View Full Version : Malfunction drills - what are your standards?
I'm curious as to how often and which drills you do that are related to malfunction. *I was putting my "drill" schedule together for this weekend and I started considering at what point in priority of training do I implement something like "3 little kittens" or the like. *At a recent class by a known instructor, we spent around 2 hours or so working malfunctions which implies their importance I suppose. *But to a civy, how applicable do you think they are? *
Just interested in how often you work them and to what par times you consider sufficient to be "back in the fight."*
The only thing that I am able to say is that for a "defense minded civilian, malfunction drills are equally important for a serviceman or law enforcement official. I say this because if you are actually "using" your weapon for its intended purpose and have a malfunction, then at that point it doesn't matter if you're wearing a uniform or not.
With certainty, the chance of one actually using the weapon is greater if you're active military deployed to an area with active hostilities and you are outside the wire, less likely if you are the majority of LE officials, and even less likely if you're not one of the above, but my emphasis was on "defense minded".
My agency given "carbine course" dedicated several hours a day in a week long course to malfunctions.
Magic_Salad0892
11-16-11, 14:07
Something similar to ''3 Little Kittens'' IMHO is ideal, or having a friend load your mags and dick with dummy rounds, or have mags with ****ed up springs or followers is what I prefer.
I haven't really devised a ''par time'' that I like.
5 seconds?... I try for less.
One question that becomes important is: Do you have a secondary weapon to transition to? If so how far out can you shoot in a combat situation (less then 15 yds for most folks in my experience)?
If you are a superb pistol shooter capable of engaging targets out to 65-75 yds in a combat situation, and you always have your secondary then malfunction drills aren't as important as transition drills. On the other hand if you don't always have your pistol handy, malfunction drills become a huge deal.
Three little kittens and other malfunction drills are excellent ways to train unknown type of malfunctions. I'd also recommend using magazines with bad feed lips for double feed practice, and dummy rounds for FTF IAD's. If you get a chance check out Kyle Lambs Rifle Malfunctions DVD, probably the best single point source of info on the topic currently.
-Jenrick
IMHO, malfunction drills are blown WAY out of proportion. :secret:
If your gun stops with any frequency which makes you doubt it's suitability for combat, sell it and buy a new one.
I watch Police Dept's spend all kinds of time on the range having officers do one handed malfunction clearance drills at 5 yards on paper targets, while those same officers can't hardly hit those same target at 25 yards.
In order for any time standard to have meaning, that would mean that you would have to be
1) engaged in a gunfight.
2) have fired enough rounds to cause a stoppage, but not enough to take your opponent out.
3) be far enough away from your opponent (or behind sufficient cover) that you won't be burned down the moment your gun stops running.
4) be close enough that time is of the essence.
5) not have another weapon to transition to, or you are out of the useful range of that weapon.
6) have a problem with the gun that won't re-appear again immediately (broken extractor, etc.)
At the distances that most pistol fights occur within, going to a blade or empty hands is a hell of a lot more real world that standing a few yards away screwing around with a broken gun.
If it's your carbine that stopped running, who doesn't have a pistol to transition to?
Sorry for the rant, but I think a lot of people that hype up the importance of spending hours and hours on fixing broken guns often loose sight of the big picture here. It's natural for firearms trainers to want a firearms solution... but that doesn't mean it's the most appropriate (or highest percentage) solution.
Just because you're in a fight for your life and you have a gun, doesn't mean your gun is the only way to win that fight.
In order for any time standard to have meaning, that would mean that you would have to be
1) engaged in a gunfight.
2) have fired enough rounds to cause a stoppage, but not enough to take your opponent out.
You've never had the joy of a first round failure to fire?
3) be far enough away from your opponent (or behind sufficient cover) that you won't be burned down the moment your gun stops running.
4) be close enough that time is of the essence.
I've never known a gun fight where time WASN'T of the essence.
5) not have another weapon to transition to, or you are out of the useful range of that weapon.
6) have a problem with the gun that won't re-appear again immediately (broken extractor, etc.)
For LE I agree that transition is usually better option, but a whole lot of MIL folks don't have that option.
At the distances that most pistol fights occur within, going to a blade or empty hands is a hell of a lot more real world that standing a few yards away screwing around with a broken gun.
Also who the heck said anything about screwing around with a broken gun at close range? Don't read into peoples post things that aren't there. Any good instructor will tell you to figure out your own distance to transition, clear a malf, or go with plan C. Spending all your time working transitions is just as bad as never working with your secondary, tertiary, etc at all. To be able to run the gun you have to be able to fix it if it breaks.
-Jenrick
If it's your carbine that stopped running, who doesn't have a pistol to transition to?
A lot of people. Unfortunately, in my unit, unless you're an Officer, a 240 gunner, or a 1SG/CSM, you're not getting a pistol.
A major lesson learned from my last deployment was that not enough NCO's teach their soldiers how to clear the common malfunctions we face. SPORTS/POPS does not fix everything and in a no-shit gunfight, the two seconds you spend finger ****ing with your weapon trying to clear a malfunction you don't understand can get you or, worse even, one of your brothers shot in the face. I don't know how I would explain to someone's family how my inability to prepare their son got him killed.
Murphy is ALWAYS in effect and he's an asshole for sure. I've learned that the absolute worst we perform at the range is how we will perform in high-stress like combat. That's why I try to shoot as much as possible and train for as much as realistically possible. I don't know what I'm going to face, but I want to have a broad skillset to fall back on when things don't go my way. Clearing malfunctions is one of these that I believe can and does save lives.
You've never had the joy of a first round failure to fire?
I've never known a gun fight where time WASN'T of the essence.
For LE I agree that transition is usually better option, but a whole lot of MIL folks don't have that option.
Also who the heck said anything about screwing around with a broken gun at close range? Don't read into peoples post things that aren't there. Any good instructor will tell you to figure out your own distance to transition, clear a malf, or go with plan C. Spending all your time working transitions is just as bad as never working with your secondary, tertiary, etc at all. To be able to run the gun you have to be able to fix it if it breaks.
-Jenrick
Great points.
I love when people assume the circumstances of a fight!!! It really shows their mindset.
It doesn't matter what one thinks the likelihood of something happening or the circumstance under how it might happen, it still needs to be practiced and be practiced to the point of being very proficient at it. Unless all you do with the system is compete, you're practicing for a fight, do you really want to leave it to chance??
You've never had the joy of a first round failure to fire?
Not really, no.
I've never known a gun fight where time WASN'T of the essence.
To me, fixing a stoppage is about as real world as the speed reload winning a gunfight... IE: super-rare. Of all the people I know, and all of the ones they know, there have been maybe 1 or 2 instances of this in hundreds of firefights (.mil mostly, some LE).
For LE I agree that transition is usually better option, but a whole lot of MIL folks don't have that option.
Right, instead you have a squad of dudes with machine guns covering each other...
Also who the heck said anything about screwing around with a broken gun at close range? Don't read into peoples post things that aren't there. Any good instructor will tell you to figure out your own distance to transition, clear a malf, or go with plan C. Spending all your time working transitions is just as bad as never working with your secondary, tertiary, etc at all. To be able to run the gun you have to be able to fix it if it breaks.
-Jenrick
I'm not trying to read into your post, I'm just speaking from experience. A lot of people think they're good at fixing their gun, so they'll "just do that." My point is, if you go to the range and practice hours of fixing stoppages, but you don't practice dropping the gun and charging the target, or muzzle striking it with an empty/jammed up gun, or drawing a blade and stabbing your target... what do you think your default response is going to be? My bet is going to be task fixation on the gun.
Here is an example of this happening (GRAPHIC VIDEO): http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd7_1284690688
My little rant was just to emphasis the danger of constantly framing the problem as a firearms one, and always looking for a firearms solution.
In all the training I've attended, watched, read about, etc... VERY little attention has been spent on the idea that you need to abandon that gun, step up your level of violence, and go to your next best weapon.
This is why I really value training that emphasizes transitions and integrations of blade, empty hand, carbine, pistol, etc.
Great points.
I love when people assume the circumstances of a fight!!! It really shows their mindset.
By spending hours on fixing their gun, and next to no time transitioning to other weapons, closing the range, etc... that presumes that fixing your gun is your best solution. Tell me about a real world situation, that you know the details of, where a secord or three spent reloading or fixing a gun made the difference in someone's survival. I can think of Paul's (RetreatHell) firefight, but that's about it.
It doesn't matter what one thinks the likelihood of something happening or the circumstance under how it might happen, it still needs to be practiced and be practiced to the point of being very proficient at it. Unless all you do with the system is compete, you're practicing for a fight, do you really want to leave it to chance??
The likelyhood matters in determining what amount of time we spend working each specific skill and response. If if didn't, none of us would practice more with a pistol inside of 10 yards than we do at 25 yards.
We tailor our training time spent to what is of the most perceived benefit to our real world survival. We train for the most likely situations we can be expected to face.
Tell me how fixing a broken gun is LARGELY the most appropriate response? Tell me how in the majority of situations where fixing the gun IS the most appropriate response, that a few seconds is absolutely critical.
Not really, no.
To me, fixing a stoppage is about as real world as the speed reload winning a gunfight... IE: super-rare. Of all the people I know, and all of the ones they know, there have been maybe 1 or 2 instances of this in hundreds of firefights (.mil mostly, some LE).
Right, instead you have a squad of dudes with machine guns covering each other...
I'm not trying to read into your post, I'm just speaking from experience. A lot of people think they're good at fixing their gun, so they'll "just do that." My point is, if you go to the range and practice hours of fixing stoppages, but you don't practice dropping the gun and charging the target, or muzzle striking it with an empty/jammed up gun, or drawing a blade and stabbing your target... what do you think your default response is going to be? My bet is going to be task fixation on the gun.
My little rant was just to emphasis the danger of constantly framing the problem as a firearms one, and always looking for a firearms solution.
In all the training I've attended, watched, read about, etc... VERY little attention has been spent on the idea that you need to abandon that gun, step up your level of violence, and go to your next best weapon.
This is why I really value training that emphasizes transitions and integrations of blade, empty hand, carbine, pistol, etc.
I think 2 different things are being discussed here. One, the importance of practicing malfunctions and two, when to do it/not do it/transition. The first is manipulations, the second is tactics, 2 very different things.
Jim, you love assuming brother, and some of it is just as wrong as 2 boys f***ing, no offense.
You answered your own question in the first paragraph. If I'm in a gunfight, I doubt it's a one way fight, so if my gun shits, it's probably important that I get it up and running again. Under stress, you need to practice that, otherwise you'll probably just look at the gun in your hands and thinking now what, like most new shooters do when their gun shits.
Again, you're talking about 2 different things, basic manipulations (malfunctions) and tactics (when to strike, when to pull knife etc...). Training should be well rounded, nobody will argue that point.
R.
Tell me how in the majority of situations where fixing the gun IS the most appropriate response, that a few seconds is absolutely critical.
Anytime you're being shot at, time is absolutely critical. Anyone who disagrees has never been in a gunfight.
The enemy doesn't fight when it's convenient for you.
Anytime you're being shot at, time is absolutely critical. Anyone who disagrees has never been in a gunfight.
The enemy doesn't fight when it's convenient for you.
Show me an example of where fixing the gun or reloading the gun rapidy versus not won or lost the fight.
No one is saying time doesn't matter. I'm saying that in the majority of situations where you have the potential to fix a gun that stopped, show me where time HAS mattered.
I think 2 different things are being discussed here. One, the importance of practicing malfunctions and two, when to do it/not do it/transition. The first is manipulations, the second is tactics, 2 very different things.
Jim, you love assuming brother, and some of it is just as wrong as 2 boys f***ing, no offense.
R.
That's fine Rick, we all have our opinions. I've seen some of yours which I would say the same thing about.
If you want to insinuate that I'm wrong though, put up some real world examples. If I'm so wrong, it shouldn't be that hard.
Prove me wrong... I'm all ears.
Show me an example of where fixing the gun or reloading the gun rapidy versus not won or lost the fight.
No one is saying time doesn't matter. I'm saying that in the majority of situations where you have the potential to fix a gun that stopped, show me where time HAS mattered.
If you survived the fight, I would go ahead and assume it mattered. Actually, if you died, I guess it mattered too.
R.
If I'm in a gunfight, I doubt it's a one way fight, so if my gun shits, it's probably important that I get it up and running again.
That's a presumption, right there.
Describe a real world situation for me, where 2 or 3 seconds difference (a likely difference between someone who practices malfunction clearing once in a blue moon, versus weekly) makes a difference in the outcome.
What is your mission (civ., LE, .mil), where are you, where is your enemy, what do you have, what do they have?
If you survived the fight, I would go ahead and assume it mattered. Actually, if you died, I guess it mattered too.
R.
Ok, so prove to me that a few more seconds spent fixing the gun would have made a difference in the outcome.
Show me an example of where fixing the gun or reloading the gun rapidy versus not won or lost the fight.
Sure thing. Next time I'm doing a raid I'll make sure to stop doing what I do and document it for you. I do this shit almost daily, so what do I know.
The less time you spend sending gun bullets towards the bad guys is the more time they spend sending them at you. Why in the world would you NOT want to be as efficient as possible? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you have any experience gunfighting, or are you basing this all off of theory?
That is what I was thinking when I posted this. As thought proving as it may be though, I still practice the malfunction clearances.
It dawned on me as I watched 50% of the class clear these drills, that those folks were most likely not going to ever attend another class, and dont shoot very often. I dont want to judge a book by its vest mounted fixed blade, but you know what I mean... Wouldnt it have been more beneficial for those 2 hours to be allocated towards forcing those dirt shooters to actually USING their gun thus becoming more proficient with it? Im just nitpicking to stimulate discussion; but lets assume there is a growing number of people who seek out information like the Chart, thus resulting in a fairly quality firearm, but still adhering to not using it. What you have is a person whose gun may not malfunction, but instead kill the neighbor. I suppose this goes back to some form of pre-qualifier for certain training classes so the quarterly warrior is removed from the equation.
Those who work with your gun, disregard, I fully understand your POV on looking after your brothers on the left and right; I guess this only relates to a small sample size.
That's a presumption, right there.
Describe a real world situation for me, where 2 or 3 seconds difference (a likely difference between someone who practices malfunction clearing once in a blue moon, versus weekly) makes a difference in the outcome.
What is your mission (civ., LE, .mil), where are you, where is your enemy, what do you have, what do they have?
Read this. This might constitute where time (and OTHER factors) influenced the outcome. If this young soldier had performed a fast reload an emergency reload, he might have picked up the scumbag getting up and maybe would have had the chance to change things. If this isn't good enough, then I can't help you.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
Here is part of it, but read it all.
"....So, what did I do when it was time for me to reload my M16 that fateful day? I pressed the magazine release, pulled the empty magazine out of the mag well and inserted the empty magazine back into one of my mag pouches. This took a couple extra seconds to do, especially considering I was inserting it into a pretty tight pouch that already had a magazine in it. The fresh magazine in the pouch was positioned bullets-up as well, because way too many rounds would fall out of it when I tried carrying bullets down in the pouch. I'm guessing that's because the feed lips on the magazine were worn, but I knew nothing about what constituted a bad magazine back then and especially didn't know that magazines were a disposable component. After indexing a fresh magazine, I shoved it into the mag well until it seated and then finally, after at least 8 seconds, pressed the bolt release and sent another round flying into the chamber.
I was also looking down at my weapon and gear the entire time I was reloading. Thus, when I was finally done reloading and looked back in the direction of the enemy bunker only 20 yards away from me, the very same enemy fighter who I'd just shot and assumed that I had permanently put down was now standing at my 11 o’clock, at the corner of the bunker, and aiming directly at me with his AK47 assault rifle.
While I had been performing my slow and nasty reload, the Iraqi had gotten back up to his feet and stepped out of the doorway of the bunker in order to search for the American asshole who just greased his comrade and shot him too. When he didn't immediately see me in my previous location, he moved down the wall of the bunker until he spotted me standing there performing my abortion of a reload, while staring down at my weapon and gear. I had basically allowed... no, invited the bastard to get the drop on me."
Sure thing. Next time I'm doing a raid I'll make sure to stop doing what I do and document it for you.
The less time you spend sending gun bullets towards the bad guys is the more time they spend sending them at you. Why in the world would you NOT want to be as efficient as possible? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Do you have any experience gunfighting, or are you basing this all off of theory?
No one is advocating you take longer than you need to do anything.
But what are we REALLY gaining from getting super slick at fixing guns that shouldn't be stopping in the first place?
This thread started asking about how much time/ energy should be spent on this skill... I'm attempting to frame it within real world circumstances.
The argument of faster is better doesn't answer the question posed. How fast is fast enough, is the question.
If you just want to throw out the "faster is better, the end" card, then we should all be on the range 12 hours a day until we are ranked Grand Master, clean the Hackathorn Standards, shoot 685+ on The Humbler, etc.
Eventually, you have to set a benchmark for where you believe you are good enough, then move on to training other things (marksmanship, transitions, PT, communication, tactics, medicine, etc)
How much time do you want to spend on fixing your gun?
How have you justified that your time standard for this skill is critical to survival?
Why have you set your time stand at X, and not X+2 more seconds?
You're ignoring the question of PRIORITY, and that is helping nothing.
Jim, I'm new here so I will be gentle. I have trained with a lot of dudes who have killed a LOT of bad dudes. Every one of these trainers teaches malfunction clearence and puts a good deal of stress on it, this is a clue.
Somewhere out there is a video of a female cop using her rolling squad(she forgot to put it in park) for cover as she perfectly clears a double feed and engages multiple badguys armed IIRC with long guns.
Talk to enough gunfight veterans and you will learn that really weird shit happens in combat. I never would have thought brass could bounce off a wall and back into the ejection port until I saw it happen. That gun that has never malfunctioned may surprise you when it gets knocked out of battery in a hands on fight. I have heard a third hand story of a guy using the badguys eye socket to catch the sights and rack the slide. Is that "violent" enough for you?
Shit happens, we fix it and drive on.
ETA: re reading the posts, it seems we are stuck on speed. While faster is better it is not necessarily the goal. The goal should be to do it right smoothly, efficiently, and consistantly speed is only a byproduct of that. %95+ of the shooters I have seen on the square range with little or no stress stop and do nothing for a sec when they get a malf. How reliably can these people perform the task when they are tired, hurt, and scared?
Read this. This might constitute where time (and OTHER factors) influenced the outcome. If this young soldier had performed a fast reload, he might have picked up the scumbag getting up and maybe would have had the chance to change things. If this isn't good enough, then I can't help you.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=38540
Rick, this is the one single instance I already mentioned earlier in this thread. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1146265#post1146265
Care to point out any others?
Ok, so prove to me that a few more seconds spent fixing the gun would have made a difference in the outcome.
You're in the low ground. They're in the high ground to your 3 and 9. You are ambushed by approximately 25 Booger Eaters using PKM's and RPG's. You're the lead fire team and you need to gain fire superiority so your assault element can close in and shoot the Booger Eaters in the dome piece.
Double feed.
Now what? Your fire team just lost 1/4th of its combat effectiveness while they wait for you to un**** yourself. Just sit in the low ground taking your sweet time or execute immediate action as quickly as possible to get back in the fight? You never know where the enemy are going to shoot and those extra three or four seconds you gained by practicing your reloads/clearance drills could be the three or four seconds that let you either keep the enemies head down or put him in the dirt.
Or they could be the three to four seconds that earn your mom and pop a free flag.
There is absolutely no logic in not being as efficient as possible with fighting with your weapon.
Jim, I'm new here so I will be gentle. I have trained with a lot of dudes who have killed a LOT of bad dudes. Every one of these trainers teaches malfunction clearence and puts a good deal of stress on it, this is a clue.
Somewhere out there is a video of a female cop using her rolling squad(she forgot to put it in park) for cover as she perfectly clears a double feed and engages multiple badguys armed IIRC with long guns.
If she was behind hard cover, what would have happened if she took 3 more seconds to finish fixing it than she did? My bet is not much.
How was her marksmanship in the video? If you want to link it here, lets look at it. Would time spent on that have benefited her more?
Talk to enough gunfight veterans and you will learn that really weird shit happens in combat. I never would have thought brass could bounce off a wall and back into the ejection port until I saw it happen. That gun that has never malfunctioned may surprise you when it gets knocked out of battery in a hands on fight. I have heard a third hand story of a guy using the badguys eye socket to catch the sights and rack the slide. Is that "violent" enough for you?
Shit happens, we fix it and drive on.
In a hand on fight, the problem before you needs to be fixed before the gun can be fixed (what I was getting at with my first post).
No argument that shit happens, and no-where have I said you shouldn't know how to fix a stopped gun. I'm talking about where that sits on your list of priorities...
Rick, this is the one single instance I already mentioned earlier in this thread. https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1146265#post1146265
Care to point out any others?
Well **** ME!!!! How many do you need?????? If it happened here, why would you not think it happened elsewhere??? Face it, your theory is shot. If you're just looking for someone to agree with you then sorry, not your guy.
I think the point has been made.
There is absolutely no logic in not being as efficient as possible with fighting with your weapon.
No, but there is logic in prioritizing your training.
Where are you drawing the line on "how fast is fast enough?" and "how much time and I willing to dedicate to this skill?"
I'm still waiting on those real world examples where it made the difference...
No one is advocating you take longer than you need to do anything.
But what are we REALLY gaining from getting super slick at fixing guns that shouldn't be stopping in the first place?
.
Possibly your life, possibly not being in a wheel chair!!!! ARE YOU FOR REAL??? Your argument is getting ridiculous now.
If she was behind hard cover, what would have happened if she took 3 more seconds to finish fixing it than she did? My bet is not much.
.
WOW!!! You have never been in a gun fight have you???? I would rather get it over now, than 3 seconds from now. In 3 seconds some asshole can have 3 extra seconds to put a hole in me. Is that concept really that hard to understand???
Well **** ME!!!! How many do you need?????? If it happened here, why would you not think it happened elsewhere??? Face it, your theory is shot. If you're just looking for someone to agree with you then sorry, not your guy.
I think the point has been made.
More than 1.
Spending hours every fews weeks to address a 1% problem isn't an effective use of training time.
Rick, I don't much care what YOU think of my "theory being shot"... you haven't been able to find anything else to backup your "train it all the time!" approach.
I'm still waiting on those real world examples where it made the difference...
I just gave you one. I believe I'm still here to this day because of it.
I'm still waiting for your real world experience where your opinion on this topic is relevant at all.
Possibly your life, possibly not being in a wheel chair!!!! ARE YOU FOR REAL??? Your argument is getting ridiculous now.
Rick, practicing jumping out of a moving car might save my life one day too, but I'm not going to practice that a few times a month.
It's percentages and priorities... somehow you keep missing that.
I just gave you one. I believe I'm still here to this day because of it.
I'm still waiting for your real world experience where your opinion on this topic is relevant at all.
My experience isn't relevant. The conversations I've had with guys with hundreds of gunfights under their belts, are.
My experience isn't relevant. The conversations I've had with guys with hundreds of gunfights under their belts, are.
And that's all I needed. So you have no first hand experience and therefore do not understand the mindset required to close in and destroy someone actively trying to harm you.
I'm going to sleep. Have a good day Jim.
To the OP, sorry for derailing your thread.
This has officially "Jumped the Shark"
R.
This has officially "Jumped the Shark"
R.
Rick, ask Kyle Defoor or JD Potynsky how many gunfights they know of where a quick speed reload or malf. clearance saved the day.
Ask them where they put malf. clearances on their list of priorities.
Go ahead, I have. While you're at it, ask them about my mindset and how I shoot.
We already know you think you know better than folks like these though, you're probably one of the most closed minded people I know on here who like to think they know what they're talking about: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1075699#post1075699
Do you have anything of sustance to offer this discussion, or just more one liners?
I just gave you one. I believe I'm still here to this day because of it.
I'm still waiting for your real world experience where your opinion on this topic is relevant at all.
Ok, so you were already behind cover, you had other guys putting fire on the BG's, and you believe that a few seconds more spent fixing that malfunction would have changed the outcome that day?
(legit question, not being snide...)
Another statement to show you have a big ZERO for mindset.
We tried to explain and show you that you're wrong. Yet it's not good enough for you.
The fact that you have 0 experience doesn't mean much, but instead of paying attention and learning from guys that do, you kept spewing babel, and I have a closed mind?!!?!?
My mind comes from experience, from doing, from actually being there, and not just regurgitating ridiculous information because I heard OTHERS that did it. If I come across as close minded then so be it. It's probably because I have little patience for people like you in the industry. You don't have a hair on your ass, but are full of opinions, not even good ones.
There's a lot more to this than shooting hero!!!!
And BTW, I can also drop some big names that advocate the use of the slide grab as opposed to the slide lock. Keep showing your ass!!!
Now go back and don't practice something because you might get good at it.
R.
Rick, ask Kyle Defoor or JD Potynsky how many gunfights they know of where a quick speed reload or malf. clearance saved the day.
Ask them where they put malf. clearances on their list of priorities.
Go ahead, I have. While you're at it, ask them about my mindset and how I shoot.
We already know you think you know better than folks like these though, you're probably one of the most closed minded people I know on here who like to think they know what they're talking about: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1075699#post1075699
Do you have anything of sustance to offer this discussion, or just more one liners?
Another statement to show you have a big ZERO for mindset.
We tried to explain and show you that you're wrong. Yet it's not good enough for you.
The fact that you have 0 experience doesn't mean much, but instead of paying attention and learning from guys that do, you kept spewing babel, and I have a closed mind?!!?!?
My mind comes from experience, from doing, from actually being there, and not just regurgitating ridiculous information because I heard OTHERS that did it. If I come across as close minded then so be it. It's probably because I have little patience for people like you in the industry. You don't have a hair on your ass, but are full of opinions, not even good ones, just wrong ones.
There's a lot more to this than shooting hero!!!! and you might know that if you had a clue, just a little one!!!!
And BTW, I can also drop some big names that advocate the use of the slide grab as opposed to the slide lock. Keep showing your ass!!!
Now go back and don't practice something because you might get good at it.
R.
Matter of prioritites.
Should I know how to and be able to clear a malfunction on demand ? Yes, of course.
How about a decent PAR time to get it done in effciently ? Sounds reasonable.
How about fighting to shave 10ths off ? Well......... if I have unlimited resources...... maybe.
Personally Id rather be drilling pure accuracy, running, lifting weights, training with my blade, and practicing muzzle punches and fixed blades at slide lock for MY life and what it entails.
Ive done CQ sessions where guys have stopped to reload inside arms reach of a opponent. Be careful what you practice.
Ive cant say my carry gun has had more than a hanful of malfs that where not staged in training. I mean really, if your gun fails that much............. you dont need a faster split time on clearing it, you need a different gun.
Another statement to show you have a big ZERO for mindset.
We tried to explain and show you that you're wrong. Yet it's not good enough for you.
The fact that you have 0 experience doesn't mean much, but instead of paying attention and learning from guys that do, you kept spewing babel, and I have a closed mind?!!?!?
My mind comes from experience, from doing, from actually being there, and not just regurgitating ridiculous information because I heard OTHERS that did it. If I come across as close minded then so be it. It's probably because I have little patience for people like you in the industry. You don't have a hair on your ass, but are full of opinions, not even good ones, just wrong ones.
There's a lot more to this than shooting hero!!!! and you might know that if you had a clue, just a little one!!!!
And BTW, I can also drop some big names that advocate the use of the slide grab as opposed to the slide lock. Keep showing your ass!!!
Now go back and don't practice something because you might get good at it.
R.
As emotional and loud as always Rick, you never disappoint.
I'm sure we're all super impressed with your experience, I'm sure you learned everything you need to know from it. :rolleyes:
I don't need to impress. I was trying to share something, but you know best Jim!!!!
Ok, so you were already behind cover, you had other guys putting fire on the BG's, and you believe that a few seconds more spent fixing that malfunction would have changed the outcome that day?
(legit question, not being snide...)
Who said we were behind cover? And yes I do.
If you'd like, PM me and we can discuss this further.
I've found that technical/procedural skill of clearing a malfunction has NOT been very perishable for me. Once I've learned a sequence of steps and practiced them a bit, they have become surprisingly well ingrained, even without periodic repetition. In rare cases when I had a true malfunction (this is 100% confined to 1911/quesionable mag combo), I cleared them faster than I could tell myself to pause and examine a malfunctioning pistol. Observing shooters who have had spontaneous malfunctions, I came to conclusion that the longest delay was due to failure to realize they had a malf, rather due to fumble in technique. I don't believe that failure to realize is something we can really set drills for, I think it only comes with experience of clearing truly random malfs (I've just found an application for unreliable guns). I don't practice my malfunction clearances at all, with exception of rare technique refreshers.
I'm curious as to how often and which drills you do that are related to malfunction. *I was putting my "drill" schedule together for this weekend and I started considering at what point in priority of training do I implement something like "3 little kittens" or the like. *At a recent class by a known instructor, we spent around 2 hours or so working malfunctions which implies their importance I suppose. *But to a civy, how applicable do you think they are? *
Just interested in how often you work them and to what par times you consider sufficient to be "back in the fight."*
From a perspective of being strictly a civilain, I think practicing various malfunctions and the correct steps in the resolutions is very important.....
I don't know about anyone else, but when something goes "bump" in the night, I grab my AR-15 and take it with me. I do not put on a holster, belt, carrier, pistol, LBV, pack, or anything else. Maybe I am an idiot for doing so, but this is what I do. I have a magazine in the rifle, and one in a ready mag, T-shirt, and boxers. Heaven forbid, I ever have to use it. Heaven for bid even more, I have to use it, and a non-catashrophic malfunction occurs that I could have taken care of and gotten my rifle back to working again, but I did not learn/practice/train to do so.....
As far as the times go, I guess it depends on the type of malfunction:
Failure to feed/fire; tap, rack, re-evaluate/re-aquire.... only a few seconds.....
Stovepipe/obstruction/doublefeeds; once again depends on the situation, and me going with my training(instead of my instinct to roll the rifle over to look in the ejection port), popping out the magazine if needed, retaining the magazine, clearing whatever is making my life really difficult at the moment, and getting things going again.....from a few seconds to the rest of my life....
Bolt overides and stuck casings; getting something in there to get that bolt back, or remembering to collapse the stock before grounding it....once again from a few seconds to the rest of my life....
All in all, I think knowing how to fix INTRAcarbine(inside the rifle) issues are as equal, if not more important than, INTERcarbine (outside the rifle) issues......
However this is just my opinion( a regular Joe civilain, behind the learning curve, but catching up fast )worth what is paid for it.
I don't think speed is so much the issue when it comes to proficiency. By this I mean that once a shooter is highly proficient the speeds are already very very rapid. Continual intensive training in malfunctions alone just to shave hundredths can take away training time from other valuable skills. I do think that practice to maintain a high level of proficiency should be done, but if your drilling malfunctions just to shave minute fractions and if that is taking away good training time for other skills, then one might want to re-evaluate their training goals. Having said that, IMO a shooter who uses a weapon in a critical use role should train up to a high level of proficiency and revisit the skill set to maintain that high level of proficiency. However "over training" that skill at the cost of training other skills should not happen. At some point you will start to get diminishing returns on your efforts and quite possibly other valuable skills might suffer due to lack of time spent on training those skills. On the plus side you can train malfunctions with dummy rounds outside of a live fire range, so you can have opportunities to drill them more often. Also if you have the time / resources to train many things, do it.
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