's to put them down. Pretty horrific scene. Not good memories.
Generalpie
11-09-11, 19:35
Nobody told dogs they are supposed to stop when shot. I've seen some drop like stones and others just run around yelping. Nearly all of them have stopped attacking or threatening when they happened so I guess it worked.
Only one I have had to shoot and that was with a 62 grain TBBC .223 and that worked as would be expected. It is never the dogs fault and I always feel bad when it has to happen. It is a shame all around.
Glad your wife is OK.
BufordTJustice
11-09-11, 20:23
I'm glad your wife is okay.
I wonder if the core-jacket separation happened due to impact with the floor as opposed to encountering the dog's skull.
Most benefits of the jacket's expansion largely disappear if the core separates from the jacket while in the body.
I have had good experiences with small FL feral hogs using GDHP 124gr +P, HST 124gr +P and now HST 147gr +P.
I've never personally experienced a core-jacket separation with the HSTs, despite their non-bonded construction.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Please give your wife our best wishes.
vicious_cb
11-09-11, 20:34
Not quite sure why but this load seems to have some inconsistent performance.
See these 2 tests, completely different results.
Winchester Ranger T-Series 9mm +P+ 127 gr JHP AMMO TEST :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSY018CXRi8
Winchester 9mm +P+ 127 gr SXT (RA9TA) Test w/Denim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94kAhNac024
QuietShootr
11-09-11, 20:38
I'm glad your wife is okay.
I wonder if the core-jacket separation happened due to impact with the floor as opposed to encountering the dog's skull.
Most benefits of the jacket's expansion largely disappear if the core separates from the jacket while in the body.
I have had good experiences with small FL feral hogs using GDHP 124gr +P, HST 124gr +P and now HST 147gr +P.
I've never personally experienced a core-jacket separation with the HSTs, despite their non-bonded construction.
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Please give your wife our best wishes.
I tend to agree with the floor theory based on finding the core somewhere else. I have a couple of pics of the jacket and core I will put up just for the 'things that make you go hmm." file.
She's doing okay. Very sore, as would be expected.
I hate like hell I had to do that. But if I had gotten him off of her, he probably would have been euthanized anyway as unadoptable (he was a foster rescue dog.) Shit situation.
Core separation and failures to expand is why I'm considering Cor-Bon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.
Shoulderthinggoesup
11-10-11, 10:52
Great info. I really believe in the newer 147 grain hps and use standard pressure hst for that reason. However- handguns are handguns......
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk
Not to mention, if you want even more penetration than what the standard pressure 147gr HST offers, you can get it in the 147gr+P version.
In the human GSW cases I have seen, if there was a core-jacket separation within the body, the jacket stayed in the body.
When the OP is finished posting his images I will add some images of an old Ranger SXT jacket which was retained in a person's pelvis. It was a perforating GSW with a retained jacket and small lead core fragments.
QuietShootr
11-10-11, 13:43
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/IMG_1341.jpg
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/IMG_1340.jpg
http://i794.photobucket.com/albums/yy229/QS762556/IMG_1339.jpg
vicious_cb
11-10-11, 15:07
Not to mention, if you want even more penetration than what the standard pressure 147gr HST offers, you can get it in the 147gr+P version.
It actually might give you less penetration.
Core separation and failures to expand is why I'm considering Cor-Bon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.
Since the Hornady Critical Duty round is still unproven. With no independent testing. What makes you think that it will work better than the Rangers?
Nephrology
11-10-11, 16:10
I pulled the trigger and heard "click"-the worst sound ever. I then realized I was using this for a nightstand gun and forgot to chamber it.
Perhaps a change of tactics is in order.....
It actually might give you less penetration.
Unfortunately I haven't seen any testing on the load. However, almost all modern JHPs on the market today are controlled expansion or reach their expansion threshold. That is, that once they reach a certain expansion level the bullet no longer has the ability to expand any more and the petals fold back and hug the truck of the bullet....even with increased velocity. Most are also engineered to stop expanding once the bullet has mushroomed down to half the length of the bullet. Otherwise, the bullet will lose too much sectional density and have shallow penetration. Particularly with handgun cartridges fired in rifle length carbines.
For instance, Double Tap had been touting for years that the increased velocity of their loads would increase both expansion and penetration. Dr. Roberts proved their claims wrong when he tested a few of their Gold Dot loads. The increased velocity improved penetration, but expansion was virtually identical to standard velocity loads because the bullets reached their expansion threshold. So, I'm sure that the 147gr+P HST will likely have similar results.
Perhaps a change of tactics is in order.....
Indeed. Definately check the condition of your pistol before it goes anywhere.......for that matter, check it as soon as it makes contact with your hand. If not, have a "written in stone" rule to go by. For instance, if the pistol is in a holster, it is loaded. If the pistol is not in a holster, it "should" be unloaded. However, such rules are silly and can result in a catastrophic error......so check them all anyway! :D
I had a similar incident a few months ago involving a foster dog. I arrived after the dog was put down. One round from a Jennings J22 from just below the neck in the back and the dog was DRT. It stopped attacking and expired almost instantly.
Ballistics is a strange thing. Same size dog, same situation, yet 3 rounds from a 9MM with good ammo and one round from a crappy 22 to do the job.
Thanks for the pics, Quietshootr, did you rinse the projectile fragments before photographing?
As promised, here are some images of an old Ranger SXT jacket. This was from a non-fatal perforating gunshot wound from inferior to superior involving the ilium of an adult female. Here is a clipped portion of the radiograph showing the jacket:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Talon5.jpg
Note the fractured ilium, small lead fragments from the core of the bullet and also a single intact piece of jacketing. On radiography these jackets have multiple densities, you can frequently see dense anatomy such as bones through the jacket.
Next are four photographs of the recovered separated jacket after rinsing and awaiting pick-up for forensic analysis:
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Talon4.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Talon3.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Talon2.jpg
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Talon1.jpg
The core was never found.
One possible factor in this separation could be a barb that hooked on the ilium or snagged in some other manner on the bone. One of the barbs "lags" behind.
At the time I took these photographs I could not find any surgical instrument marks on the barb to indicate it had been manipulated in the operating theatre. The bone snag is a guess on my part, but the radiology fits.
I don't have any other info regarding the range, calibre, clothing, wounds or loading of the ammunition. My rough guess is 9mm.
vicious_cb
11-10-11, 18:35
Unfortunately I haven't seen any testing on the load. However, almost all modern JHPs on the market today are controlled expansion or reach their expansion threshold. That is, that once they reach a certain expansion level the bullet no longer has the ability to expand any more and the petals fold back and hug the truck of the bullet....even with increased velocity. Most are also engineered to stop expanding once the bullet has mushroomed down to half the length of the bullet. Otherwise, the bullet will lose too much sectional density and have shallow penetration. Particularly with handgun cartridges fired in rifle length carbines.
For instance, Double Tap had been touting for years that the increased velocity of their loads would increase both expansion and penetration. Dr. Roberts proved their claims wrong when he tested a few of their Gold Dot loads. The increased velocity improved penetration, but expansion was virtually identical to standard velocity loads because the bullets reached their expansion threshold. So, I'm sure that the 147gr+P HST will likely have similar results.
I wouldnt assume this and make a blanket statement for all JHP bullets, that would be a dangerous assumption to make.
I wouldnt assume this and make a blanket statement for all JHP bullets, that would be a dangerous assumption to make.
Welp, until someone actually tests it, making an assumption based on good subject related evidence is perfectly reasonable. Two more examples would be the Robert's testing of the 124 Gold Dot. Speer designed the bullet to work as a standard pressure loading, and when loaded at the +P loading it demonstrates similar expansion, but better penetration. The other example would be the Broken Arrow's testing of the 147gr Golden Saber out of a 4" barrel, and then a 20" AR barrel. The exact same thing happened. Similar expansion levels, but several more inches of penetration with the higher velocity.
Six Feet Under
11-10-11, 19:19
Here are the pictures of the same exact bullet that went through my elbow at a distance of no more than two feet from the muzzle (I think it was more like a foot). I've posted them several times on here and other sites as well but here you go:
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/b9a82723.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/1e41e3fe.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/img_0847.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/img_0852.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Xray1.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet042.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/Bullet041.jpg
http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv89/longrange308/Gunshot%20Wound/261d1d2a.jpg
The last picture was taken three weeks post-shooting.
What looks like a shower of material going across in the post-surgery x-ray is bone fragments they were unable to remove. Every now and then I have one push through the skin.
QuietShootr
11-10-11, 20:22
Odd Job, thanks for posting that. To answer your question - no, I didn't rinse them, oddly enough that was the exact condition I found them in. No hair, blood, bone, nothing.
I think it's important to emphasize that I don't consider this a failure. He was DRT with the first round, he just didn't know it yet. His legs went right from under him in the half-second it took me to decide to give him a second one. The second shot was probably not necessary, but once something causes me to flip the "shoot" switch it goes to 11, having had a bad experience with failing to do that a couple of times. Dead ain't for sure dead until I see brains on the deck or the wall.
I was only questioning the performance because I would have expected full pen and exit - but maybe that dog was thicker than I thought.
SixFeetUnder, I know I probably asked you this somewhere before, but do you consider that you were incapacitated by that hit? Could you have picked up a weapon and effectively fought with your unwounded hand?
QuietShootr
11-10-11, 20:24
I had a similar incident a few months ago involving a foster dog. I arrived after the dog was put down. One round from a Jennings J22 from just below the neck in the back and the dog was DRT. It stopped attacking and expired almost instantly.
Ballistics is a strange thing. Same size dog, same situation, yet 3 rounds from a 9MM with good ammo and one round from a crappy 22 to do the job.
Sounds like a totally different hit, though. Your guy sounds like he hit the spine, whereas I hit in the mid- to lower thorax, aiming for the liver and so on. And by the oral exsanguination that occurred that quickly, I'd say I got it.
I would go with the 147gr loading. There is no need for the 127gr load other than for those who feel more confident using a 9mm load that makes a bigger boom, "feels" like it does more damage due to recoil, and/or want to shoot through steel.
Actually, I would disagree with this statement. There is a need for the +p+ loading and that is firing your 9mm from a 3 inch barrel. There is a minimum velocity at which the bullet will expand and the +P+ loading out of a short barrel just assures this velocity will be met.
I think the +P is pefectly fine for standard barrels.
Actually, I would disagree with this statement. There is a need for the +p+ loading and that is firing your 9mm from a 3 inch barrel. There is a minimum velocity at which the bullet will expand and the +P+ loading out of a short barrel just assures this velocity will be met.
I think the +P is pefectly fine for standard barrels.
There is actually less velocity lost from the 147gr loading than lighter high pressure loadings(chart is Molons):
http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee465/scott19761442/9mmVelocityLoss.jpg
+P and +P+ velocity loads often use from 1-3 more grains of charge requiring more barrel length to effectively burn more powder and thus achieve the desired velocities. The faster projectile also leaves the barrel faster resulting in less powder burn and pressure buildup in the barrel. The slower moving 147gr load with less charge has more time to burn its charge and thus.....less percentage of velocity lost.
Similar shooting, different bullet/caliber.
Well, came in to cover for day shift on patrol. Went to a vicious dog call (the dog had allegedly attacked a mail carrier). It was supposed to be a white pit. Got there, and saw it run across the street to the yard where it lived (along with 3 other pits - oh, and they are all owned by a local drug dealer who I believe trains them to be generally unfriendly toward people).
Well, I thought the dog would stay in the back yard like they usually do, so I went to contact the resident and tell him to chain the dog up and maybe write him a ticket if I thought it was needed. About right when I stepped into the yard, the pit charged me in a most unfriendly manner. Having been chewed on by a dog recently, i didn't want any of that. I had no time to run, and I shot it as it was jumping at me, hitting it in the back between the shoulder blades. It was maybe about 1-2 feet away. Dog ran off to the back of the house and died. Bullet was recovered sitting on the top of the grass, perfectly expanded (see below pretty pictures). Oh - this fired from a Glock 31 (our issued duty pistols).
Sure thought I was too late on that one. Damned glad I didn't get a repeat crotch-chewing. Owner of dog wasn't in the least upset. Kinda weird. Had about 5 neighbors come out and thank me. Oh, and once again - no ringing of the ears.
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a307/jlatzke/IMG_2595.jpg
expanded 357SIG slug recovered from story above next to un-expanded .45ACP Gold-Dot for reference.
And when I got the bullet home and weighed it on my scale, it came in at 124.0 grains. Not bad weight retention.
The dog I shot stopped attacking immediately, but ran to the back yard yelping where it died. It didn't drop in it's tracks or anything. It did expire fairly quickly from a whole bunch of blood loss. Oddly enough, the entrance was much bigger than the exit. Maybe b/c it was on bone. Dog was literally pumping blood about a foot+ in the air as it ran off, leaving a huge blood trail.
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1931084651/m/5691082662?r=5691082662#5691082662
BufordTJustice
11-11-11, 00:16
I just want to comment on what a fantastic thread this has turned-out to be. I've been fascinated by nearly every post and certainly every picture.
Sixfeetunder, I would like to echo Quietshooter's question about incapacitation with regard to your injury. I'm very interested in your well-informed opinion on the subject.
packinaglock
11-11-11, 20:53
Core separation and failures to expand is why I'm considering Cor-Bon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.
Why not Gold Dots? They have a great track record.
Six Feet Under
11-12-11, 17:53
SixFeetUnder, I know I probably asked you this somewhere before, but do you consider that you were incapacitated by that hit? Could you have picked up a weapon and effectively fought with your unwounded hand?
Sixfeetunder, I would like to echo Quietshooter's question about incapacitation with regard to your injury. I'm very interested in your well-informed opinion on the subject.
Absolutely. I was so goddamn mad when that happened that I didn't even REALLY feel it until they loaded me in the helicopter to fly me to Tampa General. Just felt like someone parked a truck on my arm due to the pressure. The only thing is, I was holding on to my right wrist with my left hand to stabilize the arm... I guess using that as the base for this scenario I'd have to set the injured wrist/arm on my knee or a table or something and shoot one-handed. There is absolutely no way I could have used that arm because the forearm and hand were only held on by skin and muscle as you can tell in the first couple of x-rays.
I laid in the emergency room for six hours before they put me in a room for a couple hours and then woke me up at 0800 to have surgery at 0900 the next morning. The whole time I was in there I was on the phone talking to my friends and family and laughing (angry laughter, anyways... what else are you going to do about it, you can't change it) about it with the nurses and doctors that came in. After the surgery to fix the damage, the surgeon came in and told me no push-ups, no weight lifting, no police academy, best case 80% use total (strength, range of motion, grip, feeling, etc, all would be lacking at least 20%) ever again. I started going to the gym back in February and was up to 135 on bench within 3-4 months. I can do push-ups, my right hand is stronger than my left and I got back in the academy 12 weeks ago this coming Monday. That anger carried over, as bad as that sounds, and allowed me to go to my hour-long physical therapy sessions three times a week with zero pain medicine sometimes, not even Advil, and let the therapist push my shoulder and wrist apart and tear all that tissue around the joint to loosen it back up and get the range of motion back.
We did stress/survival shooting today at the range for the academy. After running up and down the 30 foot berms the bay we shoot in is surrounded by, doing 200 yard sprints up the hill and back, 60-second push-ups (spent 15 seconds each at 1/4, 1/2, all the way down and then 15 at full extension), and about 75 jumping jacks to get our heart rates up, I shot better (by at least 3 rounds out of 48 total) than my normal timed qualification with no stress added. I'm not sure if that's just because it seems to be that I perform better under pressure or if it was a freak occurrence, but I was kind of surprised.
QuietShootr
11-12-11, 18:11
Absolutely. I was so goddamn mad when that happened that I didn't even REALLY feel it until they loaded me in the helicopter to fly me to Tampa General. Just felt like someone parked a truck on my arm due to the pressure. The only thing is, I was holding on to my right wrist
I know EXACTLY what you mean.
Hell of a story, and you should be ****in' proud of yourself for sacking the **** up and coming back stronger.
BufordTJustice
11-13-11, 23:49
Hell of a story, and you should be ****in' proud of yourself for sacking the **** up and coming back stronger.
+1
Damn right. Keep your chin up. :)
Roommate took a 357sig fmj fp to the lateral aspect of the upper thigh, no major structures hit. He was walking and did not feel it for a few hours.
domestique
11-14-11, 12:02
OP, Glad to hear you and your wife are safe.
Six Feet Under, thank you for sharing
Alaskapopo
11-17-11, 03:48
Perhaps a change of tactics is in order.....
That is what I was thinking. My night stand gun is hot. I don't believe in chamber three carry for pistols rather it be in your holster or in the night stand.
Pat
Pistol bullets....:lazy:
5.56= winning
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r125/bastardsquad_photos/CIMG0013.jpg
In my city a policeman recently shot a pit with a Glock .40 at close range. The dog lived and was euthanized two days later. The animal was mauling an old guy, who had fallen to the ground, and went to attack mode when the officer approached.
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