View Full Version : M&P auto-loading woes
The slide on my M&P drops so easily when loading a fresh magazine on slide lock that auto-loading occurs more often than not. This creates a consistency issue while running reloads and so far my solution has been to go with it and let the slide do the work since it happens so often. This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that now and then the slide fails to strip a round, even occasionally on magazines which are not fully loaded. With Apex's DCAEK installed Smith won't touch it. Any idea of what part(s) if any affect the ease of the slide dropping?
Do you have the factor parts that came out when the Apex kit went in? If so, swap them back out and send it in.
You just need a new slide catch/release (as yours might have worn out).
C4
Do you have the factor parts that came out when the Apex kit went in? If so, swap them back out and send it in.
An option, although a pain in the ass option.
You just need a new slide catch/release (as yours might have worn out).
C4
Drrrrrr. That's an easy enough fix, thanks much. I don't see them on your website so I'll call Smith. Now if only Apex would come up with one that works more consistently...
I called Smith & Wesson and explained the auto-loading issue and with no questions asked they put a slide catch in the mail for me. Excellent customer service.
I called Smith & Wesson and explained the auto-loading issue and with no questions asked they put a slide catch in the mail for me. Excellent customer service.
Yep, they do stuff like that.
C4
You just need a new slide catch/release (as yours might have worn out).
C4
Panzerr,
Good to hear CS such as this.
Grant,
I may have missed a thread on this but did Smith change to type of steel used in the mag catch?
-Jax
You just need a new slide catch/release (as yours might have worn out).
C4
My slide stop broke on the port side. S&W sent me a new one, and my gun auto forwards as often as before.
This year, I sent a 9C with Apex trigger parts back to Smith for an extraction problem, and the Apex parts were a non issue. Why do you think they will be a problem?
I live the auto forward. Speeds up reloads. Seat the mags with some authority using the 45 degree bump and you will find it to be more consistent and not suffer from failing to strip a fresh round.
This year, I sent a 9C with Apex trigger parts back to Smith for an extraction problem, and the Apex parts were a non issue. Why do you think they will be a problem?
Because I sent it in for an unrelated issue with Apex parts in it and it WAS an issue for them.
Panzerr,
Not sure if you've tried it and it just doesn't work for you, but when mine does it (rarely), I've found that if I just treat it like it didn't auto-forward and just rack the slide back and let go like I normally do in a normal slide-lock reload, then the round "always" seats. (I hate using the word "always", but it has worked so far for me). I already have it engrained in me to seat a mag and immediately grab for the slide (vs. using the slide catch button), so it really doesn't bother me much if it auto-forwards and the round does get hung up or doesn't feed at all...ymmv
Panzerr,
Not sure if you've tried it and it just doesn't work for you, but when mine does it (rarely), I've found that if I just treat it like it didn't auto-forward and just rack the slide back and let go like I normally do in a normal slide-lock reload, then the round "always" seats. (I hate using the word "always", but it has worked so far for me). I already have it engrained in me to seat a mag and immediately grab for the slide (vs. using the slide catch button), so it really doesn't bother me much if it auto-forwards and the round does get hung up or doesn't feed at all...ymmv
Once I get the slide catch replaced hopefully my M&P won't auto-load so readily and then I'll roll with this technique. I ruled it out in the past as I didn't want to drop live rounds nearly every time I conducted a reload!
Mine does it also depending upon how I insert another magazine. If you insert the mag at an angle it will always auto-forward. If I make sure to insert it as straight as possible it does not. LAV mentioned this in class for all of us that were experienceing this.
Mine does it also depending upon how I insert another magazine. If you insert the mag at an angle it will always auto-forward. If I make sure to insert it as straight as possible it does not. LAV mentioned this in class for all of us that were experienceing this.
Interesting. I suppose if you insert the mag at an angle it will require more force to seat it and thus you will be more likely to induce an auto-load.
Once I get the slide catch replaced hopefully my M&P won't auto-load so readily and then I'll roll with this technique. I ruled it out in the past as I didn't want to drop live rounds nearly every time I conducted a reload!
Yeah I agree...now that I think about it though, I haven't had the problem with the round not stripping, and when it actually does auto-forward and successfully seats the round in the chamber, I don't rack the slide. If the round gets hung up on the feedramp, then I'll rack it. But then again, mine doesn't do it much.
I'm assuming you're using ball ammo right? I've heard that hollow points catch the feedramp moreso...
I live the auto forward. Speeds up reloads. Seat the mags with some authority using the 45 degree bump and you will find it to be more consistent and not suffer from failing to strip a fresh round.
Try it with hollowpoints. Yeh it works great with ball,but with a HP? No way, don't trust it. When I first got the M&P I thought it was a cool feature until I discovered this. Now I am training not to trip the slide release.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=90030
-Jax
I live the auto forward. Speeds up reloads. Seat the mags with some authority using the 45 degree bump and you will find it to be more consistent and not suffer from failing to strip a fresh round.
For the record, mag insertion is a FINESSE exercise.
So auto-forwarding your pistol (on purpose) is really poor weapons handling and or technique.
C4
Interesting. I suppose if you insert the mag at an angle it will require more force to seat it and thus you will be more likely to induce an auto-load.
It's not an amount of force issue, it's direction of force.
If you drive it in at an angle, you are imparting SOME forward energy...think sine, cosine stuff from high school.
The slide has substantialy more mass than the frame, so it has more inertia (IE: objects at rest tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force).
So, when you drive the gun forward (in part) by that sudden bump of the mag being seated, you accelerate the frame forward faster than the slide... the slide stays at rest longer than the frame does (more inertia). When these move in relation to each other, you relax the tension of the slide pressing into the slide release for a moment and that's all that's needed for the slide stop to spring back down out of the way.... hence, auto-forward.
I can't think of any way they can fix this issue without changing a LOT about the gun.
My slide stop broke on the port side. S&W sent me a new one, and my gun auto forwards as often as before.
You need to determine if the slide catch is not engaging the slide far enough or if the surfaces are just slick. If it is getting good engagement in the slide notch and auto-forwarding then get some rough sandpaper and roughen up the surfaces. If it's not engaging far enough it could be a number of issues including mag springs or followers. S&W has gone through umpteen generations of mag followers and you might want to try the new ones.
For the record, mag insertion is a FINESSE exercise.
So auto-forwarding your pistol (on purpose) is really poor weapons handling and or technique.
C4
Additionally....wahoo, while one may do what works for them and their reasons to doing any given thing (if it's working for you, stellar. My M&P45 does the same thing, and I take advantage of it without being foolish enough to expect it to happen...), advising somebody else that doing x '"will" result in y on a gun other than yours, given that it's a circumstance and NOT a designed-in aspect, is both fuzzy-headed thinking and irresponsible, since you have no way in hell to categorically define what it will or will not do, except from your own narrow frame of reference.
"Always works for me" does NOT apply, because it's not your gun he's talking about and because the question was NOT "how do I get this auto-forwarding thing to work?"
It was identified as creating a consistency issue, so the question is "how do I get this auto-forwarding thing to stop?" Answering the question we want to answer instead of the question asked isn't automatically helping out.
Technically, if auto-forwarding occurs, it's either going to chamber a round....or not. Walking on rice paper without leaving marks and playing flutes while in the process of reloading won't change the nature of the auto-forward, and magically take it from not chambering to chambering successfully.
I can't get my M&P9 to auto-forward AT ALL, but I'm not using that as a basis to tell panzerr that he's full of crap and that what he's describing isn't happening. The reverse applies.
It's not an amount of force issue, it's direction of force.
If you drive it in at an angle, you are imparting SOME forward energy...think sine, cosine stuff from high school.
The slide has substantialy more mass than the frame, so it has more inertia (IE: objects at rest tend to stay at rest unless acted upon by an outside force).
So, when you drive the gun forward (in part) by that sudden bump of the mag being seated, you accelerate the frame forward faster than the slide... the slide stays at rest longer than the frame does (more inertia). When these move in relation to each other, you relax the tension of the slide pressing into the slide release for a moment and that's all that's needed for the slide stop to spring back down out of the way.... hence, auto-forward.
I can't think of any way they can fix this issue without changing a LOT about the gun.
I fixed the issue with a modified slide catch I built. We had TWO contact points with the notch in the slide.
C4
I fixed the issue with a modified slide catch I built. We had TWO contact points with the notch in the slide.
C4
I was trying to think of a way to increase the friction between the two parts, but figured the frame bounce would over-ride any increase friction.
I'd be curious to see how you did it, if you can share it. If you have figured out a way to get these guns to stop auto-forwarding (across the board, and not just on one gun) then you've run into a gold mine!
I've received more than a few phone calls from Dept's who switched to M&P's and called up with a "WTF!?" after their first time out qualifying with them.
I was trying to think of a way to increase the friction between the two parts, but figured the frame bounce would over-ride any increase friction.
I'd be curious to see how you did it, if you can share it. If you have figured out a way to get these guns to stop auto-forwarding (across the board, and not just on one gun) then you've run into a gold mine!
I've received more than a few phone calls from Dept's who switched to M&P's and called up with a "WTF!?" after their first time out qualifying with them.
I made one, tested it on a pistol that would auto-forward easily. I then handed it to S&W at SHOT SHOW.
I see tons of these pistols at the local classes we teach. IMHO, the majority of auto-forwarding's occur from an incorrect mag insertion.
C4
I made one, tested it on a pistol that would auto-forward easily. I then handed it to S&W at SHOT SHOW.
I see tons of these pistols at the local classes we teach. IMHO, the majority of auto-forwarding's occur from an incorrect mag insertion.
C4
Yeah, but you can't make a pistol for LEO's and the public at large that is picky about taking magazines a certain way. If it has never caused an issue on their Glocks, Beretta's, Sig's, etc...then it is unacceptable from the consumers standpoint to put up with it.
To me, it sounds like you have a new part for Apex to make, if you've figured out how to fix this issue.
I922sParkCir
11-23-11, 16:44
For the record, mag insertion is a FINESSE exercise.
So auto-forwarding your pistol (on purpose) is really poor weapons handling and or technique.
C4
I would like to contest this. During IDPA I index and insert my magazines in such a way where it consistently auto-forwards. My M&P is very susceptible to auto-forwarding, and I take advantage of it. The one time where it hasn't auto-forwarded, I pulled back on the slide without hesitation. I see not downside to taking advantage of auto-indexing, and only positives.
I am fully aware that I don't know everything, and there is a decent likelihood that you are correct, but I just cant see the consequence in auto-forwarding.
For the record, mag insertion is a FINESSE exercise.
So auto-forwarding your pistol (on purpose) is really poor weapons handling and or technique.
C4
I never said one needed to go caveman on the their reload. I strive to be deliberate in all of my actions and in doing so I know that every M&P or Beretta that "I" have shot has auto forwarded when a 45 degree bump is used....using FMJ, flat nose, and JHP.
Its been pointed out already but it happens as more the result if the angle rather than the force.
Its loading at that same angle which caused issues with early M&P mag baseplates sliding off on reload. The latest design fixed that issue and makes fir speedy reloads for those who know how to use it consistently.
Works for me, but like anything else folks need to do what works for them.
I would like to contest this. During IDPA I index and insert my magazines in such a way where it consistently auto-forwards. My M&P is very susceptible to auto-forwarding, and I take advantage of it. The one time where it hasn't auto-forwarded, I pulled back on the slide without hesitation. I see not downside to taking advantage of auto-indexing, and only positives.
I am fully aware that I don't know everything, and there is a decent likelihood that you are correct, but I just cant see the consequence in auto-forwarding.
No professional instructor teaches this or recommends it (clue).
C4
QuickStrike
11-23-11, 22:55
I test for this when I buy polymer pistols, usually with a snap cap. If a reasopnably hard palm strike doesn't make it auto-forward I'm happy.
Although I would have to do it pretty hard since I'm testing without the added weight/momentum of a fully loaded mag.
No professional instructor teaches this or recommends it (clue).
C4
I seem to remember Chris and Travis covering this issue in the Dynamic Handgun video. I don't recall them endorsing it, but they seemed to say that it could provide an advantage for some shooters provided that they can do it 95% of reloads. I plan to rewatch them this month and will correct this post if my memory has failed me.
Personally, I'm a power stroke guy who can't get any of my M&Ps to auto forward.
I922sParkCir
11-24-11, 10:08
No professional instructor teaches this or recommends it (clue).
C4
No offense, but that really is poor logic. Two things, it's a logical fallacy (argument from authority), and I doubt you know all of the professional opinions on the subject.
I respect your advice on this forum because I have not seen you post anything that wasn't helpful, and because you provide a terrific store featuring only top shelf good equipment. That being said, if I don't see the benefit in changing something, I only see negative consequences, and I have yet to find, or be given a reasonable example to get me to change, then I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.
I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn. If you say that auto-forwarding is really poor weapons handling then I believe you have a good reason; I would just like to know what that reason is.
Thank you.
Panzerr,
Did you get the slide release in from Smith yet and if so any changes?
-Jax
spamsammich
11-24-11, 12:26
To quote the OP:
This creates a consistency issue while running reloads and so far my solution has been to go with it and let the slide do the work since it happens so often. This would be fine if it weren't for the fact that now and then the slide fails to strip a round, even occasionally on magazines which are not fully loaded.
Seems like a good enough reason to avoid autoloading for me. I cannot get my gun to consistently autoload so for me it is a no no. Somebody in another thread was quoting Bill Rogers as a proponent of this technique.
I got curious about what Rogers really had to say about "teaching" autoforwarding on reloads. A Panteao video has him regarding this condition as a type of malfunction that requires a press check should it happen. I don't know what that other cat was smoking but I didn't get the impression that Bill actually taught this as a proper technique. He actually covers it during the malfunction portion of the video.
No offense, but that really is poor logic. Two things, it's a logical fallacy (argument from authority), and I doubt you know all of the professional opinions on the subject.
I respect you advice on this forum because I have not seen you post anything that wasn't helpful, and because you provide a terrific store featuring only top shelf good equipment. That being said, if I don't see the benefit in changing something, I only see negative consequences, and I have yet to find, or be given a reasonable example to get me to change, then I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing.
I'm not here to argue, I'm here to learn. If you say that auto-forwarding is really poor weapons handling then I believe you have a good reason; I would just like to know what that reason is.
Thank you.
To quote the OP:
Seems like a good enough reason to avoid autoloading for me. I cannot get my gun to consistently autoload so for me it is a no no. Somebody in another thread was quoting Bill Rogers as a proponent of this technique.
I got curious about what Rogers really had to say about "teaching" autoforwarding on reloads. A Panteao video has him regarding this condition as a type of malfunction that requires a press check should it happen. I don't know what that other cat was smoking but I didn't get the impression that Bill actually taught this as a proper technique. He actually covers it during the malfunction portion of the video.
If you are referring to me as that cat, what Bill Rogers said is that some pistols auto forward, regularly or under certain circumstances, and you need to know whether your pistol does so, and reliably. He wasn't advocating it, but rather that you need to operate YOUR equipment, and know how YOUR equipment works.
To make sure we are all on the same page, auto forwarding is the slide going forward when firmly inserting the magazine and chambering a cartridge -- not the slide going forward without a round chambered when you bump the magazine well with your hand.
For example, when firmly inserting a magazine, every P30 I have auto forwards. My Glock pistols do not. Most of my M&P pistols auto forward, but not all of them. I don't care whether you use the support thumb to operate the slide stop, pre-load the slide stop with your dominant thumb, operate the slide stop with your dominant thumb, use the overhand or sling shot method, or best yet, change magazines before running dry --- just know what you need to to get the pistol shooting again. And, know whether the pistol auto forwarding is common with YOUR pistol or likely the sign of a problem which will require you to immediately run the slide and chamber a cartridge, hopefully no slower than working the slide by the sling shot or overhand method anyway. Alternatively, you can decide that auto forwarding is a terrible thing, and if it were to happen in real life, you can shoot off a quick email to this forum for advice, look at the slide with a puzzled expression, or drop your pistol. :)
And, no, I don't smoke anything, and yes, I have a red Rogers pin.
For the record, mag insertion is a FINESSE exercise.
So auto-forwarding your pistol (on purpose) is really poor weapons handling and or technique.
C4
I had been training myself to utilize auto-forwarding as part of my reload from slide lock. This was working well for me until I was shooting a drill and during a reload the slide did not auto-forward. I stood there looking at the pistol for what felt like 30 seconds before I got my brain moving and dealt with it.
On a single occasion the slide dropped after inserting a loaded mag and no round was chambered. That was enough to convince that relying on this phenomenon was dangerous.
I thought the point was to seat the magazine with purpose. But now I need to spend a little more time trying to figure out if the angle I am inserting from has any bearing on this.
If there was an after-market part offered that eliminated auto-forwarding, I'd happily go that route.
No offense, but that really is poor logic. Two things, it's a logical fallacy (argument from authority), and I doubt you know all of the professional opinions on the subject.
No, not really. After talking to or reading the opinions of 5 of the best firearms instructors in the Country about this subject, it is pretty easy to come to the assumption that it is a poor idea.
On top of that, my PERSONAL opinion is that it is a mistake for MANY reasons.
I would suggest getting some professional training from instructors like Vickers, Hackathorn, Defoor, Falla, etc.
C4
I had been training myself to utilize auto-forwarding as part of my reload from slide lock. This was working well for me until I was shooting a drill and during a reload the slide did not auto-forward. I stood there looking at the pistol for what felt like 30 seconds before I got my brain moving and dealt with it.
On a single occasion the slide dropped after inserting a loaded mag and no round was chambered. That was enough to convince that relying on this phenomenon was dangerous.
I thought the point was to seat the magazine with purpose. But now I need to spend a little more time trying to figure out if the angle I am inserting from has any bearing on this. If there was an after-market part offered that eliminated auto-forwarding, I'd happily go that route.
Yes, its all about the angle. Some refer to it as the 45 Degree Bump
m4shooter1
12-01-11, 10:15
The 45 degree bump or inertia drop or whatever you prefer to call it is a great thing FOR ME (and most M&P competitors that I am aware of). It is without question the fastest way to reload from slide lock.
Take a look at Julie Golob's IDPA videos online -- every reload I have seen her do from slide lock is a 45 degree bump. She is an official S&W M&P team member -- that is why I use her as one example of innumerable M&P competitors.
Additionally, a 45 degree bump is absolutely not a "Finesse" movement. I know that to be a fact because I have no finesse when on the clock. A tactical reload (or reload with retention) takes much more finesse and coordination that simply dumping a mag and slamming in another one. Or how about a night reload while holding a handheld light. That takes more finesse.
But if you don't like it, don't do it. What I can't understand is why people get so worked up about it and start throwing out this professional trainer and that one (almost none who actually use the M&P as their primary handgun) as anecdotal evidence of people who say "don't do it" to justify their argument.
Well, why not? It's fast as heck. It's reliable -- at least for most competitors. If it were "poor technique", professional competitors would not do it. I have never seen a malfunction induced by this type of reload. The worst that I have seen happen is that every now and then the slide will fail to go forward. Well, in that rare instance, all you do is rack the slide good old standard fashion. How is that too difficult for people? If that is too difficult, I would love to see such person handle a double feed.
In any case, if guns such as the M&P series, which do auto-forward, are too much to handle, I would probably avoid them altogether. Because every now and then it will auto-forward, whether you intend for it to do so or not, in which case you will either rack the slide anyways and dump a good round or you will just be too flabbergasted to proceed.
The 45 degree bump or inertia drop or whatever you prefer to call it is a great thing FOR ME (and most M&P competitors that I am aware of). It is without question the fastest way to reload from slide lock.
Great info and much to think about but there is one thing I would like to know: does your M&P chamber a round every time you allow it to auto-load?
Great info and much to think about but there is one thing I would like to know: does your M&P chamber a round every time you allow it to auto-load?
No and as many will tell you, they have gotten it to do it for long periods of time and then something changes (ammo, mags, etc) and it doesn't. This is why you NEVER trust it and or do it on purpose.
C4
No and as many will tell you, they have gotten to do it for long periods of time and then something changes (ammo, mags, etc) and it doesn't. This is why you NEVER trust it and or do it on purpose.
This has been my experience as well. I had no troubles until recently at a CFS course where I had four failures to chamber a round in one day (out of a 650 round count). That was enough to make me reconsider my technique.
The 45 degree bump or inertia drop or whatever you prefer to call it is a great thing FOR ME (and most M&P competitors that I am aware of). It is without question the fastest way to reload from slide lock.
Take a look at Julie Golob's IDPA videos online -- every reload I have seen her do from slide lock is a 45 degree bump. She is an official S&W M&P team member -- that is why I use her as one example of innumerable M&P competitors.
Additionally, a 45 degree bump is absolutely not a "Finesse" movement. I know that to be a fact because I have no finesse when on the clock. A tactical reload (or reload with retention) takes much more finesse and coordination that simply dumping a mag and slamming in another one. Or how about a night reload while holding a handheld light. That takes more finesse.
But if you don't like it, don't do it. What I can't understand is why people get so worked up about it and start throwing out this professional trainer and that one (almost none who actually use the M&P as their primary handgun) as anecdotal evidence of people who say "don't do it" to justify their argument.
Well, why not? It's fast as heck. It's reliable -- at least for most competitors. If it were "poor technique", professional competitors would not do it. I have never seen a malfunction induced by this type of reload. The worst that I have seen happen is that every now and then the slide will fail to go forward. Well, in that rare instance, all you do is rack the slide good old standard fashion. How is that too difficult for people? If that is too difficult, I would love to see such person handle a double feed.
In any case, if guns such as the M&P series, which do auto-forward, are too much to handle, I would probably avoid them altogether. Because every now and then it will auto-forward, whether you intend for it to do so or not, in which case you will either rack the slide anyways and dump a good round or you will just be too flabbergasted to proceed.
You have to separate "fantasy land" from the real world. What you do in "Gun Games" is fine, but don't bring that stupidity into Mil/LE/CCW where someone’s life is on the line.
Many guns will auto forward. Some do it easier than others. So when some of the worlds BEST Defensive Firearms Instructors advise you to NOT do it, it has NOTHING to do with whether they use that gun every day, once a month or once a year!
Just so you know, auto-forwarding is something that S&W is trying to fix (meaning remove). This is commonly referred to as a "CLUE!" S&W has LOST LE contracts because of this problem.
C4
m4shooter1
12-01-11, 10:46
You have to separate "fantasy land" from the real world. What you do in "Gun Games" is fine, but don't bring that stupidity into Mil/LE/CCW where someone’s life is on the line.
Many guns will auto forward. Some do it easier than others. So when some of the worlds BEST Defensive Firearms Instructors advise you to NOT do it, it has NOTHING to do with whether they use that gun every day, once a month or once a year!
Just so you know, auto-forwarding is something that S&W is trying to fix (meaning remove). This is commonly referred to as a "CLUE!" S&W has LOST LE contracts because of this problem.
C4
The "fantasy land" quip re: competition shooters is not new. But the simple fact is that serious competitors have a higher standard weekly round count than just about anyone. Also, regarding "fantasy land", LAV was a founder of IDPA -- and you have already used him as an authoritative source.
The "fantasy land" quip re: competition shooters is not new. But the simple fact is that serious competitors have a higher standard weekly round count than just about anyone. Also, regarding "fantasy land", LAV was a founder of IDPA -- and you have already used him as an authoritative source.
Having a high round count while standing in the door way or in the middle of a room in a shoot house is not something that will do you any good when having to deal with a bad guy in your home (FYI).
While IDPA is probably the best of the gun games, at the end of the day it is still a gun game. This is why Vickers and Hackathorn have little to nothing to do with it any more (clue again).
C4
bluejackets92fs
12-01-11, 11:37
Drrrrrr. That's an easy enough fix, thanks much. I don't see them on your website so I'll call Smith. Now if only Apex would come up with one that works more consistently...
He has the right idea for starters. I am an M&P Armorer and that is most commonly the issue. My full size 9mm did this right out of the box. Just needed to tension it up.
Hey, as seen from the standpoint of somebody largely only concerned with making the most of a scoring matrix, it's a fine practice....but only based on the presumption that a certain set of preconditions are met.
What I can't understand is why people get so worked up about it ... It's reliable -- at least for most competitors. If it were "poor technique", professional competitors would not do it. I have never seen a malfunction induced by this type of reload.
Because some gamer-centric purist comes along and starts tossing out gamer-centric, unsupportable Silly-Straw chromosome statements. It's maddening, and that frustration gets expressed.
First emphasis -- Unsupportable, not the least of which is demonstrated by the OP of this thread, who specifically stated, as have others that gripe about the phenominon, that it creates malfunctions.
Food for thought -- is there a sponsored gamer that is somehow NOT going to be able to say "hey, this thing doesn't auto-forward the way I know is going to give me my best possible chance of winning, gimmie another one!"? I submit that if a competitor that wanted to use that technique had a gun that chokes in the process, they'd get another gun or simply not use that technique.
Opposite side of the gun-user coin -- the cat who can only afford one gun, or who is issued one gun, and has no way in hell of being able to reach into a golf-bag full of them for one that absolutely auto-forwards reliably (i.e., not that it merely does so, but that it does so AND always feeds correctly) for the designed intent of the device, which is to give one their best posible chance of surviving a violent encounter. They may be STUCK with this thing, and have to hope that it auto-forwards without choking, even though something may alter upon the next scheduled maintenance, or because Venus was in ascension that day. I ain't Kreskin, am completely willing to admit it, and I get sorely pissed off at folks that think they are Kreskin, and presume to speak from a position of authority on the basis of what they read in their crystal ball/scrying bowl.
Second emphsis-- supportable, as it is written ONLY, i.e., you haven't seen it happen. I have no doubt that that's factual.....and that's as far as it goes, in terms of what it means. Silly to use in an attempt to establish authority in the face of those who have seen it. You having not SEEN a pistol malfunction under auto-forward in no way invalidates the verifiable reports that come from those who HAVE SEEN or HAVE EXPERIENCED it.
Common, gigantic fallacy, and the primary reason why folks get wrapped around the axle over this. It's not over the thing itself, it's over the narrow-focus doofs that keep insisting that it's the best possible practice, not recognizing the potential liabilities, and insisting that those that have qualms over the phenomenon are somehow unhinged and/or are lying about it for the mere fact that the aforementioned doof has never SEEN it go wrong.
What you haven't SEEN merely points to the kind of limited exposure that are the source of such statements, which exist fine in a vacuum, like a lump of lead would. Toss somethig comprehensive and living (like complete information and broad personal experience) in that same vacuum...it dies.
No, I have no beef with any of the games/gamers -- to many of them are friends, and those bastards'd SHOOT me...:eek:. To paraphrase another: shooting rapid, accurate shots is a helluva tactic. However, the metrics, motivations, practices and outlook of such folks differ from those of facets, and are merely part of the pie, not the entire dessert counter.
It would be interesting to determine the percentage of shooters using each of the following methods: support thumb on slide stop, dominant thumb activating the slide stop, dominant thumb pre-loading the slide stop, auto forwarding, sling shot and overhand. Then, the relative time to reload using each of these methods, and finally, the percentage of stoppages with each method.
No and as many will tell you, they have gotten it to do it for long periods of time and then something changes (ammo, mags, etc) and it doesn't. This is why you NEVER trust it and or do it on purpose.
C4
Pretty much this. Does it if I hit it on an angle or more on t rear of the mag, but I would never trust it doing it reliably.
I am waiting for my M&P 9 to come back from Smith and Wesson.
Had been shooting with a friend's M&P 9 for the better part of 2 years and the ONLY complaint I had with it was that the trigger had a very indistinct reset. Never once did his M&P 9 auto load on me; never saw him experience it either. Really liking his gun and wanting a 9mm of my own (45 ammo is expensive!), it was a no brainer for me...
Trigger complaints aside.....
First time out at the range and it was both "auto loading" and failing to lock open on empty mags. It also failed to feed rounds even in the middle of a mag and jammed. Had so much brass ejected back into my face that I looked like a dalmatian by the end of my range session.
I was advised to send it back into Smith and Wesson; the guys at my local gun store agreed wholeheartedly. So, off it went.
Here's hoping that it performs as fantastically as I know it should and can do when I get back.
My problem with the auto-forwarding phenomenon is one of muscle memory. Many of us carry multiple types of weapons based on the circumstances (i.e. M9 while deployed vs G19 for civilian CCW), and it is highly unlikely that each of these weapons will behave the same with this technique. For me, it is simply not practicle or safe to develop separate reloading methods for my issued M9 which can be made to auto forward, and my G19 that does not. I need a "default" method of reloading that works on every weapon system that I use so that my reload is always instinctive under stress.
Keeping with the theme of muscle memory, use of this technique becomes problematic when a weapon is serviced or replaced and no longer reliably auto-forwards. For example, I've been issued several different M9's over the years. Some could be made to auto-forward , while others would not. I could not imagine having to relearn my reloads based on the variability within a particular model of pistol.
Jason Falla
12-01-11, 23:31
I have been shooting Glocks for quite a while now and I reckon I'm pretty good at reloading especially under stress. I never have an 'auto-forwarding' issue.
Every time I teach a class that has an M&P in it this question comes up 100% of the time. "How can I stop the gun from 'auto-forwarding"?
The answer is buy a different gun!
There is no technical answer to this question, the angle of the mag, the speed, the pressure, the shooter, it's all ridiculous, the gun has serious problems and no-one will admit it!
When I shoot the students M&P and reload it like I reload my Glock, guess what, it auto-forwards! So am I reloading my Glock the wrong way, or does the M&P just have a serious problem that can't be fixed?
My problem with the auto-forwarding phenomenon is one of muscle memory. Many of us carry multiple types of weapons based on the circumstances (i.e. M9 while deployed vs G19 for civilian CCW), and it is highly unlikely that each of these weapons will behave the same with this technique. For me, it is simply not practicle or safe to develop separate reloading methods for my issued M9 which can be made to auto forward, and my G19 that does not. I need a "default" method of reloading that works on every weapon system that I use so that my reload is always instinctive under stress.
Keeping with the theme of muscle memory, use of this technique becomes problematic when a weapon is serviced or replaced and no longer reliably auto-forwards. For example, I've been issued several different M9's over the years. Some could be made to auto-forward , while others would not. I could not imagine having to relearn my reloads based on the variability within a particular model of pistol.
Even if it auto forwards my reaction hand is already reaching for the slide because that's what I normally do. I just dont rack the slide, it's not that big of a deal.
Even if it auto forwards my reaction hand is already reaching for the slide because that's what I normally do. I just dont rack the slide, it's not that big of a deal.
Interesting. Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of autoforwarding? If your support hand is already reaching for the slide, why not use it to power stroke (arguably the most reliable method to chamber a round). I thought the whole purpose of auto-forwarding was so that your support hand can immediatly return to the grip after seating the magazine.
I've seen new shooters "flinch" their support hand toward the slind when trying to master this phenomenon. They really did not save any time or effeciency of motion on their reloads until they broke themselves of this habit.
I have been shooting Glocks for quite a while now and I reckon I'm pretty good at reloading especially under stress. s the M&P just have a serious problem that can't be fixed?
Jason, it would be helpful to hear your preferred technique for a slide lock reload, and your thoughts on alternative methods. For example, Gunsite teaches the overhand method, the preferred Rogers method is the sling shot method, Some pre-load the slide stop with his dominant thumb, others use the slide stop with their dominant thumb after seating the magazine, and I have used the support thumb assuming I have a proper slide stop and the pistol doesn't auto forward. And, one hand, there are a number of different techniques from using the slide stop, to racking the slide on your belt or even in the crook of your knees. In particular, I am interested on your thoughts of the reliability of various methods and relative speed to get the pistol back shooting again.
Gutshot John
12-02-11, 09:08
My M&Ps rarely auto-forward but it does happen (maybe a dozen times out of 12-15K rounds spread over two guns).
Since my loading technique on slide-lock involves an overhand rack anyways, irrespective of whether or not an autoforward occurs, I simply rack the slide after a load if it occurs.
Worst case scenario is I lose a round, but I am as confident as can be that the gun is gtg.
It doesn't have to be a big deal but relying on an auto-forward, or viewing it as desirable, is epically stupid.
Not to speak for him, but Mr. Falla touches on this in post #112 and 115 of this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=87078&page=6
We're getting away from the simple mechanical aspect of this phenomenon, which is an understandable sort of drift since how one trains is kinda built around a weapon's configuration and what it does.
If it's a help to anybody, we've danced this specific dance before in the Training and Tactics subforum.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=77316&page=3
I have been shooting Glocks for quite a while now and I reckon I'm pretty good at reloading especially under stress. I never have an 'auto-forwarding' issue.
Every time I teach a class that has an M&P in it this question comes up 100% of the time. "How can I stop the gun from 'auto-forwarding"?
The answer is buy a different gun!
There is no technical answer to this question, the angle of the mag, the speed, the pressure, the shooter, it's all ridiculous, the gun has serious problems and no-one will admit it!
When I shoot the students M&P and reload it like I reload my Glock, guess what, it auto-forwards! So am I reloading my Glock the wrong way, or does the M&P just have a serious problem that can't be fixed?
No, you are right. The auto forwarding IS a problem that needs resolved.
The funny thing is that when it does get fixed, thousands of people will complain. :rolleyes:
C4
I don't think that any of us will tell Jason to relearn his reloads, but I've not had such an extensive problem with the M&P. I have 6 M&Ps (mostly full size 9s in the same configuration) for range, carry, dry fire training, and reserve. I can't get any of these to auto-forward although I've seen colleague's M&Ps do it. In fact, I've had more problems with the M9s that I've been issued over the years but only if I insert the mag at an angle. This is especially pronounced if the M9 has some wear.
Jason Falla
12-02-11, 15:00
Yes, we have covered this terrain before! But, my doctrine is always developing and never rigid if it relates to improving proficiency or efficiency.
I teach every method of sending the slide home. None of them are wrong. They all work, some faster than others, some more reliably than others.
You must remember as a learner that you have to have a redundant approach to your skill sets. As per military planning, you don't have just one Course Of Action, you develop 3 and pick the best one.
You also need to have contingency plans in case something goes wrong during the execution of the master plan.
Like shooting, if the gun malfunctions you have a rehearsed set of drills to overcome the problem. If you only train on one of these techniques because that's the way your favorite instructor does it then I think you're wrong.
Think of your methods of sending the slide home as a series of malfunction drills. What happens if your support hand is injured during a combatives encounter and you lose the tensile strength in your thumb? Can you simply sling-shot without the use of your thumb?
If your gun auto-forwards, what I would do is rock on knowing that there is a good chance that a round was loaded and attempt to fire (preferably from cover). If the engagement was over or a lull occurred, I would conduct a chamber check to see what hell just happened!
Always keep an open mind, always try to see how you can incorporate a technique into your game. It may not always be the most obvious way.
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