View Full Version : Switching to one pistol
So after reading numerous threads on training with one pistol/weapon system. I have decided to do it. The problem is which one. Again I have read numerous threads that topic also, but I am still undecided.
I have HKs (P30 + HK45), a M&P45, and Glocks (17gen3+20). All seem to have there +'s and -'s. The HK's cost and parts, the M&P9 accuracy, and the Gen 4 glock's possible reliablity issues and my gen3 isn't as reliable as my HKs. I want to concentrate on 9mm for my Wife and I.
My grip seems to support the Glock the best for pointability. The others require me adjust to get sight alignment. The glocks have the best support (I already have a 22 conversion kit).
So the overall best package?
Parts and accessories availability and cost, caliber, and accuracy would seem to fall in favor of the Glock.
You also say the Glock points more naturally for you, which would lead me to think would make it easier to shoot (at least possibly requiring less training to shoot effectively, i.e. less fighting the gun).
From that I would choose the Glock and from a reliability stand point the Gen 3 17. But then I already have. I consolidated myself a few years ago and the G17 Gen 3 became my daily carry and for many of the reason you mentioned yourself. Reliability, parts availability, initial and maintenance costs, caliber, etc.
All that being said, any of the weapons you listed should prove to be more than adequate.
All three are top of the line gun makers. What you should pick what boils down to your overall personal preference and what is most logical to your situation. Sounds like you are leaning towards the Glock, which is as good of a choice as the other three. My "personal" preference goes towards the P30, but that is my choice, not yours.
Those three handguns you listed are all good guns and widely used by the members here on this board...especially Glock and M&P. By asking which one you should consolidate with, all you will get is biased answers pointing you in the direction of the answerers' favorite gun.
You really need to just ask yourself, which do you trust more from a reliability standpoint, which do you shoot better, and which feels best in your hand. If there isn't one gun that fits ALL those criteria, then you may have to make compromises. The one compromise I wouldn't make is on reliability. But the choice is ultimately yours.
Originally I had decided on the HK, it is a great pistol. It is very accurate and has been 100% reliable, but again the lack of sights that I like and the fact my grip keeps the slide from locking back have me second guessing that choice.
Unfortunately my gen3 G17 hasn't been 100% and I like a right side mag release (carry over from HKs), so that means gen4.
I want to like the M&P, but like I said the early unlocking/accuracy issues give me doubts.
Originally I had decided on the HK, it is a great pistol. It is very accurate and has been 100% reliable, but again the lack of sights that I like and the fact my grip keeps the slide from locking back have me second guessing that choice.
Unfortunately my gen3 G17 hasn't been 100% and I like a right side mag release (carry over from HKs), so that means gen4.
I want to like the M&P, but like I said the early unlocking/accuracy issues give me doubts.
You shouldn't have problems with early unlocking with the M&P45...the 9mm are the ones with the issues. Unless I missed something along the way about issues with the 45 too?
Sounds like a great idea, I am almost in your boat as well. I am staying with 2 calibers at least.
My M&P45 has been great, no problems. But thats not what I hear about the 9's. It would seem that the HK and M&P have better multi caliber systems, which I like. The capacity and price of 9mm have me almost exclusively shooting that caliber.
I was hoping for a piece of wisdom to descend from the internet to help me decide.
My M&P45 has been great, no problems. But thats not what I hear about the 9's. It would seem that the HK and M&P have better multi caliber systems, which I like. The capacity and price of 9mm have me almost exclusively shooting that caliber.
I was hoping for a piece of wisdom to descend from the internet to help me decide.
Well here's the deal. I shoot M&P9 with no problems at all. Is it a tack driver? No, but neither am I at the moment (I don't get to practice enough). Can you get "combat accuracy" and make your hits in a defensive situation? Absolutely. I proved that to myself in the Vickers HD/Shoothouse Class I just took last weekend. Is it reliable? Most certainly. After shooting about 4000 rds out of my two M&P9s, I have yet to have a stoppage that cannot be attributed to the cheap ammo I shoot for training.
However, like I said in my post above, I will not recommend the M&P to you because first I am biased, and second, it may not be what's right for YOU.
ETA: I shoot my M&P9 completely stock too...no aftermarket parts.
Nephrology
11-13-11, 16:17
For 9mm I recommend you go with the Glocks but that's just me, quite honestly from the list you put out there you won't go wrong.
I say pick M&P or Glock just to save the money on holsters + parts. To me the M&Ps and Glocks are basically identical, its just a question of where you want six of one or half dozen of the other.
Ive had all the choices you mention and have settled on Glocks, mostly due to the trigger characteristics. I find a stock Glock trigger to be better than M&P & HK. That was the deciding factor, for me.
i also chose the 9mm Glock platform. i chose this for its simplicity and the ability to completely strip it down and replace any parts as necessary. im one of the strage ones that fit a Glock 17 perfectly and it points naturally for me.
i also like the fact that i can have 3 different frame sizes and 5 different barrel lengths that all fit different roles but all use a majority of spare parts and magazines from the bigger frames can be used for all as spares/reloads.
Glocks never pointed right for me until I tried to really choke up on the gun and lock my wrist, now they point perfect. The problem is nothing else does, so I end up using what I feel is a weaker grip, with the HK it recoils so soft that it doesn't seem to matter, the m&p45 isn't as forgiving.
You shouldn't have problems with early unlocking with the M&P45...the 9mm are the ones with the issues. Unless I missed something along the way about issues with the 45 too?
I don't think you missed anything. I can't recall everyreading a user report poor accuracy from a .45 M&P. Most good shooters report match grade precison.
Choose the one you shoot the best. Sounds like it is the Glock. I went round and round with the decision, started with a sigs, went to M&Ps, tried the company issued glock for a while and now I am back to sigs. They just seem to work the best for me.
If you like the glock and the glock fits you don't let the internet rumblings keep you from using it. A lot of people talk $hit about new sigs but I have owned 4 sigs in the last few years and 3 of them were new. The only west german one I had was the most inaccurate piece of jammomatic crap I have ever owned so it is completely different from what the internet cowboys say.
good luck.:happy:
Failure2Stop
11-14-11, 01:48
The P30 has the flat out best ergonomics of any pistol on the market. A slight tweak of your grip or a minor alteration of the slide release will alleviate the slide override issue. If you already own it, the cost is irrelevant. A sufficiently locked-out wrist is entirely possible with any platform. Replacement parts are available, as are sights.
The G19 is a solid choice as well, in fact it is my default recommendation to buyers, but it's ergonomics are behind the P30, and I am not ready to recommend the Gen4.
The P30 has the flat out best ergonomics of any pistol on the market. A slight tweak of your grip or a minor alteration of the slide release will alleviate the slide override issue. If you already own it, the cost is irrelevant. A sufficiently locked-out wrist is entirely possible with any platform. Replacement parts are available, as are sights.
The G19 is a solid choice as well, in fact it is my default recommendation to buyers, but it's ergonomics are behind the P30, and I am not ready to recommend the Gen4.
+1
H&K is consistantly one of the best handgun makers on the planet. They make production pistols with a semi-custom level of design, materials, and quality controls. Decade after decade, buyers have been confident in using H&K products. Virtually every other company out there has had periods of poor quality, and thus certain years of production that you want to avoid. Not so with H&K.
In regards to the P30, it was one of the few pistols out there that I have been able to pick up cold for the first time, shoot a course of fire with it, and shot it better than I have done with a Sig which I have carried with the Feds for 15 years. The ergos of the gun make it a very intuitive shooter, it is extremely accurate, and reliable/durable. However, it is a German hammer fired pistol. So it is very similar to a Sig in terms of grip angle and slide height. Probably why I can interchange the two and shoot either just as well. If I could pick any gun out there to replace my Sig with, it would be a P30.
RogerinTPA
11-14-11, 07:26
My M&P45 has been great, no problems. But thats not what I hear about the 9's. It would seem that the HK and M&P have better multi caliber systems, which I like. The capacity and price of 9mm have me almost exclusively shooting that caliber.
I was hoping for a piece of wisdom to descend from the internet to help me decide.
I have found my M&P45 and 40 to be the most accurate and least problematic, but my 9 and 9c are no slouches either. Both have well over 12K rounds fired on them and have survived multiple pistol (1000-1500 rounds in a weekend) and carbine courses.
I don't think you missed anything. I can't recall everyreading a user report poor accuracy from a .45 M&P. Most good shooters report match grade precison.
This is true..I have a Mid-size .45, I had Heinie's and a Apex FSS installed, It is very,very accurate, very reliable, The way I have it set up, I would'nt hesitate to use it as a CCW.The 9mm M&P's (I also have one) are hit and miss at best, some are pretty accurate and others are'nt, mine is mediocre at best, accuracy seems to fall apart after 15yds or so, I can't fault it as far as reliabilty goes,But I could'nt reccommend to anyone simply because of the accuracy varations from one pistol to the next. I also can't see dumping money into it for a Apex/Bar-sto replacement barrel,I went to another platform instead, a Walther PPQ, HK ergos, HK performance, at about $200 less. At least with the M&P .45's, you're buying a known quanity,That responds well to modifcations like the Apex FSS.
domestique
11-14-11, 11:59
I do not have experience with the M&P 45 other than being on my GAS list.
But I do have a Springfield Custom shop 1911 and a M&P 9mm which Grant at G&R did a DCAEK work up on..... The trigger is obviously better on the 1911, but I can shoot the 9mm just as accureately as the 1911.
The M&P are great guns and as money premits I plan on buying more.
H&K is consistantly one of the best handgun makers on the planet. They make production pistols with a semi-custom level of design, materials, and quality controls. Decade after decade, buyers have been confident in using H&K products.
Having been out and around for a good number of years, I've seen a pretty decent number of agencies and users who would not agree with your statement.
From the night sights visible from FRONT and BACK, to the 'click n no bang' of a large midl-western agencies USP40 pistols, and then the infamous customer service, HK has been their own worst enemy. Quirks and problems are present with HK, just like other manufacturers, and their problems with customer service haunt them to this day.
I was in your position several years ago, having shot 1911's, and HK's in USP 9mm and 45. when I went to work after the military we used Glocks, the 17 to be specific. I began shooting with the Glock so much that I have all but put other guns aside. I have the Glock family 17, 2x19's and a 26 all Gen 3 guns. I have the 19's with the surefire x300 as bedside guns for myself and my wife. I like that the 17 mags are interchangeable to the 19 and 26.
I have patterned my Glocks in 9mm and I still have my 1911's and my HK USP .45 tactical in .45.
Sorry, should have read the whole first post...
If I had to get rid of all my handguns but one, my Glocks (3), Sigs (2), & 1911 would go out the door & I'd keep my HK P30.
That's just me though. Everybody's different.
Originally I had decided on the HK, it is a great pistol. It is very accurate and has been 100% reliable, but again the lack of sights that I like and the fact my grip keeps the slide from locking back have me second guessing that choice.
Unfortunately my gen3 G17 hasn't been 100% and I like a right side mag release (carry over from HKs), so that means gen4.
I want to like the M&P, but like I said the early unlocking/accuracy issues give me doubts.
Heinie sights are available, Dawson makes front/rear sets, Ameriglo is a maybe and 10-8 should have their new rear sight available within the next few months.
Obtain some P2000 slim levers and you should never be bothered by the grip issue.
Due to ammo costs nine millimeter is the only way to go IMO.
IMO, the P30 is good enough to make a few accommodations to fit your shooting style, a big plus is you already have one.
Skyfire1201
11-16-11, 15:58
This is gonna be a somewhat long post akin to a rant, so bear with me :)
I think it all boils down to what you plan to do with this system of handguns, something that wasn't . If your goal is to shoot paper targets at the range, then any pistol listed above should do.
But if you plan to use it for defense, or save it for SHTF scenarios, then the list narrows down considerablly. All the schools I've been to places reliability at the top of the list (some argue reliability is the ONLY criteria), and given how modern industrial production works, it basically boils down to statistics: which pistols have been shot the most, with all the bugs worked out, and proven to be simple and reliable? At the end, it's a numbers game with mass produced mechanical devices.
If you use these criteria, the answers basically boils down to Glock 9mm/.40, Beretta 92F, and 1911. I don't mean to sound like a Glock-phile (I still consider the Glock inferior from an ergonomics standpoint compare to HK, I mean, which modern pistols these days don't have ambi mag release by default??), but the answer I consistently hear from trainers and industrial professionals point to the Glock 9mm gen3 guns, like the G19 and G17. Not the Gen4 (LAV once said if you have a gen4 Glock that functions well, go out and buy a lottery ticket now, and the guy knows his guns), but the tried and true Gen3. The people I've trained from: LE officers, ex-special forces, competition shooters, pretty much all consider Gen3 Glock 9mm to the goto gun. I respect their opinion.
As for 9mm vs all other caliper, again the advice I've received is to stick to the caliper I train the most with. With handguns, shot placement is more important than size of the bullet (all handgun bullets are in the low velocity wounding camp, including the "mighty" 44mag, which to say they pretty much all suck compare to high power rifle rounds). A 22lr that hit the target is 100% more effective than a 45acp that missed. The money spent on training will give you much more bang for the buck than switching to a bigger bullet or buying more guns. And best of all, that's investment you can take with you, and apply to just about any gun you shoot, it doesn't get any better than this.
One last small thing: there are more parts, tools, info available for Glocks in the USA than just about any other pistol (except perhaps the 1911, but then again, which version of the 1911?). If I were to rely on a firearms system for SHTF scenarios or zombie apocalypse, I'm gonna bet on one with the most reliability, availablility of parts and accessories (like holsters), and commonality of ammo.
Just my 2 cents ;)
Heinie sights are available, Dawson makes front/rear sets, Ameriglo is a maybe and 10-8 should have their new rear sight available within the next few months.
Obtain some P2000 slim levers and you should never be bothered by the grip issue.
Due to ammo costs nine millimeter is the only way to go IMO.
IMO, the P30 is good enough to make a few accommodations to fit your shooting style, a big plus is you already have one.
I wish they would hurry up with the sights already, and I have tried to get the levers, but no luck so far. I agree that 9mm is the way to go.
Skyfire1201,
The P30 is my ccw at the moment. I do want to have a system of weapons that I can train with and use for any other purpose. Punching holes in paper is not the reason I want to do this, but how I train with them I guess. I keep looking to the Glocks, They support my grip the best and with a few inexpensive upgrades they seem pretty good to go. The problem is I bought a Gen 3 17 and it isn't the most reliable so far. The Hk still takes the prize. I need the same weapon for my wife and she can work with anyone of my choices. I want to like the glock for its price, simplicity, etc, but so far I feel like no matter what I do I'm losing something, and I want to win.:)
I wish they would hurry up with the sights already, and I have tried to get the levers, but no luck so far. I agree that 9mm is the way to go.
According to Sara at Heinie's they should be back in stock next week.
You can order the slim levers from HK customer service, prepay them and you will get them when they receive stock from Germany.
Sent using Tapatalk
So after reading numerous threads on training with one pistol/weapon system. I have decided to do it. The problem is which one. Again I have read numerous threads that topic also, but I am still undecided.
I have HKs (P30 + HK45), a M&P45, and Glocks (17gen3+20). All seem to have there +'s and -'s. The HK's cost and parts, the M&P9 accuracy, and the Gen 4 glock's possible reliablity issues and my gen3 isn't as reliable as my HKs. I want to concentrate on 9mm for my Wife and I.
My grip seems to support the Glock the best for pointability. The others require me adjust to get sight alignment. The glocks have the best support (I already have a 22 conversion kit).
So the overall best package?
That depends on what you shoot well. All are great pistols. I have done this numerous times myself and I always come back to Glock. 17/19/34/26 work great for me. For whatever reason I seem to feel very comfortable shooting Glocks in 9mm. However, if you go beyond 9mm and you want to stay with the same system, HK is probably the better choice if you shoot them well. Personally I have never shot Sig or HK quite as well as I shoot a Glock or 1911. Not sure if anyone else can tell the difference, but I can, which is all that matters. But as someone said earlier, that's me and not you.
Skyfire1201
11-17-11, 01:08
The problem is I bought a Gen 3 17 and it isn't the most reliable so far. The Hk still takes the prize. I need the same weapon for my wife and she can work with anyone of my choices. I want to like the glock for its price, simplicity, etc, but so far I feel like no matter what I do I'm losing something, and I want to win.:)
Gen3 17 is by all accounts one of the most reliable Glocks ever made, not just me saying so, but in all accounts by industry professionals. I think you may have a bad sample. Send it back to Glock and have them fix it, or consult a local Glock certified armorer to diagnose the problem. Most problems on the older (non-Gen4) Glocks are well understood with known remedies.
As for losing something, my take is there is no perfect system, it's all gives and takes. One of my local trainers who swear by Glocks openly admit it sucks, but at least it sucks in consistent ways (I think he meant the shortcomings of Glocks are well understood and can be compensated for). Pick a reliable weapon system that doesn't have any deficiencies you can't overcome (like the lack of ambi controls if you are a lefty, or a slide release so hard to press it's next to useless), and just train with it to compensate for those short comings.
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power.
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power. Ya' think?:rolleyes:
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power.
I have both of those platforms, and while I enjoy shooting them, I believe the pistols I'm considering have more to offer.
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power.
Welcome to 2011.
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power.
Negative.
St.Michael
11-17-11, 21:00
Negative.
LMAO. Funny
I have a funny thought. We always go over what pistol is best for "parts" and such. But if we are buying a gun cause it has the most parts sitting around does that mean it's going to break down a bunch? Also if SHTF and your weapon fails you there isn't a 100% that you will need parts later if the weapon fails at a moment of need for your life. Just a thought.
Keep what you like most.
Alaskapopo
11-17-11, 21:54
So after reading numerous threads on training with one pistol/weapon system. I have decided to do it. The problem is which one. Again I have read numerous threads that topic also, but I am still undecided.
I have HKs (P30 + HK45), a M&P45, and Glocks (17gen3+20). All seem to have there +'s and -'s. The HK's cost and parts, the M&P9 accuracy, and the Gen 4 glock's possible reliablity issues and my gen3 isn't as reliable as my HKs. I want to concentrate on 9mm for my Wife and I.
My grip seems to support the Glock the best for pointability. The others require me adjust to get sight alignment. The glocks have the best support (I already have a 22 conversion kit).
So the overall best package?
Glock by far. HK makes a good pistols but I hate the triggers on those and their cost is way too high for what you get. The M&P's are fine but I prefer Glock but I have shot them for a while. The Gen 4's I have shot (a 22 and 17) have been fine now that they have the recoil spring issue worked out for the 9mm. I want a Gen 17 17 to replace my Gen 3 and will probably do it on the LEO SWAP a glock program Glock has.
Pat
Alaskapopo
11-17-11, 21:59
Depends what you want it for.
For protecting yourself, the serious shooters will carry either the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power.
Really. Umm the 1970's called and want their post back.
The 1911 and the Hi Power is usable but most serious shooters are using something else mostly Glock and HK.
Pat
St.Michael
11-17-11, 23:41
Really. Umm the 1970's called and want their post back.
The 1911 and the Hi Power is usable but most serious shooters are using something else mostly Glock and HK.
Pat
hahaha
Alaskapopo
11-18-11, 00:26
hahaha
Not sure what you are laughing about. Delta has been using Glock 22s. The Glock 19 is also popular with a lot of SF types. Glocks own the LEO market here. I have thousands of rounds through my Glock 17 without a malfunction and that is not something I could say with the Wilson Combat CQB that used to be my duty gun. The 1911 is a fine gun but its like a race car. You need to stay on top of its maintance intervals and its not very forgiving. The Glock is a work horse that gives you day in and day out reliablity. As for HK they are very popular with some well respected people like Larry Vickers. The Browning Highpower has a terrible trigger in my experience of owning 3 of them. The reset is long and the pull unless modified is hard. (sometimes as much as 8 pounds) They fit the hand nicely but the trigger sucks. Not anyone serious I know carries one.
pat
St.Michael
11-18-11, 01:46
Not sure what you are laughing about.
pat
I was LOLing at the 1970s joke :lol:
Alaskapopo
11-18-11, 03:51
I was LOLing at the 1970s joke :lol:
Ok sorry about that.
Pat
I used to have 1911s, Glocks, M&Ps, and SIGs. Now I just have SIGs. I shoot them better than anything else (save for 1911s), and they are for SD/HD as I do not compete. I have found since switching to all-SIG my shooting has gotten much better since I am working with one manufacturer and can focus on the nuances of that gun. I commend you for seeing the long view of going with what works best and mastering that one gun, regardless of which gun you choose.
I used to have 1911s, Glocks, M&Ps, and SIGs. Now I just have SIGs. I shoot them better than anything else (save for 1911s), and they are for SD/HD as I do not compete. I have found since switching to all-SIG my shooting has gotten much better since I am working with one manufacturer and can focus on the nuances of that gun. I commend you for seeing the long view of going with what works best and mastering that one gun, regardless of which gun you choose.
I've been working on, and using Sigs as a LEO for the better part of 15 years. I've probably serviced around 1000 Sigs in that time of all makes, models, and years. The best years for Sig are long gone. I still have a few W. German guns in my collection and their quality and materials put the new guns to shame. DOI has thousands of W. German P228s in their inventory, most have around 20k-50k rounds through them and their overall wear is less than most of the newer railed P229Rs that we have with less than half the round count. The replacement parts that we buy from Sig are also not lasting as long. Now that Sig is using Checkmate magazines, softer alloys are used in the frame and slide to reduce machining costs, and more and more parts are becoming MIM when the guns were originally designed to have stronger machined steel parts.......it's just going to get worse. I simply cannot recommend Sigs to anyone who is serious about defense. If this were 1995, I'd say the opposite.
Companies simply cannot make an alloy framed DA/SA pistol now days in the price range of their polymer framed competition with top end quality and materials. Virtually all alloy framed pistols now days are shadows of their previous generation models because of all the cost cutting measures manufacturers put on the guns to compete in the modern market place. With the current value of the dollar, and increased demand from Asia for all types of metals, making an old style Sig with top end materials and quality controls would cost around $1500. When you can purchase a top end H&K for $800-$900, you just cannot justify the benefits of an alloy framed pistol at double the price. When I first started with DOI in 1996, the stigma of polymer guns not being as accurate, reliable, and durable as alloy framed guns was still strong and it lasted until the early 2000s. This misconception kept up alloy framed gun sales, and the quality of those pistols was elevated as well. Now days, not so much.
I think Robert's take on hanguns(and ammo) sums it all up very nicely. I've spent many thousands of dollars experiementing with different handgun makes/models, years of manufacture, and calibers. After all that fiasco, my conclusions seem to mirror Robert's conclusions:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
"If you want a Glock, get it in 9 mm, as the pre-2011 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks are probably the most proven pistols available.
The HK45 and HK P30 are good reliable service pistols, but beware of HK customer service and parts availability.
These days, skip new Sigs, although the older German made Sig 9 mm’s are superb...
Unless you are issued one and have no other choice, forget Beretta.
XD's are a no go for serious use--the inability to retract the slide without engaging the grip safety makes one-hand injured operation very difficult with the XD--this is a deal breaker for me. In addition, in some government tests, XD's (particularly the .40's) have broken a lot of parts compared to other pistols being tested...I'll take a 9 mm Glock or M&P any day of the week over an XD.
The M&P may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date. I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant issues. Up to this point, we have not seen any major problems yet with M&P's--they just keep steadily improving. The Apex duty kits offer a substantial improvement to the M&P trigger feel. An M&P w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to patrol duties again.
A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf.
After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for the past 25 years, in 2011 I have retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit.
After having gone through the juvenile collector stage of idiotically wasting money by purchasing one or two of every type of service pistol ever produced, I finally grew-up and realized it is far better to strive to master one quality pistol type, then be perpetually mediocre with many. I strongly recommend purchasing two or three identical pistols once you have decided upon the model that you plan to use, carry, and train with. I dedicate one pistol for carry after thoroughly vetting function with 1000 or so rounds through it. Another identical pistol is solely used for training--it is shot till it breaks with minimal cleaning or babying during its service life. If I am able to afford a third pistol, it serves as a back-up to the other two and usually sits in an easily accessible safe as a readily available personal defense weapon mounting an x300 light.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to carrying it. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use."
I've been working on, and using Sigs as a LEO for the better part of 15 years. I've probably serviced around 1000 Sigs in that time of all makes, models, and years. The best years for Sig are long gone. I still have a few W. German guns in my collection and their quality and materials put the new guns to shame. DOI has thousands of W. German P228s in their inventory, most have around 20k-50k rounds through them and their overall wear is less than most of the newer railed P229Rs that we have with less than half the round count. The replacement parts that we buy from Sig are also not lasting as long. Now that Sig is using Checkmate magazines, softer alloys are used in the frame and slide to reduce machining costs, and more and more parts are becoming MIM when the guns were originally designed to have stronger machined steel parts.......it's just going to get worse. I simply cannot recommend Sigs to anyone who is serious about defense. If this were 1995, I'd say the opposite.
Companies simply cannot make an alloy framed DA/SA pistol now days in the price range of their polymer framed competition with top end quality and materials. Virtually all alloy framed pistols now days are shadows of their previous generation models because of all the cost cutting measures manufacturers put on the guns to compete in the modern market place. With the current value of the dollar, and increased demand from Asia for all types of metals, making an old style Sig with top end materials and quality controls would cost around $1500. When you can purchase a top end H&K for $800-$900, you just cannot justify the benefits of an alloy framed pistol at double the price. When I first started with DOI in 1996, the stigma of polymer guns not being as accurate, reliable, and durable as alloy framed guns was still strong and it lasted until the early 2000s. This misconception kept up alloy framed gun sales, and the quality of those pistols was elevated as well. Now days, not so much.
I think Robert's take on hanguns(and ammo) sums it all up very nicely. I've spent many thousands of dollars experiementing with different handgun makes/models, years of manufacture, and calibers. After all that fiasco, my conclusions seem to mirror Robert's conclusions:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
"If you want a Glock, get it in 9 mm, as the pre-2011 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks are probably the most proven pistols available.
The HK45 and HK P30 are good reliable service pistols, but beware of HK customer service and parts availability.
These days, skip new Sigs, although the older German made Sig 9 mm’s are superb...
Unless you are issued one and have no other choice, forget Beretta.
XD's are a no go for serious use--the inability to retract the slide without engaging the grip safety makes one-hand injured operation very difficult with the XD--this is a deal breaker for me. In addition, in some government tests, XD's (particularly the .40's) have broken a lot of parts compared to other pistols being tested...I'll take a 9 mm Glock or M&P any day of the week over an XD.
The M&P may just be the best LE service pistol produced to date. I was involved in a M&P40 trial at a large agency where four M&P40's fired 7000 rounds each in 1 week without any significant issues. Up to this point, we have not seen any major problems yet with M&P's--they just keep steadily improving. The Apex duty kits offer a substantial improvement to the M&P trigger feel. An M&P w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit will be the service pistol I'll pick if I ever go back to patrol duties again.
A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or even a G21sf.
After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for the past 25 years, in 2011 I have retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit.
After having gone through the juvenile collector stage of idiotically wasting money by purchasing one or two of every type of service pistol ever produced, I finally grew-up and realized it is far better to strive to master one quality pistol type, then be perpetually mediocre with many. I strongly recommend purchasing two or three identical pistols once you have decided upon the model that you plan to use, carry, and train with. I dedicate one pistol for carry after thoroughly vetting function with 1000 or so rounds through it. Another identical pistol is solely used for training--it is shot till it breaks with minimal cleaning or babying during its service life. If I am able to afford a third pistol, it serves as a back-up to the other two and usually sits in an easily accessible safe as a readily available personal defense weapon mounting an x300 light.
Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to carrying it. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use."
Thanks. That was a very informative and knowledgable post. My CC gun is a p239, my 'home' gun is a W German p226 (1987). I have it serviced so it remains in good funtional order. For better or worse, it is what I shoot well.
According to Sara at Heinie's they should be back in stock next week.
You can order the slim levers from HK customer service, prepay them and you will get them when they receive stock from Germany.
Sent using Tapatalk
I've had levers on order for almost a year, and HK says maybe next year. The sights I want are the ameriglo, or Trijicon HD's
TacMedic556
11-18-11, 15:58
1*
Glock 19's Gen 3.
Then get all the spare parts you want to last you the next millennium from either:
http://www.ombguns.com/
http://www.ombexpress.com/c-161-handgun-parts.aspx
or www.theglockstore.com
I bought pertty much every spare part I could ever need for a Glock, just in case. It was cheap and peace of mind. Not that I will ever need them any time soon. After seeing the abuse many of them take from LE friends, I may never get a chance to use the parts.
“The only purpose for a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down.” -Clint Smith
Skunk Pilot
11-20-11, 02:25
....
I have HKs (P30 + HK45), a M&P45, and Glocks (17gen3+20). All seem to have there +'s and -'s. The HK's cost and parts, the M&P9 accuracy, and the Gen 4 Glock's possible reliability issues and my gen3 isn't as reliable as my HKs. I want to concentrate on 9mm for my Wife and I.
My grip seems to support the Glock the best for pointability. The others require me adjust to get sight alignment. The Glocks have the best support (I already have a 22 conversion kit).
So the overall best package?
I had a Glock G23C before and didn't like the ergos that much.
I am loving my M&P9L with Apex FSS.
However if your wife also likes the ergos of the Glock, I think I would go with the Glock for you and your wife. Especially since you have the 22lr conversion already. Maybe you should send in your Glock to the factory like someone suggested then you should be all set.
I'm planning on going with the M&P platform, but in your case I'd say the Glock Gen 3 9mm for sure.
---
KhanRad, thanks for that DocGKR link, I forgot about that excellent post.
I've had levers on order for almost a year, and HK says maybe next year. The sights I want are the ameriglo, or Trijicon HD's
Seems odd, I got my levers in three months.
Alaskapopo
11-20-11, 08:07
Seems odd, I got my levers in three months.
Three months still sucks.
Pat
Maybe they forgot about me, but three months is way better than a year.
I did the same not long ago. I took all my handgun's to the range Glock's, CZ's XD's and HK's I shot my HK's much better than anything else. Sold or traded to all HK. The HK45c i shoot better than all. Just got another one yesterday. Plus narrowed down to 9mm and .45's.
HK prices have and are going lower. I have another P30s 9mm on order with night sights for $824 delivered. Plus a life time of use more money is not that much imo...good luck
I did the same not long ago. I took all my handgun's to the range Glock's, CZ's XD's and HK's I shot my HK's much better than anything else. Sold or traded to all HK. The HK45c i shoot better than all. Just got another one yesterday. Plus narrowed down to 9mm and .45's.
HK prices have and are going lower. I have another P30s 9mm on order with night sights for $824 delivered. Plus a life time of use more money is not that much imo...good luck
where are you purchasing the HKs from?
I would say the P30, if it had a better trigger. But since it does not, then a Glock 17 or 19.
i've consolidated all to HKs in 9mm
I use to have a USP40 Compact, but I wasn't a big fan of the .40 (personally I think it's an overrated intermediate round) and the cost benefit over the 9MM wasn't worth it to me.
Best decision I've made.
I went through a collector phase like a lot of others. The good thing from all this is I have a little of everything, but recently I have started trying to trim the fat. I have determined, with some insights from this forum, that my money is better spent on training. I still have a few Hks, which was the direction I was heading.
Which leads to my range time this weekend. I switched out the slide release on the P30 with a borrowed one and it is better but not 100%. The G17 had less brass in my face with a light attached also.
Great Post on this thread!!
I enjoyed reading this one. I to debated this issue. I'm no expert, but in my limited experience I have come to the conclusion having all my pistols in pretty much one configuration makes me more consistent and accurate. I don't shoot as often as I should or wish I could, so being consistent is what I have to strive for.
I have owned a few different platforms, but after a training class and reading Don Mann's "The Modern Day Gunslinger" I am convinced a Glock type set up (i.e no safety, consistent trigger pull, ready to rock from draw) is the way for me. Of those options I ended up really liking the M&P.
Now I just need to add a full size 40 a compact 9 and a long slide 10mm (I can dream right?). :smile:
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