View Full Version : Good barrier blind load that is safe for the M1A?
Lately I've been working on building up a good stock of quality defensive ammo for my primary calibers, and at the moment I'm working on 308.
I laid in a good supply of 155gr TAP, which seems to be the good doc's preference for an all-around load for unobstructed shots (Wideners has a killer sale on this stuff now, BTW). I'd like to get a couple hundred rounds of something with better intermediate barrier performance as well. Looking through Doc's recommendations, the load that seems most available and cost effective is the 150gr Fusion.
Do any of y'all know if this load is OK to use in the M1A? I'm concerned about burn rate and port pressures and the like. I wrote Federal, but got a more-or-less canned response that the only load they recommend for the M1A is that American Eagle A76251M1A load with some unspecified OTM. It's a good load, but not for the purposes I'm after.
If the fusion is a no go, are there any other loads from the recommended list that may be better? Mk319 Mod 0 perhaps?
Whatever I get will also potentially be used in a pair of DSA FALs. I'm not as worried about those, though...Can always just open up the regulator if the load appears to be functioning the action too briskly.
also looking on info on this as i have just come into an m14. i was planning to keep some 155g tap around for its fantastic terminal performance. i thought that the .308 duty ammo thread said that 155g tap offered good performance through intermediate barriers?
further more.....if we are on the subject of 155g tap, could some one tell me the difference between 155g tap FPD and 155g tap LE? ( other than the color of the cases and and that FPD stands for for personal protection, and LE stands for law enforcement) .....sorry just had to make sure that wasn't going to be an answer i received. thank you.
When I still had my M1As I never had any issues from the Core Lokt Bonded in 150gr flavor. I doubt I put more than 200 rounds of that ammo through each of my guns though.
BullittBoy
11-15-11, 10:33
If you shoot at a car with .308 FMJ there is no place to hide, except directly behind the block. It is a great pentration round.
That round is way better than 5.56, 6.8, 6.5, or .300 Blackout and if anything I would be worried about OVER penetration
I have shot 150 lb pigs with FMJ and it bowls them over like a Mack Truck.
The newer German DAG is supposed to fragment, so maybe the British, Port, or Privi that is out there now would be a good stash ammo for barrier blind.
The current .308 rifle loads that best meet terminal performance and intermediate barrier requirements when fired from a 16" barrel semi-auto, include the Remington 150 gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bond JSP, followed by the Speer 150 gr Gold Dot JSP, and Swift 150 gr Scirroco bonded PT. These loads also work well in M1A's.
The M1A I am forced to use likes the 155 gr AMAX very much, so I don't mind loading up with them, but I remain cognizant of the bullet's capabilities.
Thanks! I appreciate the info.
I'm not seeing the 150gr Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded in stock at any of my usual online vendors, but I'll keep looking. Might be able to turn up a bit locally as well...
If you shoot at a car with .308 FMJ there is no place to hide, except directly behind the block. It is a great pentration round.
That round is way better than 5.56, 6.8, 6.5, or .300 Blackout and if anything I would be worried about OVER penetration
I have shot 150 lb pigs with FMJ and it bowls them over like a Mack Truck.
I assume you are referring to M80 Ball. Along the same lines, I've never heard any complaints from GI's about M1906 Ball, M1Ball, M2 Ball, or my favorite, M2 AP, in three wars.
Littlelebowski
11-15-11, 18:34
I assume you are referring to M80 Ball. Along the same lines, I've never heard any complaints from GI's about M1906 Ball, M1Ball, M2 Ball, or my favorite, M2 AP, in three wars.
I've never heard any complaints about muskets either; must mean they are the pinnacle of technology.
Do you know what a barrier blind load is why the OP was asking?
I assume you are referring to M80 Ball. Along the same lines, I've never heard any complaints from GI's about M1906 Ball, M1Ball, M2 Ball, or my favorite, M2 AP, in three wars.
I've never heard any complaints about muskets either; must mean they are the pinnacle of technology.
Sorry, I wasn't aware that my favorite didn't work anymore....nevermind.
Littlelebowski
11-16-11, 11:58
Sorry, I wasn't aware that my favorite didn't work anymore....nevermind.
It may or may not work OK but going on and on about "well, the vets never complained about it so it must be still relevant despite what the SME who researches this for a living says" argument.
Did you specifically query veterans from three wars about barrier blind performance with said ammo? Come on, give us the details.
This is not the forum where arguments consisting of "so and so weapon was used in the wars so it's therefore better than newer and more modern designs."
Facts, not emotion.
Do you know what a barrier blind load is why the OP was asking?
Not sure of what you are asking due to the wording of your post but here goes.....
I was not referring to the original post by kerplode. My post was in response to bullittBoy's post "If you shoot at a car with .308 FMJ there is no place to hide, except directly behind the block. It is a great pentration round."
It may or may not work OK but going on and on about "well, the vets never complained about it so it must be still relevant despite what the SME who researches this for a living says" argument.
Did you specifically query veterans from three wars about barrier blind performance with said ammo? Come on, give us the details.
This is not the forum where arguments consisting of "so and so weapon was used in the wars so it's therefore better than newer and more modern designs."
Facts, not emotion.
Emotion?
My post was not about this or that cartridge, current or past, which is better or worse. It was about a hardened steel core .30 projetctile at 2700fps. Doesn't matter what case it was stuffed in or the platform it was launched from. Results will be the same.
As for the rest of it.....
http://hwsportsman.net/M1poster.gif
Littlelebowski
11-16-11, 12:31
Yup, just as I expected. "Real weapons are made from wood and steel only and only are chambered in .45 or .30, durp durp."
Not the right forum for that stilted and faulty line of reasoning.
Ok, you win.
Now what was the original poster asking?
so doc, where does 155g fall short? what are its limitations? what makes the soft points a better option? also difference between FPD and LE in .308?
The 155 gr AMAX is extremely effective in open air unobstructed shots, but it can have more issues going through intermedieate barriers compared to the bonded Barrier Blind loads.
The 155 gr AMAX is extremely effective in open air unobstructed shots, but it can have more issues going through intermedieate barriers compared to the bonded Barrier Blind loads.
Doc, i have read your LE .308 duty thread more than a few times and i am still having trouble understanding. i understand that the sp ammo does much better through barriers than the 155g amax, and i understand that the 155g amax does much better than smk's through barriers (which i understand isn't hard to accomplish) but, what happens to an amax through a vehicle door, window, or house door? is the projectile coming through the other side of the obstruction in tiny little ineffective fragments? is it completely ineffective or does it just perform inconstantly? what exactly happens?
BullittBoy
11-18-11, 09:30
I was merely trying to let the OP know that a lot of M80 7.62 rounds will do the job better than 5.56 or 6.8 simply due to the power of the cartridge and he is not going to be "under gunned" by using it.
I have access to junk cars and have shot them with 9mm, 40, .45, and 10mm in pistol and 7.62, 5.56, 6.8 and 12 ga in rifles. I have shot glass from the front and doors from the side.
The cars I shoot are 70's era when STEEL was used not all the cheap thin panels and plastic that prevails in todays cars. If a round I have tested penetrates a Grand Torino or a F150 from 1970 it will be superb in todays world.
I see what Doc recommends and then get some of the rounds and try them out, it is a lot of fun.
I was merely trying to let the OP know that a lot of M80 7.62 rounds will do the job better than 5.56 or 6.8 simply due to the power of the cartridge and he is not going to be "under gunned" by using it.
I have access to junk cars and have shot them with 9mm, 40, .45, and 10mm in pistol and 7.62, 5.56, 6.8 and 12 ga in rifles. I have shot glass from the front and doors from the side.
The cars I shoot are 70's era when STEEL was used not all the cheap thin panels and plastic that prevails in todays cars. If a round I have tested penetrates a Grand Torino or a F150 from 1970 it will be superb in todays world.
If you think your "testing" of automobile glass used in the 1970's, will be indicative of performance in automobile glass used in more recent years, you are incorrect.
I was merely trying to let the OP know that a lot of M80 7.62 rounds will do the job better than 5.56 or 6.8 simply due to the power of the cartridge and he is not going to be "under gunned" by using it.
I know what you're saying there. I have done similar things with old vehicles. I even had an old, full size school bus to experiment on. I discovered that once a bullet starts to destabilize, as it travels through multiple layers of sheet metal, it starts to break apart. The larger calibers fragmented less and penetrated more than the smaller calibers. Some 5.56 bullets almost vaporized, spraying interior compartments with tiny fragments and lead dust.
M80 Ball does well as does M2 Ball. M2 AP does best, but even the hardened penetrator can break into sections when it destabilizes while traveling through layers of sheet metal and various interior structures.
It's a 7.62 -- how thick does the barrier have to fricking be?
Testing in barriers isn't only about simple penetration, but also about the projectile's performance after passing through them.
And while firing various cartridges at various random and unknown materials, at random angles, with no medium behind them to measure terminal and post penetration accuracy performance, can certainly be interesting and entertaining, it's unwise to form sweeping opinions based on it.
Doc, i have read your LE .308 duty thread more than a few times and i am still having trouble understanding. i understand that the sp ammo does much better through barriers than the 155g amax, and i understand that the 155g amax does much better than smk's through barriers (which i understand isn't hard to accomplish) but, what happens to an amax through a vehicle door, window, or house door? is the projectile coming through the other side of the obstruction in tiny little ineffective fragments? is it completely ineffective or does it just perform inconstantly? what exactly happens?
Sorry to double up here doc but, I realy need to understand this. Just wanted to make sure you didn't miss this.
kendapp,
the AMAX breaks up and fragments into small enough pieces that they have a limited and unpredictable ability to penetrate flesh enough to cause grevious or mortal wounds.
barrier blind is as much about predictability as penetration. this is why bonded or monolithic projectiles are preferred for thier predictability thru glass (especially).
of course something that gets forgotten is that quantity has a quality all it's own. ;)
In other words...put 6 or 7 rounds through the glass and don't sweat the details?
In other words...put 6 or 7 rounds through the glass and don't sweat the details?
Quantity doesn't always trump quality.
gamewarden
12-20-11, 19:01
So if ones only patrol rifle was a US Gov't M14 would the 155 grain AMAX be a good round for general LE work? Or would our current issued Federal 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (P308F)work better? We are kind of limited to Federal, its in state...but have had AMAX in the past.
thanks for the help!
In your line of work, I'd think you would want something with good penetration and good barrier performance. Have you looked at Doc's thread on .308?
The Speer Gold Dot is made by the same corporation as Federal if that counts. California F&G uses it in their M14's and M1a's, iirc.
Has any one looked into hornady tap 168g barrier? It uses a hornady interbond plastic tip bullet. Hornadys site info looks impressive and I read on some forum a while back that stated it was impressive on elk so it must to okay in soft target unobstructed shots. Yet I don't ever see it metioned in the tactical community nor is mentioned in doc's .308 recomendations. At $25 or less per box it seems to get my attention when I run accross it for a general purpose round for my m14 but its lack of popularity make me raise an eyebrow. It this stuff snake oil?
gamewarden--The AMAX and BT offer relatively similar good soft tissue terminal performance. Neither is optimal for barriers.
gamewarden
12-21-11, 11:00
Thanks for the help. I will see what direction we want to go and maybe look at some partition rounds. I will let our division know about the Speer Gold Dot round. I guess its hard to find a round that you can use indoors, shoot through brush, but at the same time use effectively through a vehicle or similar barrier. My education continues...
The LE .308 round thread was a great read!
If your agency needs additional assistance, please contact me offline.
gamewarden
12-21-11, 14:46
Doc-
PM sent with work e-mail.
BufordTJustice
12-21-11, 23:21
So if ones only patrol rifle was a US Gov't M14 would the 155 grain AMAX be a good round for general LE work? Or would our current issued Federal 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (P308F)work better? We are kind of limited to Federal, its in state...but have had AMAX in the past.
thanks for the help!
My agency currently is in contract with ATK (Federal and Speer).
The Federal 150gr .308 Fusion bonded hunting JSP is generally of similar construction to the Speer Gold Dot. They are made in the same manner and would perform similarly. As always, Doc has the final word on this.
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