View Full Version : General AR buying question/comparison.
First off, I posted this exact question on another popular AR forum. I just wanted to get the opinions of people here as well. Both of these websites have been a treasure trove of information in my hunt so I appreciate all the input.
So yeah, I have done A LOT of searching on these forums and google in general. All in all I am just looking for a rifle that I can practice with and be general purpose for years to come. I have no real interest in buying multiple ARs, more or less looking for an end all be all type thing. Which is why I do not mind actually putting a good bit of money behind it. With that in mind, I have narrowed it down between two different ones.
The Daniel Defense M4, and the KAC SR-15 E3.
To start off, I have read extensively about both of these rifles. I fully recognize that the SR-15 is to my guess, the majorities opinion of the better rifle by far. Everything I have read of it is nothing but extremely positive. The same thing I can honestly say for the DDM4 however. Virtually every thread and post I find is nothing but singing its praise. On a funny note, I tried very hard to threads already asking this question, comparing the two, I came up with next to nothing.
My main question is this, in the longrun would the extra cost I put with the SR-15 benefit me as opposed to going with the DDM4? The SR-15 is within my budget, on some places online it looks like it can be had within the 1800-1900ish range. Going with the DDM4 would give me a lot of breathing room to spend on ammunition and accessories though. It is a bit of a tough call, and one that I am struggling with greatly. Mostly just been mulling around looking between the two and checking prices. It is also worth mentioning that I have held both of them in person and pretty much love them both equally, go figure. I have no doubt that either one would serve me incredibly well. Guess I am just looking for more seasoned shooters opinions as to if dropping the extra dough on the SR-15 would be a better investment down the road?
Thanks in advance for the opinions and help guys!
In my opinion a general purpose AR has to have a fixed front sight base. The KAC gun doesn't have that.
I'll second markm's opinion of having a fixed front sight base.
Both carbines are excellent weapons, as you probably know from your research.
That said, I would likely purchase the DDM4 as my first carbine. I'd much rather have extra money left in the budget for an Aimpoint, good sling, mags and ammo.
Either way you go, it is money well spent.
In my opinion a general purpose AR has to have a fixed front sight base. The KAC gun doesn't have that.
Mark,
I'm curious, why would you think that???
to the OP,
All being equal, I would go with the one that give you money for a good optic, ammo, and above all training.
But at the end of the day, get what makes you feel better. IMO, the better you feel about your rifle the more confident you'll be behind it.
In reading your post, I see you made mention of wanting a GP rifle. You did not specify if match accuracy was desired and I also noted that choosing the lower priced model would leave extra money for ammo and accessories. Well since you like both it would seem that the Daniel Defense would be the better choice.
I have handled and fired several DD rifles and been impressed by their quality. Another plus is there are many variations to choose from as well.
My experience with the KAC is minimal. I would say that anything that uses proprietary parts doesn't appeal to me. But I am sure some of the other members can offer more of its benefits and strengths to consider.
I just looked at the DD M4 LW model three weeks ago and really liked it. Plan on picking one up next year for the same purpose: general purpose and classes.
SkiDevil
caelumatra
11-17-11, 09:20
Personally, I'm sure the KAC is a better gun, but I would go with the DD and get an Aimpoint or more ammo
Mark,
I'm curious, why would you think that???
There are no acceptable combat iron front sights out there... period.
The fixed versions like DD and LMT are close.. but they aren't Forged Steel and taper pinned to the Bbl.
So If I'm buying ONE AR for the long haul... it's going to have a real FSB.
There are no acceptable combat iron front sights out there... period.
The fixed versions like DD and LMT are close.. but they aren't Forged Steel and taper pinned to the Bbl.
So If I'm buying ONE AR for the long haul... it's going to have a real FSB.
Interesting!!
Again out of curiosity, what's a combat acceptable iron front sight?
Grease Monkey
11-17-11, 10:15
[QUOTE=markm;1145318] Forged Steel and taper pinned to the Bbl.
QUOTE]
already answered.....
GeorgiaBoy
11-17-11, 10:19
My choice for a "all around single carbine" would be DDM4v3 with the mid length gas, DD fixed rear sight, and Aimpoint T1 or M4 in a Larue or equivalent mount.
Oh, OK!!!
Let me ask this then. Anyone have any supporting factual data on this?
The reason I ask is, because this is news to me, and I've been using Ar type systems in a professional capacity for years. Not trying to be a smart ass.
Oh, OK!!!
Let me ask this then. Anyone have any supporting factual data on this?
Not sure what you're asking... :confused: About the Forged FSB??
I only gave my opinion on what was acceptable to me. The Sight Base is a stronger part. And the taper pins are supposed to pull the base tightly against the gas port. Something a straight pin or set screw won't do.
Interesting, thanks for the response guys.
This is sorta what I assumed the response would be. The SR-15 being the better built rifle overall, but the DD M4 still filling the niche quite nicely. It just struck me as slightly humorous. The SR-15 is much more expensive and still having nothing but praise thrown at it. The DDM4 seems to have just as much praise at it though and at a much cheaper price.
I am hard pressed to find many threads or post that has negative things to say about the DDM4.
lifebreath
11-17-11, 11:39
I have an SR-15 and my buddy has three. My home defense "go to" rifle has a Bravo Company 14.5" mid-gas upper with fixed front sight and DD fixed rear sight, a Colt BCG and DD Lite rail. Here's why:
1. I want a pinned fixed front sight on a general purpose AR, along with a fixed rear sight combined with an Aimpoint. My friend has noticed the "pop-up" front sight on his KAC has a little play when up and does not give a repeatable zero. I have not noticed, but I have not used the KAC irons extensively. If I were to go with folding sights, I'd get Troy. I have them on another upper and they are very solid.
2. I want a mid-gas system because the recoil impulse is more easily managed with a standard A2 flash hider. I want an A2 flash hider on my HD gun. (My KAC has a BattleComp which is great, but does have some additional concussion.) BCM and KAC both shoot comparably.
3. The KAC is an excellent shooting weapon. However, I have experienced some gun-related failures. My friend has shot over 15,000 rounds through his primary with few problems. However, he did have some issues with another KAC. My BCM upper shoots every bit as nice as the KAC, and I've had zero problems with it. I used it for a carbine class last weekend - it functioned flawlessly and is very accurate. I have two Colts and have never had any failures with them. While I love shooting the KAC, I do not have the same confidence in its reliability as with my other guns. I've never yet read negative reports about BCM.
4. KAC uses a proprietary bolt; I'd rather have a standard bolt for my primary gun.
5. KAC uses an adjustable 2-stage trigger; I want a non-adjustable trigger in my primary weapon. I love the KAC trigger, but I have a GA SSF in my BCM for the stated reason.
I'm certainly not disparaging the KAC - I love mine. I just would not choose it as my primary or only AR for the reasons listed.
I have no experience with DD rifles. From my experience so far, I concur with many on this board that BCM makes an excellent rifle. If I were to choose one and only one AR, I would by a fixed front sight BCM or a Colt. I like mid-gas, so I'd get the BCM, since Colt doesn't make one.
My choice for a "all around single carbine" would be DDM4v3 with the mid length gas, DD fixed rear sight, and Aimpoint T1 or M4 in a Larue or equivalent mount.
+1 this is exactly on par
There are no acceptable combat iron front sights out there... period.
The fixed versions like DD and LMT are close.. but they aren't Forged Steel and taper pinned to the Bbl.
So If I'm buying ONE AR for the long haul... it's going to have a real FSB.
What are you basing this comment on, that a fixed FSB is a better all around combat system. Or to put it differently, that a rail system mounted front sight is not an acceptable all purpose combat system.
Do you have any reference on that or is it opinion?
R
Do you have any reference on that or is it opinion?
No... That's my opinion based on reading about it and trying other shooters' sight systems. I have the DD fixed rail mounted front sight on one gun... and it's good. But it's nowhere near the real, steel FSB.
I'm not citing a rule from somewhere... I just googled the SR15 e3, when I first read this thread. And the first thing I noticed was the gas block.
I'm sure it's a fine gun. But I like to have a fixed FSB on any serious use gun.
That's what I figured, it was more opinion than anything else.
Thanks
R.
What are you basing this comment on, that a fixed FSB is a better all around combat system. Or to put it differently, that a rail system mounted front sight is not an acceptable all purpose combat system.
Do you have any reference on that or is it opinion?
R
The overall ruggedness/reliability of a FSB has been covered many times basically with the consensus of durability being superior than a sight mounted onto a free float rail. It seems like your looking for specific reasons, I use a flip up front sight mounted on a FFR but I agree with Markm.
I don't think its so much opinion but fact that the flex of the rail, the tightening screw of the sight to the rail, other additional parts of an alternative sight, the mount of the rail itself(rotation and such) all lend themselves to more variables that can lead to something going wrong. Unless you go with a monolithic rail like a LMT MRP then the above is basically cut in half because the rail issues are eliminated.
I agree that If your going to have ONE rifle a FSB. Your not losing anything because you can still mount a free float rail+the drop in kind and still get an extended rail like the Daniel defense varieties.
To the OP, if your only intend to buy one AR and do all you can with it... Id go with something like the Daniel Defense only it'll be a lot easier changing the configuration out later than on the KAC. Just the wrench to remove the rail costs something like $250. For me that's a deal breaker. Unless you have a back up to propriety parts id hold off on that.
Those are good points too. The KAC strikes me as a nice luxury gun. But from a practical standpoint, the DD is more on the beaten path... part, tools, etc.
If you had done the research as you claim (not saying you didn't) then why have you discounted Colt and Bravo Company?
If it was me I would get an AR that doesn't use proprietary parts. JM2CW YMMV.
The overall ruggedness/reliability of a FSB has been covered many times basically with the consensus of durability being superior than a sight mounted onto a free float rail. It seems like your looking for specific reasons, I use a flip up front sight mounted on a FFR but I agree with Markm.
I don't think its so much opinion but fact that the flex of the rail, the tightening screw of the sight to the rail, other additional parts of an alternative sight, the mount of the rail itself(rotation and such) all lend themselves to more variables that can lead to something going wrong. Unless you go with a monolithic rail like a LMT MRP then the above is basically cut in half because the rail issues are eliminated.
I agree that If your going to have ONE rifle a FSB. Your not losing anything because you can still mount a free float rail+the drop in kind and still get an extended rail like the Daniel defense varieties.
To the OP, if your only intend to buy one AR and do all you can with it... Id go with something like the Daniel Defense only it'll be a lot easier changing the configuration out later than on the KAC. Just the wrench to remove the rail costs something like $250. For me that's a deal breaker. Unless you have a back up to propriety parts id hold off on that.
It does make sense from a technical aspect. I just don't agree with the initial statement or that a fixed FSB is more reliable, more solid ok, but reliable, that can be argued. Quality in rifle gear has jumped through the roof in the last few years and IMO quite a bit of it is combat acceptable, even if it's not hard mounted to the rifle.
With that reasoning any optic or accoutrement mounted to a rail system would be non combat acceptable.
I would be more inclined to consider something non combat acceptable if the parts were so proprietary that they could not be supported by standard or common S4 logistics.
Anyway, just curious, no big deal.
R.
Quality in rifle gear has jumped through the roof in the last few years and IMO quite a bit of it is combat acceptable, even if it's not hard mounted to the rifle.
With that reasoning any optic or accoutrement mounted to a rail system would be non combat acceptable.
R.
I 100% would NOT put faith in an optic mounted on a free float rail.
If you place you palm on the the end of the rail and your fingers on the barrel and while looking down into between the rail and barrel given enough force you'll see it "warp"(lack of a better term). Which afterwards I doubt any rail mounted optic will return to zero so beware. I don't know of anyway to manipulate the receiver in a way similar, its about as solid as your gona get.
What ever floats your boat, im not going to try to convince anyone to change their procedures. Only present reasoning behind my thoughts.
Idk what your experiences are so you may already know... but In a real life situation you and your gear are getting smashed around without you even noticing. After action your looking over yourself like "how the **** did I rip this? when did this break? WOW that thing got ****ed up..."
I would just be fearful that I banged my rail when I busted my ass on something and now not only is my optic out of place so are my irons.
Just me... I don't mean to impose on your methods and im sorry if it comes across like that.
rickp,
I agree with markm in some regards. You can't argue that a fixed FSB (assuming it is built properly as part of the barrel assembly) is more sturdy and more accurate.
Sight adjustments made are also a known factor (are all rail mounted front sights the same in this regard?) Also, in order to have a good solid front sight, you also need to ensure that you have a good soild rail and that it is mounted properly. Weapons also tend to get beat on as do rails which may cause it to move. At close range it wouldn't be an issue, at longer ranges it would will become evident.
This generally is a non-issue for quality red dots for the most part or other optics in general because they are amlmost always mounted on the upper receiver itself.
Rail mounted sights are a compromise for those who want a longer rail or don't want an FSB in front of their primary optic when shooting. I use an ACOG 4x32 on my gun and prefer not to have the FSB "shadow' in my view. I also wanted a longer rail on my SBR so I cut the FSB and covered it with a rail and added a flip front sight.
Since it is a true "back up" for me, it serves the purpose I wanted.
I also have a 12.5' upper and my plan is run a red dot optic on it. Since I don't care if the FSB is in my field of view in this scenario it's a non issue and because of its' special configuration I have the rail length that is needed.
1. I want a pinned fixed front sight on a general purpose AR, along with a fixed rear sight combined with an Aimpoint. My friend has noticed the "pop-up" front sight on his KAC has a little play when up and does not give a repeatable zero. I have not noticed, but I have not used the KAC irons extensively. If I were to go with folding sights, I'd get Troy. I have them on another upper and they are very solid.
Gee imagine that. I have been preaching this for years and I got told I was full of shit.
If you had done the research as you claim (not saying you didn't) then why have you discounted Colt and Bravo Company?
Exactly. I would never buy a DD or KAC as my first or only gun.
Exactly. I would never buy a DD or KAC as my first or only gun.
If we're talking one and only AR, then KAC is out. But the DD would be a consideration. Along with BCM and Colt.
And I agree that I'd want a FSB. With an Aimpoint I don't notice the front sight at all. When I chose my one go to set up, this was a concern. I wanted the FSB to mitigate any tiny chance a flip up or even fixed front sight on a rail would not be reliable. No matter how small that chance was. When I first tried an Aimpoint T1 on a carbine with a FSB, I did not even notice the front sight.
To the OP, for a one and only, I'd be thinking compact, lightweight, and reliable. With a FSB. All of which can be had from BCM, Colt, and DD at a reasonable price.
GeorgiaBoy
11-17-11, 16:38
Exactly. I would never buy a DD or KAC as my first or only gun.
The KAC I can understand. What I am confused about is why you are dismissing DD as a first choice. A DD is no different to both a BCM and Colt..
I have used 3 or 4 different brands through the years.Some exceedingly hard.I still like the Colts.And, I like the mil mags that I inspect before I buy.Further, folks see it's Colt and don't ask as many questions!
If you had done the research as you claim (not saying you didn't) then why have you discounted Colt and Bravo Company?
If it was me I would get an AR that doesn't use proprietary parts. JM2CW YMMV.
Never discounted them, just narrowed I suppose? I have actual shooting experience with Colt, the 6940 to be exact. I loved it and have nothing but great things to say about it.
I started out just looking between Noveske and KAC, ended up after holding an SR-15 in a shop enjoying the feel of the KAC. After that I started looking around at the mid-ranged rifles and saw a lot of praise for the DD M4 so I started giving that one some thought, especially money saved.
Wont lie, the parts issue with the SR-15 does worry me to some degree. I saw where you can buy a stripped bolt and a field repair kit online, but not being able to have as wide range of parts as other ARs is a concern.
Bravo is actually the ones I have read the least about. Not as much is talked about them on other forums I frequent, they seem to come highly praised around here though. Going to spend a couple hours tonight checking them out.
I could go with a colt for a complete gun and if you want to piece it together get a BCM and a nice quality lower. These "high end" guns are nice but the price and quality of Colt, BCM, LMT ect. your going to miss out on if you don't consider them.
If you liked the KAC, and found the proprietary features nice and useful...by all means, buy a SR15 as it's a fantastic rifle. FWIW, I've yet to hear about an E3 bolt breaking.
While I'm not the biggest fan of a SR15 upper, I absolutely love the SR15 IWS lower and won't be buying a different type of lower besides them in the foreseeable future. I'm a lefty so I'm somewhat biased by the fully ambi controls. You get a whole lot with an IWS lower.
I own a cpl. of colts and b/t a colt and a kac rifle...no questions asked, I'm taking the stoner rifle every time. This is just my opinion however I thought this thread needed a bit of a dissenting voice given how nice of a weapon the KAC SR15 IWS E3 is.
A LMT, Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske will all serve you extremely well and all are built truly top notch. I'd be happy as hell to own one of each.
Thanks again for the opinions, it is nice to hear them all. I suppose the decision is so hard because all of these companies seem to have at least one product that is top notch and a great rifle :P.
I might just watch the market and see if I can find any good deals as Black Friday/Christmas rolls around. Last Black Friday is when I picked up my XDM .40
Speaking of which, does anyone here know of any websites that participate in that sort of thing and have good sells around the holidays? Would like to know which ones to watch for. Even if it is just for marked down magazines and what not, every little bit helps.
.
I think right now a $1000 Colt is very hard to beat and I'm not a Colt fan.
Concerning Black Friday, IIRC, Two years ago, DD had a sale where if you bought a complete gun, they would give you a $250 DD Gift Card.
Just narrow your selection down and be ready to jump because the good deals won't hang around long.
But maybe it's just me...
.
warlord260
11-18-11, 05:44
Exactly. I would never buy a DD or KAC as my first or only gun.
I would also like if you could explain as to why not a DD.
This is the first i have heard of this.
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