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C4IGrant
11-27-07, 19:00
We are looking at hosting Rob Haught for a shotgun class in 2008 and I need a shotgun. My first choice is the M4 and have access to Remy Police shotguns.

I have also looked at Scattergun tech. shotguns and may go that route as well. Anyone own these shotguns?

Ammo. I have access to Hornady LE TAP and Winchester Ranger shotgun ammo. Anyone have experience with this ammo?




C4

Dport
11-27-07, 19:17
If you're looking at the M4 may I suggest the FN autoloader?

I have the M4 and it's a nice gun, but you have to put up with 922r. There is no one making enough parts as of yet to make the M4 into what I want it to be.

I've actually been thinking of selling my M4 because of this headache. I even got a US made full length magazine tube, so I'm down the path. Even so, it seems like too much of a headache.

Don G.
11-27-07, 19:18
Content deleted.

Robb Jensen
11-27-07, 19:20
I've only shot a few boxes of Hornady TAP but the Winchester Ranger runs just fine. A Benelli M4 would be awesome as would a FN SLP/Winchester SX2. A Benelli M2 (rifle type stock w/ComforTech would be good too).

C4IGrant
11-27-07, 20:42
If you're looking at the M4 may I suggest the FN autoloader?

I have the M4 and it's a nice gun, but you have to put up with 922r. There is no one making enough parts as of yet to make the M4 into what I want it to be.

I've actually been thinking of selling my M4 because of this headache. I even got a US made full length magazine tube, so I'm down the path. Even so, it seems like too much of a headache.

Interesting about the 922r issue. I did read on the Benelli forum that there is someone making all the missing parts in the US.


C4

Dport
11-27-07, 20:51
Interesting about the 922r issue. I did read on the Benelli forum that there is someone making all the missing parts in the US.


C4

They've been talking about making parts for a year. Only a couple of people seem to have come through with full length mag tubes.

As it stands if the person making the fire control parts comes through, SOCOMguy made some full length magazine tubes, Surefire makes a nice forearm, and a follower is pretty easy to pick up, so that gets you to less than 10 components.

I figure I'm looking at another $500 in parts, some of the parts I have to buy when they are available or risk missing the boat, just to get to the point where I can convert a gun I spent ~$1500 on.

To say I'm frustrated, is an understatement.

C4IGrant
11-27-07, 20:54
They've been talking about making parts for a year. Only a couple of people seem to have come through with full length mag tubes.

As it stands if the person making the fire control parts comes through, SOCOMguy made some full length magazine tubes, Surefire makes a nice forearm, and a follower is pretty easy to pick up, so that gets you to less than 10 components.

I figure I'm looking at another $500 in parts, some of the parts I have to buy when they are available or risk missing the boat, just to get to the point where I can convert a gun I spent ~$1500 on.

To say I'm frustrated, is an understatement.


Understand. My Trijicon/SF rep is also big with Benelli so I am hoping to pick an M4 up at around his cost. If I can, then I will go that route for sure. If not, I might just pick up an Remy Police with a 14" barrel.


C4

Henchman
11-27-07, 22:05
Grant:

The Reminton 870 is the way to go period! If you go with the Police get the bead sight, add ghost rings, side saddle, short length of pull stock, and a Sure Fire forend. One issue with stock Reminton rifle sights is that only 2 or 3 threads project into the barrel to hold the sight on (Info from Rob himself) and they loosen or shear. If you go the custom gun route have Hans Vang build one for you. Scatter Gun Tech is just a dressed up Express model. Rob can do some really sick stuff with an 870 and I watched him empty one faster than a a guy could empty a Benilli. Federal LE 132 is the way to go for ammo but you will shoot mostly bird shot in the class and just a few slugs and buck. If you host the class please send me the sign up info.

Dport
11-27-07, 22:08
Understand. My Trijicon/SF rep is also big with Benelli so I would hoping to pick an M4 up at around his cost. If I can, then I will go that route for sure. If not, I might just pick up an Remy Police with a 14" barrel.


C4

Ironically, if you SBS the Benelli, you don't have to worry about the 922r BS.

Of course, being in the Navy, it's kinda tough predicting where you'll be stationed next and if it will be allowed.

It's bad enough trying to avoid CA like the plague.

Patrick Aherne
11-28-07, 00:40
870. That is all you need to know about fighting shotguns. Vang big safety, get some ghost rings from Vang, mesa tactical sidesaddle, SF forend light.

DocHolliday01
11-28-07, 00:46
Understand. My Trijicon/SF rep is also big with Benelli so I would hoping to pick an M4 up at around his cost. If I can, then I will go that route for sure. If not, I might just pick up an Remy Police with a 14" barrel.


C4

Grant have you considered an 870 or 1187 built by Vang Comp's? I think it would run you around the price of the M4, (but i dont know what rep price is on the M4 just going off of what i see them for sale on the intranet)

Lumpy196
11-28-07, 02:45
In the name of hard schooling, Id probably take an 870P myself...

nickdrak
11-28-07, 07:57
The 870P-Max is set up just about perfect, except for maybe the stock. But that can be easily changed out to better fit you. The Hornady Tap 00Buck shoots nice tight groups out of my Benelli M1 S90, but the new Federal Tactical LE13200 "Flight Control" is supposed to be the cats-ass as far as tight 00 buck groups go.

Dport
11-28-07, 08:01
In the name of hard schooling, Id probably take an 870P myself...

While I understand your point, and every shotgun class I've been to has used a pump gun of one sort or another, I have to disagree. I would much rather train with a gun that I'm going to use.

Don Robison
11-28-07, 08:33
I'll go against the grain on this one and recommend the 14" 590 with an added Trijicon tritium bead. Vang can lengthen the forcing cone, but I haven't found it necessary. It's truly ambi-friendly for offhand work. My second choice would be an 870, rugged and reliable, but not as friendly to left side use.

C4IGrant
11-28-07, 08:41
Grant:

The Reminton 870 is the way to go period! If you go with the Police get the bead sight, add ghost rings, side saddle, short length of pull stock, and a Sure Fire forend. One issue with stock Reminton rifle sights is that only 2 or 3 threads project into the barrel to hold the sight on (Info from Rob himself) and they loosen or shear. If you go the custom gun route have Hans Vang build one for you. Scatter Gun Tech is just a dressed up Express model. Rob can do some really sick stuff with an 870 and I watched him empty one faster than a a guy could empty a Benilli. Federal LE 132 is the way to go for ammo but you will shoot mostly bird shot in the class and just a few slugs and buck. If you host the class please send me the sign up info.


Thanks for the info. The class will be listed in the training section of this forum.


C4

C4IGrant
11-28-07, 08:42
Grant have you considered an 870 or 1187 built by Vang Comp's? I think it would run you around the price of the M4, (but i dont know what rep price is on the M4 just going off of what i see them for sale on the intranet)


Have considered this as well. Can get Remy police shotguns at LE Distr. prices so I might just go that route.


C4

condition 1
11-28-07, 08:47
In the name of hard schooling, Id probably take an 870P myself...

Yep, 870p, all you have to do is feed it, "KISS" is best on shotguns,I have had good luck with Federal tac. low recoil.

carshooter
11-28-07, 14:20
Grant,

Remington fulfilled a government contract for 14" guns using Scattergun Technologies sights. Last time I saw a Remington LE price list, that model was listed.

A 14" 870 with a one round magazine extension and Ghost Ring sights would be (and is) my personal choice. I own several semi auto shotguns, but none are completely reliable with reduced recoil loads, so I prefer the 870 for serious use.

I'd be more than happy to run by the shop with both a 14" & 18" Border Patrol, and my Ghost ringed 11/87P if you'd like to shoot them one day.

PM me if you're interested.

rhino
11-28-07, 16:36
. . . FN SLP/Winchester SX2.. . .

This would be my first choice by a long shot (no pun intended). The next shotgun I buy will either be Winchester SX2 Practical Mk I or the FN SLP equivalent.

My second choice would be a Remington 1100 or 11-87 built by someone who genuinely knows how to make them run well. I realize it's not a popular choice, but I love mine and they work.

Buck
11-28-07, 17:08
As I have taught this class for years and seen hundreds of thousands of 12 gauge rounds go gown range out of tactical shotguns, this is a topic that I feel very comfortable talking about…

Without a doubt I would recommend a Remington 870P… The Police marked 870s are assembled on a completely different assembly line than the Magnums or the Express guns. The quality control is much higher on the Police 870s and they use better quality springs in the action…

The semi auto guns are nice, but the 870Ps are work horses…

Here is the configuration I would recommend:

20 inch barrel with rifle sights and 14 inch barrel with rifle sights so you can change back and forth as needed…

Meprolight makes a factory style, set of night sights that works very well. I do not care for the trijicon “pistol” sights.

Scattergun just glues their sights on with epoxy, they end up falling off and the front blade is way too wide…

I like the vang comp magazine extension with the solid fixed front sling swivel the best. It is machined from solid bar stock. The factory Remington and the Tac-star ones work just fine too… Avoid the scattergun magazine extensions at all costs… They are silver soldiered together and with hard use they are prone to separating and launching the extension down range making your shotgun a single shot.

If using the Remington or tac-star magazine extension the scattergun stand alone fixed front sling swivel is the best. The GG&G ones do not fit correctly…

Be sure to keep the factory nut so you can take off the magazine extension for use with the 14 inch barrel. And be sure to use the long spring with the extension and the short one with out.

Some of the newer production guns have a pressed in set of ears inside the magazine tube. Be sure that these are removed or pressed out prior to installing the extension or the spring / follower will not move freely.

Scattergun does make a nice high-vis lime green plastic magazine follower with a easy to feel button.

The Surefire dedicated light fore-end is the king of the plains, but be sure to put the limiter on the pressure switch to avoid turning the light on every time you rack the action.

The factory safety works just fine and does not need replacing… The extended models offered by several manufactures are a solution looking for a problem…

Tac-star six or four round side saddle…

Fixed rear side sling swivel plate between the rear of the receiver and the stock

Speed feed youth length pistol grip stock WITHOUT the internal magazine. The magazine collects junk and the rounds are not held in securely enough. They either fall out or get hung up. The shorter length stock is the correct length of pull for most shooters using a tactical shotgun. NOTE, the washer provided with the speed feed stock is junk. With any hard use it will turn into a soup bowl and the stock will become lose and start to bite. Go to your local hardware store and purchase two thick steel washers and a split washer to sandwich between them. This is the best fix for this problem.

I recommend a padded VTAC attached to the front and rear fixed side sling points or the Blueforce if you prefer. It drives just like your carbine…

I do not like butt cuffs… With any vigorous use the rounds always fall out and leave a trail of shotgun ammo like Hansel and Gretel…

If you think you will need more ammo, I highly recommend the California Competition Works 12 gauge tactical stripper. Order it directly from CCW and ask for the black nylon cover and the Bianchi M9 holster belt clip so you can put it on or take it off without having to remove your belt.

Put it all in a short Pelican hard case and you are ready to kick doors with the best of them.

As to ammo I really like the 2 ¾ Federal TAC 9 OO buckshot and the 2 ¾ Winchester Ranger 1oz low recoil slugs. You only lose about 200 feet per second with the low recoil slugs but the difference in the muzzle flash is dramatic when firing in low light conditions.

Just my .02

Buck

Lumpy196
12-01-07, 20:12
While I understand your point, and every shotgun class I've been to has used a pump gun of one sort or another, I have to disagree. I would much rather train with a gun that I'm going to use.


And that reasonable. IF you can always guarantee you'll have access to the shotgun of your choice. The pump action far outnumbers the semi-auto in availability many time.

Theres no doubt, semis are substantally easier to operate under stress, while not necessarily always faster in hands of a skilled user. Were I up for my first structured shotgun class, Id probably take an 870. Whats learned on the pump transfers to the semi much easier than vice versa.

Dport
12-01-07, 20:53
I was reminded of this thread while fondling guns at the Gander Mountain. They had Remington 1100 tacticals for $600. They had a green finish that reminded me of Wilson Combat's finish on their ARs. They also had an 870 tactical with the same finish. Both had extended magazines and standard "field stocks." The interesting thing is they had fiber optic front sights on a vent ribbed barrel (the 1100 did for sure, I don't recall the 870). I want to say the 870 was going for ~$350.

They also had the FN pump action gun with the ported barrel, AR style sights, stock and pistol grip. They wanted $800! Way too much for a pump gun, IMO. But the ergos might be worth it for some.

They also had a Benelli Super Nova tactical with a pistol gripped stock. It came in three color desert camo. Not my cup of tea, as it seems like they are trying to profit off of having troops in the gulf.


while not necessarily always faster in hands of a skilled user.
I understand your point. I just never viewed a shotgun as a pick up gun.

This point reminds me of Tom Knapp. I will say that of the people I've met who say they work a pump faster than a semi, only one could actually do it. And then he was only engaging one target and he wasn't successful 100% of the time. He managed to work himself to the point where he would short-stroke.

rob_s
12-01-07, 21:14
I always reduce the semi-vs-pump argument to this:
If you know you're going to shoot one type of ammo, and you can get a semi that'll run it, go for it. If you're going to run various types of ammo and want to ensure that the gun runs with all types, get a pump.

For many the value of the shotgun is it's ability to fire many different types of ammo for many different types of applications. I haven't come across the semi-auto yet that can do this reliably, despite many marketing and internet claims to the contrary.

Dport
12-01-07, 21:23
I always reduce the semi-vs-pump argument to this:
If you know you're going to shoot one type of ammo, and you can get a semi that'll run it, go for it. If you're going to run various types of ammo and want to ensure that the gun runs with all types, get a pump.

For many the value of the shotgun is it's ability to fire many different types of ammo for many different types of applications. I haven't come across the semi-auto yet that can do this reliably, despite many marketing and internet claims to the contrary.
I guess the question is just how many types of ammo are you planning on shooting?

rob_s
12-01-07, 21:34
I guess the question is just how many types of ammo are you planning on shooting?

That is exactly the question, and it's not up for you to decide what ammo I'm shooting or me to decide what ammo you're shooting.

This is one of those situations where people shouldn't make assumptions about other people's needs. They should just try to educate one another as to what features are good for what and let the person make up their own mind.

I will say that I've been to matches where we've used buck, bird, and slugs, and other than the Saigas I haven't seen a semi yet that cycled with all three. If that type of match is your game, then the semi is of limited use.

Dport
12-01-07, 21:38
That is exactly the question, and it's not up for you to decide what ammo I'm shooting or me to decide what ammo you're shooting.

This is one of those situations where people shouldn't make assumptions about other people's needs. They should just try to educate one another as to what features are good for what and let the person make up their own mind.

I will say that I've been to matches where we've used buck, bird, and slugs, and other than the Saigas I haven't seen a semi yet that cycled with all three. If that type of match is your game, then the semi is of limited use.
I think you missed my point. If you are using a shotgun for defensive work, you need a good buckshot load of some type and a good slug load. Variety isn't where it's at when it comes to a defensive shotgun. (Exceptions are for less lethal munitions, which probably should have their own guns anyway.) Find a load that cycles your gun and patterns well and stick with it. In reality, neither is hard to do these days with modern shells.

rob_s
12-01-07, 21:42
I'm not debating that with you, but you are making my point.

It's not up to you to tell someone what ammo to use, especially not in the context of this discussion. If they want to use one or two types of ammo and get their gun running around that ammo, a semi-auto may well work for them. If not, they are most likely best served by a pump.

For every scenario you can come up with where you only need one type of ammo, someone else can come up with a scenario where you need three. It's boring and pointless.

Dport
12-01-07, 23:10
I'm not debating that with you, but you are making my point.

It's not up to you to tell someone what ammo to use, especially not in the context of this discussion. If they want to use one or two types of ammo and get their gun running around that ammo, a semi-auto may well work for them. If not, they are most likely best served by a pump.

For every scenario you can come up with where you only need one type of ammo, someone else can come up with a scenario where you need three. It's boring and pointless.

I'm not telling anyone what ammunition to use. I would, however, like to hear a scenario where someone would use something other than buck and slug for defense (We are talking about a defensive firearm, not a hunting gun, not a survival gun. If someone wants all three the they should go for an 870 with multiple barrels as it is the best option available.).

rob_s
12-02-07, 06:50
We're agreeing more than you think, and this discussion had limited interest for me to begin with as frankly I see no defensive purpose for a shotgun at all. :eek:

Dport
12-02-07, 09:35
We're agreeing more than you think, and this discussion had limited interest for me to begin with as frankly I see no defensive purpose for a shotgun at all. :eek:
Aw come one, you're not going to advocate bird shot?:D

I think the shotgun is still a viable tool. Is it the best tool? Probably not. I've always seen it as a specialized tool that requires a high degree of training to use efficiently and effectively.

Voodoochild
12-02-07, 10:15
Grant have you looked in to a saiga? Looks pretty nice..

C4IGrant
12-02-07, 10:47
Aw come one, you're not going to advocate bird shot?:D

I think the shotgun is still a viable tool. Is it the best tool? Probably not. I've always seen it as a specialized tool that requires a high degree of training to use efficiently and effectively.



Shotguns do have their place. Just like the AK does. While neither are my first choice as a defensive tool, you just never know what you will have around when bad things happen.

This is why I took an AK class and will take a shotgun class. Being well rounded is a good thing.



C4

C4IGrant
12-02-07, 10:48
Grant have you looked in to a saiga? Looks pretty nice..


I have not looked at them.


I ordered a Remy 870P Max and might send it off to Vang for some work (we shall see).



C4

Dport
12-02-07, 11:20
Being well rounded is a good thing.

C4

Indeed it is.

A Vang Comp'ed 870 would be a great gun to have.


I had a Scattergun Tech 1100. I sent it to TN and got it back from AR. Just my timing, I sent it at the same time ST was bought by Wilson Combat. :( It was nice, but I regretted not sending it to Vang.

Buck
12-02-07, 12:38
I have not looked at them.
I ordered a Remy 870P Max and might send it off to Vang for some work (we shall see).
C4

Vang can do some very nice work to the interior of the barrel, but I would advise against having it ported... The amount of flash that comes out of the ports at night is truly blinding...

toddackerman
12-06-07, 09:11
I have not looked at them.


I ordered a Remy 870P Max and might send it off to Vang for some work (we shall see).



C4

Grant,

I think you made the right choice for the platform.

Here's a little advice that might save you $300 (Vang Comp) to $600 (Vang Comp w/ Ghost Rings)...


I've had Hans' work done on one of my 870's, but suggest you take it out first and try some of the new Federal Flite Control Wad 00 Buck loads. Patterns as tight out of a 18" IC barrel as the Federal Tactical 00 Loads did from a Vang Comp'd barrel. About 3-4" at 15yds., and 8" at 25 yds. At 21 feet, everything including the Wad goes through one hole. :)

IF the 870 Police has the new "Limb Saver" recoil pad, you may not think you need the "Port Job" portion of the Vang setup as well. I didn't, but I'm 6'0 and 235 lbs. Recoil and follow up shots have never been an issue with me. Others may disagree based on their frame size and strength.

As far as sights, I like Rifle Sights. They are "As Fast" for me an much more accurate. Easy to hit head shots with slugs at 25 yds....quickly! Head shots at 50 yds. are no problem either, but it takes maybe 1.5 - 2 seconds to do it. For me, Ghost Rings on a precision shot (4" circle) at 50 yds. was pretty much un-doable without going to prone, or some other supported position. There are differing views on this from the "Experts", so if you can..."try before you buy".

If you want to try an 18" IC with Rifle Sights, and can't get one close by, email me, and we'll get you "hooked" up for a trial run. I'd make the same offer on a Ghost Ring setup, but I no longer own one.

I don't mean to bash Hans Vang because he is a true gentleman and artisan in the industry. I just think that as with most things, technology catches up, and needs change.

rob_s
12-06-07, 09:47
IIRC Randy Cain agrees with you re: rifle sights vs. ghost rings.

rob_s
12-06-07, 09:52
I ordered a Remy 870P Max

This one, right?
http://www.remingtonle.com/images/shotguns/870pmax.jpg

C4IGrant
12-06-07, 09:55
That is it.

If I like it, I might just start stocking them. :D


C4

FJB
12-06-07, 15:11
Grant,
Smart decision. Get the 870P send it to Hans Vang to have him work the barrel, minus the ports, install his Safety and his SS follower. The Ghost Ring Sights as installed from the factory should work okay. You could have him install his new Ghost Ring sights. I would definitely have him install a piece of Picatinny rail on the receiver so you can run a Micro T-1 on top.

I now have two Micro T-1s that have gone through both Louis Awerbuck/Scott Reitz YFI Shotgun - 1 three day class, as well as Bill Jeans (Morrigan Consulting) 4 day CA POST Shotgun Instructor class sitting on 870s built by Hans. Each gun and optic have over 800 target loads, 200 00B, 150 00B.

You'll still need to pattern numerous loads of 00B and slug for your gun to find which load it prefers. Every shotgun, regardless of manufacturer, will shoot and prefer a different manufacturers load of ammo. Find which brands your prefers and understand which ones it doesn't. That way you'll know which brand to purchase and how the others will perform is forced to use them in a difficult situation.

Shotguns are very much under appreciated. Their power and versatility make them a very impressive close quarters weapon system, as well as more than capable of engaging threats out to 100+ yards with a good sights/optics and slugs.

Attached is my older 870 that Hans has worked his magic. It is an 18" brrl with LPA ghost ring sights, an older Surefire light, Vang Safety, Vang SS Follower, Vang Breaching Adapter (great for ballistic breaching, as well as "tagging and bagging" in a less lethal roll, i.e. sternum punch etc.), and Vang installed Pic Rail for a Micro T-1. It is currently wearing a 6 rnd Tac-Star Side Saddle, but intend to replace that with a 4 rnd Mesa Tactical when it wears out. I intend to get a 14" brrl for it as well some time in the future.

Also, attached is my son's 870 that Vang worked on. It is a 20" Brrl VangComp'd and ported (Hans threw the porting into the package, but I don't prefer for serious work guns) with LPA Ghost ring sights and Pic Rail for a Micro T-1, a new Surefire light, Vang Safety, Vang SS Follower, Vang 2 rnd mag extension, and a 4 rnd Mesa Tactical side saddle. It is being shot by a former Sgt of Marines that used to work for me and is now a CA LEO.

S/F

Tom_Jones
12-06-07, 15:27
deleted

C4IGrant
12-06-07, 16:08
Let us know if you do. I'll buy at least 1 (perhaps 2 as I like to have spares) from you.


Will do.

C4

decodeddiesel
04-01-08, 17:35
As I have taught this class for years and seen hundreds of thousands of 12 gauge rounds go gown range out of tactical shotguns, this is a topic that I feel very comfortable talking about…

Without a doubt I would recommend a Remington 870P… The Police marked 870s are assembled on a completely different assembly line than the Magnums or the Express guns. The quality control is much higher on the Police 870s and they use better quality springs in the action…

The semi auto guns are nice, but the 870Ps are work horses…

Here is the configuration I would recommend:

20 inch barrel with rifle sights and 14 inch barrel with rifle sights so you can change back and forth as needed…

Meprolight makes a factory style, set of night sights that works very well. I do not care for the trijicon “pistol” sights.

Scattergun just glues their sights on with epoxy, they end up falling off and the front blade is way too wide…

I like the vang comp magazine extension with the solid fixed front sling swivel the best. It is machined from solid bar stock. The factory Remington and the Tac-star ones work just fine too… Avoid the scattergun magazine extensions at all costs… They are silver soldiered together and with hard use they are prone to separating and launching the extension down range making your shotgun a single shot.

If using the Remington or tac-star magazine extension the scattergun stand alone fixed front sling swivel is the best. The GG&G ones do not fit correctly…

Be sure to keep the factory nut so you can take off the magazine extension for use with the 14 inch barrel. And be sure to use the long spring with the extension and the short one with out.

Some of the newer production guns have a pressed in set of ears inside the magazine tube. Be sure that these are removed or pressed out prior to installing the extension or the spring / follower will not move freely.

Scattergun does make a nice high-vis lime green plastic magazine follower with a easy to feel button.

The Surefire dedicated light fore-end is the king of the plains, but be sure to put the limiter on the pressure switch to avoid turning the light on every time you rack the action.

The factory safety works just fine and does not need replacing… The extended models offered by several manufactures are a solution looking for a problem…

Tac-star six or four round side saddle…

Fixed rear side sling swivel plate between the rear of the receiver and the stock

Speed feed youth length pistol grip stock WITHOUT the internal magazine. The magazine collects junk and the rounds are not held in securely enough. They either fall out or get hung up. The shorter length stock is the correct length of pull for most shooters using a tactical shotgun. NOTE, the washer provided with the speed feed stock is junk. With any hard use it will turn into a soup bowl and the stock will become lose and start to bite. Go to your local hardware store and purchase two thick steel washers and a split washer to sandwich between them. This is the best fix for this problem.

I recommend a padded VTAC attached to the front and rear fixed side sling points or the Blueforce if you prefer. It drives just like your carbine…

I do not like butt cuffs… With any vigorous use the rounds always fall out and leave a trail of shotgun ammo like Hansel and Gretel…

If you think you will need more ammo, I highly recommend the California Competition Works 12 gauge tactical stripper. Order it directly from CCW and ask for the black nylon cover and the Bianchi M9 holster belt clip so you can put it on or take it off without having to remove your belt.

Put it all in a short Pelican hard case and you are ready to kick doors with the best of them.

As to ammo I really like the 2 ¾ Federal TAC 9 OO buckshot and the 2 ¾ Winchester Ranger 1oz low recoil slugs. You only lose about 200 feet per second with the low recoil slugs but the difference in the muzzle flash is dramatic when firing in low light conditions.

Just my .02

Buck

Sorry to bump such an old thread, however my goodness Buck, what an amazing post! Well done Sir!

xtremejc
04-04-08, 18:22
That is it.

If I like it, I might just start stocking them. :D


C4

How much is that shotgun? Can you recomend a dealer for it? That is a good looking rig !

JC

C4IGrant
04-05-08, 08:46
How much is that shotgun? Can you recomend a dealer for it? That is a good looking rig !

JC


We are starting to stock them. Contact us for pricing.



C4

frbowers
04-17-08, 13:40
Vang can do some very nice work to the interior of the barrel, but I would advise against having it ported... The amount of flash that comes out of the ports at night is truly blinding...

Any other comments pro or con relative to Vang Comp's porting? Vang Comp claims that the porting actually reduces muzzle flash. I'm getting ready to send an 870 police magnum down to them for some work and am up in the air over porting. Also debating 14" barrel or keeping it 18". I like how handy the 14" 870s I've handled have been.

Buck
04-19-08, 13:01
Any other comments pro or con relative to Vang Comp's porting? Vang Comp claims that the porting actually reduces muzzle flash. I'm getting ready to send an 870 police magnum down to them for some work and am up in the air over porting. Also debating 14" barrel or keeping it 18". I like how handy the 14" 870s I've handled have been.

It may decrease the amount of flash coming out of the end of the barrel, but thats because its redirecting it out of the holes in the top and into your line of site... I really like the work he does inside the barrel and his magazine extension, but I do not like his porting or giant safety....

14 inch shotguns as primary weapons are really used for dismounting vehicles in a hurry... An 18 or 20 inch, IC or mod barrel with rifle sights, gives you six or seven rounds in the magazine instead of four, and the ability to make 100 + yard slug shots as well as 00 buckshot or breaching rounds...


I seem to be a few months late to this one but...

If you are buying a shotgn to do one of R. Haught's classes, you need to use a 870 or at the very least a pump gun. 90% of Rob's unique technique centers around the pump action and will actually cause malfunctions sometimes in guns like Benelli's.

I love my old HK Benelli but Buck is spot on---the 870 is THE shotgun you want if you really need to rely on it. I've got a Wilson/Scattergun 14" 870 that shoots great and doesn't skip a beat.

Great minds think alike...

Buck

P.S. The new Federal tactical 00 buck has a flight control wad that is truly amazing... It patterns better out of a factory 870 Police IC barrel than the old ammunition in a reworked Vang barrel...

Buckaroo
04-19-08, 19:19
Buck,
You've inspired me recently---I shot skeet today with the 14" 870 and have been putting major rounds through the snubby 642.

Just bought my first snubby and I am having a riot learning to shoot it!

My son shoots my 590A1 in wobble trap at the club.

Buckaroo

Robb Jensen
04-20-08, 05:44
I'm planning on soon sending my Rem 870 Magnum to Wilson for the 'Remington Steal' w/Trak Lock sights (retail is $350) so I need to call them with what dealer is on that. Since they don't return the furniture I'm going to throw a beater Express wood stock and fore-end on it. When I get it back I'll add non pistol grip Youth length Speedfeed stock. I may later send the barrel to Vang but with the performance of the new Federal ammo I may not.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/56eb3422.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/gunpics/6aef7549.jpg

Buck
04-20-08, 12:25
I'm planning on soon sending my Rem 870 Magnum to Wilson for the 'Remington Steal' w/Trak Lock sights

Just a FYI, in the past Wilson would use epoxy and glue the front sight in place, and nothing more... I have found that the epoxy would find the worst possible time to fail and the front sight would end up somewhere 20 feet behind the shooter in the dirt... So if you decide to have them do this I suggest that you have the sight brazed in place after it comes back...

BTW: I guess all the screaming about the silver solder on Wilson magazine extensions failing had an effect.... The last few I have seen at work were welded together prior to finishing, and they appear to be quite strong...

Perhaps they have started welding the sights too...

B

LouDiamond
04-20-08, 12:31
Fixed rear side sling swivel plate between the rear of the receiver and the stock


I am curious which plate and what type of sling combo you are using in this configuration? My experience has been that set up in this fashion with a 2 point sling(Vickers CAS), that it tends to get crowded where the safety,shell holder all come together and the sling sometimes gets in the way.

I'm surprised no one has developed an after market QR detach swivel set( male and female pieces) that can be mounted on the side of a synthetic buttstock.
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/100003224.jpg

Buck
04-20-08, 12:50
I am curious which plate and what type of sling combo you are using in this configuration? My experience has been that set up in this fashion with a 2 point sling(Vickers CAS), that it tends to get crowded where the safety,shell holder all come together and the sling sometimes gets in the way.

These are the KZ 870 fixed rear swivels... But several manufactures make something similar...

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/botach_1996_95723425http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/botach_1999_454538944

And here is the Wilson fixed front swivel...
http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/image?saleitemid=117626



I'm surprised no one has developed an after market QR detach swivel set( male and female pieces) that can be mounted on the side of a synthetic buttstock.
http://www.brownells.com/Images/Products/100003224.jpg

Mesa Tactical makes one that works with their 870 M4 stock adapter / recoil reducer... Although I have never personally tried one of them they do look interesting...

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/44.jpg

B

LouDiamond
04-20-08, 20:25
Mesa Tactical makes one that works with their 870 M4 stock adapter / recoil reducer... Although I have never personally tried one of there they do look interesting...

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/44.jpg

B


I have the Mesa set up on one of my weapons. I attached the QD and sling and reconfirmed that in that configuration the sling tends to get in the way. When I aim the weapon the sling comes between my cheek and the buttstock of the weapon. Strong side reloading from the side saddle is also more difficult with the sling mounted that far forward. I think, at least in my case, that a sling attachment point further back on the buttstock works better. On my work and personal M4(5.56), the sling attachment behind the receiver isn't an issue but then again it isn't a shotgun.

The rear sling attachment point on the buttstock of my Benelli M4 feels the most comfortable for me and the least restrictive out of all the possible configurations.

Buck
04-20-08, 23:44
If they are pinning the front sights in place now, that is a change from the way they used to do it... The older ones were epoxy only and were always falling off... It seems they must of both changed the way they manufactured the magazine extensions (now they are welded VS silver solder only) and the method (pined) they attach the front sights...

IMHO both of these are big improvements... Imagine suddenly finding yourself in a gunfight with a single shot shotgun that has no front sight... Man that would suck...

On a side note, I really do not like their "Remington steal" (pun intended) package... They are selling you the substandard 870 Express parts they took off the lowest grade Express shotguns they purchased from Remington to make their other premium guns... They are simply blasting and parkerizing your receiver and barrel, then installing the takeoff Express stocks and the complete Express plastic trigger guard housing... Any other parts that are BO are also replaced with the lower quality Express takeoffs... You could buy a new 870 Express for less than they charge you for this "service"...

I think you would do a lot better buying the higher grade 870 Police parts from Brownells or Midway, and just having someone repark your receiver and barrel for $80 or so...

Just my .02

B

Buck
04-20-08, 23:56
I have the Mesa set up on one of my weapons. I attached the QD and sling and reconfirmed that in that configuration the sling tends to get in the way. When I aim the weapon the sling comes between my cheek and the buttstock of the weapon. Strong side reloading from the side saddle is also more difficult with the sling mounted that far forward. I think, at least in my case, that a sling attachment point further back on the buttstock works better. On my work and personal M4(5.56), the sling attachment behind the receiver isn't an issue but then again it isn't a shotgun.

The rear sling attachment point on the buttstock of my Benelli M4 feels the most comfortable for me and the least restrictive out of all the possible configurations.

I go back and forth between the fixed KZ rear swivel, and an older tactical tailor rear butt stock top mount that was originally built for a fix stocked M-16...

Something like this:

http://www.vikingtactics.com/images/Adapter-vtac-mk3.jpg

I like them both, but I am currently running the older tactical tailor adapter for what thats worth...

B

LouDiamond
04-23-08, 23:05
After a little research I found what I have been looking for. Brownells carries a QR set made by uncle mike's like the one I posted a picture of above with both the male and female pieces. A drill and some epoxy is all that is needed to install the QD sling. It should be fairly easy to do on a synthetic butt stock since you can access the inside of the butt stock easily and epoxy the female receptacle at the correct height so that it is flush with the outside of the butt stock. A wood stock would require a bit more skill but is do-able.

Buck
04-26-08, 23:39
Lou,

I really liked your idea and what I did was install a uncle mikes fixed 1 1/4 inch swivel on the top of my duty 870s speedfeed stock... The same way the British installed a top butt swivel on Thompson SMGs and MK5 Stens... I don't know why I never thought of this before... It works like a champ...

B

LouDiamond
04-27-08, 01:17
Lou,

I really liked your idea and what I did was install a uncle mikes fixed 1 1/4 inch swivel on the top of my duty 870s speedfeed stock... The same way the British installed a top butt swivel on Thompson SMGs and MK5 Stens... I don't know why I never thought of this before... It works like a champ...

B

I haven't gotten around to my project yet but it's good to hear that there is another option as well. When you get a chance, post some pictures.

LouDiamond
04-27-08, 15:25
Was able to quickly do the top of Butt Stock modification today. It's fairly straight forward and not hard to do, I did it on the floor in my living room. It took about 30 mins to do. Items needed:

Drill
3/8 drill bit( this is slightly smaller than the diameter of the female portion)
Hammer
Circular rat tail file
Epoxy
Sharpie or other marking device
Uncle Mikes QD-100 1" swivel set

Using the sharpie I marked the buttstock with where the hole was to be drilled. Once the hole was made I began manually sizing the hole to the female portion using the rat tail file using the Mark I calibrated eyeball. This is the longest part of the install unless you start with a drill bit bigger than 3/8. Once the correct diameter hole was made and the female portion could be inserted partially, I used the Hammer to tap it into place. Having a snug fitting makes it easier to keep the female portion in place while the epoxy sets up.

Because the top portion of the butt stock is rounded the edges of the female portion will protrude slightly above the surface when it is seated flush. Also make sure to leave enough room for the butt stock recoil pad screw to be screwed in all the way. If the QD is in line with the factory mounting hole on the bottom of the stock you should be good to go.

As an alternative to the QD sling mounts, the factory attachment from the bottom of the stock can be removed and screwed into the top of the butt Stock and a regular sling attachment could be used. This requires no new parts be purchased and since the post is threaded, once a starter hole is made it can be screwed in by hand.

844
845
846
847

Buck
04-27-08, 18:31
Just a quick pic of the fixed swivel I installed...

848

I removed the recoil pad and drilled a hole just slightly larger than the machine screw threads on the swivel and then locktighted the nut in place... The swivel can rotate 360' and the with the nut on the inside of the stock, it is VERY strong...

I have no need of the QD feature on the swivel, and the VCAS sling that I use has a fastex buckle if i really need to get free of the sling in a hurry...

I think this is a great mod...

Just my .02

B

P.S. I know my camera abilities suck...

LouDiamond
04-27-08, 18:45
JI think this is a great modJ

I am in agreement with you. I am just surprised that it's not seen more,especially with all the tacti-cool mods people seem to be into..and this one actually does something useful:p