View Full Version : Paterno and Penn State
What the hell is a 10 year old boy doing in the locker room of a D1 NCAA athletic program by himself in the first place?
Discuss...
As a PSU Alumnus here, all I can say is that I am heavily troubled by what has been revealed. Coach Paterno's whole theme in life revolves around sportsmanship and honor. Now it's starting to look like maybe Joe listened to slimeball lawyers/Trustees/perverts when he should have sucked it up and done the right thing.
... and I was really looking forward to the game with Nebraska this weekend, too! Hopefully the team can suck it up and play on. Remember the 1994 season when #1 ranked Nebraska and #2 raked PSU never got to play each other that year? THAT's a match I'd like to have seen. At least we won the Rose Bowl that year :p
montanadave
11-09-11, 10:27
Penn State officials, Paterno included, put the welfare of their precious (and HUGELY profitable) football program ahead of the welfare of children who were being serially groomed and victimized by a child molester.
Read the grand jury transcripts and try not to gag. (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf)
The fact that these guys knew what they knew when they knew it, and failed to take action which would have prevented Sandusky from sexually abusing another kid is simply inexcusable. They all bear some accountability.
No sympathy for Paterno. He failed to protect innocent kids being abused by a monster. Out of self-interest and self-preservation. Whatever his accomplishments as a coach, a leader, and a mentor, they are forever diminished by this act of moral cowardice.
Cincinnatus
11-09-11, 10:31
Penn State officials, Paterno included, put the welfare of their precious (and HUGELY profitable) football program ahead of the welfare of children who were being serially groomed and victimized by a child molester.
Read the grand jury transcripts and try not to gag. (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf)
The fact that these guys knew what they knew when they knew it, and failed to take action which would have prevented Sandusky from sexually abusing another kid is simply inexcusable. They all bear some accountability.
No sympathy for Paterno. He failed to protect innocent kids being abused by a monster. Out of self-interest and self-preservation. Whatever his accomplishments as a coach, a leader, and a mentor, are forever diminished by this act of moral cowardice.
I second this. To hell with his career and his accomplishments. All child-molesters should be dangled on rails for us to shoot at at the range.
I believe we'll be seeing Paterno in criminal court as a witness, and civil court as a defendant before this story is completed. :(
No sympathy for Paterno.
Agreed 110%, despite being a Penn Stater. This ****ing hurts.
woodandsteel
11-09-11, 12:47
Penn State officials, Paterno included, put the welfare of their precious (and HUGELY profitable) football program ahead of the welfare of children who were being serially groomed and victimized by a child molester.
Read the grand jury transcripts and try not to gag. (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf)
The fact that these guys knew what they knew when they knew it, and failed to take action which would have prevented Sandusky from sexually abusing another kid is simply inexcusable. They all bear some accountability.
No sympathy for Paterno. He failed to protect innocent kids being abused by a monster. Out of self-interest and self-preservation. Whatever his accomplishments as a coach, a leader, and a mentor, they are forever diminished by this act of moral cowardice.
I couldn't agree more.
I used to have the greatest respect for Paterno. But his actions in this case are inexcusible. I know that tehnically speaking he did what was required of him (taking this to the next person above him). But, when dealing with child sex abuse, I'd expect him to go above and beyond to protect the kids.
He should step down immediately. Not at the end of the season.
I believe we'll be seeing Paterno in criminal court as a witness, and civil court as a defendant before this story is completed. :(
He may testify in the criminal case, against the others. However, he will not face criminal charges. The Grand Jury already cleared him.
He'll definitely be in the civil case.
As a PSU Alumnus here, all I can say is that I am heavily troubled by what has been revealed. Coach Paterno's whole theme in life revolves around sportsmanship and honor. Now it's starting to look like maybe Joe listened to slimeball lawyers/Trustees/perverts when he should have sucked it up and done the right thing.
Yeah, this is what I said when this came up in a conversation yesterday. Anybody that ever played team sports and listened to coaches make speeches about integrity, character, etc., knows how they go on about this kind of thing. Well when it came time for him to have just a shred of decency (let alone other virtues he no doubt promoted in talks to athletes over the years) he failed his test BIG TIME.
What the hell is a 10 year old boy doing in the locker room of a D1 NCAA athletic program by himself in the first place?
Discuss...
Where were the parents? Doesn't anybody watch their kids anymore after all the reports of abductions and rape in so many supposedly "safe" circumstances (school, church, scouts, etc)?
And how is it the guy who witnessed it happening did nothing but report it to Paterno? How about beating the living shit out of the pervert right then and there? How about calling the cops pronto and locking him up forever squared? How does someone witness a 10-yr old being raped and just "report it?!"
Where were the parents?
What I had heard was these kids were in some kind of state run program for "at risk" youth.
Here is how i see it.....
G.A. saw it reported it to Joe Pa, Joe Pa then reports it to his A.D. and V.P. (who was over the campus police). End of Story as far as Joe Paterno is concerned. Could he have called the FBI, CIA, St. Police....ya i guess, but why are we making Paterno out to be the fall guy? Because people know his name. Should he had done more, yep. Will he pay for not, oh ya.
This whole deal stinks to high heaven. Especially when the D.A. refused to try the case...and has been missing for 5yrs...
This perv shouldve been locked up in 98 when they first investigated him.
I don't know what to think.
Paterno says that what the G.A. told him was not detailed like the grand jury reports. He reported it up the chain of command.
If this is true, that what he was told was not that detailed, he may have done enough. I don't know.
I am not a Penn State person, but I am not sure Paterno should get all the blame. He reported it to people who should have looked into it and didn't. Those people are the ones with blood on their hands. It's not like he was the one doing the abusive things to the kids or was involved or covering it up like the idiots he reported it to.
Hindsight is 20/20 .
I don't know what to think.
Paterno says that what the G.A. told him was not detailed like the grand jury reports. He reported it up the chain of command.
If this is true, that what he was told was not that detailed, he may have done enough. I don't know.
I am not a Penn State person, but I am not sure Paterno should get all the blame. He reported it to people who should have looked into it and didn't. Those people are the ones with blood on their hands. It's not like he was the one doing the abusive things to the kids or was involved or covering it up like the idiots he reported it to.
Hindsight is 20/20 .
I want to know exactly what he was told before I really pass any judgement. I am a rare alumnus though and have wanted Paterno out for a few years now.
I want to know exactly what he was told before I really pass any judgement. I am a rare alumnus though and have wanted Paterno out for a few years now.
agreed.
montanadave
11-09-11, 17:15
Read the grand jury transcript (Victim 2, page 6) linked in my earlier post.
It says the graduate student "reported what he had seen" to Paterno the next morning. And what he had seen was pretty graphic.
Where were the parents? Doesn't anybody watch their kids anymore after all the reports of abductions and rape in so many supposedly "safe" circumstances (school, church, scouts, etc)?
And how is it the guy who witnessed it happening did nothing but report it to Paterno? How about beating the living shit out of the pervert right then and there? How about calling the cops pronto and locking him up forever squared? How does someone witness a 10-yr old being raped and just "report it?!"
Pedophiles are Very Good at picking and grooming vulnerable children as victims. This piece of shit was obviously good at it. He freaking started a foundation the Second Mile which supplied him with the perfect victims.
He was a famous Penn State Football Coach with tons of status and power. I read the transcript and following the dirt bag Sandusky I am disgusted with the 28 year old graduate assistant, a 6'1" 200 + pound former football player. This man should have IMMEDIATELY stopped the rape of the ten year old boy by a 60 year old man he witnessed in the shower.
There are certain things that Require Immediate Action and the rape of a Ten Year Old Child is Pretty ****ing High on the list. Any force necessary would have been appropriate. Instead he is said to have left the area and called his Dad! WTF! He needs to have his man card revoked and should be branded a Coward.
Read the grand jury transcript (Victim 2, page 6) linked in my earlier post.
It says the graduate student "reported what he had seen" to Paterno the next morning. And what he had seen was pretty graphic.
He heard a slapping noise that sounded like sex before he saw the old man had the young boy bent over in the shower anally raping him. This is absolutely freaking disgusting. Yes it was passed up the chain of command but they let the guy keep his privileges and access to the school.
Read the grand jury transcript (Victim 2, page 6) linked in my earlier post.
It says the graduate student "reported what he had seen" to Paterno the next morning. And what he had seen was pretty graphic.
"reported what he had seen" does not mean anything. It could mean that he gave a general statement (I saw XYZ in the shower with a kid) to being very graphic (I saw XYZ raping a kid in the shower). Both would satisfy that statement.
(I have no bone in this -- no relationship at all to Penn and could care less about Paterno. Paterno claims that he was not given the graphic details. It is important to know what he was given, in detail, not generalities, before we can judge him)
I want to know exactly what he was told before I really pass any judgement. I am a rare alumnus though and have wanted Paterno out for a few years now.
You will never know this for sure. Paterno and the GA were the only people in the room during the conversation and both are giving dramatically different accounts. Unfortunately, the GA did not have the foresight to put his observations in an email.
Here is how i see it.....
G.A. saw it reported it to Joe Pa, Joe Pa then reports it to his A.D. and V.P. (who was over the campus police). End of Story as far as Joe Paterno is concerned. Could he have called the FBI, CIA, St. Police....ya i guess, but why are we making Paterno out to be the fall guy? Because people know his name. Should he had done more, yep. Will he pay for not, oh ya.
This whole deal stinks to high heaven. Especially when the D.A. refused to try the case...and has been missing for 5yrs...
This perv shouldve been locked up in 98 when they first investigated him.
IMO Paterno is guilty for a couple of reasons. For all intents and purposes he is the de facto most powerful individual at PSU. He has a leadership position that can't be touched. So just because he reported it, he cannot wash his hands of the situation. Once he reported the instance and didn't get interviewed for a follow up by the LEOs or child protective services he should have followed up. He was morally obligated to do so. Next up are the local LEOs who actually did conduct and investigation and from reports had enough evidence to make an arrest. However they chose to ignore it. I can only speculate that they did so out of loyalty to the school. Joe Pa isn't the only one culpable here. However he needs to pay.
I would also like to know HOW/WHY this went on for years with specific victims. 4yrs? Really? Would it have anything to do with what he was giving the kids? (cash, computers, clothing, ect)
I read the documents and it seemed that only one kid cut off contact once he had been touched.
Why would parents think its ok for a child to stay the night with a 60yr old man that isnt related to them?
"He was a famous Penn State Football Coach with tons of status and power"
That might be why the g.a. didnt call the cops. They hadnt done anything to him in 98', why would he think they would do anything this time. Maybe he was fearful of the backlash of speaking out...since Sandusky was a "famous coach with power"......
montanadave
11-09-11, 17:52
You will never know this for sure. Paterno and the GA were the only people in the room during the conversation and both are giving dramatically different accounts. Unfortunately, the GA did not have the foresight to put his observations in an email.
Exactly. So we're left to decide who is more likely telling the truth. The graduate student testified to seeing a boy being anally raped by a naked grown man, being seen by both parties, and leaving the facility immediately. By admitting he saw a man known to him sexually abusing a child and failed to intervene or immediately report the incident to campus police or law enforcement, the graduate student leaves himself open to condemnation from many. Several members here have expressed disgust and outrage at his failure to intervene and stop the act.
Paterno contradicts the graduate student's testimony and alleges the graduate student gave him a sanitized version of the events witnessed in the shower room so, after reporting it to his athletic director, he washed his hands of the matter.
One guy's providing testimony that places himself in a very unfavorable light and the other guy is providing a different version of events that places him in the most favorable light.
You make the call.
SeriousStudent
11-09-11, 18:26
Mission Statement of Penn State Altoona Intercollegiate Athletics:
Consistent with the University's mission, Intercollegiate Athletics strives for excellence by offering students model programs to develop meaningful standards of academic excellence, athletic performance, leadership, community service, and sportsman-like conduct within the educational and social environment of Penn State Altoona.
VALUES
We believe in the primacy of the athlete as a student.
We respect each student as an individual and their personal welfare is our highest priority.
We view competition as the means to healthy respect of self and others.
We promote traditional values of honesty, integrity, commitment, and hard work as the foundation of our reputation and continuing success.
We are committed to providing coaches who regard themselves first and foremost as teachers.
Teamwork should prevail in all interactions among students, coaches, staff, and administrators.
http://www.aa.psu.edu/sports/mission.htm
Really?
I don't know what to think.
Paterno says that what the G.A. told him was not detailed like the grand jury reports. He reported it up the chain of command.
If this is true, that what he was told was not that detailed, he may have done enough. I don't know.
I am not a Penn State person, but I am not sure Paterno should get all the blame. He reported it to people who should have looked into it and didn't. Those people are the ones with blood on their hands. It's not like he was the one doing the abusive things to the kids or was involved or covering it up like the idiots he reported it to.
Hindsight is 20/20 .
Here is how i see it.....
G.A. saw it reported it to Joe Pa, Joe Pa then reports it to his A.D. and V.P. (who was over the campus police). End of Story as far as Joe Paterno is concerned. Could he have called the FBI, CIA, St. Police....ya i guess, but why are we making Paterno out to be the fall guy? Because people know his name. Should he had done more, yep. Will he pay for not, oh ya.
This whole deal stinks to high heaven. Especially when the D.A. refused to try the case...and has been missing for 5yrs...
This perv shouldve been locked up in 98 when they first investigated him.
I concur. This is a horrible story but Joe Paterno has been made the central figure. As a PSU alum I have wanted Paterno to go for a while because I felt he was squandering talent and the team should be doing much better. However, the way the media is treating him is a little unfair.
They have a few lines of testimony and have speculated the rest. They are going after him hard because very few people have heard of Tim Curley, etc. 90% of the story line is pure speculation.
The media has ALWAYS hated Paterno and the feeling was mutual. Paterno chastises and calls them out on a weekly basis during his weekly press conferences. It doesn't help that he has been an outspoken conservative and active Republican as well. The media are licking their chops on this one.
Paterno just got fired along with the President of the university.
I concur. This is a horrible story but Joe Paterno has been made the central figure. As a PSU alum I have wanted Paterno to go for a while because I felt he was squandering talent and the team should be doing much better. However, the way the media is treating him is a little unfair.
They have a few lines of testimony and have speculated the rest. They are going after him hard because very few people have heard of Tim Curley, etc. 90% of the story line is pure speculation.
The media has ALWAYS hated Paterno and the feeling was mutual. Paterno chastises and calls them out on a weekly basis during his weekly press conferences. It doesn't help that he has been an outspoken conservative and active Republican as well. The media are licking their chops on this one.
As far as I can tell at this point, JoePa just might be clean in terms of criminal charges. Meanwhile Curley and Shultz look like a pair of shitbags about to be serve some serious jail time.
But what about civil cases? University President Graham Spanier, Joe Paterno, Mike McQueary and others could get sued really bad. JoePa is retiring at the end of the season and was really close to being fired effective immediately. But what about Spanier and McQueary? They both heard the same allegations that Joe did, passed the same bucks that he did. As the University president, Spanier needs to step down just as coach Paterno is doing. EDIT: Spanier and Paterno both got fired.
And asssistant coach Mike McQueary, who was the original witness who saw Sandusky raping a child in the showers: I cannot even begin to fathom how he slept at night after "only" elevating the issue to his immediate superior.
As for Joe being a Republican, so what? Approximately half of the country is. He's 84 years old too, and old folks are even more predominantly conservative. IMHO there are plenty of assclowns in the GOP right now that are far, more of an embarrasment than JoePa. Some of them are even running for president :p
Of course, now with Spanier and Paterno fired, it draws attention to the Board of Trustees. It looks the trustees were aggressive in firing them, as a way to distance themselves from the scandal, doesn't it?
Everyone knows who Joe is and they are all bitching, no one knows who actually committed the crimes... Let's rail on JoePa some more.
"SUCCESS WITH HONOR"
"We do things the right way."
The president and coach have been fired. The Penn State trustees did the right thing.
At this point, I'm just waiting for Ray Gricar's name to come up. He was the county Attorney General when the initial allegations went out, and Gricar conducted an investigation, only to decide against pressing charges for lack of evidence.
You know what happened to Ray Gricar? Me neither! He has been an unperson since 2005. Wonder if his disapperance has anything to do with all this.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar
Thats right kids: the first prosecutor to investigate this shit went missing six years ago. Never found a body. Suicide? A hit? Just a freak coincidence?
"SUCCESS WITH HONOR"
"We do things the right way."
The president and coach have been fired. The Penn State trustees did the right thing.
No, they haven't cleaned house nearly enough for that to be considered the "right thing"...
At this point, I'm just waiting for Ray Gricar's name to come up. He was the county Attorney General when the initial allegations went out, and Gricar conducted an investigation, only to decide against pressing charges for lack of evidence.
You know what happened to Ray Gricar? Me neither! He has been an unperson since 2005. Wonder if his disapperance has anything to do with all this.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar
Thats right kids: the first prosecutor to investigate this shit went missing six years ago. Never found a body. Suicide? A hit? Just a freak coincidence?
Wow...that dude was on the show "Disappeared".
montanadave
11-09-11, 23:25
Here's a link to one attorney's argument in defense of Paterno's actions in the Sandusky scandal: http://thatlawyerdude.blogspot.com/2011/11/strong-defense-of-joe-paterno-why.html
He makes a compelling argument but my opinion is unchanged. Paterno displayed moral cowardice and a sexual predator continued to victimize children due, in part, to his inaction.
As for Joe being a Republican, so what? :confused:
Its pretty obvious that the overwhelming majority of the American media does not vote Republican and they have given him grief in the past about his support of GOP politicians.
The sports media wants him out so they can move to the next big story - Who replaces Paterno? Expect to see a ton of Urban Meyer in the upcoming weeks.
PS: Just watched 2 hours of ESPN trying to create a story of riots. (They did turn over a news van) They had 4 guys on campus. 3 said everything was peaceful, one guys claims all hell has broken loose despite the total silence around him. No video of "riots" were shown despite ESPN having cameras crews all over the campus.
The media in this country is beyond pathetic.
WHERE WERE THESE KIDS PARENTS? WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING?
Kid: Hey can i spend the night with the old man that runs the "foundation"?
Parent: How many other kids are going? What are the sleeping arrangments?
Kid: Oh its just going to be me...alone...by myself, with the 60yr old man. I'm going to sleep in his basement.
Parent: Oh ya sure...why not. *WTF!!!!!!*******
Answer that shouldve been given, Parent: HELL NO. As a matter of fact, i need to speak with this old man....
This is a horrible story but Joe Paterno has been made the central figure.
No, the idea of CoC means that he IS a central figure. He may not be criminally liable, but he's the HMFIC of that team, and is therefore responsible for the actions of his subordinates, just like a battalion CO or the like. It's in no way an unfair metric upon which to judge him, given that, at some point and at some level, he had a hand in deciding that a guy being his favoritest defensive coordinator EVAR in the world outweighed the fact that the same guy likes to shove his crank into little boys' rectums.
Had he wanted to, he could have used his false-god-sports-figure status and influence to literally or figuratively roast that guy over a bed of low coals, regardless of whether or not they had any legal avenue to push a no-shit case.
This is not a matter of the media making anybody into anything. This is a matter of the media justifiably ripping the living bejeezuz out of a bunch of grown, supposedly responsible men, who placed more importance on the imaginary sanctity of a collegiate sports program....a GAME....than doing what was right in an effort to protect the well-being of children.
He can be GOP, Dem, Libertarian, Whig, Ralph Nader, Scientologist, whatever....endstate still remains that whatever political leanings he has are quite appropriately eclipsed by his status as "NAMBLA sympathizer."
What's pathetic is the MSM-like sidestep of trying to place this in the "media witch-hunt" category based on his politics.
I think Paterno was just sacrificed because the administration needed to make a big statement and he's the most visible figure. They figured if they threw him out then that's saying they're doing something BIG about it, that they can say "Well, we got rid of the big guy, what else can you possibly want us to do?" Totally rotten politics and nothing more, and totally disgusting to destroy a man who's given his life to that place and all those people for decades.
Belmont31R
11-10-11, 18:53
I think Paterno was just sacrificed because the administration needed to make a big statement and he's the most visible figure. They figured if they threw him out then that's saying they're doing something BIG about it, that they can say "Well, we got rid of the big guy, what else can you possibly want us to do?" Totally rotten politics and nothing more, and totally disgusting to destroy a man who's given his life to that place and all those people for decades.
BS. The dude sat on his hands knowing one of his guys was raping little boys in the locker room, and knew about it for a while.
I don't care 'who' he is...everything else you do in life is tainted and diminished when you fail to take action on something like that.
wetidlerjr
11-10-11, 19:22
Hayes, Knight and now, Paterno. Ego, arrogance and money are a dangerous mixture. How the mighty have fallen... :cool:
BS. The dude sat on his hands knowing one of his guys was raping little boys in the locker room, and knew about it for a while.
I don't care 'who' he is...everything else you do in life is tainted and diminished when you fail to take action on something like that.
Belmont is 110% right. There is no valid excuse. Any justification is complete and utter bullshit. I don't often paint with a broad brush but in this case will. ANYONE who knew about this and did not take immediate action deserves to rot in jail and then burn in hell. They are cowards and in many cases were covering for others or trying to protect themselves. They are the lowest of the low. They let it keep happening.
No, the idea of CoC means that he IS a central figure. He may not be criminally liable, but he's the HMFIC of that team, and is therefore responsible for the actions of his subordinates, just like a battalion CO or the like. It's in no way an unfair metric upon which to judge him, given that, at some point and at some level, he had a hand in deciding that a guy being his favoritest defensive coordinator EVAR in the world outweighed the fact that the same guy likes to shove his crank into little boys' rectums.
Had he wanted to, he could have used his false-god-sports-figure status and influence to literally or figuratively roast that guy over a bed of low coals, regardless of whether or not they had any legal avenue to push a no-shit case.
This is not a matter of the media making anybody into anything. This is a matter of the media justifiably ripping the living bejeezuz out of a bunch of grown, supposedly responsible men, who placed more importance on the imaginary sanctity of a collegiate sports program....a GAME....than doing what was right in an effort to protect the well-being of children.
He can be GOP, Dem, Libertarian, Whig, Ralph Nader, Scientologist, whatever....endstate still remains that whatever political leanings he has are quite appropriately eclipsed by his status as "NAMBLA sympathizer."
What's pathetic is the MSM-like sidestep of trying to place this in the "media witch-hunt" category based on his politics.
Well said.
No, the idea of CoC means that he IS a central figure. He may not be criminally liable, but he's the HMFIC of that team, and is therefore responsible for the actions of his subordinates, just like a battalion CO or the like. It's in no way an unfair metric upon which to judge him, given that, at some point and at some level, he had a hand in deciding that a guy being his favoritest defensive coordinator EVAR in the world outweighed the fact that the same guy likes to shove his crank into little boys' rectums.
Had he wanted to, he could have used his false-god-sports-figure status and influence to literally or figuratively roast that guy over a bed of low coals, regardless of whether or not they had any legal avenue to push a no-shit case.
This is not a matter of the media making anybody into anything. This is a matter of the media justifiably ripping the living bejeezuz out of a bunch of grown, supposedly responsible men, who placed more importance on the imaginary sanctity of a collegiate sports program....a GAME....than doing what was right in an effort to protect the well-being of children.
He can be GOP, Dem, Libertarian, Whig, Ralph Nader, Scientologist, whatever....endstate still remains that whatever political leanings he has are quite appropriately eclipsed by his status as "NAMBLA sympathizer."
What's pathetic is the MSM-like sidestep of trying to place this in the "media witch-hunt" category based on his politics.
Your analogies don't work because you are making assumptions about the power Paterno had and the "command" structure that are erroneous. True, he had a tremendous amount of influence in SOME areas (PR, fundraising, and the AD) but he in no way ran PSU. I went there and lived there. He has as much influence on the administration of the school as the Queen of England does over Parliament. Some coaches like Bear Bryant did have tremendous power, but not JoePa. Especially in 2002 when the administration was trying desperately to get rid of him and still look good to the alumni and students.
There were investigations going on for a while with this guy. Paterno reported it to his boss, the AD and to the VP who was in charge of the campus police.
Right now, what he did or didn't do after that is 100% pure speculation. As is what he was told when he reported it. If it is not, show me the documentation proving otherwise.
This guy has it right:
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/10/the-end-of-paterno/?sct=cf_t11_a4
variablebinary
11-11-11, 01:51
Doing nothing is 100% unacceptable given the nature of the crimes. Especially if you are someone of prominence.
Even a hint of boys being raped should have motivated action.
This is seriously sick shit. As a human being, how could you just sit on the sidelines and pretend there is no problem.
Personally, people who prey on children, or harm children should be fed to pigs feet first.
This is not a case of Paterno hearing from some other staff person in another dept that some other faculty or staff may be molesting kids. This was one if his coaching staff, eye-witnessed by another of his own staff, raping a 10 yr old boy in a football locker room (Paterno's domain). It was his subordinates using his facilities, and the association of his football program in conjunction with the kids at risk program that enabled these rapes to occur. Paterno had a responsibility to shoot the asswipe in the head, drag his body through the streets, then report it to the police, then report to the administration, then notify the parents, then set the asswipe's remains on fire.
Your analogies don't work because you are making assumptions about the power Paterno had and the "command" structure that are erroneous. True, he had a tremendous amount of influence in SOME areas (PR, fundraising, and the AD) but he in no way ran PSU. I went there and lived there. He has as much influence on the administration of the school as the Queen of England does over Parliament. Some coaches like Bear Bryant did have tremendous power, but not JoePa. Especially in 2002 when the administration was trying desperately to get rid of him and still look good to the alumni and students.
There were investigations going on for a while with this guy. Paterno reported it to his boss, the AD and to the VP who was in charge of the campus police.
Right now, what he did or didn't do after that is 100% pure speculation. As is what he was told when he reported it. If it is not, show me the documentation proving otherwise.
This guy has it right:
http://joeposnanski.si.com/2011/11/10/the-end-of-paterno/?sct=cf_t11_a4
Did you go to Alabama when Bryant was coaching?
If I report the toilet isn't working to the boss and it gets blown off and you don't follow up, no big deal. I bet you do follow up, especially once you have to shit outside in a cat hole.
If you hear about or freaking witness a child's rape and your report is not followed up you follow up even if it makes life uncomfortable for you. Even if you loose your job. Even if it hurts your football program.
If it doesn't get squared away go to the press and it will get squared away.
While everyone is jumping on the "Bash Paterno Media Lynch Mob" (without knowing ANY facts) it seems the Attorney General, who head up this investigation and knows ALL the facts, is a little confused with the firing of Paterno...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/joe-paternos-firing-penn-state-attorney-general-concern/story?id=14925158&fb_ref=abc-fb-recs#.Tr02yVayDdM
Did you go to Alabama when Bryant was coaching?
No, but if there are any people that did and disagree with my assessment please state your case.
There was a famous story about Coach Bryant calling Paterno and asking him to call the PA Governor to get a police escort for his team from Harrisburg to State College; 100 miles. (They had to land the plane there.)
Paterno was shocked and amused by the request telling Bryant, "I don't know how thing work down in AL, but I don't have that kind of pull up here."
And he never did.
Nathan_Bell
11-11-11, 09:49
Bull, he WAS Penn State football. A multi-hundred million dollar enterprise that had been tied into state and local pride in PA. Just because he didn't have the label "Central Pennsylvanian God" in the organizational chart, didn't mean he didn't have that pull.
Everyone involved in this is at fault. McQueary for not going in and clocking Sandusky right then and there, Paterno for not using his immense influence to make certain that the right thing was done, Curley and Spanier for protecting their gravy train over everything else.
Spanier had a history of this, look at his behavior and statements regarding Mann and his Hockey Stick.
No, but if there are any people that did and disagree with my assessment please state your case.
There was a famous story about Coach Bryant calling Paterno and asking him to call the PA Governor to get a police escort for his team from Harrisburg to State College; 100 miles. (They had to land the plane there.)
Paterno was shocked and amused by the request telling Bryant, "I don't know how thing work down in AL, but I don't have that kind of pull up here."
And he never did.
While everyone is jumping on the "Bash Paterno Media Lynch Mob" (without knowing ANY facts) it seems the Attorney General, who head up this investigation and knows ALL the facts, is a little confused with the firing of Paterno...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/joe-paternos-firing-penn-state-attorney-general-concern/story?id=14925158&fb_ref=abc-fb-recs#.Tr02yVayDdM
You are talking to people who are convinced Joe was the one molesting the kids...
You are talking to people who are convinced Joe was the one molesting the kids...
I know. I also find it ironic that some of the same people who think the media distorts the truth when it comes to politics, think the they are being straight up with this one.
Hear me now, believe me later. There will shortly be new news on this that will shift the attentions to botched investigations. I think Joe will look a lot better in the next few weeks/months. In the end I strongly believe local LE will end up looking the worst.
There could have been an arrest in several years ago but the police dropped the case.
Is there anyone here who knows exactly what was discussed by Paterno and the administrators? What they told Paterno? No, nothing but speculation and assumptions of the worst.
I am unsure if it is a token title, as many are, but Schultz was "in charge" of the police to some degree (had oversight). One could argue that telling Schultz was sufficient.
Everyone knows Paterno, easy fall guy. Combine that with the BOT's desire to have him gone anyway and the move is pretty obvious.
montanadave
11-11-11, 12:33
Paterno and Penn State sold out a bunch of little kids to a pederast rapist to protect their precious football program and the millions of dollars it brought into the school and their own pockets.
They knew. And they continued to let this guy walk around their campus and show up at their games with little boys.
All you Joe Pa acolytes can make excuses for the guy till the cows come home. Then go look those victims in the eye and tell 'em Joe Pa and Penn State did everything they could to stop their old coaching buddy from molesting and raping them.
That's it. I'm out of this one.
Paterno and Penn State sold out a bunch of little kids to a pederast rapist to protect their precious football program and the millions of dollars it brought into the school and their own pockets.
They knew. And they continued to let this guy walk around their campus and show up at their games with little boys.
All you Joe Pa acolytes can make excuses for the guy till the cows come home. Then go look those victims in the eye and tell 'em Joe Pa and Penn State did everything they could to stop their old coaching buddy from molesting and raping them.
That's it. I'm out of this one.
So you have inside information?
ETA: And I think it should be clear, I am not arguing against JoePa no longer coaching. I am pissed about how they are half assed handling the situation and bowing to the media. JoePa should have his last home game and disappear into the night. Overall it does better for the situation and lets the focus actually be shifted to where it needs to be, the victims and the guy who committed the crimes. Everyone is forgetting Sandusky. I say this as a paying customer, who are you?
QuietShootr
11-11-11, 12:39
Sports. What is it about sports that makes the American male lose his brain entirely?
I mean, seriously. Why do people give a **** about some asshole running around with a ball? Is it because it's just mindless entertainment? Why do these people get such respect and power? They're PLAYING WITH A ****ING BALL.
Belmont31R
11-11-11, 12:42
I think as a leader he has the responsibility to see things through. Not just passing the issue down the line, and then acting like nothing happened.
No one thinks HE was the one who was raping little boys but when you sit on your hands or do the bare minimum (which did not fix the problem) then you're not living up to your responsibility.
Everyone has a moral obligation to do everything within their power to stop something like this from happening. Even if its sitting down with the police yourself and reporting what you were told. If that doesn't work go up to the state police, FBI, whatever. It doesn't mean he has to take the child rapist out back and put a bullet in his head. It just means once he was aware of it he had the obligation to be persistent in bring the guy to the attention of whoever it takes to get action.
The same should be held true for whoever else was aware of what happened and didn't push for law enforcement action.
Police heard Sandusky confess (or all but) to the mother of one of the boys in 1998...
While everyone is jumping on the "Bash Paterno Media Lynch Mob" (without knowing ANY facts) it seems the Attorney General, who head up this investigation and knows ALL the facts, is a little confused with the firing of Paterno...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/joe-paternos-firing-penn-state-attorney-general-concern/story?id=14925158&fb_ref=abc-fb-recs#.Tr02yVayDdM
At this point, no one knows all the facts. There has only been a grand jury hearing and the various criminal and civil trials have not yet happened. In addition, there is already 1 federal investigation just starting (Dept. of Edu) with other state and local inquiries likely to happen.
Belmont31R
11-11-11, 12:53
Police heard Sandusky confess (or all but) to the mother of one of the boys in 1998...
Did this just come out or was it known since then? Even if the police did nothing the school could have kept him out and not allowed him to use their facilities.
While everyone is jumping on the "Bash Paterno Media Lynch Mob" (without knowing ANY facts) it seems the Attorney General, who head up this investigation and knows ALL the facts, is a little confused with the firing of Paterno...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/joe-paternos-firing-penn-state-attorney-general-concern/story?id=14925158&fb_ref=abc-fb-recs#.Tr02yVayDdM
The whole situation is screwed up.
When Sandusky was investigated by campus police in 1998 for showing with Victim #6 in the campus facility, do you believe that Joe Paterno DID NOT know about it? Four years later McQuery tells Joe that he saw Sandusky, "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy" (according to Joe's statement in the grand jury report), how does he not think to himself that SOMETHING is seriously wrong since this is the second time he's heard of Sandusky involving a young boy? How does he and especially McQuery (who witnessed the anal raping) go on living like nothing happened everytime they see Sandusky?
Paterno and Penn State sold out a bunch of little kids to a pederast rapist to protect their precious football program and the millions of dollars it brought into the school and their own pockets.
They knew. And they continued to let this guy walk around their campus and show up at their games with little boys.
All you Joe Pa acolytes can make excuses for the guy till the cows come home. Then go look those victims in the eye and tell 'em Joe Pa and Penn State did everything they could to stop their old coaching buddy from molesting and raping them.
That's it. I'm out of this one.
You make a lot of claims but present no evidence.
I've been reading lots of commentary on this, both pro and con. The more I read, the more I think Paterno got the shaft.
You make a lot of claims but present no evidence.
I've been reading lots of commentary on this, both pro and con. The more I read, the more I think Paterno got the shaft.
You will love this then. Seems like the victims families didn't really want Paterno fired. Actually read the statement verbatim and then look to see how the media distorted it.
Read his entire statement here:
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/penn_state_board_of_trustees_g.html
Then look at how they selectively edited it here:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/11/10/penn-state-victimes-attorney.ap/index.html
Add then there is this:
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/missing-da-was-tied-to-sandusky-case
Not to feed the rampant speculation, but hasn't Paterno hired that Washington lawyer that defended Bush Sr. during the Iran-Contra affair?
arizonaranchman
11-12-11, 13:04
Where were the parents? Doesn't anybody watch their kids anymore after all the reports of abductions and rape in so many supposedly "safe" circumstances (school, church, scouts, etc)?
And how is it the guy who witnessed it happening did nothing but report it to Paterno? How about beating the living shit out of the pervert right then and there? How about calling the cops pronto and locking him up forever squared? How does someone witness a 10-yr old being raped and just "report it?!"
Exactly! He should have kicked his @$$ right there on the spot and called the cops plain and simple. Anything less makes you just as responsible for what happened.
[/I][/B]
Exactly! He should have kicked his @$$ right there on the spot and called the cops plain and simple. Anything less makes you just as responsible for what happened.
I wouldn't say that is makes him responsible per se. I would agree that it makes him a pussy...a very big pussy that should not be coaching college football.
ThirdWatcher
11-12-11, 20:04
Mission Statement of Penn State Altoona Intercollegiate Athletics VALUES
We believe in the primacy of the athlete as a student.
We respect each student as an individual and their personal welfare is our highest priority.
We view competition as the means to healthy respect of self and others.
We promote traditional values of honesty, integrity, commitment, and hard work as the foundation of our reputation and continuing success.
We are committed to providing coaches who regard themselves first and foremost as teachers.
Teamwork should prevail in all interactions among students, coaches, staff, and administrators.
Ain't karma a bitch?
Ain't karma a bitch?
Being that this, in actuality, has zero to do with sports, I don't see your point.
PSU was and still is the cleanest athletic program in history. What a sick man did who once drew a paycheck from the school doesn't change it. Nothing was done to gain a competitive advantage in sports, which is what statement is referring too.
In case you dont realize, PSU, Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, etc are academic institutions, not just football teams. There are 353 days a year when football isnt played.
variablebinary
11-13-11, 00:47
I wouldn't say that is makes him responsible per se. I would agree that it makes him a pussy...a very big pussy that should not be coaching college football.
I don't agree. You get a whiff of a child being raped on your watch and you do nothing, then you are complicit.
ThirdWatcher
11-13-11, 01:38
Well, I'm not a college boy, I'm just a street cop and I really doubt that no one knew this crap was going on... but what do I know?:confused:
BTW, I don't know a thing about PSU, but I can tell you that to achieve excellence, you must hold yourself to a higher standard.
I don't agree. You get a whiff of a child being raped on your watch and you do nothing, then you are complicit.
I'd agree that you have a moral responsibilty ( and probably legal in many states) to put foot to ass under those circumstances. I'd even say that you share some degree of responsibility by allowing the act to continue. However, I was try to keep the real spotlight of being ultimately responsible on the criminal who committed the crime.
EVERYONE involved needs to be arrested and charged as an accessory. Let them endure several hours of police interrogation. Given them ample opportunity to name names so the police can charge others who MAY have been involved. Then, everyone can retain council at their own expense. Make this process very public - perp walks, names in the papers.
Make a very public object lesson for the next guy who thinks protecting his stupid ****ing college foosball program is more important than protecting kids.
In most abuse cases, quite a few people know about it. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Penn State as an institution is in full cover-up mode and as such are acting as a criminal enterprise.
What I find interesting is that the media was so willing to base their unprecedented character attack on about 3 sentences of testimony and the rest speculation.
Paterno has demonstrated on dozens of occasions during his LONG career that his MO was to report things as soon as he knew of them to avoid the possibility of embarrassing the school or the football program. In 1997 he basically forfeited a bowl game by leaving 2 seniors, who were together responsible for 58% of all the points scored, home because one didn't get a "B" or better on his finals and the other because he took a suit from a suspected agent. Yet, after 61 years of this kind of behavior, the absolute worst is assumed of him.
What happens if, during the hearing, the Paterno says something as simple as "I was told by the AD and VP that the mater was forwarded to police and there is an ongoing investigation. They would ask you do not talk about it or interfere."
Could we expect an apology from all the media whores and the sheep who follow them? Well, since they never apologized to the Duke Lacrosse players after crucifying them for 6 months, I highly doubt it..
Being that this, in actuality, has zero to do with sports, I don't see your point.
PSU was and still is the cleanest athletic program in history. What a sick man did who once drew a paycheck from the school doesn't change it. Nothing was done to gain a competitive advantage in sports, which is what statement is referring too.
In case you dont realize, PSU, Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, etc are academic institutions, not just football teams. There are 353 days a year when football isnt played.
This is not about just 1 sick man who once drew a paycheck from PSU. There were at least 4 people (GA/Ast coach, JoePa, Athletic Director, and University VP) who allowed a suspected child predator access to PSU facilities to commit his crimes. As for JoePa, he may have met the minimum legal obligation to avoid prosecution, but his lack of follow through in making sure that the police were actually notified is stunning to those of us not associated with PSU. While the motivations of these officials will be exposed in future trails, for now it appears that they operated under a misguided sense of saving the university's reputation.
QuietShootr
11-13-11, 09:42
MUST....PROTECT....THE FOOBAW PROGRAM.....FOOOOOBAWWW!!!
What happens if, during the hearing, the Paterno says something as simple as "I was told by the AD and VP that the mater was forwarded to police and there is an ongoing investigation. They would ask you do not talk about it or interfere."
Could we expect an apology from all the media whores and the sheep who follow them? Well, since they never apologized to the Duke Lacrosse players after crucifying them for 6 months, I highly doubt it..
Paterno has already given testimony on this issue. In his GJ testimony, Paterno never mentions being told by officials that the police were investigating and that he was not to comment or interfere.
Another disturbing issue is that Paterno never became suspicious by the lack of police contact after reporting the alleged abuse. Most reasonable people would expect immediate police contact if the university officials were actually following through with their obligations.
If there was ever a case to support Campus Carry Laws, this is it - assuming that prevention of rape is sufficient reason to use lethal force in PA. Imagine the suffering that could have been avoided if an armed citizen had found Sandusky in the shower with Victim 1 in 2002.
ThirdWatcher
11-13-11, 15:55
What I find interesting is that the media was so willing to base their unprecedented character attack on about 3 sentences of testimony and the rest speculation.
That's pretty much the way it's always been. Legally, all involved are innocent until proven guilty but unbiased reporting doesn't sell newspapers. If you're gonna play in the big leagues, you better have thick skin.
What I find interesting is that the media was so willing to base their unprecedented character attack on about 3 sentences of testimony and the rest speculation.
Paterno has demonstrated on dozens of occasions during his LONG career that his MO was to report things as soon as he knew of them to avoid the possibility of embarrassing the school or the football program. In 1997 he basically forfeited a bowl game by leaving 2 seniors, who were together responsible for 58% of all the points scored, home because one didn't get a "B" or better on his finals and the other because he took a suit from a suspected agent. Yet, after 61 years of this kind of behavior, the absolute worst is assumed of him.
What happens if, during the hearing, the Paterno says something as simple as "I was told by the AD and VP that the mater was forwarded to police and there is an ongoing investigation. They would ask you do not talk about it or interfere."
Could we expect an apology from all the media whores and the sheep who follow them? Well, since they never apologized to the Duke Lacrosse players after crucifying them for 6 months, I highly doubt it..
The media was white washed by a dishonest DA in the Duke case. They crucified him and rightly so. The media also ran with the evidence that proved the accused were innocent. If I remember they ran like crazy with the ATM footage showing one it the accused was not at the scene of the crime.
Joe had a great career it looks like it was about 15 years to long. He knew what was going on and turned a blind eye. So did the school. Seriously why did Sanduaky retire at 55? It looks like he was forced out because he was a kiddie snapper. The school and state of PA is going to write some Huge Checks because if the way this was brushed under the carpet.
Even if Joe states the VP/AD and DA told him to steer clear he would have to be a moron not to see the end result which was nothing happened to his buddy Sandusky. How long should someone "keep quite" about child rape?
Always had respect for Paterno. No more. He knew and did nothing. Speaks volumes. JoPa better get ready for possible civil trials. He may die old, broke, and in disgrace. Which he would deserve.
variablebinary
11-14-11, 03:22
If you are upstairs watching TV, and your kid interrupts you and says, "dad, the the plumber is raping our neighbor's son in the basement", I doubt a single person on this forum would do either nothing, or the bare minimum.
That is exactly what Paterno did. Nothing. Scumbag.
Seriously why did Sanduaky retire at 55? It looks like he was forced out because he was a kiddie snapper. The school and state of PA is going to write some Huge Checks because if the way this was brushed under the carpet.
Perfect example of dangerous assumptions based on pure speculation.
Sandusky retired because, at the time, the state of PA was offering a retirement package for tenured professors (which he was also) and employees that was too good to pass up. Dozens of employees at the school took it up and knowing Joe would not retire anytime soon, he got out.
Also, his access to the school was granted to him and others based on that retirement contract. This is common at most schools. Paterno did not grant it or could he take it away.
If this story happened at a school without a high profile football program and famous coach the media would have concentrated on the Sandusky, the 2 people PSU administrators actually indicted, the inaction of the charity organization, the grade school administrators that were allowing Sandusky to take kids out of school (without parents knowledge), and the breakdown in the police investigation.
Instead they ignored all this and focused 99% of their attention on the football coach.
This is why a pure Democracy never works. 90% of the public are uninformed and too lazy to do anything about it.
So, what exactly are you saying?
You do understand that there was a cover up? No?
No matter how you slice it, the abuse was known and it was not reported for some time. Then everyone did their best CYA. Do you see it another way?
So, what exactly are you saying?
You do understand that there was a cover up? No?
No matter how you slice it, the abuse was known and it was not reported for some time. Then everyone did their best CYA. Do you see it another way?
What exactly are you saying?
You do understand that Paterno reported this to his superiors and it was not his own first hand knowledge, but "hearsay" from someone else?
No matter how you slice it, this seems to be a witch hunt based on Paterno's popularity or lack thereof (among certain groups). Everyone does there best to ignore the facts and the real perpetrators (both of the actual crime -- very few news stories on Sandusky -- and of the GA who actually SAW it happening and did not try and stop it nor report it, nor of the higher ups at Penn State who are being represented on the school's dime)
CarlosDJackal
11-14-11, 11:37
What exactly are you saying?
You do understand that Paterno reported this to his superiors and it was not his own first hand knowledge, but "hearsay" from someone else?
No matter how you slice it, this seems to be a witch hunt based on Paterno's popularity or lack thereof (among certain groups). Everyone does there best to ignore the facts and the real perpetrators (both of the actual crime -- very few news stories on Sandusky -- and of the GA who actually SAW it happening and did not try and stop it nor report it, nor of the higher ups at Penn State who are being represented on the school's dime)
I disagree with you on this. Paterno may have only had secondhand knowledge of this and he may have reported it to his "chain of command". But barring them coming back and saying "we investigated these allegations and found it to be false" he should have followed up accordingly.
If Penn State did not give him a definitive answer then he needed to pursue the matter with the Police (who also supposedly investigated but decided not to prosecute). At the very least Paterno should have brought the Assistant Coach into his office and with the University Legal Counsel present asked him straight up if the allegations were true. And depending on the answer he was given, taken the appropriate action which could just be documenting that the perpetrator denied all allegations and there isn't enough evidence to prove the contrary.
Paterno was HEAD COACH and is ultimately responsible for the conduct of his staff and his players on university grounds. If it is true that multiple players told him what they witnessed then he cannot plead ignorance. If it were only one player or even a couple who reported the same incident then there has to be doubt that it may have even occurred. But from multiple players from various times, this is what is called in LE circles as a "clue". IMHO, the players themselves should have reported these incidents to the school administration AND the Police once they saw that their coach was not taking any action.
I hope all those who are proven to be culpable in this sickest of crimes end up in jail as well. How a bunch of Supposedly "grown men" ignore the screams of a 10-year old who was being molested by one of their Assistant Coaches in their team showers not do anything is beyond my comprehension. I would have kicked that pervert's ass and cut off his balls right there and then. JM2CW.
CarlosDJackal
11-14-11, 11:41
If there was ever a case to support Campus Carry Laws, this is it - assuming that prevention of rape is sufficient reason to use lethal force in PA. Imagine the suffering that could have been avoided if an armed citizen had found Sandusky in the shower with Victim 1 in 2002.
I don't need a firearm to put a hurting on this scumbag had I had been within earshot of the incident. I would have probably been jailed for assault (at the very least), but it sure would have been all worth it.
At the very least Paterno should have brought the Assistant Coach
You do realize that the "assistant coach" was no longer an "assistant coach" and had been retired for several years on a type of buy-out early retirement that PA had offered several years before (which included the benefit of further facility use, which was not a benefit that Paterno gave him).
Paterno was not Sandusky's superior and legally had little to do with him or his access to facilities.
into his office and with the University Legal Counsel present asked him straight up if the allegations were true. And depending on the answer he was given, taken the appropriate action which could just be documenting that the perpetrator denied all allegations and there isn't enough evidence to prove the contrary.
Paterno was HEAD COACH and is ultimately responsible for the conduct of his staff and his players on university grounds. If it is true that multiple players told him what they witnessed then he cannot plead ignorance. If it were only one player or even a couple who reported the same incident then there has to be doubt that it may have even occurred. But from multiple players from various times, this is what is called in LE circles as a "clue". IMHO, the players themselves should have reported these incidents to the school administration AND the Police once they saw that their coach was not taking any action.
I hope all those who are proven to be culpable in this sickest of crimes end up in jail as well. How a bunch of Supposedly "grown men" ignore the screams of a 10-year old who was being molested by one of their Assistant Coaches in their team showers not do anything is beyond my comprehension. I would have kicked that pervert's ass and cut off his balls right there and then. JM2CW.
You do realize that the "assistant coach" was no longer an "assistant coach" and had been retired for several years on a type of buy-out early retirement that PA had offered several years before (which included the benefit of further facility use, which was not a benefit that Paterno gave him).
Paterno was not Sandusky's superior and legally had little to do with him or his access to facilities.
Chad, I think that most of our problems with Paterno's involvement center around discrepancies in his testimony to the grand jury and his recent media statements. The first problem is the significant discrepancy between his testimony and that of the Mike McQueary (the grad asst in Victim 2's case). McQueary testifies that he witnessed the anal rape of a 10-year old boy by Sandusky in the shower in 2002. On page 7 of the report, it is noted that McQueary told Paterno of the incident the day after it happened. McQueary has always maintained that he informed Paterno of the details of the assault. However, Paterno disputes that McQueary told him the details and testified that his report to PSU officials was that Sandusky was seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy." To me, this statement appears carefully crafted to meet his legal obligation of notifying PSU officials, while not drawing attention to his own lack of follow-up when nothing was done. After all, imagine the outcry if Paterno actually admitted that he was told of the anal rape of a 10-year old boy, but failed to immediately notify the police. It basically comes down to do you believe McQueary when he testifies giving a full account to Paterno, or do you believe Paterno when he says that he knew nothing of the details? Personally, I believe McQueary and think that Paterno probably perjured himself in his grand jury testimony. Unfortunately, we will probably never know for sure as the DA seems to focus on the Athletic Director and VP.
The second problem with this case is the fact that Sandusky continued to be involved with PSU football after his retirement and after these allegations.activities There are reports that he was even involved in recruiting activities as recently as last year ([url]http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/11/11/sandusky-recuited-hs-players-this-season/). All this despite uninvestigated allegations of child abuse. I feel that it was a big mistake for Paterno to have this guy involved with the program after the first allegations surfaced in 1998.
CarlosDJackal
11-14-11, 14:37
...The second problem with this case is the fact that Sandusky continued to be involved with PSU football after his retirement and after these allegations.activities There are reports that he was even involved in recruiting activities as recently as last year ([url]http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/11/11/sandusky-recuited-hs-players-this-season/). All this despite uninvestigated allegations of child abuse. I feel that it was a big mistake for Paterno to have this guy involved with the program after the first allegations surfaced in 1998.
Thank you! Like it or not THIS WAS PATERNO'S HOUSE and he should have addressed what was happening there during his watch. The bottom line is if he did hear about the assault, WHY DID PATERNO NOT PURSUE THE MATTER UNTIL SUCH A POINT THAT HE WAS SATISFIED THAT EITHER IT DID NOT HAPPEN OR THE APPROPRIATE ACTIONS WERE BEING TAKEN IF IT WAS HAPPENING? I bet you he would have done so if one of the victims was his own child or a child of a friend or family?
Let me put it this way, if you found out that your workplace's Janitor was using your office or cubicle to rape or sodomize minors during off office hours; are you just going to do nothing? Or are you going to make damned sure that the allegations are fully investigated and either proven to be true or false?
Even if all you did was report it to the Office Manager or your immediate supervisor; are you going to be happy with never hearing about it again? Or are you going to request a follow-up? If they never did anything about it; are you going to be content with this course-of-action?
I realize some of youe worship the ground Paterno walks on. But as far as I'm concerned, his culpability needs to be established or disproved. And just because he is a legend of the sacred game of football, he should not be given a bye in the upcoming investigations. JM2CW.
When I was just a lowly E3 in the Navy our ship ran aground. It was during the middle of the night. The CO was immediately relieved along with the Office of the Deck who was supposed to keep the ship from running aground. I often wondered why the CO who was asleep like the rest of the ship of 800+ were. It was explained to me this way: The CO is ultimately responsible for the anything and everything that happens on that ship. The CO left that OOD in charge because the CO believed him to be competent. Obviously the CO was wrong, therefore the CO was sent home packing.
Paterno is the same way. He was the CO of the football program there. Yes Paterno had higher ups, but he was the CO not the Commander in Chief. Paterno having been told by different people at different times that they each saw Sandusky doing anything from inappropriate to sexual indecencies with minor children, that should have been more than enough to dismiss his assistant coach and notify the authorities and let the legal system sort it out.
To argue that the trustees or anyone else had control over who coached under Paterno and who didn't, is simply not valid. It was and always has been the head coach who decides that. Therefore the fact that Joe let Jerry stick around especially after the second reporting of a similar act by a different person, makes Joe complicit. Having knowledge of a crime (purportedly or first hand knowledge) makes one an accessory after the fact.
If anything, Joe Paterno got of easy. He has a nice retirement package and is not going to be criminally held liable. If I was Joe, I would be counting my lucky stars. Paterno is not a scapegoat like so many are trying to claim. He had knowledge and the fact that in 1998 the Penn State Police were investigating Sandusky for inappropriate touching in the showers. Keep in mind that Jerry didn't retire until the end of the 1999 season.
Look at Shultz (in charge of the Police in 1998) and the A.D Time Curley who are facing charges for failing to report a crime. We know for a fact - Paterno knew and failed to report. Yet he is not facing charges. Scapegoat my ass.
When McQueary told Paterno, in 2002, that he saw Jerry sodomizing a boy in the shower just like Jim Calhoun, who reported to Paterno 2 years earlier a similar situation with a different boy, McQueary and his father were told by Paterno that he would have to take this to his superiors. Those superiors were Schultz and Curley (now facing charges), however, what they describe hearing from Paterno is nothing even close to what Calhoun and McQueary reported to Paterno. Joe described (according to Schultz and Curley) little more than horsing around. Mind you Paterno reported this 10 days after McQueary and his father informed Paterno.
If that alone doesn't convince you that Paterno simply tried his damnedest to ignore this problem, hoping it would just go away, then nothing will as you have simply made up your mind and refused to look at the evidence against him.
There is so much more to this story that only furthers the portrait of a knowledgable and culpable Joe Paterno.
Joe Paterno and the Penn State folks are lucky the do not have my as the D.A. I would be locking Joe, Schultz, Curley, Spanier, Second Mile President Jack Raykovitz, and I am sure I could find a few more.
A message needs to be sent here. Next to "Do not F#*K with kids" and if you do, you ALL will go down in flames.
Here is the break down:
Calhoun (2000)and McQueary (2002)-> anal rape.
|
-> Paterno: something of a sexual nature.
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-> Schultz: inappropriately grabbing of the young boy’s genitals.
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-> Curley: inappropriate conduct or horsing around.
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-> Spanier: conduct that made someone uncomfortable.
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-> Raykovitz: a ban on bringing kids to the locker room.
Since this is NOT a football program issue Paterno is NOT the "CO". The "CO" is the school president. The AD is the CO of all things athletic at any school.
Also, the Grand Jury testimony released is not the entire testimony but only a small portion of it. They put enough in there to explain the indictment of Sandusky and two other administrators.
Do you really think Paterno came, testified, said 3 sentences and split??
I'm still baffled as to why, with this story, level headed people who normally recognize that media manufactures and selectively reports things on a daily basis is somehow GTG with this story.
My guess is that because of the nature of the alleged crime people feel uncomfortable giving anyone allegedly involve the benefit of the doubt for feel they are somehow condoning child abuse.
Again, this is basic human behavior that or Founding Fathers recognized and this case is a perfect example of why our legal system is set up around the principle that the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecutor.........to save people from the knee-jerk lynch mob.
You do realize that the "assistant coach" was no longer an "assistant coach" and had been retired for several years on a type of buy-out early retirement that PA had offered several years before (which included the benefit of further facility use, which was not a benefit that Paterno gave him).
Paterno was not Sandusky's superior and legally had little to do with him or his access to facilities.
Actually not true. There were two investigations in 1998 (1998 comes before 1999) by the campus police (Schultz) and the Centre County D.A. Ray Gricar who setup a sting in the home of one of the kids he molested in which he heard first-hand Sandusky beg the kid's mom for forgiveness (forgiveness of what?). Unfortunately, there was not enough evidence to convict solely based on the kid's testimony. D.A. Gricar 'had a "bitter taste" for the football program and Paterno (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/gricars_nephew_on_1998_sandusk.html)'
But let's assume your argument was in fact valid. Regardless of whether or not a person works for you or not. If you have knowledge of a crime committed, you are required to report it or you become what is called an "Accessory after the fact (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm)". Paterno is undeniably an accessory after the fact. :big_boss:
Set your personal prejudices aside and look at all this objectively. I personally could care less about football (i know - I am not a real man cause I don;t care for football). To me Paterno is just another person. He is nothing special in my eyes. I am not blinded to the evidence by that fact.
Since this is NOT a football program issue Paterno is NOT the "CO". The "CO" is the school president. The AD is the CO of all things athletic at any school.
Also, the Grand Jury testimony released is not the entire testimony but only a small portion of it. They put enough in there to explain the indictment of Sandusky and two other administrators.
Do you really think Paterno came, testified, said 3 sentences and split??
I'm still baffled as to why, with this story, level headed people who normally recognize that media manufactures and selectively reports things on a daily basis is somehow GTG with this story.
My guess is that because of the nature of the alleged crime people feel uncomfortable giving anyone allegedly involve the benefit of the doubt for feel they are somehow condoning child abuse.
Again, this is basic human behavior that or Founding Fathers recognized and this case is a perfect example of why our legal system is set up around the principle that the burden of proof is ALWAYS on the prosecutor.........to save people from the knee-jerk lynch mob.
So, is your position that Paterno never new that Sandusky was seen anally raping a 10-year old boy? If so, this means that you believe McQueary to be a lier when he claims that he told Paterno all the details.
Or, do you think that he knew the details, but did not himself immediately go to the police AND did not give a compete account to his superiors (i.e. fondling or doing something of a sexual nature is a far cry from raping a kid in the shower)?
When you think about it, these are the only 2 options based on the grand jury testimony and ignoring media reports. Personally, I'm betting on the latter being closer to the truth...
In high school I loved playing and now enjoy watching football. In high school Penn State was one of my favorite teams. I don't watch college football anymore.
I think you are too close to this. You are not being rational.
Why do you really think Sandusky retired? In 2009 Joe Paterno was making 1.03 million. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=4215919 Looks like he is at 1.5 million now.
Not sure what the D Coordinator was making but I bet it's a good salary. The stated reason does not pass the smell test. He could have easily stayed at Penn State or moved on to another program, good college coaches make very good money. Check it out:
http://www.coacheshotseat.com/SalariesContracts.htm
Why do you think he started the Second Mile? Was it the stated purpose of helping at risk youth or was it because he knew these were the best kids to molest? Sandusky is clearly not telling people the truth, he is saying what he believes is best.
Perfect example of dangerous assumptions based on pure speculation.
Sandusky retired because, at the time, the state of PA was offering a retirement package for tenured professors (which he was also) and employees that was too good to pass up. Dozens of employees at the school took it up and knowing Joe would not retire anytime soon, he got out.
Also, his access to the school was granted to him and others based on that retirement contract. This is common at most schools. Paterno did not grant it or could he take it away.
If this story happened at a school without a high profile football program and famous coach the media would have concentrated on the Sandusky, the 2 people PSU administrators actually indicted, the inaction of the charity organization, the grade school administrators that were allowing Sandusky to take kids out of school (without parents knowledge), and the breakdown in the police investigation.
Instead they ignored all this and focused 99% of their attention on the football coach.
This is why a pure Democracy never works. 90% of the public are uninformed and too lazy to do anything about it.
So, is your position that Paterno never new that Sandusky was seen anally raping a 10-year old boy? If so, this means that you believe McQueary to be a lier when he claims that he told Paterno all the details.
Or, do you think that he knew the details, but did not himself immediately go to the police AND did not give a compete account to his superiors (i.e. fondling or doing something of a sexual nature is a far cry from raping a kid in the shower)?
When you think about it, these are the only 2 options based on the grand jury testimony and ignoring media reports. Personally, I'm betting on the latter being closer to the truth...
My position is that all we have is a few sentences of what is most likely pages of testimony that has not been released.
Based on Paterno's previous behavior patters over the last 61 years, his MO when his, the teams, or the school reputation could be damaged is to immediately make everything public.
My first gut instinct was that there is WAY more to the story. And anyone who would actually believe Paterno would purposely cover up and act like this knows absolutely nothing about the man except what the media muckrakers have told them.
It is a sad to see the joy so many people get from piling on and bringing down people.
Chad, I think that most of our problems with Paterno's involvement center around discrepancies in his testimony to the grand jury and his recent media statements. The first problem is the significant discrepancy between his testimony and that of the Mike McQueary (the grad asst in Victim 2's case). McQueary testifies that he witnessed the anal rape of a 10-year old boy by Sandusky in the shower in 2002. On page 7 of the report, it is noted that McQueary told Paterno of the incident the day after it happened. McQueary has always maintained that he informed Paterno of the details of the assault. However, Paterno disputes that McQueary told him the details and testified that his report to PSU officials was that Sandusky was seen "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy." To me, this statement appears carefully crafted to meet his legal obligation of notifying PSU officials, while not drawing attention to his own lack of follow-up when nothing was done.
I find McQueary not in the least bit credible in his claims. First, the Grand Jury was a minimum of 3 years later. Most people are not going to remember the level of detail of what he said to his boss the next morning.
Second, it sounds an awful lot like McQueary is trying to CYA because HE dropped the ball and did not report it immediately but waited to call his dad, and then his coach on the next day. It sounds more like he is trying to deflect attention away from him self.
I certainly don't remember the details of conversations I had 3 years ago. I may remember the conversation and the gist of it, but not the details.
I don't believe McQueary did either.
After all, imagine the outcry if Paterno actually admitted that he was told of the anal rape of a 10-year old boy, but failed to immediately notify the police. It basically comes down to do you believe McQueary when he testifies giving a full account to Paterno, or do you believe Paterno when he says that he knew nothing of the details? Personally, I believe McQueary and think that Paterno probably perjured himself in his grand jury testimony. Unfortunately, we will probably never know for sure as the DA seems to focus on the Athletic Director and VP.
The second problem with this case is the fact that Sandusky continued to be involved with PSU football after his retirement and after these allegations.activities There are reports that he was even involved in recruiting activities as recently as last year ([url]http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/11/11/sandusky-recuited-hs-players-this-season/). All this despite uninvestigated allegations of child abuse. I feel that it was a big mistake for Paterno to have this guy involved with the program after the first allegations surfaced in 1998.
You are probably right, that he (Sandusky) should not have been involved after the first report in 1998. However, that does not excuse the railroading he (Paterno) is undergoing now.
I am in no way a Penn State supporter. I am a BYU alum and have absolutely no ties to Penn State or Paterno. I have however read many articles about the current situation, from both sides of the argument, and feel that Paterno is getting railroaded and becoming a scapegoat, deflecting attention from both the perpetrator, McQueary, who bears a tremendous amount of blame for basically looking the other way, and from the higher ups who basically white washed the whole thing.
So, is your position that Paterno never new that Sandusky was seen anally raping a 10-year old boy? If so, this means that you believe McQueary to be a lier when he claims that he told Paterno all the details.
He may sincerely believe he told Paterno all the details. His GJ testimony was at least 3 years later and now we are at 9 years later. He has no way in hell of remembering the details of what he told him now, after the fact, with the intervening time. Whether he told him he saw an anal rape or sexual horseplay (or whatever the words were).
Or, do you think that he knew the details, but did not himself immediately go to the police AND did not give a compete account to his superiors (i.e. fondling or doing something of a sexual nature is a far cry from raping a kid in the shower)?
When you think about it, these are the only 2 options based on the grand jury testimony and ignoring media reports. Personally, I'm betting on the latter being closer to the truth...
If he truly saw an anal rape, that may have left him too traumatized to be able to full articulate it. There are a lot more options than you want to allow.
Hindsight is 20/20
Actually not true. There were two investigations in 1998 (1998 comes before 1999) by the campus police (Schultz) and the Centre County D.A. Ray Gricar who setup a sting in the home of one of the kids he molested in which he heard first-hand Sandusky beg the kid's mom for forgiveness (forgiveness of what?). Unfortunately, there was not enough evidence to convict solely based on the kid's testimony. D.A. Gricar 'had a "bitter taste" for the football program and Paterno (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/gricars_nephew_on_1998_sandusk.html)'
But let's assume your argument was in fact valid. Regardless of whether or not a person works for you or not. If you have knowledge of a crime committed, you are required to report it or you become what is called an "Accessory after the fact (http://www.lectlaw.com/def/a007.htm)". Paterno is undeniably an accessory after the fact. :big_boss:
Set your personal prejudices aside and look at all this objectively. I personally could care less about football (i know - I am not a real man cause I don;t care for football). To me Paterno is just another person. He is nothing special in my eyes. I am not blinded to the evidence by that fact.
Uhh, Paterno did report it. What he is being faulted for is not following up and making it his own investigation when it appeared nothing happened. Even though that was not his responsibility.
As I said, I have ZERO connection to Penn State and Paterno and have never really liked Penn State as a team or him as a coach.*
*(I have driven through Pennsylvania several times but have no clue how close I came to Penn State and I never slept at a Holiday Inn Express in the state)
I don't feel any joy in any of this. I want rapist and enablers held accountable for their actions or inaction. It is about protecting children not a coach, football program or college. It is about the kids.
He may sincerely believe he told Paterno all the details. His GJ testimony was at least 3 years later and now we are at 9 years later. He has no way in hell of remembering the details of what he told him now, after the fact, with the intervening time. Whether he told him he saw an anal rape or sexual horseplay (or whatever the words were).
If he truly saw an anal rape, that may have left him too traumatized to be able to full articulate it. There are a lot more options than you want to allow.
Hindsight is 20/20
It sounds like you are proposing a third option that McQueary suffered a form of post-traumatic stress resulting in limited amnesia that prevented him from recalling all of the details when he met with Paterno 24 hours after the event. Sounds perfectly logical :rolleyes: - Paterno even said that McQueary was very upset in their meeting.
One quick question: Is it your position that he was still suffering from this amnesia when he met with the VP and athletic director 1 week later since they also deny being told the details (i.e. "inappropriately grabbing the boy's genitales" and "inappropriate conduct and horsing around). Maybe the DA should drop the perjury charges against these two since McQueary may not have regained his faculties.
Uhh, Paterno did report it. What he is being faulted for is not following up and making it his own investigation when it appeared nothing happened. Even though that was not his responsibility.
That last sentance is perhaps our biggest disagreement. Fortunately, the PSU Board of Directors and most contributors to this thread disagree with that sentiment. All he had to do was call his boss and ask, "Hey, what ever happened with that little problem of Sandusky raping a kid in the shower?" It is the reason for ethics clauses in employememt contracts.
It sounds like you are proposing a third option that McQueary suffered a form of post-traumatic stress resulting in limited amnesia that prevented him from recalling all of the details when he met with Paterno 24 hours after the event. Sounds perfectly logical :rolleyes: - Paterno even said that McQueary was very upset in their meeting.
you are putting words in my mouth.
I said:
If he truly saw an anal rape, that may have left him too traumatized to be able to full articulate it. There are a lot more options than you want to allow.
"amnesia" is your word, not mine.
Like I said, he may truly believe he provided all the details whether he actually did or did not. And Paterno may truly believe, honestly, that he did not, whether he did or did not. In traumatic experiences, we may think we say one thing and a person hears another thing.
But I don't believe that he can actually recall the details of what he told Paterno 3+ years later. Sure, he can recall telling him something happened and he may think he told him all the details, but that does not mean he did (nor does it mean he didn't).
So basing your argument on his recollection is not very sound.
One quick question: Is it your position that he was still suffering from this amnesia when he met with the VP and athletic director 1 week later since they also deny being told the details (i.e. "inappropriately grabbing the boy's genitales" and "inappropriate conduct and horsing around). Maybe the DA should drop the perjury charges against these two since McQueary may not have regained his faculties.
I never said he was suffering from "amnesia" so I cannot answer your question.
Is there a written record of this meeting a week later or is it again, his recollection versus other people's recollections? Remember, he has a stake in it too -- he wants it to look like he did his best and so has a motivation to make up his recollection. (I am not saying he did or didn't -- I am just saying he has the same motivation to that you ascribe to Paterno)
That last sentance is perhaps our biggest disagreement. Fortunately, the PSU Board of Directors and most contributors to this thread disagree with that sentiment. All he had to do was call his boss and ask, "Hey, what ever happened with that little problem of Sandusky raping a kid in the shower?" It is the reason for ethics clauses in employememt contracts.
Fortunately, saner minds prevail elsewhere. Where they don't rush to judgement and project their own anger onto the situation.
you are putting words in my mouth.
I said:
"amnesia" is your word, not mine.
Like I said, he may truly believe he provided all the details whether he actually did or did not. And Paterno may truly believe, honestly, that he did not, whether he did or did not. In traumatic experiences, we may think we say one thing and a person hears another thing.
But I don't believe that he can actually recall the details of what he told Paterno 3+ years later. Sure, he can recall telling him something happened and he may think he told him all the details, but that does not mean he did (nor does it mean he didn't).
So basing your argument on his recollection is not very sound.
I never said he was suffering from "amnesia" so I cannot answer your question.
Is there a written record of this meeting a week later or is it again, his recollection versus other people's recollections? Remember, he has a stake in it too -- he wants it to look like he did his best and so has a motivation to make up his recollection. (I am not saying he did or didn't -- I am just saying he has the same motivation to that you ascribe to Paterno)
There are certain conversations that I've had that are burned into my memory for a lot longer than 1 decade. I have little doubt that McQueary probably feels the same about this one since discussing a witnessed child rape is not an everyday occurance.
Furthermore, it is inconceivable to many of us that Paterno would not carefully collect the details of what was actually witnessed before reporting to higher authorities when discussing such an important issue (unless he was intentionally trying to be uninformed for plausible deniability). Failure to ask such basic questions is itself cause for termination if he planned to relay the incident to superiors rather than walk McQueary over to the police station.
Finally, the standards for criminal indictment and getting fired are very different. The only way that Paterno kept his job after the Victim #2 incident is if he immediately took McQueary to the police station (after first kicking him in the balls for not intervening on the spot) to file an official report. This would be the case even if McQueary gave him a vague story about Sandusky "fondling a young boy and doing something of a sexual nature," which he admits that he was told. He might have kept it if he had promptly followed-up with his boss to make sure the authorities were notified. The fact that this was not a responsibility listed in his contract is meaningless because it falls under a standard ethics and human decency clause.
Fortunately, saner minds prevail elsewhere. Where they don't rush to judgement and project their own anger onto the situation.
Yea, I'm a little angry - we are now up to 40 counts of child sexual abuse. Some were likely preventable if members of the PSU administration had acted with more conviction.
But that does not mean that my thinking is clouded. BTW, I think the quote that you were looking for is, "clearer minds will prevail." Being angry does not make me insane, and the clearer minds already fired Paterno ;).
Penn State officials, Paterno included, put the welfare of their precious (and HUGELY profitable) football program ahead of the welfare of children who were being serially groomed and victimized by a child molester.
Read the grand jury transcripts and try not to gag. (http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/uploadedFiles/Press/Sandusky-Grand-Jury-Presentment.pdf)
The fact that these guys knew what they knew when they knew it, and failed to take action which would have prevented Sandusky from sexually abusing another kid is simply inexcusable. They all bear some accountability.
No sympathy for Paterno. He failed to protect innocent kids being abused by a monster. Out of self-interest and self-preservation. Whatever his accomplishments as a coach, a leader, and a mentor, they are forever diminished by this act of moral cowardice.
This is probably the most I've completely agreed with you about every single thing you said. Scumbags the lot of them. Anyone who KNOWS about a 10 year old child being raped and doesn't TRY AND STOP IT is second only to the rapist in being a subhuman piece of shit.
The fact that people placed a higher priority on a ****ing sports program mystifies me.
variablebinary
11-15-11, 05:14
Sick bastard.
Jerry Sandusky:
“Well, I could say that, you know, I have done some of those things. I have horsed around with kids. I have showered after workouts. I have hugged them and I have touched their legs, without intent of sexual contact. But, um… uh … So, if you look at it that way … uh … there are things that … that … uh … wouldn’t … uh, you know, would be accurate.”
Later Costas asked him if he was sexually attracted to young boys, and Sandusky takes nearly 20 seconds to say “no”.
Costas: Are you a pedophile?
Sandusky: No.
Costas: Are you sexually attracted to young boys? To underage boys?
Sandusky: Am I sexually attracted to underage boys?
Costas: Yes.
Sandusky: Sexually attracted? You know, I enjoy young people. I love to be around them. I … but, no, I am not sexually attracted to young boys.
Sandusky also explained what happened when Mike McQueary allegedly witnessed him raping a boy in the shower.
“OK, we were showering and … and horsing around. And he (the boy) actually turned all the showers on and was actually sliding across the floor and um and we were, as I recall, possibly, like, snapping a towel and horseplay.”
Folks - We really need to think about this. If you are at your place of work and you saw, for example, someone raping a female co-worker. Are you simply going to just go tell your boss? Not likely. You are more inclined to call the cops. However, let's assume you do decide to tell your superior. If you think the law says that you told your employer so that makes you no longer responsible, then I implore you to think again.
So even if we choose not to believe McQueary or Calhoun who both saw the same thing 2 years apart, two different victims, being raped by the exact same person (this is a big leap, but let's go with it for a minute) then at the very least we must all agree that McQueary and Calhoun told Paterno that they saw Sandusky molesting the boys.
I could be wrong here but... I am pretty sure molestation of a minor is against the law and still a crime in at least Pennsylvania. Therefore, Paterno has even admitted in this albeit, very limited presentment, of having knowledge of a crime and not reporting it to the "AUTHORITIES." That means the Police. So it could be argued that Paterno reported it to the campus police since he spoke to Schultz who was in charge of the Campus Police. Is that good enough? No not quite. Here is why:
Calhoun - tells Paterno of a similar situation as McQueary, 2 years earlier (anal rape).
McQueary - tells Paterno in 2002 of a similar situation (anal rape).
Paterno - admits to the GJ that he told McQueary to stop because it was getting too graphic (this statement alone tells us soooooo much about what McQueary told Paterno and that he knew a lot more detail than what he told his superiors)
Schultz - Sandusky's actions sounded "not that serious" after what Paterno described to him. I call B.S. since Schultz admitted to understanding that it was of a "sexual nature or something" which would still be a crime worth investigating - he contradicts himself.
Curley - Paterno told him that it was inappropriate conduct or horsing around (again, I call B.S. - he knew more). Why would Paterno tell Curley one thing and Schultz another. The Presentment doesn't clearly state that Paterno told both of them in the same meeting.
Personally, Calhoun and McQueary should have called the cops immediately. Screw just telling the higher ups at the school. Knowledge of a crime and not reporting it to the police is in itself a crime. They are just as guilty in my eyes.
I believe the following points to be indisputable facts:
Fact 1 - The Campus Police (Schultz) headed up an investigation (http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/who_knew_what_about_jerry_sand.html) of allegations in 1998
Fact 2 - Calhoun informed Paterno of anal rape by Sandusky of a minor in 2000 and Paterno never did anything about it period. Knowledge of a crime!
Fact 3 - McQueary and his father together informed Paterno of anal rape in 2002 by Sandusky of a minor. Knowledge of a crime!
Fact 4 - Paterno admits to not wanting to hear the "graphic detail" of what McQueary was telling him and that he understood it was "something of a sexual nature" with a minor. Knowledge of a crime!
Fact 5 - Schultz admits that Paterno informed him of "inappropriately grabbing of the young boy’s genitals." Knowledge of a crime!
Fact 6 - Curley admits that Paterno informed him of "inappropriate conduct" in which one of them is lying - I think it is Curley.
Fact 7 - Paterno told Schultz and Curely enough to warrant informing President Spanier of the situation. So it must have been serious enough to bother the president of the school. If they thought no crime or anything was going on why tell the president?
Fact 8 - All persons named above had some kind of knowledge of the crime and FAILED miserably to report it to local authorities. The only real question is how much did they know. We know that Paterno had explicit knowledge on more than one occasion. Enough to warrant informing his superiors (the second time around)
Most of the people above, including Calhoun, McQueary and his father, Schultz, Curley at the very least all had knowledge of criminal behavior by Sandusky with a minor. This is all based on what they all have testified to the GJ.
All these folks had a duty to report this to the local police. Had they done that, we would not be having this conversation. Paterno would still be the head coach and enjoying his life right now. Yet none of them informed the police. The only people to ever informed the police we the mothers of the boys ass raped by that sick F@#K Sandusky and these assholes knew about it and let happen.
Just ask yourself why a fully grown man would be in the shower with any child but his own son (at that age even that is questionable to many) and holding hands walking out of the shower. All this alone is reasonable suspicion to warrant calling the authorities.
This is clearly a case in which nobody at PSU wanted to ruin Sandusky's reputation or the reputation of the school. Which of course has ultimately happened anyway.
Some of your "facts" are incorrect and most of them are loaded with your regurgitation of media speculation. Paterno was not informed of "anal rape" in 1998 and what he was told in 2002 is debated.
As I said before, what was released to the public was the Grand Jury presentment. There are probably hundreds of pages of testimony.
Also, as I said before, it is my opinion that the this story will steer towards failures on the part of law enforcement, the role of the charity, and the role of the schools where the kids attended. And it looks like it already has.
It also seems that media is starting to acknowledge that maybe people were rushing to judgement last week with hardly ANY facts.
From the article you linked to: "But if gossip, rumor and speculation have been rampant this week about Spanier, Paterno and McQueary, the facts are more complicated"
Also, it should be known that news paper is famous for their hatred of Paterno.
Belmont31R
11-15-11, 08:48
Sick bastard.
Jerry Sandusky:
Later Costas asked him
This reminds me of Michael Jackson having little boys sleeping in his bed then denying molesting them.
No sane human adult male puts little boys in their bed or takes showers with them horsing around and slapping each other with towels.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2011/11/mike_mcqueary_says_he_didnt_ju.html
"But in emails obtained by NBC News, McQueary reportedly wrote: "I did the right thing…you guys know me…the truth is not out there fully…I didn't just turn and run…I made sure it stopped…I had to make quick tough decisions.'"
I wonder about the nature of the death threats against McQueary. Are people angry that his testimony brought down Paterno, or are they mad that he did not do more to stop the rape of Victim#2?
I wonder about the nature of the death threats against McQueary. Are people angry that his testimony brought down Paterno, or are they mad that he did not do more to stop the rape of Victim#2?
I highly doubt they are about bringing Paterno down but the recent media coverage would lead the sheep to feel that way.
This depiction of Paterno having God like status could only be believed by people that have a distant understanding of the culture at PSU. Paterno's "power" peeked in about 1986 and has been declining ever since. Also, the school always went out of their way to avoid being branded as a "football school" and the administration rarely even acknowledged the football team; instead highlighting the academic initiatives.
Prior to this "scandal" in was widely known that he was walking on thin ice with the administration. They had tried to get him to step down in 2004 and he negotiated 1 more year. In 2005 he was 2 seconds from being undefeated and went 11-1 winning the Big 10.
There was rumors he would go after 2007. But then he went 11-2 in both 2008 and 2009 and won a Big 10 title again so they extended his contract thru this year. He went 7-6 last year and this years team has been underachieving despite their record.
His influence at PSU, especially in 2002, smack in the middle of his 4 losing seasons, was FAR FAR less than the media depiction.
Now, with some high profile coaches showing interest in PSU, he had ZERO chance of coaching next year BEFORE the Sandusky story broke. The administration has been looking for a way to unload him for almost a decade.
But I also understand that that doesn't make the story as interesting.
QuietShootr
11-15-11, 10:55
This reminds me of Michael Jackson having little boys sleeping in his bed then denying molesting them.
No sane human adult male puts little boys in their bed or takes showers with them horsing around and slapping each other with towels.
****ing exactly. I wouldn't even want to be around MY OWN kids nekkid (if I had any) let alone somebody else's.
http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/images/smilies/puke.gif
CarlosDJackal
11-15-11, 10:59
...This depiction of Paterno having God like status could only be believed by people that have a distant understanding of the culture at PSU...
Is this why just last weekend the students rallied around him and caused a riot tipping over a news van and such? It is pretty obvious that the Penn State administration does not hold him in as much high regard as they once did or their students. Otherwise, they never would have asked him to step down.
But it seems to me that there are still a lot of "Paterno Worshipers" (such as yourself) who will argue for his innocence regardless of the facts presented to them. The disgusting thing about all of this is, you forget that there are innocent victims in all of this. Innocent victims that your hero could have helped all those years ago had he not taken the Ostrich method of dealing with the issues that were occurring IN HIS FACILITY.
You and the other Paterno disciples can argue all you want. But the facts seem to bear that HE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND IN HIS ATTEMPT TO KEEP HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM AWAY FROM ANY CONTROVERSY, HE CHOSE TO BURY HIS HEAD IN THE SAND. IIRC, Oklahoma State took the same tack when their players were raping coeds at an alarming rate back in the early 90s.
With any luck the guilty parties will be on the receiving end of the same kind of treatment from Bubba and his buddies when they are found guilty.
Nathan_Bell
11-15-11, 11:09
Yeah, the Academic initiatives. Like Mann's Hockey stick?
Spanier had that "investigated" as well. He apparently decided that so long as the grant $$$ kept coming in, "Who cares?"
I highly doubt they are about bringing Paterno down but the recent media coverage would lead the sheep to feel that way.
This depiction of Paterno having God like status could only be believed by people that have a distant understanding of the culture at PSU. Paterno's "power" peeked in about 1986 and has been declining ever since. Also, the school always went out of their way to avoid being branded as a "football school" and the administration rarely even acknowledged the football team; instead highlighting the academic initiatives.
Prior to this "scandal" in was widely known that he was walking on thin ice with the administration. They had tried to get him to step down in 2004 and he negotiated 1 more year. In 2005 he was 2 seconds from being undefeated and went 11-1 winning the Big 10.
There was rumors he would go after 2007. But then he went 11-2 in both 2008 and 2009 and won a Big 10 title again so they extended his contract thru this year. He went 7-6 last year and this years team has been underachieving despite their record.
His influence at PSU, especially in 2002, smack in the middle of his 4 losing seasons, was FAR FAR less than the media depiction.
Now, with some high profile coaches showing interest in PSU, he had ZERO chance of coaching next year BEFORE the Sandusky story broke. The administration has been looking for a way to unload him for almost a decade.
But I also understand that that doesn't make the story as interesting.
I highly doubt they are about bringing Paterno down but the recent media coverage would lead the sheep to feel that way.
As do I, but if they were, it'd far less about any direct fault of the media than it would be the fault of a rabid overemphasis upon the importance of sports by certain individuals.
Those idiots exist. Hell, I got in a scuffle 6 days ago with a guy willing to throw punches because I described fantasy football as "Dungeons & Dragons for meatheads."
Ergo, there's morons out there that'd be willing to kill a guy over something as paltry as an ousted favorite "elite" college football coach....instead of being willing to kill that same guy because he's a waste of sperm.
This reminds me of Michael Jackson having little boys sleeping in his bed then denying molesting them.
No sane human adult male puts little boys in their bed or takes showers with them horsing around and slapping each other with towels.
And like Jackson, this sick **** created an attraction to bring victims to him under the guise of helping children. The Neverland Ranch was the Gingerbread House right out of a Grimm Fairytale.
Anytime a grown man wants to help young children and be surrounded by them, watch closely.
I taught a youth martial arts program at the local PAL for years. I liked my students, I even spotted them for a Happy Meal a few times, but much as I thought they were good kids and enjoyed teaching / training them I didn't consider them peers, didn't want to have sleepovers and it would completely creep me the **** out to have to shower with kids even in a gym shower setup.
OldState - I stand corrected. Calhoun reported Sandusky sucking the kid's dick in the shower and not anally raping him.. I guess that makes it okay then, you pompus ass.
You know OldState - If I were a fan of football, I would be shit happy that Paterno only lost his job as coach and not facing criminal charges with possible jail time. The evidence that he at least had a credible idea that something was going on and did not report it to the police, is completely overwhelming. Undeniable to a reasonable person.
I will end my debate with this:
The entire incident leaves many questions besides "What the everloving ****?" Why did Joe Paterno only tell his boss after the incident and not the police which he was required to do so? Why didn't university officials report this to police, which they were required to do so? Why did the graduate assistant continue to work for a football program that did approximately nothing in response to an eyewitness report of the sexual assault of a child on University property? Is the legacy of a retired football coach really that ****ing important that we need to endanger the health and well being of children in order to let him have his unabated shower jollies?
University action against the guiltiest looking parties has been swift now that the entire world knows the extent of Sandusky's alleged predatory behavior. He was indicted on Friday, Nov. 4th and banned from campus on Saturday, Nov 5th. Sunday the 6th, the Board of Trustees held an emergency meeting, during which it was decided that both Athletic Director Tim Curley and Gary Schultz, who was in charge of the University police, would be resigning in order to devote more time to fighting the perjury charges stemming from their lying in front of a Grand Jury. University President Spanier and Head Coach Joe Paterno were fired Wednesday the 9th (IIRC).
At this point, they could blow up Happy Valley and declare it illegal in the state of Pennsylvania to utter the word "football," but if the allegations are true (odds are), nothing the University, Paterno, et al. or Coach Sandusky does can undo the fact that eight boys were sexually abused on Penn State's campus. Any response by the University is the organizational equivalent of a kid who sets his neighbor's dog on fire and attempts to seamlessly replace it with a dead squirrel wearing Barbie clothes.
Clearly your hero has even admitted he should have done more:
"This is a tragedy. It is one of the great sorrows of my life. With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more." ~ Joe Paterno
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-15-11, 13:06
Call me crazy, but here's how I see it:
If I see a man anally raping anyone, I'm stopping it right there. I'm telling my brain to shut up, turning on the adrenaline, and forcefully making sure that the rape stops.
If I was unable to stop it, I am calling the police. After making a report with the police and continuing to try to protect the victim, I will then let my superiors know what the deal is.
If one of my Marines comes to me and report a sexual assault, I am not only legally bound to report, but I am ethically and morally obligated to let everyone that needs to know in on it. Not only that, but I will follow up on the situation, making sure scumbags dont get to continue to be scumbags.
Everyone from the rapist, to the witness, to the people whose obligation it was to report and yet neglected to do their duty are all guilty. I'll risk my career, my life, and my reputation to keep something like this from happening to anyone, these men should have been the same way. Its all just disgusting, but hey, call me crazy.
But it seems to me that there are still a lot of "Paterno Worshipers" (such as yourself) who will argue for his innocence regardless of the facts presented to them. The disgusting thing about all of this is, you forget that there are innocent victims in all of this.
I'm as far from a Paterno worshiper as you can get an have been exceedingly vocal in my opinion that he should have retired years ago. He has brought this program down in recent years because of his inability to adapt.
The only thing I am arguing is for is due process and that people should not judge until they have all the facts.
OldState - I stand corrected. Calhoun reported Sandusky sucking the kid's dick in the shower and not anally raping him.. I guess that makes it okay then, you pompus ass.
Hmm, you sound like a real intellectual. You really need to reread the Grand Jury presentment. I kept my comments polite and to the point without shading them with emotion and machismo. Obviously you can't.
If you were to take 2 minutes to consider facts instead of hear-say and conjecture you may have a differing opinion. Or are you afraid of being called pedophile yourself if you contradict the angry mob?
You should work for MSNBC. They would love a guy like you there.
Call me crazy, but here's how I see it:
If I see a man anally raping anyone, I'm stopping it right there. I'm telling my brain to shut up, turning on the adrenaline, and forcefully making sure that the rape stops.
And most people would after hearing the the media's version of events. But I would like to remind every that the testimony released in the presentment is probably 1% of what they have.
McQueary is now saying that there was a confrontation and that the testimony to that effect was made. For the record this guy made the news a few years ago for breaking up a knife fight.
In the testimony released so far , he did say Sandusky saw him. So would you believe a scenario where Sandusky sees McQueary, Sandusky is unfazed and continues raping the kid while Mcqueary runs away?
Evidently McQueary says there is much more to story and that he did intervene:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/8846729-419/mike-mcqueary-i-made-sure-it-stopped.html
I'm still baffled as to why, with this story, level headed people who normally recognize that media manufactures and selectively reports things on a daily basis is somehow GTG with this story.
It's not the "lynching" of Joe that bothers me so much. It's that McQueary walked in on a rape in progress and did nothing.
You know what he did? He went home and called is dad. Asked what to do. Alas, like son like father, and daddy dearest also chose not to contact the police immediately.
Joe Patero, his coaching staff, and everyone at the University are not rapists or perverts. Sexual assault is a very particular kind of crime. No, they're members of a wider-reaching and more destructive type of degenerate: THEY ARE COWARDS.
There are certain conversations that I've had that are burned into my memory for a lot longer than 1 decade. I have little doubt that McQueary probably feels the same about this one since discussing a witnessed child rape is not an everyday occurance.
Yet, I would bet, if you were to make a transcript of one of those "certain conversations" and could get a video tape of that conversation, that there would be wide discrenpancies. We like to think we can remember details like that, but in reality, humans in general don't remember details like that over long periods of time.
You are a cop, right? Then you should know about the general unreliability of eye witness accounts. (If not, Google is your friend)
Furthermore, it is inconceivable to many of us that Paterno would not carefully collect the details of what was actually witnessed before reporting to higher authorities when discussing such an important issue (unless he was intentionally trying to be uninformed for plausible deniability). Failure to ask such basic questions is itself cause for termination if he planned to relay the incident to superiors rather than walk McQueary over to the police station.
Finally, the standards for criminal indictment and getting fired are very different. The only way that Paterno kept his job after the Victim #2 incident is if he immediately took McQueary to the police station (after first kicking him in the balls for not intervening on the spot) to file an official report. This would be the case even if McQueary gave him a vague story about Sandusky "fondling a young boy and doing something of a sexual nature," which he admits that he was told. He might have kept it if he had promptly followed-up with his boss to make sure the authorities were notified. The fact that this was not a responsibility listed in his contract is meaningless because it falls under a standard ethics and human decency clause.
But it seems to me that there are still a lot of "Paterno Worshipers" (such as yourself) who will argue for his innocence regardless of the facts presented to them.
What about your "Paterno Haters" who are convinced of his guilt, of something, despite the facts.
The disgusting thing about all of this is, you forget that there are innocent victims in all of this. Innocent victims that your hero could have helped all those years ago had he not taken the Ostrich method of dealing with the issues that were occurring IN HIS FACILITY.
You and the other Paterno disciples can argue all you want. But the facts seem to bear that HE HAD KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND IN HIS ATTEMPT TO KEEP HIS FOOTBALL PROGRAM AWAY FROM ANY CONTROVERSY, HE CHOSE TO BURY HIS HEAD IN THE SAND.
Gee, you must have access to facts that no one else has.
IIRC, Oklahoma State took the same tack when their players were raping coeds at an alarming rate back in the early 90s.
With any luck the guilty parties will be on the receiving end of the same kind of treatment from Bubba and his buddies when they are found guilty.
I just finished reading this entire thread. It makes me a little ill that so many excuses are being made for the obvious ostrich farm that PSU was operating for over a decade. I didn't realize that ostriches made such good university administrators, police chiefs, athletic directors and coaches. Or is it the other way around???
Sandusky is a depraved, pathetic and utterly disgusting pedophile.
McQueary is a coward and despite violating the law requiring him to report a felony sexual assault he witnessed, is not being charged with anything. He hasn't even lost his job yet!
Paterno is an ostrich at best, and a coward at worst. Everyone pretty much agrees that he didn't violate the law. After all, he didn't witness the crime. All he did was the absolute minimum, after which he went and buried his head in the sand for a decade or so. Even he admits that not enough was done, so why would anyone argue with him on that point?
Curley and Shutlz are under indictment for covering up the crimes. With at least one credible witness in their midst, the mere fact that an investigation failed to launch is incredibly damning.
Spainer was the skipper of the boat for the entire fiasco. It is unreasonable to expect he didn't have full knowledge of these events, and if he didn't then he's guilty of gross ineptitude. All indicators point to him being aware. His background is in sociology and family counseling. I'll bet he could write us a book on how the victims and families should have been treated.
The 2002 allegation wasn't even the first. There were at least two others from 1998 and 2000. What was done? Sandusky was investigated and arrested a whopping 13 years after the first report! yet between 1998 and 2008, NO ONE intervened to prevent Sandusky from using his charity and the PSU campus as his own personal chicken farm!
So what we have here is criminal acts, cowardice, a cover up and multiple heads in the sand for extended periods of time. Sorry, no free passes here today! Every last filthy, stinking one of them is getting what they deserve. Every last one of them has earned every bit of scorn they now face. Paterno gets no free pass from anyone with righteous moral outrage. We can all sit back and wait till the criminal and civil courts pick the meat off their bones before passing final judgement. But there's nothing wrong with moral outrage at the institutions that enabled a serial rapist to extend his predations WAY longer than he ever should have. Whether you want to admit it or not, the PSU institution that is the Cult of JoPa is among them.
All you Paterno apologists can spin this however you want. All it does is make you look bad. It makes you look like an apologist for an institution that failed, even by his own admission. You're standing on quicksand. Are you sure you want to keep standing there on this subject??? :nono:
For better or worse, 22 years of service as an NCO has given me a keen eye for institutional cover ups, and fairly good understanding of all sorts of sexual misconduct.
This looks exactly like every other rape cover up I have ever seen. Your mileage may vary....
In just a few days we went from "nothing happened" to "well, maybe, there was some naked horseplay in the shower."
All you Paterno apologists can spin this however you want. All it does is make you look bad. It makes you look like an apologist for an institution that failed, even by his own admission. You're standing on quicksand. Are you sure you want to keep standing there on this subject??? :nono:
I don't know. It appears that the "Paterno Haters" are jumping to conclusions that the evidence does not support (at least yet) and letting their anger cloud their judgement and their interpretation of the known facts.
The "apologists" are being rational and objective in looking at the known facts and working from them, not letting our anger color our judgement.
Personally, I don't give a care about Paterno. I have ZERO connection. He tendered his resignation, and based on the facts as we know them today, that should have been accepted. Firing him was disgraceful.
Paterno said he would resign at the end of the football season. They chose to fire him. What is disgraceful about that?
Paterno said he would resign at the end of the football season. They chose to fire him. What is disgraceful about that?
Exactly that.
Based on emotional (over)reaction a guy lost his job. He was not the predator. But people seem to be equating him with one.
Based on accounts of his life, he was an extremely caring and respectful and decent person. He deserved better.
It's not the "lynching" of Joe that bothers me so much. It's that McQueary walked in on a rape in progress and did nothing.
You know what he did? He went home and called is dad. Asked what to do. Alas, like son like father, and daddy dearest also chose not to contact the police immediately.
Where did it EVER say that McQueary did nothing??? This was just posted on ESPN:
A source familiar with the state investigation of child sexual assault allegations against Jerry Sandusky tells ESPN's Tom Rinaldi that Mike McQueary stopped Sandusky's alleged rape of a boy as young as 10 years old that McQueary witnessed at a shower at the Penn State practice facility in 2002.
"The source characterized McQueary, a key witness in the case, as "credible" and "consistent" in describing the events of the alleged attack to investigators."
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7238963/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-mike-mcqueary-stopped-alleged-assault-source-says
Also, a text message from McQueary to a staff member was obtained by NBC:
"... you are the first person I have told this ... and I don't know you extremely well ... and I have been told bye officials to not say anything ...
I did stop it, not physically ... but made sure it was stopped when I left that locker room ... I did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police .... no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds ... trust me.
Do with this what you want ... but I am getting hammered for handling this the right way ... or what I thought at the time was right ... I had to make tough impacting quick decisions.
This is off record ... again ... I have not and will not say anything to anyone else."
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7239609/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-text-mike-mcqueary-email
Are you Paterno/McQueary/PSU haters interested in any other evidence, or is the brief overview made public in the Grand Jury PRESENTMENT....PRESENTMENT...enough for you to convict???
I am glad McQueary took some action and went to the police. There are more questions than answers. Did he leave the naked rapist in the shower with the naked 10/11 year old victim? If so this still falls way short of doing the right thing.
As far as Paterno is concerned, he lost the right to resign. He would have also been an enormous distraction to the school he loves and the program he built. He sounds like a good man. Like all of us he has flaws. His are just under the microscope and in the pubic eye.
McQueary is a coward and despite violating the law requiring him to report a felony sexual assault he witnessed, is not being charged with anything. He hasn't even lost his job yet!
This is probably one of the best posts that I've seen in GD Forum - thank you for the hard work.
As for McQueary, I'd love to clip his feathers, but I don't think that it will happen. From a criminal justice perspective, he is the cooperating witness for the State and his position as a graduate assistant did not subject him to the mandatory reporting statutes. His civil exposure is also minimal since the identity of Victim 2 is still unknown which means no one can claim any damages from his inaction. PSU has most of the civil liability and the deep pockets - get you checkbooks ready boys.
As for his job, it will be difficult to fire him due to state laws that protect whistleblowers. It gets a little murky on this point because his termination would be for not doing enough rather than retaliation for testifying. However, there a real chance that he could successfully sue PSU if they fired him, and there is probably a fear about what he could say regarding a pervasive cover-up. Finally, I'm sure that the DA has asked PSU to retain him through the trial so that Sandusky's defense cannot use his termination to attack his character.
Where did it EVER say that McQueary did nothing??? This was just posted on ESPN:
A source familiar with the state investigation of child sexual assault allegations against Jerry Sandusky tells ESPN's Tom Rinaldi that Mike McQueary stopped Sandusky's alleged rape of a boy as young as 10 years old that McQueary witnessed at a shower at the Penn State practice facility in 2002.
"The source characterized McQueary, a key witness in the case, as "credible" and "consistent" in describing the events of the alleged attack to investigators."
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7238963/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-mike-mcqueary-stopped-alleged-assault-source-says
Also, a text message from McQueary to a staff member was obtained by NBC:
"... you are the first person I have told this ... and I don't know you extremely well ... and I have been told bye officials to not say anything ...
I did stop it, not physically ... but made sure it was stopped when I left that locker room ... I did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police .... no one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds ... trust me.
Do with this what you want ... but I am getting hammered for handling this the right way ... or what I thought at the time was right ... I had to make tough impacting quick decisions.
This is off record ... again ... I have not and will not say anything to anyone else."
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7239609/penn-state-nittany-lions-scandal-text-mike-mcqueary-email
Are you Paterno/McQueary/PSU haters interested in any other evidence, or is the brief overview made public in the Grand Jury PRESENTMENT....PRESENTMENT...enough for you to convict???
This email is an off the record communication to a friend that contradicts several elements of his grand jury testimony (the police were never notified and his conversation with the VP was a week after the rape). It is meaningless to this case. I'm going by what he said while under oath - not his pathetically vague defense of horrific inaction that came after the public outcry.
BTW, the proper response to witnessing any rape is to call 911 after incapacitating the attacker.
This email is an off the record communication to a friend that contradicts several elements of his grand jury testimony (the police were never notified and his conversation with the VP was a week after the rape). It is meaningless to this case. I'm going by what he said while under oath - not his pathetically vague defense of horrific inaction that came after the public outcry.
1) Did you read the 1st part???
"A source familiar with the state investigation of child sexual assault allegations against Jerry Sandusky tells ESPN's Tom Rinaldi that Mike McQueary stopped Sandusky's alleged rape of a boy as young as 10 years old that McQueary witnessed at a shower at the Penn State practice facility in 2002."
2) I highlighted the word Presentment several times. You do understand the difference with what you are reading and the full complete testimony (the other 99%) that was NOT released, correct?
Here you go; the definition of a legal presentment:
presentment n. a report to a court by a grand jury, made on its own initiative without a request or presentation of evidence by the local prosecutor, that a "public" crime (illegal act by public officials or affecting the public good) has been committed.
Hell, even Bob Costas said that there has been too much speculation with this case. Sometimes I feel like we still live in the 1600's.
This email is an off the record communication to a friend that contradicts several elements of his grand jury testimony (the police were never notified and his conversation with the VP was a week after the rape). It is meaningless to this case. I'm going by what he said while under oath - not his pathetically vague defense of horrific inaction that came after the public outcry.
So, all of a sudden, this special moment that he will never forget, he can no longer remember? The one that was embedded in his memory indelibly?
As for his job, it will be difficult to fire him due to state laws that protect whistleblowers. It gets a little murky on this point because his termination would be for not doing enough rather than retaliation for testifying. However, there a real chance that he could successfully sue PSU if they fired him, and there is probably a fear about what he could say regarding a pervasive cover-up. Finally, I'm sure that the DA has asked PSU to retain him through the trial so that Sandusky's defense cannot use his termination to attack his character.
So, McQueary is protected by whistleblower laws, while Paterno isn't, for doing the exact same thing? (reporting the incident to his superior)? Why the double standard?
Exactly why is this a whistleblower case?
I am glad McQueary took some action and went to the police. There are more questions than answers. Did he leave the naked rapist in the shower with the naked 10/11 year old victim? If so this still falls way short of doing the right thing.
Again, here we have total speculation with the presumption of guilt.
This type of thinking is very dangerous stuff. Ever read about the Salem Witch Trials?
So, McQueary is protected by whistleblower laws, while Paterno isn't, for doing the exact same thing? (reporting the incident to his superior)? Why the double standard?
Exactly why is this a whistleblower case?
It is not a whistleblower case unless PSU trys to fire McQueary. His status as a whistleblower comes from being a cooperating witness for the State against employees of PSU (VP and athletic director) who committed crimes (failure to report and perjury) while acting in their capacity as university officials / state employees.
Paterno is not a cooperating witness for the State or whistleblower because he was not present in the meeting between McQueary and the PSU officials where Sandusky's rape of Victim #2 was discussed. In other words, Paterno never himself witnessed a crime by University officials. Finally, do you really think that Paterno wants to try and sue PSU for his job? Just imagine what the sharks would do to him under deposition...
This type of thinking is very dangerous stuff. Ever read about the Salem Witch Trials?
Slow down big guy. This is a gun forum. We are all friends here shooting the shit. No one is getting burned at the stake.
montanadave
11-15-11, 21:48
Slow down big guy. This is a gun forum. We are all friends here shooting the shit. No one is getting burned at the stake.
Actually, we might not want to rule that out just yet. Check this out: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/15/catholic-official-church-aims-to-confront-abuse-work-with-educators-after-penn-state-scandal/?hpt=hp_t2
The Roman Catholic Church wants to lend their expertise in confronting sexual abuse scandals to Penn State. :blink:
You can't make this shit up.
Seriously, I think I hear hoofbeats.
Actually, we might not want to rule that out just yet. Check this out: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/11/15/catholic-official-church-aims-to-confront-abuse-work-with-educators-after-penn-state-scandal/?hpt=hp_t2
The Roman Catholic Church wants to lend their expertise in confronting sexual abuse scandals to Penn State. :blink:
Well, they have had a good head start in trying to figure it out and know lots of the wrong things to do. Experience is one way of becoming an expert. Kind of the reason we train with our firearms too.
montanadave
11-15-11, 22:43
Seriously, dude, it's called irony. As in the tradition of classical Greek tragedy.
And your inability to appreciate the irony and the tragedy of this whole ****ing debacle is tragic in itself.
Get some air.
Seriously, dude, it's called irony. As in the tradition of classical Greek tragedy.
And your inability to appreciate the irony and the tragedy of this whole ****ing debacle is tragic in itself.
Get some air.
Ah yes, a master.
I bow down to you. He that is so full of irony in every single post he makes that he is the god of irony.
And based on the responses of most people who would rather let their anger overcome their ability to be rational and objective, I rather think I appreciate the tragedy much more than most here.
Exactly that.
Based on emotional (over)reaction a guy lost his job. He was not the predator. But people seem to be equating him with one.
Based on accounts of his life, he was an extremely caring and respectful and decent person. He deserved better.
I don't think it is emotion or over reaction. They guy FAILED to stop a child molester. Now that doesn't make him a predator, but it also doesn't mean he is innocent of any wrong doing.
If the accounts of his life you reference are true, then he certainly had the capacity to know what should have been done and failed to do it. I think he is guilty of placing a higher priority on a school sports program than a child that was being sexually exploited by a member of that organization.
I also suspect if it was your kid, you'd feel a little differently about the whole thing.
montanadave
11-16-11, 05:59
Ah yes, a master.
I bow down to you. He that is so full of irony in every single post he makes that he is the god of irony.
And based on the responses of most people who would rather let their anger overcome their ability to be rational and objective, I rather think I appreciate the tragedy much more than most here.
Well, I see you've grasped sarcasm. That's a start.
As for Sandusky and Penn State's complicity in his heinous acts, I'm quite content to let it play out. But I'm not gonna hold my breath. The current scramble amongst the cast of characters in this sordid affair to lawyer up and cover their ass insures that Sandusky's last victim will likely be the truth.
Given that Penn State spent five years fighting efforts of the public to learn how much they were paying Paterno, a football coach at a state university, methinks the steady diet of big bucks from their vaunted football program has dulled their appetite for the truth.
I don't think it is emotion or over reaction. They guy FAILED to stop a child molester. Now that doesn't make him a predator, but it also doesn't mean he is innocent of any wrong doing.
Do you even read the previous posts or have you even looked at any of the updates on this case? Sounds like you and many others made up your mind on day one and then went in the tank.
Given that Penn State spent five years fighting efforts of the public to learn how much they were paying Paterno, a football coach at a state university, methinks the steady diet of big bucks from their vaunted football program has dulled their appetite for the truth.
This is an absurd statement. Your upset that their "big buck" program tried to hide the fact they were paying their legendary coach less than their school president? (the other $500k came from outside endorsements).
Yeah, definitely a conspiracy there.
For a coach of Paterno's stature the going rate is $4M. He never asked for more money and gave over $5M back to the school when he sign his 5 year contract.
Has anyone acknowledged that they are NOT reading the full record of testimony???
ESPN just did last night. Their legal analyst explained to the ignorant lynch mob exactly what a Grand Jury Presentment is and that they can include or omit any testimony they wish.
They usually include just enough to explain why the are bringing an indictment. Being that Paterno and McQueary were NOT indicted, they had no reason to share all the details.
Has anyone acknowledged that they are NOT reading the full record of testimony???
ESPN just did last night. Their legal analyst explained to the ignorant lynch mob exactly what a Grand Jury Presentment is and that they can include or omit any testimony they wish.
They usually include just enough to explain why the are bringing an indictment. Being that Paterno and McQueary were NOT indicted, they had no reason to share all the details.
Yes I will acknowledge that on the condition that you acknowledge that the presentment clearly shows that it is reasonable to believe that Paterno had knowledge to some degree that Sandusky was/is a predator.
The presentment has multiple witnesses stating that Paterno was told about it. So unless you or anyone else believes it is some kind of conspiracy theory and they are all out to get Joe, the Presentment shows he had knowledge and failed to act.
How much knowledge, clearly not enough to adamantly face charges. However, as the school does not have to follow the same level of scrutiny that the courts do, they felt that there was sufficient reason to reasonably think that Paterno as well as all the others had enough knowledge to do something about it and notify the police. Which they failed to do.
I am a very strong supporter of the 4th and 5th amendments. With that said, I am neither judge, jury, prosecutor, etc. Therefore I neither have duty or responsibility to reserve judgment on Paterno or anyone else. I have the right to form my opinion based on the information I have. As do you. You may choose to ignore facts already released and known to everyone, I choose not to. If during the trial, new facts come out and I change my mind, then fine. But I cannot see any facts coming out in the trial that will show Paterno had no knowledge whatsoever about the sexual assault of young children.
Especially after Paterno said himself in a statement that he regrets not doing more to stop it. That tells me and it should tell you that he knew enough of what was going on that he could have done a lot more. Yet he failed to do it.
There is no harder evidence that Paterno's own words.
Not ignoring facts, just acknowledging there are very little. Call me crazy but I like to reserve my opinions, especially when the charges are this great, until I do have all the facts. Not just 2% of the story.
So you will acknowledge that you have based your opinion on very few facts and mostly speculation, and I will acknowledge that based on very little factual knowledge and mostly speculation it may appear Paterno and McQueary covered this up?
Seems reasonable.
You realize that you are also acknowledging that you don't care or need to gather all the facts before you pass judgement on people. That doesn't sound like someone who would be a fan of the 5th Amendment to me.
Do you even read the previous posts or have you even looked at any of the updates on this case? Sounds like you and many others made up your mind on day one and then went in the tank.
No, honestly the whole thing sickens me and I'm trying to avoid it.
Are you now saying that Paterno had no knowledge of the incidents, that nobody reported it to him?
There is a 1 fact that is not in dispute - the police were not immediately notified by either Paterno or McQueary after the alleged rape of Victim #2. The presentment specifically states on page 11 that police records were subpoenaed by the grand jury and no report was ever filed.
The grand jury presentment gives enough factual detail to know that McQueary believes that he witnessed a rape of a young boy. He may or may not have intervened on some level to stop the assault based on recent media statements. However, only a moron would not immediately call 911 to insure the future safety of the child. This level of inaction is more than enough cause for termination under most instances, and his continued employment at PSU is a function of the special circumstances of this case that we've previously discussed.
As for Paterno, he admits in the presentment that he knew of Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy." While most of us feel that he knew more (or should have known more), this level of detail is established and not contested by Paterno. Knowledge of fondling is also more than enough for any rational person to immediately call 911, and not doing so immediately is a violation of common sense. What is worse, he admits to having no contact with the police until the recent investigation which should have been a clear indication that his report to university officials about the Victim #2 incident was not being investigated.
It is also common knowledge that he continued to associate in a professional manner with Sandusky for another 8 years after being aware that he was accused of serious misdeeds with at least 1 minor. This alone gets you fired in my industry.
I will acknowledge that based on very little factual knowledge and mostly speculation it may appear Paterno and McQueary covered this up?
It is 2011, the incident happened in 2002. I think it should be easy to understand why people believe there was a cover up.
The FACT that nobody who knew about it thought immediately calling the cops was the right thing to do is pretty damning.
I would need more details to convict anyone of a crime, but I know enough for me to opine they both lack moral courage, and probably chose to protect their careers and or the school/football program over a child.
I got this as a PM and got permission to post it. He make my point better than I can.
"Since I cannot yet post in the GD forum because my post count is below 200, I wanted to send you a PM on the Penn State Scandal thread that is currently raging.
M4Carbine.net prides itself on finding out actual information before passing judgement on which firearm, part, optic, technique, trainer or etc is better than another. Knowing and understanding information, then making decisions based off of that information is what sets M4C aside and it's why I read/post here. This should be no different.
In regard to the PSU scandal, there are many who are jumping to conclusions based on a very little bit of information. They're looking at the situation and saying well it looks like a rape & coverup on the surface so that's what it must be. Well, a DPMS looks like a Colt on the surface but we know they aren't the same.
Before anyone can pass a final judgement, the facts need to be brought out in full, with names, places and a timeline. A couple indictments have already been issued but that doesn't mean that more won't be. Just because Paterno hasn't been charged doesn't mean he won't be.
Yes, it's a tragedy that kids were taken advantage of and raped. Yes it seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State, but I think you're taking alot of unwarranted flak just because you're trying to stop people from jumping to conclusions.
Facts first, then decide. Right now it's a media swirl with everyone and their brother trying to say something or report something about it. I'll wait to see what happens in court.
Just like to add that if this was at some no name university, I think it's likely that nobody would give a shit beyond seeing the report on the news and saying aww that's sad. The only reason this is such a big deal is because of the big name and monetary value associated with the PSU football program.
-Moltke"
Yes, it's a tragedy that kids were taken advantage of and raped. Yes it seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State, but I think you're taking alot of unwarranted flak just because you're trying to stop people from jumping to conclusions.
Facts first, then decide.
Works both ways. Some people are trying to declare him innocent when those facts aren't exactly there either. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions.
As noted by the guy who sent the PM, kids got raped. And it "seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State" and that is more than enough for a guy in a position of responsibility to LOSE HIS JOB.
Should it be determined that he knew about it and did NOTHING which resulted in ongoing and continuous crimes of the same nature, I think he would be criminally negligent and should be convicted.
But that remains to be seen. That anyone would defend these people given what we know so far is incomprehensible to me and a lot of other people. Course I'm not a football fan but even if it were I'd hope I could prioritize accordingly.
Works both ways. Some people are trying to declare him innocent when those facts aren't exactly there either. I don't think anyone is jumping to conclusions.
As noted by the guy who sent the PM, kids got raped. And it "seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State" and that is more than enough for a guy in a position of responsibility to LOSE HIS JOB.
Should it be determined that he knew about it and did NOTHING which resulted in ongoing and continuous crimes of the same nature, I think he would be criminally negligent and should be convicted.
But that remains to be seen. That anyone would defend these people given what we know so far is incomprehensible to me and a lot of other people. Course I'm not a football fan but even if it were I'd hope I could prioritize accordingly.
No one is saying he is innocent and the testimony that we do have says that his did something. Exactly what has yet to be determined but that hasn't stopped people from speculating and assuming the worst.
No one is saying he is innocent and the testimony that we do have says that his did something. Exactly what has yet to be determined but that hasn't stopped people from speculating and assuming the worst.
And I doubt that speculation will be far off base, OJ was found innocent but most of us can "speculate" the truth of the matter. And I think most of our worst assumptions will likely be accurate.
But should it turn out to be that the worst thing that occurred is what we already know, well that is still pretty bad.
variablebinary
11-16-11, 21:56
I also suspect if it was your kid, you'd feel a little differently about the whole thing.
Hair splitting is always easier when you have no skin in the game.
Bet you everything if anyone on this forum had a kid that was molested while Paterno was the honcho, and he knew the deal on any level, he'd be in the crosshairs as much as the actual molester...literally.
Paterno is about as innocent as Eric Holder in F&F...
That whole "I sorta knew a little about something" just doesn't wash with me. These kids were anal raped. Consider that for a moment. If anyone anywhere is in a position to stop children from being anal raped, and they don't, they are far from innocent, and may they burn in hell.
I've not seen anyone on this thread assume or state the worst case scenario. Google "Mark Madden" and "The Dennis and Callahan Show" if you want to see what the worse case scenario looks like (FWIW, I think this is horrible speculation and journalism). I'd say that our comments in this thread have been measured and fair. At this point, most of us simply think that Paterno deserved to loose his job while additional investigations will determine his civil and criminal liability.
And I doubt that speculation will be far off base, OJ was found innocent but most of us can "speculate" the truth of the matter. And I think most of our worst assumptions will likely be accurate.
But should it turn out to be that the worst thing that occurred is what we already know, well that is still pretty bad.
The public got to see the entire OJ trial, see all the evidence, and hear all the arguments.
Also remember, there is no defense present when a Grand Jury is convened and their presentments are structured to favor the prosecution. In this case the prosecution is trying to paint a picture of total institutional neglect since they are indicting two administrators. It is foolish to to make assumptions based on Grand Jury Presentments in any case, not just this one. Your only hearing one side.
The above is about as objective of a statement that can be made. There is not presumption of guilt or innocence.
Bet you everything if anyone on this forum had a kid that was molested while Paterno was the honcho, and he knew the deal on any level, he'd be in the crosshairs as much as the actual molester...literally.
:confused:
This comment illustrates exactly why every effort is made to select juries that have "no skin in the game". No one would ever get a fair trial.
variablebinary
11-16-11, 22:39
:confused:
This comment illustrates exactly why every effort is made to select juries that have "no skin in the game". No one would ever get a fair trial.
Paterno is not on trial, but there is no question that he is guilty of failing to take the proper action to prevent child rape from going on where he conducted his business.
"Since I cannot yet post in the GD forum because my post count is below 200,
THAT'S RIGHT AND SHOULD BE THE END OF IT. THE RULES ARE THE RULES.
they're looking at the situation and saying well it looks like a rape & coverup on the surface so that's what it must be.
THERE WERE NUMEROUS RAPES AND COVER UPS
Before anyone can pass a final judgement,
NO ONE IS PASSING "FINAL JUDGMENT" THAT IS UP TO THE SYSTEM AND IN MY OPINION GOD.
Yes, it's a tragedy that kids were taken advantage of and raped. Yes it seems based on what we've got so far that there may have been some additional wrongdoing at Penn State,
YEP
Just like to add that if this was at some no name university, I think it's likely that nobody would give a shit beyond seeing the report on the news and saying aww that's sad. The only reason this is such a big deal is because of the big name and monetary value associated with the PSU football program.
IT WOULD NOT BE AS MUCH OF AN ISSUE IN A NO NAME UNIVERSITY. THAT IS LIFE. SANDUSKY AND PATERNO ALSO WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE POWER AND INFULENCE IN NO NAME U. SANDUSKY ALSO WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE ACCESS TO CHILDREN BECAUSE OF HIS FOUNDATION IF IT WAS NO NAME U THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A LARGE POOL OF PEOPLE AND MONEY TO FORM A FOUNDATION.
-Moltke"
On my tablet so used caps because of limitations.
[SNIP...]
Paterno is about as innocent as Eric Holder in F&F...
[SNIP...]
My new sig quote. Thanks VB, that one rocks.
So, McQueary is protected by whistleblower laws, while Paterno isn't, for doing the exact same thing? (reporting the incident to his superior)? Why the double standard?
Exactly why is this a whistleblower case?
I know right? In order to be a whistleblower, I thought you had to actually, you know.... blow a whistle?
That is, McQueary needed to have stopped the rape in progress, or at very least called 911 upon witnessing it. He did neither. He may as well have been an accomplice. At least Joe wasn't physically present in the damn showers while the poor kid was getting raped.
Tell you what, if I had been there the rape would have been stopped cold and the immediate 911 call would have been to send 2 teams: an ambulance/consellors for the child and a coroner for Sandusky.
Has anyone acknowledged that they are NOT reading the full record of testimony???
ESPN just did last night. Their legal analyst explained to the ignorant lynch mob exactly what a Grand Jury Presentment is and that they can include or omit any testimony they wish.
They usually include just enough to explain why the are bringing an indictment. Being that Paterno and McQueary were NOT indicted, they had no reason to share all the details.
I'll play. I'm more than willing to concede that we haven't heard all the evidence or everyone's full story, IF, you're willing to admit that little boys were anally raped at PSU, that certain PSU staff & employees were fully aware that Sandusky was most likely a pedophile, and that none of them did enough to keep it from happening again! Take it back to 1998, will ya? We have the tape of Sandusky admitting that he was inappropriate with a young boy, yet in 2002 here he is ass raping another one in the PSU shower!
I don't give two shits about your silly "presentment" argument. We wouldn't be having this argument and Paterno wouldn't be fired IF someone at PSU was man enough to cut this guy's nuts at the college. Sandusky should've been escorted off the campus in 1998 and NEVER allowed to return.
When something as rotten and putrid as this happens at such a "hallowed" institution, you clean house, period. We can always get Paterno & McQueary's sob story after all the trials and litigation are done. Paterno's "legacy" doesn't mean a ****ing thing in the balance of those kids who got ****ed over by the university. Not a single, ****ing, thing.
Feel free to retort if you must, I've already written off anything else you might have to say on the matter. Your perspective is all kinds of ****ed up. :mad:
I'm not defending anyone but I get a little annoyed when I hear people constantly talk about what they would do in a situation like that. You have know idea what you would do, just what you hope you would do.
Here is was a former Psychological Profiler who worked for the FBI for 25 years, Jan Turner, said to ESPN about McQueary and the situation:
"While it isn't known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been "100 percent normal" for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw.
Turner said most adults have never even seen a photo of a man having sexual relations with a young boy, much less witnessed it. Further complicating things, Turner said, was the fact that Sandusky was seen as a role model in the community and someone McQueary had known nearly his entire life.
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
I'll play. I'm more than willing to concede that we haven't heard all the evidence or everyone's full story, IF, you're willing to admit that little boys were anally raped at PSU, that certain PSU staff & employees were fully aware that Sandusky was most likely a pedophile, and that none of them did enough to keep it from happening again! Take it back to 1998, will ya? We have the tape of Sandusky admitting that he was inappropriate with a young boy, yet in 2002 here he is ass raping another one in the PSU shower!
I have have never once denied any of this happened. You obviously didn't read half of what I have said and your ability, or lack there of, to look at a situation rationally and logically is all kinds of ****ed up.
Why don't you focus some of your anger towards the local LE who dropped the ball twice instead of the famous football coach and the prosecution's #1 witness.
All this hate and speculation about McQueary only helps the defense in dismantling his credibility. What are you going to think if Sandusky gets off which is totally in the realm of possibilities? Remember Michael Jackson? He had eyewitnesses too. Can you even wrap your brain around such a concept or are you stuck on Neanderthal?
I have have never once denied any of this happened. You obviously didn't read half of what I have said and your ability, or lack there of, to look at a situation rationally and logically is all kinds of ****ed up.
Why don't you focus some of your anger towards the local LE who dropped the ball twice instead of the famous football coach and the prosecution's #1 witness.
All this hate and speculation about McQueary only helps the defense in dismantling his credibility. What are you going to think if Sandusky gets off which is totally in the realm of possibilities? Remember Michael Jackson? He had eyewitnesses too. Can you even wrap your brain around such a concept or are you stuck on Neanderthal?
Rational thought and logic would cause any sane person to clean house on the whole bunch. Coach Famous heads the list. Sandusky worked for Paterno for 23 years. He was Paterno's "heir apparent" for some time. That fact alone calls into question Paterno's judgement. From Paterno's own mouth:
"I am absolutely devastated by the developments in this case," Paterno said in a statement obtained by Fox News. "I grieve for the children and their families, and I pray for their comfort and relief."
"It is one of the great sorrows of my life," Paterno said. "With the benefit of hindsight, I wish I had done more."
Well don't we all wish Paterno had done more? Do you disagree with Paterno himself? Do you wish he hadn't done more? To twist your own pet theory against you, couldn't Paterno have been suffering from the very perspective of Sandusky that McCreary allegedly might have suffered? The difference is that Paterno didn't get shocked with the actual scene of the crime in progress. The other difference is that he's supposed to be better than that. He's supposed to always "do the right thing". Well he didn't, and even he admitted it.
And yes, I do know exactly what I would do in the situation McQueary found himself. As a LEO, I'm sworn to uphold the law. If I see a crime in progress like the anal rape of a 10 year old boy, you can bet your ass I'm going to stop it! If McQueary was of such a fragile mind that he couldn't, the least he could do is call the cops immediately. A big, strapping football player who's used to hitting full grown men and getting hit, and he couldn't even dial 911? Sorry, not buying it.
What's getting under my skin is your total focus on poor ol' Joe and his wilting lilly grad assistant turned coach. Those of us on this forum have no duty to withold judgement on this debacle. Of course we'll wait for the criminal and civil juries to assign guilt, but in the interim, we're perfectly free to judge these so called "men" on the merits and demerits of their actions, or lack thereof. That's what men do. We certainly don't need you to explain the deficiencies of a Grand Jury presentment! If we want to think someone is a worthless sack of skin, it's well within our purview to do so!
Have no doubt, I'm not happy that this situation deteriorated to the point it did. But it did. That is the single most important fact at hand. Nothing else even remotely matters at this point. Therefore, the most common and natural reaction (to use your FBI profiler in refutation of your premise) is to desire the complete downfall of the man who perpetrated the act, and those who could have stopped it and failed. Such righteous indignation and the subsequent house cleaning sends a clear message: This type of situation will not be tolerated!
If anyone's reaction is abnormal, it's yours. Your so called "level headed approach" is tantamount to condoning half assed attempts to stop pedophiles and other deviants in the future.
As far as McQueary goes, you bet his credibility is questionable. The defense team is going to attack him savagely on the witness stand. The very fact that he FAILED to notify the police immediately is going to call into question whether what he saw was a crime at all. He ****ed up, big time! He is going to make the prosecutions job much harder because of his failure. So if Sandusky walks because of his failure, you cannot even remotely pin that one on his detractors. That's all on him baby!
As for Sandusky, I don't really care whether he gets convicted. At this point, I think his fate is sealed whether he's in prison or not. When you play with fire, you should expect to get burned.
All in all, I'm comfortable with the remote possibility that I might be wrong on this debacle. For now Sandusky is a worthless, subhuman piece of shit, McQueary is a pussy, Paterno is a coward, and the rest of the PSU management team that failed those children are morally corrupt assholes! :mad:
What exactly is my "pet theory"? I don't know that I proposed one but you seem to have invented one for me. You just rambled on arguing about statements I never made.
Its quite obvious you have not read through this thread, or, like the media, have decided what the narrative should be and speculated the rest.
As LE you should know that it is unwise to come to conclusions before you have all the evidence. You should also be aware that everyone has a right to due process. You should also know how media speculation and sensationalizing can impact a case and influence jurors.
As LE I would hope you would be above mob mentality.
variablebinary
11-17-11, 19:02
I'm not defending anyone but I get a little annoyed when I hear people constantly talk about what they would do in a situation like that. You have know idea what you would do, just what you hope you would do.
Maybe you don't know what you would do if you saw a child being anally raped in the shower.
I do know what I would do. It would be violent, and it would be bloody. If it was my own kid, the end result would be death for the attacker, no doubt at all.
FBI profilers? Horse shit. They probably graduated from Penn State. Anyone that doesn't respond to child rape with anger, rage and violence either likes child rape or is a coward.
Any sane man with any sense of morals and values would protect the helpless from what is clearly evil. Bunch of pedophiles having child gang bangs in the shower is the vibe I am getting.
Just today the police said there was NO report of child rape ever given to them...Nice...
montanadave
11-17-11, 19:04
I can understand Sandusky's behavior and the motivations driving that behavior, assuming he is guilty of the allegations against him. He's a pederast. A sick mother****er. People may differ about how they choose to judge someone who engages in this kind of sexual abuse, but I imagine most folks are going to concede there's something seriously wrong with the guy. And his alleged actions reflect that illness or perversion or evil or whatever you want to label it.
Then we come to rest of these folks at Penn State, local law enforcement officials, staff in the county attorney's office, and whoever else either witnessed or were informed of Sandusky's sexual deviancy and abusive relations with these boys. Sandusky's seriously ****ed up. What's their excuse? I cannot understand their behavior unless I look at the possible motivations driving that behavior. And that's not a pretty picture because the most obvious motivations are all self-serving. To protect their job. To protect their reputation. To protect a football program that brought in millions of dollars to both the school and the community. To protect themselves against criminal prosecution or civil liability.
A bunch of folks protecting everybody but the victims.
I know right? In order to be a whistleblower, I thought you had to actually, you know.... blow a whistle?
That is, McQueary needed to have stopped the rape in progress, or at very least called 911 upon witnessing it. He did neither. He may as well have been an accomplice. At least Joe wasn't physically present in the damn showers while the poor kid was getting raped.
Tell you what, if I had been there the rape would have been stopped cold and the immediate 911 call would have been to send 2 teams: an ambulance/consellors for the child and a coroner for Sandusky.
They need him he will probably be one of the star witnesses.
I'm not defending anyone but I get a little annoyed when I hear people constantly talk about what they would do in a situation like that. You have know idea what you would do, just what you hope you would do.
Here is was a former Psychological Profiler who worked for the FBI for 25 years, Jan Turner, said to ESPN about McQueary and the situation:
"While it isn't known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been "100 percent normal" for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw.
Turner said most adults have never even seen a photo of a man having sexual relations with a young boy, much less witnessed it. Further complicating things, Turner said, was the fact that Sandusky was seen as a role model in the community and someone McQueary had known nearly his entire life.
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
9 out of 10. I disagree. 8 out of 10 maybe. I know I would have directly stopped it. With my hands, a gun, a freaking stick or broom. Sandusky would not have walked out with the boy.
I have a 4, 6 & 9 year old. If it was my child I am 110% sure he woukd have left in a bodybag. I am not "talking shit" the anger I feel just reading about it. I dont think I woukd be any less enraged with another persons child as the victim.
There are many here that have moved towards the sound of the guns. Many who have done much more than me and certainly more recently. I know what it feels like to be scared. I also know how I've reacted in the past and that has been with a controlled anger. Especially when there is someone or something to fight back against. Sandusky should have died that night on the shower floor. I suspect many here agree.
Arguably, this crowd here might be a little more prone to violence than the average cat.
Hey, anyone catch the Bob Costas interview? Stewart give it a great review here:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-november-15-2011/jerry-sandusky-phone-interview
Yeah, defend that.
I know right? In order to be a whistleblower, I thought you had to actually, you know.... blow a whistle?
That is, McQueary needed to have stopped the rape in progress, or at very least called 911 upon witnessing it. He did neither. He may as well have been an accomplice. At least Joe wasn't physically present in the damn showers while the poor kid was getting raped.
Tell you what, if I had been there the rape would have been stopped cold and the immediate 911 call would have been to send 2 teams: an ambulance/consellors for the child and a coroner for Sandusky.
The whistleblower status has nothing to do with McQueary witnessing or testifying against Sandusky. Sandusky was not a PSU employee in 2002 when McQueary allegedly witnessed him raping the boy. The whistleblower status comes from McQueary being a State's witness against the VP and athletic director who are being charged with with failure to report child sexual abuse and perjury. These crimes were allegedly performed while working for the State as PSU officials.
What exactly is my "pet theory"? I don't know that I proposed one but you seem to have invented one for me. You just rambled on arguing about statements I never made.
You're the one who posted the whole FBI profiler theory on why McQueary didn't act sufficiently. Why post it if not to rationalize what McQueary failed to adequately do?
Its quite obvious you have not read through this thread, or, like the media, have decided what the narrative should be and speculated the rest.
I've actually read so many reports (including the GJ presentment you love to rail about) that coupled with my own experiences with similar situations, I feel I have sufficient evidence to understand the dynamics of the case. Do I know every minute fact? No, and neither do you.
As LE you should know that it is unwise to come to conclusions before you have all the evidence. You should also be aware that everyone has a right to due process. You should also know how media speculation and sensationalizing can impact a case and influence jurors.
That's the best you can do? LE comes to conclusions before getting every last fact on a daily basis. How do you think they decide which suspects to focus on? Sometimes you have to narrow your focus in order to efficiently collect evidence. You do this based on training and years of experience. I've been through Reid, Eckman Group, Chameleon, Wicklander-Zulawski, etc., etc., I've conducted dozens of interviews and watched many more from a student's perspective. What I'm seeing in this case fills me with disgust for the whole lot of them. As for the media speculation and sensationalism, well that's a problem for the defense attorney's to worry about. Sandusky's attorney sure didn't do his client any favors by allowing him to do the Costas interview! In my professional opinion, Sandusky is as guilty as they come. If I were doing his interrogation, I'd have to keep reminding myself to take my time and cover all the steps, because he's acting like a man who wants to be caught, yet can't quite bring himself to give it up.
As LE I would hope you would be above mob mentality.
HA,Ha, just because we'd step between this piece of shit and a lynch mob, that doesn't mean we wouldn't like to stretch his neck ourselves. You think being in LE is all rainbows & unicorns? For the most part, LEO's have considerable restraint and a lot of empathy. That's what makes it so difficult to see people that have little kids and grown adults alike treat them like they're heroes, just because they move a ball up and down a field, fail so utterly and completely to defend victimized kids. I guess expecting these giants of collegiate football to understand what it takes to be a real man is excessive?
I can be as partial in this case as I please, because I'm not on the investigative team. If I were, I'd do my duty and investigate fully, to the extent the law allowed. You can also bet that I would be fair, but not impartial. I would do everything in my power to ensure that the guilty were brought to justice, and the morally culpable would be exposed for their sins. Far more influential people than me have already heaped criticism on the entire PSU management team involved in this debacle, to include Paterno. I honestly believe that this story is going to get worse, not better.
Still yet, you've done yourself no favors in this thread.
variablebinary
11-17-11, 23:27
Here is how disgusting McQueary, Joe Paterno and Sandusky are.
From CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/16/us/pennsylvania-sandusky-case/index.html
Two police departments say Penn State coach never filed report
State College police also had no reports from McQueary, according to State College Police Chief Tom King.
grand jury records indicate that McQueary did talk to Gary Schultz, who was then senior vice president for finance and business, and that Schultz never presented the information to university police.
"I did stop it, not physically, but made sure it was stopped when I left that locker room," McQueary wrote in the November 8 e-mail to a former classmate.
"No one can imagine my thoughts or wants to be in my shoes for those 30-45 seconds," McQueary said. "Trust me." COWARD, he watched a boy get raped for 1/2 a minute and stood there and did what? Watched? COWARD!
According to the report, McQueary told Joe Paterno, who was then the team's coach; Paterno then alerted his boss, the school's athletic director.
All this, and for what. So a bunch of people can throw a ball around. Not cure AIDS, not put a man on Mars, not invent cold fusion...All for a stupid ass football.
Still yet, you've done yourself no favors in this thread.
Do you think I give a shit what you or some uninformed dope thinks? The majority of the people in this country can't name a single republican candidate or point to where Illinois is on a map. I'm not to impressed by what the majority thinks.
"Do I know every minute fact? No, and neither do you."
Agreed. The difference is I choose to wait until I do.
I have proposed the insane idea that people shouldn't jump to conclusions based on mostly speculation; which is 98% of this story. That's it. I have implied nothing else. Anything else is pure imagination.
Also, PSU has never had an NCAA violation or investigation because they have NEVER put football first. The idea that there was some cover up to protect the football program is inconstant with the behavior of the school for the last 125 years. If you attended PSU, closely followed the program, or lived in the town you would understand how out of touch that assertion is.
The idea that the school was trying to protect Paterno is even more absurd and would only be entertained by someone who has zero knowledge of the relationship between Paterno and the trustees for the last 10 years OR was heavily influenced by the media and naive enough to believe them.
Nightvisionary
11-18-11, 00:45
What the hell is a 10 year old boy doing in the locker room of a D1 NCAA athletic program by himself in the first place?
Discuss...
Times sure have changed:(
http://midnightwriter.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/coke-mean-joe.jpg
Do you think I give a shit what you or some uninformed dope thinks? The majority of the people in this country can't name a single republican candidate or point to where Illinois is on a map. I'm not to impressed by what the majority thinks.
"Do I know every minute fact? No, and neither do you."
Agreed. The difference is I choose to wait until I do.
I have proposed the insane idea that people shouldn't jump to conclusions based on mostly speculation; which is 98% of this story. That's it. I have implied nothing else. Anything else is pure imagination.
Also, PSU has never had an NCAA violation or investigation because they have NEVER put football first. The idea that there was some cover up to protect the football program is inconstant with the behavior of the school for the last 125 years. If you attended PSU, closely followed the program, or lived in the town you would understand how out of touch that assertion is.
The idea that the school was trying to protect Paterno is even more absurd and would only be entertained by someone who has zero knowledge of the relationship between Paterno and the trustees for the last 10 years OR was heavily influenced by the media and naive enough to believe them.
Oh we get it. You're a PSU fanboy or alum and you're defending your institution. Unfortunately, it seems to take an outside perspective to stop little boys from being anally raped at PSU though. That is, unless you think 13 years is sufficient to get the job done? Hmm, what better place to be a practicing pedophile than a place where no one would question the integrity of the coaching staff, just because there hasn't been a major NCAA violation? I guess buggering little boys isn't on the NCAA infractions list huh?
Your apparent concern about poor JoPa, McQueary and the PSU athletics program over the safety and welfare of the kids who got ****ed over is disgusting. You obviously don't get it. When you cavort with pedophiles, your perfect angel reputation is going to take a hit. PSU and all involved deserve the black eye they're getting over this.
variablebinary
11-18-11, 01:16
Times sure have changed:(
http://midnightwriter.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/coke-mean-joe.jpg
Mind you, Joe Green isn't inviting that kid into the shower for "horseplay."
Nightvisionary
11-18-11, 02:15
Mind you, Joe Green isn't inviting that kid into the shower for "horseplay."
I know, that was my point;)
Oh we get it. You're a PSU fanboy or alum and you're defending your institution. Unfortunately, it seems to take an outside perspective to stop little boys from being anally raped at PSU though. That is, unless you think 13 years is sufficient to get the job done? Hmm, what better place to be a practicing pedophile than a place where no one would question the integrity of the coaching staff, just because there hasn't been a major NCAA violation? I guess buggering little boys isn't on the NCAA infractions list huh?
Your apparent concern about poor JoPa, McQueary and the PSU athletics program over the safety and welfare of the kids who got ****ed over is disgusting. You obviously don't get it. When you cavort with pedophiles, your perfect angel reputation is going to take a hit. PSU and all involved deserve the black eye they're getting over this.
You have quite an imagination. Nothing of what you have implied has any relation to what I have said in this thread. I'm not sure who's position your arguing with but its not mine. I highly suggest you actually read all my comments in this thread and then comment yourself.
And yes, since this has ZERO to do with the football team and its players, the NCAA has no jurisdiction (as the NCAA has stated), though I'm sure some media hack will try to invent one when the story starts to get stale.
I'm not defending anyone but I get a little annoyed when I hear people constantly talk about what they would do in a situation like that. You have know idea what you would do, just what you hope you would do.
Here is was a former Psychological Profiler who worked for the FBI for 25 years, Jan Turner, said to ESPN about McQueary and the situation:
"While it isn't known what happened in the shower between McQueary and Sandusky, Turner said that given her expertise it would have been "100 percent normal" for McQueary to freeze, panic and shut down after seeing what he said he saw.
Turner said most adults have never even seen a photo of a man having sexual relations with a young boy, much less witnessed it. Further complicating things, Turner said, was the fact that Sandusky was seen as a role model in the community and someone McQueary had known nearly his entire life.
"You're trying to comprehend something your brain can't handle," Turner said. "You can't rationalize it. Compute it. Handle it. Most people turn around and walk away. And then they try to figure out, 'Oh my God. What the hell did I just see?' The people who say they would go in there and break it up? They're wrong. Nine times out of 10, that's just not how the human brain works."
Agree completely. But the question is, as far as McQueary is concerned, why did he himself not notify the police. Yes he may have. We do not know that from the Presentment, except that the Police Dept. records were subpoenaed and has no records of McQueary or anyone from PSU. So common sense says that he only told PSU officials about what he saw an ex-PSU employee doing on PSU property.
You have quite an imagination. Nothing of what you have implied has any relation to what I have said in this thread. I'm not sure who's position your arguing with but its not mine. I highly suggest you actually read all my comments in this thread and then comment yourself.
And yes, since this has ZERO to do with the football team and its players, the NCAA has no jurisdiction (as the NCAA has stated), though I'm sure some media hack will try to invent one when the story starts to get stale.
Once again, you brought up the NCAA violation record (or lack thereof). You keep bringing up arguing points, then state they have nothing to do with what you've said or your position. So feel free to state for the record YOUR position and YOUR argument, not someone else's.
Should PSU Have done more to initiate a police investigation in 2002?
Should PSU have done more to keep Sandusky off PSU campuses AFTER 2002?
Should PSU have fired Paterno?
Should PSU have fired McCreary?
Should Paterno have done more to protect children from Sandusky?
Should McCreary have done more to stop and/or report the rape he saw in 2002?
Was anything that anyone did in this scandal effective in protecting Sandusky's victims, the reputation of PSU, or the personal reputations of Paterno, McQueary, or anyone else who was told of the allegations?
Feel free to stop popping smoke and stand firm on what it is you're trying to accomplish here. Whatever it is, so far you seem to have made a mess of it.
Once again, you brought up the NCAA violation record (or lack thereof). You keep bringing up arguing points, then state they have nothing to do with what you've said or your position. So feel free to state for the record YOUR position and YOUR argument, not someone else's.
Should PSU Have done more to initiate a police investigation in 2002?
Should PSU have done more to keep Sandusky off PSU campuses AFTER 2002?
Should PSU have fired Paterno?
Should PSU have fired McCreary?
Should Paterno have done more to protect children from Sandusky?
Should McCreary have done more to stop and/or report the rape he saw in 2002?
Was anything that anyone did in this scandal effective in protecting Sandusky's victims, the reputation of PSU, or the personal reputations of Paterno, McQueary, or anyone else who was told of the allegations?
Feel free to stop popping smoke and stand firm on what it is you're trying to accomplish here. Whatever it is, so far you seem to have made a mess of it.
You ignore the context in which I have said things. The NCAA was brought up to illustrate that PSU has never put football 1st, so the idea that there was a cover up to protect football or Paterno is inconsistent with past behavior.
As of right now all we have is a presentment from the prosecution containing very, very limited testimony. There was no cross examination of the witnesses and since Paterno and McQueary were not indicted there is even less details about what they said.
All we know is that they reported it to their superiors, but what was discussed when that happened afterward is unknown. Could they have said "Thanks, we will forward it on" and nothing else? Sure. But they also could have said "Thanks, we already know about this and the authorities have been alerted. Please do not interfere". That Paterno did zero follow up is based on 100% speculation.
After all, the AG chose to indict the AD and the VP of Finance who was the head of the Campus Police at the time - not Paterno and McQueary.
Also, the AG's office released a statement questioning the wisdom of firing Paterno so I would imagine there is a LOT more information that we are not aware of.
My position is that it is foolish and dangerous to answer any of your questions when only a minuscule % of the testimony is available. I have read that the full grand jury testimony is over a hundred pages long. If you actually read all my comments in this tread you would know this already,
My other beef is how the media has reported speculation as fact since the story broke. They do that on a daily basis, but I have never seen a story where every article or report is an opinion piece. I am discouraged that so many Americans allow themselves to be duped by the media or a regular basis; not just this story.
PSU is partly to blame for the media's handling of this since they have chose to not comment or allow anyone to comment on the case. Because of this the media has driven the narrative and shaped the story the way they like.
lloydkristmas
11-18-11, 15:50
News is coming out now that Paterno has lung cancer.
Maybe that asshole can rot from the inside out while Sandusky gets his ass split wide in prison.
**** Penn State football.
Voodoochild
11-18-11, 18:10
News is coming out now that Paterno has lung cancer.
Maybe that asshole can rot from the inside out while Sandusky gets his ass split wide in prison.
**** Penn State football.
Wow you stay classy man....My father died of Lung cancer and it is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Saying shit like that is ignorant.
Yeah my Dad died of lung cancer too! It sucks.
lloydkristmas
11-18-11, 19:04
Wow you stay classy man....My father died of Lung cancer and it is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Saying shit like that is ignorant.
Anal rape at a prepubescent age isnt something I'd wish on my worst enemy either. Sorry for painting with such a broad brush. Joe Paterno and his crew deserve the trouble they are in, thats all I should have said.
Anal rape at a prepubescent age isnt something I'd wish on my worst enemy either. Sorry for painting with such a broad brush. Joe Paterno and his crew deserve the trouble they are in, thats all I should have said.
Fair enough. I lost my Mother to cancer too, but I can empathize with how you feel about Penn State. Just remember that there's a lot more to the school than the football team, and more to this scandal than just Paterno.
lloydkristmas
11-18-11, 19:20
Fair enough. I lost my Mother to cancer too, but I can empathize with how you feel about Penn State. Just remember that there's a lot more to the school than the football team, and more to this scandal than just Paterno.
I really feel for the students of Penn State who had no idea what went on in the football complex of their campus. Its a great school whose reputation is going to be diminished by this incident, as unfair as that may be.
As for the football team, well, I've never had much respect for the "college football is life, screw everything else" mentality. Paterno might not have touched a child, but he stood by while it happened and that may as well be just as bad.
QuietShootr
11-18-11, 19:25
Wow you stay classy man....My father died of Lung cancer and it is something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Your worst enemy didn't wrong you that badly, then.
lloydkristmas
11-18-11, 20:18
Your worst enemy didn't wrong you that badly, then.
Its an emotional argument. Cancer is unfortunate in that nobody is immune. There are plenty of people who dont deserve the death they get, and there are plenty that dont get it bad enough. If you knowingly turn a blind eye to forcible anal rape of a CHILD then you deserve to die. Plain and simple. The last few weeks are the worst, Joe. Enjoy.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-18-11, 22:36
Its an emotional argument. Cancer is unfortunate in that nobody is immune. There are plenty of people who dont deserve the death they get, and there are plenty that dont get it bad enough. If you knowingly turn a blind eye to forcible anal rape of a CHILD then you deserve to die. Plain and simple. The last few weeks are the worst, Joe. Enjoy.
Ive lost close loved one to painful cancer, and its tragic. That said, one of my closest loved ones was sexually assaulted repeatedly as a child. I wish that all who let this happen to others die of painful, tragic cancer. I'm not naming names or assigning blame, but the guilty should pay.
On the bright side, even if the DA does not prosecute everyone involved as an accessory we still have the 12 or so families who will sue those involved and Penn State as an institution. So everyone gets yet another chance to defend themselves in court to answer the famous question "what did you know and when did you know it?"
variablebinary
11-19-11, 10:10
On the bright side, even if the DA does not prosecute everyone involved as an accessory we still have the 12 or so families who will sue those involved and Penn State as an institution. So everyone gets yet another chance to defend themselves in court to answer the famous question "what did you know and when did you know it?"
Paterno knows this. He sold his house to his wife for $1.
He knows what's coming and knows he didn't do enough.
lloydkristmas
11-19-11, 10:28
Random thought, have the Westboro nuts been spotted in PA yet? Given the subject matter it seems they'd be all over this waving their signs.
Paterno knows this. He sold his house to his wife for $1.
He knows what's coming and knows he didn't do enough.
Clearly the act of an innocent man....
I am sure he has very good (and very expensive) representation at this point.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-19-11, 13:07
Clearly the act of an innocent man....
I am sure he has very good (and very expensive) representation at this point.
not at all defending Paterno here, but if I knew someone was about to sue my ass, I'd be putting all of my property in someone elses name and lawyering up too.
lloydkristmas
11-19-11, 14:19
not at all defending Paterno here, but if I knew someone was about to sue my ass, I'd be putting all of my property in someone elses name and lawyering up too.
If i remember correctly, the whole house sale/asset transfer thing happened back in July. My guess is he knew back then that this was going to be hitting the papers soon and started to prep for being sued.
variablebinary
11-19-11, 15:49
If i remember correctly, the whole house sale/asset transfer thing happened back in July. My guess is he knew back then that this was going to be hitting the papers soon and started to prep for being sued.
You get the impression these allegations were not a surprise to him. Gee I wonder why.
lloydkristmas
11-19-11, 16:38
You get the impression these allegations were not a surprise to him. Gee I wonder why.
Old Joe was absolutely not surprised by any of this. He is just as guilty and deserves to hang right along side Sandusky
Nightvisionary
11-19-11, 21:09
keeping in mind the fact that Paterno is one of the greatest coaches in history;
do you think a well known and megolithic sports apparell company should change the name of it's employee child development/child care center that is named after Paterno? The building was named after him over 15 years ago.
keeping in mind the fact that Paterno is one of the greatest coaches in history;
Yep, a great coach... with ZERO moral courage.
The DA needs to charge him as an accessory! This is obvious. Let the court determine his actual culpability.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-19-11, 22:57
keeping in mind the fact that Paterno is one of the greatest coaches in history;
do you think a well known and megolithic sports apparell company should change the name of it's employee child development/child care center that is named after Paterno? The building was named after him over 15 years ago.
Considering that he is simply a coward and not a pedophile, I say no.
lloydkristmas
11-19-11, 23:07
Considering that he is simply a coward and not a pedophile, I say no.
I say leave it. For the next 50 years it wont be "oh you mean Joe Paterno, that great coach?" , it will be "oh you mean the same Paterno that was an accessory to child ass rape?" His name is forever mud, leaving the name on the building will only cement his role in history.
LowSpeed_HighDrag
11-19-11, 23:19
I say leave it. For the next 50 years it wont be "oh you mean Joe Paterno, that great coach?" , it will be "oh you mean the same Paterno that was an accessory to child ass rape?" His name is forever mud, leaving the name on the building will only cement his role in history.
I dont agree. The American public will forget about this mess an less than a year. We're a very forgetful and even forgiving bunch with our celebs.
lloydkristmas
11-19-11, 23:31
I dont agree. The American public will forget about this mess an less than a year. We're a very forgetful and even forgiving bunch with our celebs.
To an extent yes....I'm willing to bet that most of America remembers Bill Clinton for blow jobs, Michael Richards for racial slurs, Tiger Woods for threesomes, and Michael Vick for dogfighting but who knows...I guess I'm just a pessmistic kind of guy :cool:
ESPN has this buried in their Big Ten blog while their story about Sue Paterno being denied access to a pool (the pool was actually closed, ESPN never clarified that part) makes the front page of the website a few weeks ago.
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/41159/family-friend-contradicts-mcquearys-story#comments
I don't think this fits well with the popular narrative that the media has endorsed. This has to be intentional. Their headline story is Paterno's hip?
ESPN has this buried in their Big Ten blog while their story about Sue Paterno being denied access to a pool (the pool was actually closed, ESPN never clarified that part) makes the front page of the website a few weeks ago.
http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/41159/family-friend-contradicts-mcquearys-story#comments
I don't think this fits well with the popular narrative that the media has endorsed. This has to be intentional. Their headline story is Paterno's hip?
So the gist of it is that McQueary is an unreliable witness and that exonerates Paterno? :confused:
montanadave
12-13-11, 09:46
Sandusky apparently is in no hurry to have the public hear the testimony of his alleged victims as his attorney just waived his right to a pretrial hearing. http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/13/justice/sandusky-preliminary-hearing/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
So now we'll wait until his arraignment in January to hear all the sordid details.
So the gist of it is that McQueary is an unreliable witness and that exonerates Paterno? :confused:
Did you read it or just try to get the "gist" of it?
The article paints a vastly different picture of the what Paterno and administrators were told and what they did. The media witch hunt on Paterno was based 100% on McQueary's story.
It also does not jive with the media narrative that Paterno is evil; hence ESPN burying this in a blog while Paterno's hip is front page news.
The media has mysteriously ignored this story. You don't find that a little concerning? How do you explain it?
Interesting that McQueary is deemed as a coward and scumbag in the court of public opinion but no one questions his testimony. I see an inconvenient contradiction.
montanadave
12-13-11, 11:09
Why do I suspect that the phone lines and the internet are aflame as a cabal of Penn State loyalists solicit funds from the many deep-pocketed benefactors of the university to bribe Sandusky into accepting a plea-bargain (thus avoiding the unseemly public testimony of an ex-Penn State coach butt-****ing ten-year-old boys in the football locker room under the blind eye of school officials) while simultaneously bankrolling a compensation fund to buy off Sandusky's victims, thus sparing the university from being dragged into a lengthy, humiliating, and potentially very expensive civil suit?
Joe is out, not sure that much else matters to many of the guys running the show at PSU.
Did you read it or just try to get the "gist" of it?
The article paints a vastly different picture of the what Paterno and administrators were told and what they did. The media witch hunt on Paterno was based 100% on McQueary's story.
It also does not jive with the media narrative that Paterno is evil; hence ESPN burying this in a blog while Paterno's hip is front page news.
The media has mysteriously ignored this story. You don't find that a little concerning? How do you explain it?
Interesting that McQueary is deemed as a coward and scumbag in the court of public opinion but no one questions his testimony. I see an inconvenient contradiction.
I read the entire story, along with a large number of other stories. McQueary is a pussy and a terrible witness (mostly because he's a pussy). However, I really think his multiple and varying accounts of the event are irrelevant.
If McQueary thought something was wrong enough to say something, then Paterno and the rest of the PSU management team should've went the distance. Instead, they punted. that's not what you do if you want to live up to the hype that your organization is somehow above reproach and has all this integrity.
All those years of attaboys are wiped out by one aww shit moment. They could've maintained their shiny reputations by doing the right thing. They didn't. I have no sympathy for Paterno or any of the rest of the PSU management team. All my sympathies lie with the victims. :(
Does anyone find it odd that ESPN went full nuts with this story but HELD A RECORDED MESSAGE in which Bernie Fine's wife admitted to knowing about his many molestations of young boys????????
ESPN held the story since 2002, WTF? Nobody at ESPN is getting fired......
Kinda funny how the media gets a pass, but joe pa is automatically a coward p.o.s.
Does anyone find it odd that ESPN went full nuts with this story but HELD A RECORDED MESSAGE in which Bernie Fine's wife admitted to knowing about his many molestations of young boys????????
ESPN held the story since 2002, WTF? Nobody at ESPN is getting fired......
What does ESPN have to do with running the football team? I thought that was Joe's job.
If McQueary thought something was wrong enough to say something, then Paterno and the rest of the PSU management team should've went the distance. Instead, they punted. that's not what you do if you want to live up to the hype that your organization is somehow above reproach and has all this integrity.
It's difficult, because McQueary clearly *IS* a key witness, regardless of how consistent or truthful he has been. If McQueary faces criminal charges, all he has to do is plead the 5th and the case could fall apart. I suspect that's why they're letting him be a "pussy" and a "terrible witness", rather than charging him.
I don't get swayed by the media easily, but I can dig what Old State is saying. Thing is, I saw what the JoePa supporters did. They rioted, flipped over vans, and blindly supported their god-coach.
I am Penn State. I have multiple degrees from PSU, and if anything, this scandal undermines the value of those degrees. You are damn right I will hold Spanier and Paterno accountable for making my alma mater's name mud.
What does ESPN have to do with running the football team? I thought that was Joe's job.
Ok, let me spell it out for you......
Joe Paterno is being crusified for not doing enough to report the incident that Mcquery reported to him (mcquery is in the same boat "not doing enough"). "They are cowards and disgusting"
ESPN covered the PSU story 24/7 for 72hrs.
Now it comes out that ESPN held information in the Bernie Fine/Syracuse scandal FOR NINE YEARS. They had a recorded phone conversation of Bernie Fine's wife admitting to having full knowledge of young boys being molested BY HER HUSBAND!!!!!!!!!!!
You dont see a problem with this? ESPN had the duty to air that story. How many kids were molested since 2002?
ESPN is as guilty as Joe Paterno. But for some reason they get a free pass. Mainly because they wont report on themselves....
Syracuse is a top five journalism school with almost 40 alumni working in major sports media. 8 work for ESPN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syracuse_University_people
Scroll down to Media and Communications. Among others you will see Bob Costas of Sandusky interview fame......totally quiet on Syracuse.
I find it curious how some of the same people here who are (rightly) complaining about media distortion with Fast and Furious are so quick to take their narrative of the PSU story without any reserve.
The media is in business to sell papers first and foremost. They only print the truth when it is more interesting than what they can fabricate or speculate.
Someone explain why they buried the new McQueary story.
Oh, the Bernie Fine thing is the Syracuse scandal! Whoops, nevermind.
Oh, the Bernie Fine thing is the Syracuse scandal! Whoops, nevermind.
It's not a big deal because no one knows who Bernie Fine is. Paterno sells far more papers.
It's difficult, because McQueary clearly *IS* a key witness, regardless of how consistent or truthful he has been. If McQueary faces criminal charges, all he has to do is plead the 5th and the case could fall apart. I suspect that's why they're letting him be a "pussy" and a "terrible witness", rather than charging him.
I don't get swayed by the media easily, but I can dig what Old State is saying. Thing is, I saw what the JoePa supporters did. They rioted, flipped over vans, and blindly supported their god-coach.
I am Penn State. I have multiple degrees from PSU, and if anything, this scandal undermines the value of those degrees. You are damn right I will hold Spanier and Paterno accountable for making my alma mater's name mud.
You are reasonably holding PSU to the standard they were telling everyone they had. That's much more understandable than all the PSU/JoPa apologists.
Ok, let me spell it out for you......
Joe Paterno is being crusified for not doing enough to report the incident that Mcquery reported to him (mcquery is in the same boat "not doing enough"). "They are cowards and disgusting"
ESPN covered the PSU story 24/7 for 72hrs.
Now it comes out that ESPN held information in the Bernie Fine/Syracuse scandal FOR NINE YEARS. They had a recorded phone conversation of Bernie Fine's wife admitting to having full knowledge of young boys being molested BY HER HUSBAND!!!!!!!!!!!
You dont see a problem with this? ESPN had the duty to air that story. How many kids were molested since 2002?
ESPN is as guilty as Joe Paterno. But for some reason they get a free pass. Mainly because they wont report on themselves....
You cannot use two instances of wrongdoing as a mitigating factor in one or the other. Each of them should be judged separately. Should ESPN/Syracuse be held to the same standard? Absolutely. If you know something of this magnitude and don't do what's necessary to stop it and report it, your name should be mud equally. However, that doesn't make the PSU scandal reporting any less appropriate.
Call for more scrutiny on the Fine scandal, rather than compare the Sandusky scandal to it.
Syracuse is a top five journalism school with almost 40 alumni working in major sports media. 8 work for ESPN.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Syracuse_University_people
Scroll down to Media and Communications. Among others you will see Bob Costas of Sandusky interview fame......totally quiet on Syracuse.
I find it curious how some of the same people here who are (rightly) complaining about media distortion with Fast and Furious are so quick to take their narrative of the PSU story without any reserve.
The media is in business to sell papers first and foremost. They only print the truth when it is more interesting than what they can fabricate or speculate.
Someone explain why they buried the new McQueary story.
The media distortion in F&F and possibly the Fine scandal is from not enough scrutiny, which cannot be compared to your complaint that they're focusing too much on the Sandusky scandal and buried what you consider to be exculpatory evidence (or equivalent). I've seen plenty of reporting that McQueary was inconsistent, to the point that I have no doubts that he didn't do enough, didn't say enough and didn't help anyone at the time. However, it does appear that he said enough that smarter, braver men than him should've acted with more vigor. I just don't see how you can question that under the circumstances? After all, no one has called McQueary a liar yet, not even Sandusky himself!
It's not a big deal because no one knows who Bernie Fine is. Paterno sells far more papers.
The bigger they are, the harder they fall. It's always been that way and always will be.
You are reasonably holding PSU to the standard they were telling everyone they had. That's much more understandable than all the PSU/JoPa apologists.
.
This is what I believe is the true underlying reason for the public fascination and knee jerk condemnation based on speculations. Of course everyone feels for children but if PSU was involved in any type of "scandal" the vitriol would be similar. There are many, many people who love to see icons fall. It's another dark side of human nature. If everyone was really only concerned with child abuse there would have been more focus on Syracuse. Do those kids not mater as much?
That's also why everyone wants to condemn the entire school for the alleged actions of a few people. You call them apologists, I call them realists.
The alleged actions of a retired employee and two administrators do not diminish the program's impeccable record.
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2010/09/14/penn-state-tops-wall-street-journals-newest-college-ranking-stanford-not-in-top-25/
After all, if Sandusky was a retired physics professor accused of molesting kids on the campus, would and claims be the same? No, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore.
This is what I believe is the true underlying reason for the public fascination and knee jerk condemnation based on speculations. Of course everyone feels for children but if PSU was involved in any type of "scandal" the vitriol would be similar. There are many, many people who love to see icons fall. It's another dark side of human nature. If everyone was really only concerned with child abuse there would have been more focus on Syracuse. Do those kids not mater as much?
That's also why everyone wants to condemn the entire school for the alleged actions of a few people. You call them apologists, I call them realists.
The alleged actions of a retired employee and two administrators do not diminish the program's impeccable record.
http://www.stanforddaily.com/2010/09/14/penn-state-tops-wall-street-journals-newest-college-ranking-stanford-not-in-top-25/
After all, if Sandusky was a retired physics professor accused of molesting kids on the campus, would and claims be the same? No, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore.
You have to remember that PSU IS college ball, not academics. If a Harvard or Yale law professor was molesting kids on campus, you might see the same "vitriol" as you put it. Not as much mind you, because this ignorant society we live in places college ball above academics in importance.
The mere fact that you quotation marked "scandal" in reference to PSU defines you as an apologist. People in glass houses should assume broken panes as an effect. You're not going to change thousands of years of human nature here. Your protestations of dark human nature notwithstanding, PSU put itself on a pedestal and one of their own knocked them off. "Physician heal thyself" comes to mind in this case. :(
PSU and Paterno never put football above academics which is why they are only one of 2 schools in the US to never have an NCAA violation. Also see the link above. That doesn't happen when you put "college ball" above academics. Just because the ignorant masses don't know PSU for anything else but football doesn't make it reality.
Penn State never put itself on a pedestal. The public did because of the way they did things in the athletic department. Many people hated them for that. Pitt and OSU fans in particular always liked to say PSU was cheating just like everyone else they just haven't been caught. The reality is they never were cheating. Now they are foaming at the mouth.
This story has nothing to do with athletics or academics. It has to do with an ex employee and administration.
variablebinary
12-14-11, 00:12
Penn State is a pedophile and perverts dream.
NAMBLA members can rape boys all day in the locker rooms and no one would notice till 20 years later...
Penn State is a pedophile and perverts dream.
NAMBLA members can rape boys all day in the locker rooms and no one would notice till 20 years later...
Intelligent and insightful.
Nathan_Bell
12-14-11, 09:48
PSU, under Spanier, had put money above all for years.
Had they followed their own stated code they would have drummed Sandusky out in the late '90's, but that might have made folks curious as to why he got run off. Couldn't have that, it could have come out that one of JoePA's assistants was screwed in the head. This might have interrupted the $$ flowing into the school.
For those of you who follow the CAGW CF you will recognize that behavior, as PSU did the same thing for Mann when he made up his global warming hockey stick. Many scientists called it garbage, but good old Spanier was ok with it, because the grant money kept coming in.
The latter of course has cost the US economy billions and helped to cause upheaval throughout the Mid East, but that failure of PSU's leadership has been ignored. When it is actually the real story of PSU and Spanier's failure as a president.
Happily, Spanier was torpedoed by his money first, second, and always attitude, and luckily for PSU it can be blamed on the athletics department, when in fact it was their entire organization.
PSU and Paterno never put football above academics which is why they are only one of 2 schools in the US to never have an NCAA violation. Also see the link above. That doesn't happen when you put "college ball" above academics. Just because the ignorant masses don't know PSU for anything else but football doesn't make it reality.
Penn State never put itself on a pedestal. The public did because of the way they did things in the athletic department. Many people hated them for that. Pitt and OSU fans in particular always liked to say PSU was cheating just like everyone else they just haven't been caught. The reality is they never were cheating. Now they are foaming at the mouth.
This story has nothing to do with athletics or academics. It has to do with an ex employee and administration.
PSU and Paterno never put football above academics which is why they are only one of 2 schools in the US to never have an NCAA violation. Also see the link above. That doesn't happen when you put "college ball" above academics. Just because the ignorant masses don't know PSU for anything else but football doesn't make it reality.
Penn State never put itself on a pedestal. The public did because of the way they did things in the athletic department. Many people hated them for that. Pitt and OSU fans in particular always liked to say PSU was cheating just like everyone else they just haven't been caught. The reality is they never were cheating. Now they are foaming at the mouth.
This story has nothing to do with athletics or academics. It has to do with an ex employee and administration.
Well said. PSU football, as I saw it, never made claims about how clean they played or how excellent their people were. They got that reputation through actions, not through speech.
Penn State's one of the few teams not to put players' names on their jerseys. I don't know the exact reason for this, but I figure it jives with the philosophy of putting the team ahead of the individual. This scandal is an opportunity for the team to move on. I don't hate Joe, but Penn State football will certainly live on without him.
I don't hate Joe, but Penn State football will certainly live on without him.
From a purely football perspective they will be far better. I thought Joe should have gone 10 years ago and definitely this year prior to the Sandusky thing.
I just didn't want him to be railroaded by the media. If you look at his relationship with the media for the last 30 years it is not surprising.
Maybe, when the other 99% of the story is out he will get his come-up-ins.
if Sandusky was a retired physics professor accused of molesting kids on the campus, would and claims be the same? No, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore.
The fact this looks very much like a cover up is the story, not the molester.
I am not saying this to bash your school, but the way the leadership handled this says FAR MORE about the culture going on there than not having any NCAA violations. Multiple people looking the other way does not happen in an ethics first culture.
The fact this looks very much like a cover up is the story, not the molester.
I am not saying this to bash your school, but the way the leadership handled this says FAR MORE about the culture going on there than not having any NCAA violations. Multiple people looking the other way does not happen in an ethics first culture.
He doesn't get that. All he sees is everyone being mean to JoPa and PSU. Rose colored glasses will do that to you.
The fact is that the college did put money above all else, athletics or academics. I keep saying that higher education in this country is the next bubble to burst. It's the 800 pound pink gorilla in the corner of the room that everyone is ignoring. These days, colleges are cash cows first and foremost. Education and community are a very distant second. ANY scandal cuts into profits, so they have a vested interest in doing whatever is necessary to shove them under the rug.
College campus police operations should never report to or be responsible to college administrations. The opportunity for malfeasance is too great. :(
He doesn't get that. All he sees is everyone being mean to JoPa and PSU. Rose colored glasses will do that to you.
. :(
Paleeeze! The media came up with the narrative that there was some sort of cover up. There is no evidence to support any of that, just pure speculation based on a few snippets of Paterno's testimony that the AG decided to include in the Grand Jury PRESENTMENT.
A lazy mind and naive trust in the media will do that to you. The media lies, exaggerates , and embellishes everything they report on......but they are being straight up with this story????
The college bubble is an unrelated issue and took it's roots from the same ideology that gave us the housing crash. The idea that everyone should be able to go to college and loans should be given to anyone is the issue. The easier It is for people to get cash, the higher the price of the commodity will go.
Paleeeze! The media came up with the narrative that there was some sort of cover up. There is no evidence to support any of that, just pure speculation based on a few snippets of Paterno's testimony that the AG decided to include in the Grand Jury PRESENTMENT.
A lazy mind and naive trust in the media will do that to you. The media lies, exaggerates , and embellishes everything they report on......but they are being straight up with this story????
The college bubble is an unrelated issue and took it's roots from the same ideology that gave us the housing crash. The idea that everyone should be able to go to college and loans should be given to anyone is the issue. The easier It is for people to get cash, the higher the price of the commodity will go.
Paleeeze!??? Really?
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/blog/dr_saturday/post/Joe-Paterno-told-a-grand-jury-he-8216-knew-ina?urn=ncaaf-wp11597
Testimony: Paterno "knew inappropriate action was taken byJerry Sandusky" in 2002
What did Joe Paterno know, and when did he know it?
Today, we have some answers to the crucial question from the coach's mouth after Paterno's testimony from earlier this year — in which the now-former Penn State icon told a grand jury that he had been informed about an incident of "a sexual nature" between ex-defensive coordinator Jerry Sandusky and a young boy in 2002 — was read for the first time in open court.
In the testimony, Paterno said he "knew inappropriate action was taken by Jerry Sandusky with a youngster" after a meeting with then-graduate assistant Mike McQueary, who allegedly saw Sandusky sexually abusing a boy in a locker room the shower the previous night, but did not inform police and waited several days to meet with his boss, athletic director Tim Curley, because he "didn't want to interfere with their weekends."
Sandusky, who played and coached under Paterno for more than 30 years prior to his retirement in 1999, remained a regular on Penn State's campus until his arrest on a multitude of sexual abuse charges last month.
Paterno's testimony was read as part of a preliminary hearing for Curley and another Penn State administrator, Gary Schultz, who are both charged with perjury and failure to report for not turning Sandusky in following a meeting with McQueary in 2002. (Paterno wasn't present at the hearing, which came less than a week after the soon-to-be 85-year-old was reportedly hospitalized with a fractured pelvis after falling in his home. He's also been undergoing treatment for lung cancer.) A judge ruled at the end of the proceedings that the state has enough evidence to send the case against Curley and Shultz to trial.
McQueary — a State College native and former starting quarterback who remained on Paterno's staff until Paterno was fired as a result of the scandal last month — took the stand this morning, testifying that he personally saw Sandusky with his arms wrapped around a boy's waist in a shower, and believed (although he was not 100 percent certain) that the boy was being sodomized. He immediately called his father, and they decided he should to go to Paterno the next day. In that meeting and the subsequent meeting with Curley and Schultz, McQueary said he was clear that he was describing an "extremely sexual" act (emphasis added): He said he did not give Paterno explicit details of what he believed he'd seen, saying he wouldn't have used terms like sodomy or anal intercourse out of respect for the longtime coach.
He said Paterno told him he'd "done the right thing" by reporting what he saw. The head coach appeared shocked and saddened and slumped back in his chair, McQueary said. Paterno told McQueary he would talk to others about what he'd reported.
Nine or 10 days later, McQueary said he met with Curley and Shultz and told them he'd seen Sandusky and a boy, both naked, in the shower after hearing skin on skin slapping sounds.
"I told them that I saw Jerry in the showers with a young boy and that what I had seen was extremely sexual and over the lines and it was wrong," McQueary said. "I would have described that it was extremely sexual and I thought that some kind of intercourse was going on."
That testimony is substantially the same as the one McQueary reportedly gave to the grand jury earlier this year. Today, McQueary said he thought Curley and Schultz took his report seriously, and that he considered Schultz law enforcement because his position included oversight of campus police. "I thought I was talking to the head of the police, to be frank with you," McQueary said. "In my mind it was like speaking to a (district attorney). It was someone who police reported to and would know what to do with it."
What they did with it, according to the Pennsylvania Attorney General, is essentially nothing: In its summary of the initial charges against Sandusky on Nov. 5, the AG's office wrote that "there is no indication that anyone from the university ever attempted to learn the identity of the child who was sexually assaulted on their campus or made any follow-up effort to obtain more information," and "there was no effective change in Sandusky's status with the school and no limits on his access to the campus."
In his testimony this afternoon, Curley disputed that conclusion, arguing that McQueary "did not indicate there was something of a sexual nature" between Sandusky and the boy during their meeting, and that he understood the incident as "horsing around." He responded by telling Sandusky he was banned from coming into the building with children from his charity, the Second Mile, but otherwise did not restrict access. (University president Graham Spanier signed off on the ban, according to the attorney general, "without any further inquiry.")
Curley didn't report the incident to the police, he testified today, because "I didn't think it was a crime at the time." In Curley's defense, attorney Roberto argued that McQueary failed to convey the seriousness of what he'd seen to Paterno, that the allegations subsequently came across as "not that serious" to Curley, and that it seemed to amount to a case of "he said, she said."
Schultz did not testify today, but in a grand jury testimony read at the hearing, he said he was under the impression (from his meeting with McQueary) that Sandusky and the boy were wrestling and Sandusky grabbed the boy's genitals in a "horsing around" type of way. This was consistent with Sandusky's general demeanor, Schultz said, because "he would grab you on the arm, hit you on the back, grab you and put you in a headlock."
Sandusky had been implicated as a possible sex offender as early as 1998, when university police were involved in an investigation following "allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky and young boys in the football showers." At least two detectives in that case reportedly heard Sandusky admit to showering with a boy on two different occasions, once to the boy's mother and once in an interview with the state's child welfare agency, but the case was closed after the county district attorney (now deceased) declined to prosecute. Schultz told the grand jury he was aware of the investigation that Penn State police had produced a 95-page report.
Sandusky retired from Paterno's staff a year later at the age of 55, but maintained an office in the Lasch Football Building and had "unlimited access to all football facilities," including the locker room. He also kept a parking pass, a university Internet account and a listing in the faculty directory.
In 2008, according to USA Today, Sandusky ended his involvement with the charitable program, The Second Mile, amid accusations by another adolescent male. As recently as 2009, he was still running an overnight football camp for children as young as nine on Penn State's campus. He was still working out on campus as recently as October — after university officials had been called to testify in the investigation that ultimately led to Sandusky's arrest. Sandusky told the New York Times earlier this month that he still has his keys.
At that point, Sandusky faced more than 25 felony counts of deviate sexual intercourse, aggravated indecent assault, unlawful contact with a minor, endangering the welfare of a child and indecent assault against at least eight victims over more than a decade. He was subsequently re-arrested last week on 12 additional counts involving two additional victims.
Paterno, Curley, Schultz and Spanier have all "resigned" or been fired from their jobs in the wake of the charges. McQueary has been put on administrative leave and reportedly told players on a conference call last month, "I wanted to let you guys know I'm not your coach anymore. I'm done." Legally, prosecutors have determined that McQueary, Paterno and Spanier fulfilled their obligations under state law.
The Penn State Board of Trustees has appointed a special committee to investigate the university's response, as has the U.S. Department of Education and the NCAA. This is the system at work.
FYI, I don't blindly trust the media. I trust my own nose. A complaint crosses my desk from a retired LEO regarding a "vandalism" suspect earlier this week. He's filed a police report, documented evidence and a whole supporting host of other information to paint the suspect as a drug using crazy that's endangering others. Open and shut, right? Three days later, I'm shutting him down and telling both of them to never waste my time again, just because they're both banging the same woman and they've been feuding for 6 months. :rolleyes:
None of the BS these PSU folks are slinging passes the smell test. Just critically analyze some of the bolded statements above, which they're on court records as saying with their own mouths. It would take the stupidest jury in the world (or fanatical PSU acolytes) to believe what they're trying to pass off as their wide eyed innocence. It's nice that there are people like you that believe in the inherent goodness of people I guess. I don't have that luxury. My innocence was lost long ago. :(
Your making my point. There is usually more to the story and when all have to look at is a PRESENTMENT from the PROSECUTION there literally is, by definition, WAY more to the story.
I never defended Curley and Shultz. I did think that from the first microsecond the story broke the media set their sights on Paterno and has driven the narrative that way ever since.
After all, all the presentment has of Paterno's testimony are a few comments. Do you think he really drove all the way down there and said 3 sentences?
As I said before, people need to wait until they hear the other 99% of the story.
montanadave
01-14-12, 18:19
The Washington Post has published the first interview with Joe Paterno since the Penn State/Sandusky scandal broke. Folks can read the interview and draw their own conclusions: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/joe-paternos-first-interview-since-the-penn-state-sandusky-scandal/2012/01/13/gIQA08e4yP_story.html
An excerpt from the article cited above:
"He [Paterno] reiterated that McQueary was unclear with him about the nature of what he saw — and added that even if McQueary had been more graphic, he’s not sure he would have comprehended it.
“You know, he didn’t want to get specific,” Paterno said. 'And to be frank with you I don’t know that it would have done any good, because I never heard of, of, rape and a man. So I just did what I thought was best. I talked to people that I thought would be, if there was a problem, that would be following up on it.'"
WTF? Paterno was a practicing Catholic, attended mass on campus, his wife was active in a number of Catholic charities, the Catholic church had been embroiled in priest sexual abuse scandals for decades, the sexual abuse in the Boston diocese had blown wide open in 2002, generating headlines across the globe, and Paterno had never heard of "rape and a man."
Think whatever you want. I call bullshit.
Paleeeze! The media came up with the narrative that there was some sort of cover up. There is no evidence to support any of that, just pure speculation based on a few snippets of Paterno's testimony that the AG decided to include in the Grand Jury PRESENTMENT.
.
And, if there is a bright side to this whole affair, everybody will get a chance to tell their side of the story in court - twice! Because as soon as the criminal trial is over, EVERYONE involved will a chance to clear their good name in a civil trial.
And, since there is no cover up, I am sure JoPa, and the rest of Penn State will have NOTHING to hide.
CarlosDJackal
01-16-12, 14:15
Paterno's reported comment over the weekend about how (paraphrase) "he did not know what to do when he was told about this pos raping a boy in the showers" just verified that he is as big a piece of dawg crap as the pedophile himself.
I just lost what little respect I had for this College Football icon.
I am surprised that Paterno's ad visors are letting him speak to the press. he is not helping himself.
Belmont31R
01-21-12, 20:58
Paterno has died: http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20563737,00.html?xid=rss-topheadlines
According to the interwebs he may still be alive. Hard to tell for sure at this stage. I recall the Lockerbie bomber played the same death bed gambit.
According to the interwebs he may still be alive. Hard to tell for sure at this stage. I recall the Lockerbie bomber played the same death bed gambit.
Really?
Looks like he is.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&gl=US&ie=UTF-8&source=android-browser&q=is+joe+paterno+dead
Strange I am watching Fox News and no mention if it.
For a forum that is supposed to be full of people who would never believe anything written in a gun magazine, it is surprising to see People Magazine and The Salt Lake City Tribune being quoted as sources. According to his son who is 10 feet from him, he is still alive.
For a forum that is supposed to be full of people who would never believe anything written in a gun magazine, it is surprising to see People Magazine and The Salt Lake City Tribune being quoted as sources. According to his son who is 10 feet from him, he is still alive.
Why are you such an ass? Did his son call you? Share your info. Stop sniping at people.
Fox is reporting he is in serious condition.
Why are you such an ass? Did his son call you? Share your info. Stop sniping at people.
Fox is reporting he is in serious condition.
Sniping?? WTF are you talking about? You put a link up to some dopey news paper in Utah.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/34497800
There was actually several links talking about this right under the link you posted fool. ESPN is saying the same thing and about 15 "news" organizations retracted their story. How the could anyone miss it?
Just like everything else regarding Paterno and this story; mostly speculation.
Belmont31R
01-22-12, 00:02
Sniping?? WTF are you talking about? You put a link up to some dopey news paper in Utah.
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/34497800
There was actually several links talking about this right under the link you posted fool. ESPN is saying the same thing and about 15 "news" organizations retracted their story. How the could anyone miss it?
Just like everything else regarding Paterno and this story; mostly speculation.
We will all await your wisdom on this matter and institute a stand down until you are have approved each post.
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