View Full Version : VLTOR A5 and the Marine Corps
EzGoingKev
11-10-11, 05:40
Originally I had read this stock was developed for/with the Marine Corps so they could update their rifles. Lots of people are using it on carbines with great results but I have not heard anything regarding whether the Marine Corps is going live with it throughout the FMF.
Does anyone have any news/updates specifically and only about what the Marine Corps plans are regarding this stock?
EDIT - I am looking for updates on the disposition of procurement of the VLTOR A5 for the FMF. I am not interested in the history of the USMC, how many weapons are in service, or any other bullshit.
Eurodriver
11-10-11, 06:16
Does anyone have any news/updates specifically and only about what the Marine Corps plans are regarding this stock?
Have you ever served in the Marine Corps? Not implying anything by that, I'm genuinely curious.
The Marine Corps is the cheapest bunch of SOBs in the entire US Government. For our first 100 years of existence we actually returned part of our budget back to the treasury at the end of the fiscal year. We've stolen plywood to build official USMC buildings on US Naval bases (See First to Fight by Gen Krulak)
The benefits to the A5 system compared to the cost of retrofitting at 200,000 M16A2s and A4s currently in service aren't worth the trouble. It may have been considered, but I doubt it ever had any serious chance of widespread implementation.
Armorers won't even get rid of shitty 1980s magazines with shitty followers and bent feedlips. I'm sure more than a few people have seen senior SNCOs bending feedlips with a Gerber to get their mags to function.
About this time last year, there was an RFI or RFP out. The gist was that the Corps was looking to see about kitting out 5000 M16A4s with a collapsable stock.
The whole thing appears to be setup for testing, but not much beyond that, at this point. I'm practically giddy, anticipating the howls of apoplexy...
Example: Every single buttnugget in a drillmaster billet, or SNCO with some scintilla of perceived power or subject-matter expertise in that arena, is going to be flinging brickbats at the idea, as if the Corps hasn't kept neutered or otherwise M1s, M14s and the like around for color-guards and other frippery, and as if the dudes in the UK weren't able to do drill with a bullpup rifle.
I've been meaning to poke somebody's shoulder about this, too....
Why do I have to go get my Dictionary every time Santoro posts?:p
Why do I have to go get my Dictionary every time Santoro posts?:p
Seriously :)
scin·til·la (sn-tl)
n.
1. A minute amount; an iota or trace.
2. A spark; a flash.
What about apoplexy, Wise guy? :p
Tried to find that one too...couldn't because I mis-spelled when typing into google. HA. Here we go..
ap·o·plex·y (p-plks)
n.
1. Sudden impairment of neurological function, especially that resulting from a cerebral hemorrhage; a stroke.
2. A sudden effusion of blood into an organ or tissue.
3. A fit of extreme anger; rage:
Maybe we could get a thesaurus in the stickies section? Pleaseeeee
Eurodriver
11-10-11, 08:17
Hah! He must have trouble at work. Using those words around marines takes balls.
Hah! He must have trouble at work. Using those words around marines takes balls.
That's what I'm getting at. ;)
I guess this was one of those "When we tell you to jump" deals that actually led to commercial success for a DoD supplier (Vltor).
Happy Birthday to the USMC, by the way.
Why do I have to go get my Dictionary every time Santoro posts?:p
I'll play your little game: Why DO you need a dictionary....? :D
Seriously, one might notice that the trend is vocabulary = verbal tire-iron whenever I end up yammering on about somebody's truly stupid reasons for liking/disliking something.
In this case, however, the guy that actually brought up f**king close-order drill as a viable reason to stick with a fixed stock across the board in a room full of gunfighters got called a "symbolism-over-substance ass bandit." The tsunami of idiocy was so overwhelming that I couldn't come up with any 4+ syllable words quickly enough to let him know where he stood.
Anyhow, I told myself I was gonna pay closer attention to what status of the A5 stock + A2/A4 I could, and it turns out that I haven't followed through with that.
I'll play your little game: Why DO you need a dictionary....? :D
Seriously, one might notice that the trend is vocabulary = verbal tire-iron whenever I end up yammering on about somebody's truly stupid reasons for liking/disliking something.
In this case, however, the guy that actually brought up f**king close-order drill as a viable reason to stick with a fixed stock across the board in a room full of gunfighters got called a "symbolism-over-substance ass bandit." The tsunami of idiocy was so overwhelming that I couldn't come up with any 4+ syllable words quickly enough to let him know where he stood.
Anyhow, I told myself I was gonna pay closer attention to what status of the A5 stock + A2/A4 I could, and it turns out that I haven't followed through with that.
I keep spreading this around. Not sure if it's authorized for the USMC, but I doubt its a big deal for it to be accepted as it's TACOM approved and readily availible.
The "Collapsible Stock Kits" are AAL now for the M16A2/A4. You can order them and have them installed by you direct support maintenance unit/BSB. BSN pricing is around $100 for the whole kit.
The kit is basicly a M-4 receiver extension and stock, carbine buffer spring and a "H-6" buffer. They are not VLTOR A5's. I believe that they are also authorized for branches other than the Army, but I'm not posative.
Info added
PS 703
JUN 11
Hybrid Buttstock Authorized
A new hybrid buttstock kit is now available for the M16-series rifle. You couldn’t get away with it before, but now it’s authorized. It reduces the length of the weapon for improved flexibility in confined spaces or close combat. The new buttstock is also more ergonomically friendly. Order the buttstock kit with NSN 1005-01-569-6938. It’s authorized by CTA.
Support will install the buttstock following the instructions in WPs 0021 and 0025 in TM 9-1005-319-23&P. They need to pay special attention to Step 13 in WP 0025-8, which gives the correct torque for the buttstock’s round plain nut. Armorers need to keep the old buttstock. When an M16 is turned in, it must be returned to its original configuration, which means the old buttstock must be put back on.
The original article in PS Mag had an error in the art work. It looked like a UBR, but they have since published a correction.
From another tread on LF:
Originally posted by Armtech:
The M16 Series Rifle Sliding Buttstock Conversion Kit consists of all standard M4/M4A1 NSN parts EXCEPT for the H6 Buffer Assembly. The H6 Buffer Assembly contains "6" tungsten buffer weights. The buffer body also has a different part number, but I think that is only because it has an H6 marking. DMR-This reduction in parts to stock just about insures the VLTOR A5 won't get approved.-DMR
Originally posted by Armtech:
Robert, No problem. I found some more info while keeping my desk chair from floating away...
The H6 Buffer weighs the same as the standard M16A2 Buffer (0.32 lbs.). For those with DTIC access https://www.dtic.mil/DOAC/home.search, there are a few test reports that discuss this configuration. Do a search for "m16 upper hybrid." The Endurance and Temperature Test results document nearly 200,000 rounds fired.
For the LOGI's:
1005-01-569-6938 Stock Gun (Collapsible for M16A2/A4) $117
SOS SMS, SCMC 9M, ARC -X, RC-F, CIIC -7, AAC-D, UI-EA
Eurodriver
11-10-11, 09:15
I'll play your little game: Why DO you need a dictionary....? :D
Seriously, one might notice that the trend is vocabulary = verbal tire-iron whenever I end up yammering on about somebody's truly stupid reasons for liking/disliking something.
In this case, however, the guy that actually brought up f**king close-order drill as a viable reason to stick with a fixed stock across the board in a room full of gunfighters got called a "symbolism-over-substance ass bandit." The tsunami of idiocy was so overwhelming that I couldn't come up with any 4+ syllable words quickly enough to let him know where he stood.
Anyhow, I told myself I was gonna pay closer attention to what status of the A5 stock + A2/A4 I could, and it turns out that I haven't followed through with that.
Even when you use normal words, its still hard to comprehend. Need more yuts and oorahs and stuff. Like...
"We want A5 tubes, yut...dont have yet...oorah..."
Oh, can I guess what the Marine who suggested close order drill looks like?
Why do I have to go get my Dictionary every time Santoro posts?:p
I just use context clues, haha
Even when you use normal words, its still hard to comprehend.
:lol: "normal" words.
I'm gonna tell all the other mods you guys are picking on me.... :(
DMR, I remember that....I think we had recent opportunity to snipe at somebody here, because he was more concerned with the fact he thought it looked "gay" on a gun with a 20" barrel, vice being concerned as to whether or not it allowed the gun to be fit the user without impacting reliability; form over function BS like that. Hell, if anything, that'd be a goad for the Corps to adopt a similar system, from a "Wellllll, the Aaaaaaaaarmyyyyy did it.....!" perspective. Gotta keep up with the Jonses, and all.
Euro, I think we've seen the same video:
"What if I were to tell you.....Devil Dog ooh-rah semper fi yut-yut?"
"I don't understand a single word you're saying! Are you retarded?"
Why do I have to go get my Dictionary every time Santoro posts?:p
I know! Using such a difficult word such as:
Butt nugget (noun)
Any unwanted chunky debris hanging within the recess of one's butt. Butt nuggets normally require a concentrated effort in order to remove them, such as but not limited to: heavy wiping with toilet paper, or hot water and soap.
(From the Urban Dictionary)
:p
Butt nugget (noun)
Iraqgunz said he saw you at the Magpul dealio.
Littlelebowski
11-10-11, 11:03
Oh, can I guess what the Marine who suggested close order drill looks like?
I'll bet money he was sporting a stupid mother****ing horseshoe.
Like talking to a bunch of smart lawyers, I feel smarter after reading JSantoro's posts :D
Hah! He must have trouble at work. Using those words around marines takes balls.
Hardly - just leads to nice, simple, very one-way conversations. And repeating yourself a lot.
As for the H6/M4 vice the A5/H5 setup, the former sounds stupid, and would lead to using the simpler M4 pattern stock. Balance would be crap, and about the only thing I could say positive about is that short females could reach the trigger, but be no better off than if they were simply handed M4's.
At this point, I'm seeing widespread issue as a DOA item, simply because the budget isn't going to be there, the impetus won't be viewed as quite so urgent (holy shit did the MTV suck to try shooting off of) because we have SPCs for the most part, and on a cost analysis basis the A5 would have to either be a mass replacement (upgrade all A4s), otherwise it's logistically easier to just issue M4's to short people and BILLETS where it makes sense to have M4's. I figure SNCOs and Officers will still get their lighter chow hall companions, but c'est la vie.
EzGoingKev
07-19-13, 15:24
Any updates now that some time has gone by?
BufordTJustice
07-19-13, 16:44
I'll second Kev's inquiry. I'm curious as well.
Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2
Since these are in "The System", is there value added in retrofitting USGI M4's with the these stocks?
I thought they decided a couple of years ago that a carbine RE and spring along with an H6 buffer did what they wanted.
Canada uses a carbine RE and spring with an H2 on their rifles and they work fine.
dookie1481
07-20-13, 10:45
Have you ever served in the Marine Corps? Not implying anything by that, I'm genuinely curious.
The Marine Corps is the cheapest bunch of SOBs in the entire US Government. For our first 100 years of existence we actually returned part of our budget back to the treasury at the end of the fiscal year. We've stolen plywood to build official USMC buildings on US Naval bases (See First to Fight by Gen Krulak)
The benefits to the A5 system compared to the cost of retrofitting at 200,000 M16A2s and A4s currently in service aren't worth the trouble. It may have been considered, but I doubt it ever had any serious chance of widespread implementation.
Armorers won't even get rid of shitty 1980s magazines with shitty followers and bent feedlips. I'm sure more than a few people have seen senior SNCOs bending feedlips with a Gerber to get their mags to function.
The Marine Corps is so ****ing cheap that at one point we got a new gear system because the Army allegedly didn't want it. The MOLLE system had PLASTIC pack frames. I saw 2 frames broken within an hour of issuance.
littlejerry
07-20-13, 13:24
Does anyone have any performance data on the h6?
I've got a 20" rifle that needs a collapsible stock. I'd buy an a5 emod kit in a heartbeat if I could find one in stock. Been looking for over 6 months and no luck.
If the h6 works I'll buy one today.
Any updates now that some time has gone by?
They are looking to start procurement in FY 14, with an IOC of 15 and FOC of FY18.
Does anyone have any performance data on the h6?
I've got a 20" rifle that needs a collapsible stock. I'd buy an a5 emod kit in a heartbeat if I could find one in stock. Been looking for over 6 months and no luck.
If the h6 works I'll buy one today.
The H6 works. Damage Industries was the only people I know of who sold 'em and they will not sell 'em to civilians. WTF over??
Use an H2. It works. Canada has been using it for years. I used it with a BCM 20" upper and a Colt lower. Worked perfect.
The use of the H2 with the 20" barrel and collapsible stock did not meet USMC reliability requirements.
EzGoingKev
07-21-13, 11:47
They are looking to start procurement in FY 14, with an IOC of 15 and FOC of FY18.
Thank you.
The H6 works. Damage Industries was the only people I know of who sold 'em and they will not sell 'em to civilians. WTF over??
It looks like they are selling them here -
http://damageusa.com/product/h6-buffer-upgrade-kit
littlejerry
07-21-13, 12:03
The use of the H2 with the 20" barrel and collapsible stock did not meet USMC reliability requirements.
Any idea of what those reliability requirements are?
I don't doubt that the H2 was unacceptable(I believe I read that MRBS fell to 30 with the system).
I'm curious to see any data or results comparing the H6 upgrade to the A5 system or even standard rifle buffer.
An H3 with green Springco spring will work. You also don't need an A5 kit. Tubes are available and the buffers are slowly trickling out. You can use any stock.
Does anyone have any performance data on the h6?
I've got a 20" rifle that needs a collapsible stock. I'd buy an a5 emod kit in a heartbeat if I could find one in stock. Been looking for over 6 months and no luck.
If the h6 works I'll buy one today.
Thank you.
It looks like they are selling them here -
http://damageusa.com/product/h6-buffer-upgrade-kit
Snap it up.
They were out of stock a few months ago. They told me that if they got any more, they wouldn't sell them to a lowly civilian like me.
The use of the H2 with the 20" barrel and collapsible stock did not meet USMC reliability requirements.
Hmmm...
I'm wondering on this one, as the H2 with 20" barrel has been in use in Canada for 10 years - and I know the did a metric buttload of testing (in excess of 15 guns taken to 20k round each thru environmental etc) - MRBF was higher than rifle buffer system.
Did the USMC use new guns or old for the testing?
New weapons. The testing was between a standard M16A4 with Rifle Buffer and Spring, a M16A4 with the Army's H6 upgrade and an M16A4 with an A5 system (5.33 oz buffer).
Did the USMC use new guns or old for the testing?
Roger that.
Why the H6? It was the M855A1 buffer IIRC - with the USMC using 855 and SOST, I don't think they need crazy stupid heavy like the Army needs with their retardo ammo.
They are looking to start procurement in FY 14, with an IOC of 15 and FOC of FY18.
I would love to see the A5 get more play, picked up as a O-ffical milspec part...
But with the draw down that's bound to be coming... I wouldn't place any bets. Then again, there is Syria to keep this ball rolling. If they can use an H6 buffer, I suspect that's what they would go with considering the cost.
That said, I look my precision AR out this weekend, 8.8lbs with scope and bipod, between the A5H3 and SF muzzle brake, it was noticeably faster for follow up and back on target than other guns. Love it.
littlejerry
07-22-13, 20:23
New weapons. The testing was between a standard M16A4 with Rifle Buffer and Spring, a M16A4 with the Army's H6 upgrade and an M16A4 with an A5 system (5.33 oz buffer).
Any data you can share? Did the H6 beat the others or was it merely acceptable?
And what was deemed acceptable?
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