View Full Version : Opinions on Adam Arms Mid-length Piston Upper
PA PATRIOT
11-20-11, 11:12
http://www.adamsarms.net/store/107-thickbox_default/16-mid-base-upper.jpg
http://www.adamsarms.net/store/uppers/73-16-mid-base-upper.html
The Adams Arms Standard 5.56 Mid-length Piston Upper
•Mid-length Gas Piston System
•16" Mid-length Melonited Barrel
•Chambered in 5.56 NATO
•M4 Feed Ramps
•1:7 Right Handed Twist
•M4 Style Handguard and Handguard Cap
•A2 Flash Hider
This is a complete upper which includes a bolt carrier group and charging handle.
Been looking at this Mid-length piston upper for a while but not much information or user reviews found on a net search. Anyone own or had any dealings with a Adams Arms product?
I have a mid-length rifle from them that I currently testing. So far I haven't had any issues with the system. It is a little heavier than a DI gun. I can not speak for one directly from Adams Arms but their piston system is being used by a lot of manufacturers.
Dan
Midway USA is going to be having a sale on these $499, normally $599 through them. I'm strongly considering one of these as well but I'm curious as to how durable the gas block attatchment to the barrel is, appears to be screw on clamp. Spare parts seem to be rather expensive for this system. Also I wider if their bolts and barrels are HPT/MPI? No mention of this on their site. Maybe I'll just get a BCM midlength upper and get the drop in system AA sells.
PA PATRIOT
11-20-11, 17:16
Midway USA is going to be having a sale on these $499, normally $599 through them. I'm strongly considering one of these as well but I'm curious as to how durable the gas block attatchment to the barrel is, appears to be screw on clamp. Spare parts seem to be rather expensive for this system. Also I wider if their bolts and barrels are HPT/MPI? No mention of this on their site. Maybe I'll just get a BCM midlength upper and get the drop in system AA sells.
Seen that sale on Midway and it was the main force behind my question as they will sell fast and its a one day sale. Not many reviews on the net so that is scaring me off a bit.
Yeah, the lack of info on the "TDP" type stuff has me doubting I'll get the upper itself and rather the piston system to drop into my own setup
I've built two mid length carbines with Adam's Arms kits and they work flawlessly. After a few thousand rounds now through each gun, still no stoppages, issues of any type. Worth their weight in gold.
I've built two mid length carbines with Adam's Arms kits and they work flawlessly. After a few thousand rounds now through each gun, still no stoppages, issues of any type. Worth their weight in gold.
What about carrier tilt? I know they make a proprietary carrier that they include in the kit. Any wear in the receiver extension or odd wear in upper? I think I'm gonna get one of their kits and one of their uppers with the 45 degree cut cam pin recess(also their uppers dnt require the bushing) and put it on a DD midlength CHF
I have not noticed any major wear or tear on the buffer tube or bolt carrier. A little of the finish has worn away right where the buffer itself sits inside the tube on the bottom (right behind the detent). I've put both rifles through countless shooting packages, some shooting over 800 rounds in one day with nothing more than a quick wipe down and re-lube. The only issue is these piston kits do not work well with those Endine-type hydraulic buffers, I've been running a H2 buffer in mine without issues.
I have not noticed any major wear or tear on the buffer tube or bolt carrier. A little of the finish has worn away right where the buffer itself sits inside the tube on the bottom (right behind the detent). I've put both rifles through countless shooting packages, some shooting over 800 rounds in one day with nothing more than a quick wipe down and re-lube. The only issue is these piston kits do not work well with those Endine-type hydraulic buffers, I've been running a H2 buffer in mine without issues.
What about the gas block? Does it seem as though it would ever move? Thanks for sharing!
No movement in the gas block. This is a solid kit, easy to install too with the included DVD (and common armorer knowledge and tools).
PA PATRIOT
11-20-11, 23:21
Just tried to order this Adam Arms piston upper from Midway and of course the on-line ordering system is screwed up by not correcting the price once 12:00am hit on the east coast. So I ordered one as not to lose out on the good price and will have to work it out with C/S once they open at 8:00am. One would think that Midway would have a few C/S agents working to take customer calls when they kick off a week long special sale at mid-night.
I got mine through Brownells, usually in stock, with with a LE discount it was only about $300 per kit....best investment you'll make besides a good pump action street howitzer for home defense!
PA PATRIOT
11-21-11, 08:33
Just tried to order this Adam Arms piston upper from Midway and of course the on-line ordering system is screwed up by not correcting the price once 12:00am hit on the east coast. So I ordered one as not to lose out on the good price and will have to work it out with C/S once they open at 8:00am. One would think that Midway would have a few C/S agents working to take customer calls when they kick off a week long special sale at mid-night.
I called Midway this morning and they fixed up my order without issue so in a few days I should have a first impression review after I get a few rounds down range.
I called Midway this morning and they fixed up my order without issue so in a few days I should have a first impression review after I get a few rounds down range.
Give us a nice detailed review with pics if you can! Hope it works out for you. Good luck.
Midway USA is going to be having a sale on these $499, normally $599 through them.
http://www.primeaffiliate.com/track/images/22.gif
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-11, 05:17
Why do you want a piston?
Why is this a better option than a BCM 16.1'' LW Midlength?
Suwannee Tim
11-22-11, 05:23
.......I'm curious as to how durable the gas block attatchment to the barrel is, appears to be screw on clamp.....
This is a split collar with pinch bolt and is a very sturdy method of fixing something (gas block) to a cylindrical shaft (barrel). I am very pleased with my Adams 5.45. I assembled the upper myself as I wanted the clamp on gas block for ease of disassemble and reassembly. I plan to wear barrels out with this thing.
Suwannee Tim
11-22-11, 05:27
Why do you want a piston?
Why is this a better option than a BCM 16.1'' LW Midlength?
I wanted a piston to find out for myself what is the practical difference between piston and DI. What I have learned is there is not much difference. They both work well, each has some small advantages. I can't tell the difference when shooting. My question is, given that there is but little difference, why all the excitement when discussing one versus the other? For 5.45 mm the small advantage of not piping hot dirty gas into the action is made more valuable as the gas is hot, dirty and corrosive. Though now, instead of cleaning the bolt and bolt carrier, you now have the additional effort of cleaning the gas cylinder and piston.
PA PATRIOT
11-22-11, 09:04
Why do you want a piston?
Why is this a better option than a BCM 16.1'' LW Midlength?
I shoot a lot of the cheap Russian ammo which will gum up a bolt and coat the inside of a receiver quick. I wanted to see if a piston system offered any advanage in function over a D/I system battling the crud during extended shooting sessions at training classes.
Needed a new complete upper anyway and when I correctly researched Adam Arms I found only positive reviews of excellent quality and solid C/S.
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-11, 16:28
I understand.
I'd still go DI for that purpose, and read LittleLebowski's 5.45x39mm AR thread.
I think that you could still gum up, and possibly ruin your piston with cheap ammo.
I used to be a piston pusher. I'm a DI convert now, and I regret the money I spent on piston systems. FWIW.
I must have also missed that this was to be a 5.45x39mm training gun.
In that case. I'd still get a S&W gun because they're cheaper, and I wouldn't feel as bad about trashing it.
That cheap russian Bear crap should be limited to soviet style weapons, it works on some ARs, but its just nasty stuff.
The_Hammer_Man
11-25-11, 04:41
I've used the AA piston kit on several builds for customers and have not had anyone complain about them malfunctioning. Even after running several hundred, and in one case several thousand, rounds of cheap ammunition.
I've installed them on:
5.56/.223 uppers
5.45x39 uppers
6.8 SPCII uppers
6.5 Grendel uppers
No problems with any of them.
PA PATRIOT
11-25-11, 17:02
I gave A/A a call and they stated that their complete upper piston system has zero issues using cheap steel cased as they ensure proper port size and gas block alignment, all I have to add is a standard buffer and spring in my Mil-Spec lower.
A/A also stated that the piston is self cleaning and only requires being wiped down every thousand rounds.
I will see if they speak the truth once I get to the range and fire a few hundred rounds.
ltdanicecream
11-28-11, 23:57
I bought one of these AA uppers during the Midway sale too, we'll see how it goes.
PA PATRIOT
11-30-11, 03:28
I bought one of these AA uppers during the Midway sale too, we'll see how it goes.
In what condition did your AA upper arrive?
The AA I ordered from Midway arrived damage as Midway did a total crap job packing the upper. This will be going back on Midways dime and it will be the last item I ever buy from them.
In what condition did your AA upper arrive?
The AA I ordered from Midway arrived damage as Midway did a total crap job packing the upper. This will be going back on Midways dime and it will be the last item I ever buy from them.
All too often there are instances of this popping up with midway. Somebody needs to tell that old dopey bastard Larry Potterfield to get his shit together. I'm not even gonna take the chance ordering something like an upper from them, though I had considered it. I don't think they care about the customer, they claim to. They just want their money and for you to contribute to their NRA "roundup".
ltdanicecream
11-30-11, 11:53
In what condition did your AA upper arrive?
The AA I ordered from Midway arrived damage as Midway did a total crap job packing the upper. This will be going back on Midways dime and it will be the last item I ever buy from them.
Sorry to hear about your shipment, mine came ok, but it had no user manual or paperwork at all.
PA PATRIOT
11-30-11, 19:09
Sorry to hear about your shipment, mine came ok, but it had no user manual or paperwork at all.
Same here,
It appears that they removed some foam padding to stuff one of there catalogs inside allowing the upper to bounce around inside. My unit has a few dings Thur the finish on the left side of the receiver.
Shoulderthinggoesup
12-01-11, 01:27
Cheap steel cased ammo (wolf, bear) is not corrosive like the old surplus ammo. Completely different animal. The steel case ammo is just a little rough with the extractor and inaccurate.
The_Hammer_Man
12-02-11, 18:23
Cheap steel cased ammo (wolf, bear) is not corrosive like the old surplus ammo. Completely different animal. The steel case ammo is just a little rough with the extractor and inaccurate.
I don't think "inaccurate" is quite the word to use.. inconsistent certainly describes them though.
Just as a lark a friend of mine and I chronoed a bunch of different steel cased ammo from the "W" and "T" people.
As much as 400 fps differnence within the SAME box of ammo!
Shades of golden bullet!
( and yes that inconsistency in loads contributes to crappy accuracy.)
PA PATRIOT
12-03-11, 10:49
I don't think "inaccurate" is quite the word to use.. inconsistent certainly describes them though.
Just as a lark a friend of mine and I chronoed a bunch of different steel cased ammo from the "W" and "T" people.
As much as 400 fps difference within the SAME box of ammo!
Shades of golden bullet!
( and yes that inconsistency in loads contributes to crappy accuracy.)
I have seen the same with the "T" brand having some large swings in velocity but I have a few same lot cases of Wolf 55gr Copper H/P which has been very consistent running in average of 2840pfs with a S/D of 28 which is not bad for Russian steel cased ammunition.
Accuracy wise the groups with my current batch of Wolf mimics X193 in group size so at least with some lots of Russian steel case they were decently manufactured.
Now I shoot a lot of Wolf during the course of a year and would buy what ever happened to be on sale and available but I have noticed a difference in accuracy and velocity consistency between the different styles of Wolf .223 and for the record I prefer the Wolf 55gr Copper (Not Bi-Metal) H/P's as it is the most consistent from case to case, lot to lot then the other flavors of Wolf in my AR's.
Now once I settle my dispute with Midway over the damaged A/A upper they shipped me I will have to see how my lot of Wolf shoots thur this unit.
I picked up one of the Adams Arms uppers from Midway.
I had a earlier conversion piston units.....this new one is much better.
Testing accuracy NATO ammo pressure loads. Easily as accurate as my DI guns in similar configurations, with the same loads.
Good workmanship....runs well.
I am mostly interested in very cold weather operation.....they all work when it's hot.
I don't like running dry carriers and bolts for the cold.
I haven't gotten to sub zero testing yet .. pretty soon.. but with slip 2000 grease on the bolt and carrier wear points, it's running steadily well, in 10 degree cold, still delivering good accuracy. No gup up like my DI lubed guns in the cold.
Anyway......I like it very well so far....glad I bought it.
Paul P.
ltdanicecream
12-29-11, 12:53
Finally finished my build with my new AA upper and got around to shooting it. It actually has a bit more recoil and muzzle rise than my DI carbine upper. Not too surprising as it's a piston.
Also, is the finish wearing off a little too easily on their AA uppers? Mine came with little nicks on it, not that big of an issue, but after shooting it a few times and carrying it throughout the shooting sessions, the finish seems to come off quite easy.
It does run 100% reliable however.
Dont know about their complete upper.
But Im sure its of great quality, if its anything like the wifes carbine kit here:
Very interesting set up that your wife is running with. Plenty of rail space. Is it a pain in the ass to get to the piston to inspect and clean with that rail?
Kind of a waste regarding the rail, we both like irons on our kit.
Was really after the gain in sight radius.
Not so much of a pain, just more time consuming.
Must invert the weapon and let gravity assist you.
Likewise when putting it back in.
Plenty of room between the 4" extension to allow manipulation of the gas setting.
Finally finished my build with my new AA upper and got around to shooting it. It actually has a bit more recoil and muzzle rise than my DI carbine upper. Not too surprising as it's a piston.
Also, is the finish wearing off a little too easily on their AA uppers? Mine came with little nicks on it, not that big of an issue, but after shooting it a few times and carrying it throughout the shooting sessions, the finish seems to come off quite easy.
It does run 100% reliable however.
The finish on my AA mid length upper receiver of mine is terrible. If I look at it sternly the paint flakes off. Shoots great though.
I also have a Huldra Arms 5.45 carbine upper (rebadged AA) that has minimal wear on the upper receiver after 1200 rounds.
I guess they let a batch of upper receivers get out with faulty finish. I'll probably just krylon mine when it gets too bad.
callen3615
12-29-11, 23:39
I had so much wear on the inside of my AA upper that I sent it back and they refinished it, its better now. I think they let a batch slip past QC.
Underwhere
12-30-11, 00:07
I've built 5 rifles with complete AA midlength base uppers for myself and a few other people.
1 was older and apparently their barrels were different. The older one was heavy under the handguards and all of the newer Melonited barrels are thinner profile.
All of them function with zero issues since the first shot. Some of them have seen several thousand rounds and others only several hundred.
I have encountered 2 issues:
1. Carrier tilt. One of the uppers was placed on a well used complete lower receiver and it started to show light signs of carrier tilt. After about 200 rounds it seems to have worn away what it will and has not shown signs since. It is not wearing away significant amounts of the buffer tube so I don't really consider this a major issue.
2. Cam pin gouging the upper receiver. Out of the 5 that I've built only 1 of them is experiencing this. However I decided to get the POF Roller Cam pin for all of them. Piece of mind for me. Note that the gouging of the receiver did not cause any malfunctions.
The finish on all 5 of the uppers has been fine. Nothing to complain about. Maybe a bad batch went out.
I really like these uppers.
Here are 4 of them in a gangbang pic. The 5th one I built is almost a mirror image of the top FDE rifle.
http://i55.tinypic.com/4vml5i.jpg
PA PATRIOT
12-30-11, 09:38
I returned my A/A complete upper do to the poor receiver finish after a lengthy phone tag with A/A customer service. I have to say they are tough to get hold of and are slow to respond but I hope that Matt who I spoke with replaces the unit as promised. They did provide a call tag so its going back on their dime.
The finish on my receiver looked cheaply painted on and soft plus since Midway was selling these units cheap I have to wonder if they were seconds.
Any how the A/A unit has a lifetime warranty and if the unit fails to live up to normal AR durability standards then its on them to correct it.
PA PATRIOT
01-11-12, 09:31
I returned my A/A complete upper do to the poor receiver finish after a lengthy phone tag with A/A customer service. I have to say they are tough to get hold of and are slow to respond but I hope that Matt who I spoke with replaces the unit as promised. They did provide a call tag so its going back on their dime.
The finish on my receiver looked cheaply painted on and soft plus since Midway was selling these units cheap I have to wonder if they were seconds.
Any how the A/A unit has a lifetime warranty and if the unit fails to live up to normal AR durability standards then its on them to correct it.
Received my Adams Arms complete mid-length piston upper back yesterday from the manufacturer and it appears they completely replaced the unit. This one is in much better condition then the one I received from Midway which I now strongly feel was a return they sold as new.
The reason I feel the unit was a resold return was the bolt and flash suppressor had carbon deposits and the finish showed contact marks that it had be mounted to a lower receiver.
Now these marks could have occurred when Adams Arms test fired the unit after assembly but the replacement upper displayed none of the carbon or wear signs the old unit did.
So I give Adams Arms good marks for fully replacing the unit with new but I still have to give failing grades on being able to contact their customer service and the lack of contacting you back when they promise to do so.
Also I requested to purchase a MagPul Mid-length MOE forearm from Adams Arms and to have it fitted by them to replaced the standard set supplied on the upper. Matt agreed and stated it would be done, but I received the unit back wearing the standard set. I was not charged so its more of a inconvenience of them not following through with a parts replacement order.
I post a review once I have a chance to test fire the upper.
I've had nothing but smooth sailing with my 14.5" adams arms upper. Eats anything, doesn't complain, accuracy is as good as me and the eotech I have on it. I really like the melonite treatment in both the BCG and barrle. Cleans easily, I just wish I could find a melonite treated BCG for my DI gun.
http://imgur.com/dbVOy.jpg
I got the whole upper duracoated by adco.
suthrncop66
01-12-12, 02:09
I have a spikes with the AA from the factory and have had no problems with it at all.. the recoil does seem to be a little snappier than that of a DI and a little more of a crisper "bang" all in all love it
PA PATRIOT
01-13-12, 10:14
I have a spikes with the AA from the factory and have had no problems with it at all.. the recoil does seem to be a little snappier than that of a DI and a little more of a crisper "bang" all in all love it
What buffer are you running?
Was thinking a standard carbine or a "H" buffer to start with to cycle my training ammo which is Wolf and then see how the rifle functions with 5.56 loadings.
I don't want to beat up the BCG or piston system by going to lite on the buffer & spring so I'll play with buffer weighs until I work up a combo which functions 100% with both.
I don't have an AA but do have a CMMG. AA is easier to take out the piston.
The piston system snaps back a little more but thats a good thing when youre dealing with SBRs. I run my piston with a very heavy buffer with M16 BCG and it helps with the snap. It allso makes for better feeding and smoother action/cycling.
The advantage to the GP over DI is
1. better for SBRs...if this is the case, which it is I think its more reliable
2. better for suppressors...less gas in your face
3. cleaner BCG...easier to clean and gum things up
4. dont need to drain the gas tube when in water...not an issue for most of us
some people say GP are "just more parts to break." I dont believe this. On the BCG you dont have a key that can come loose or break and no gas rings. Whats the advantage of DI over GP? Price.
Maybe I'm wrong but of my 6 ARs one is a GP 16 inch CMMG. My next upper will be an AA SBR (either 7 or 10 inch). I love my GP.
So a >$200 kit is approaching the reliability of a $12 gas tube, good to know.
So a >$200 kit is approaching the reliability of a $12 gas tube, good to know.
so youve obviously made up your mind before you ever experienced the product???
there has to be a reason so many big gun companies are trying to switch/develop the piston platforms.
so youve obviously made up your mind before you ever experienced the product???
there has to be a reason so many big gun companies are trying to switch/develop the piston platforms.
I missed the part where I said I lacked experience wIth the system. Don't jump to conclusions, it makes for a smoother discussion.
I'm very familiar with the AA system and have used it plenty. It's more expensive, slightly heavier, uses inferior materials, and has a noticeably sharper recoil impulse compared to a standard gas tube. As for gun companies using them, it makes them more money. Simple as that.
Waste of money in my experience.
DeltaSierra
01-16-12, 12:46
there has to be a reason so many big gun companies are trying to switch/develop the piston platforms.
Yeah, they are doing it out of the kindness of their hearts. Of course they aren't making money by selling their proprietary contraptions...
There has to be a reason that so many highly experienced shooters don't use op-rod systems on an AR. I think that is called a clue, when people like Larry Vickers and Pat Rogers use DI rifles...
Personally, when op-rod driven rifles were fairly new, I tried one - it had enough issues that I won't be using another.
I guess the op-rod fans never got the memo about Filthy 14? I guess I should run out and buy some of these drop-in piston kits that are known for causing issues to solve a non-existent problem.....:rolleyes:
I like the GP for the reasons I stated above. To me its worth the extra cash. Keeping the BCG clean has to be a good thing. The impulse you get with a piston is also good because its transmitting more force backward. That why a SBR with a piston doesnt need a muzzle device to increase back pressure. Also to decrease that feeling it you can add a heavy buffer.
Maybe I'm wrong but I dont see how those things can be bad. Maybe its not worh the money but it does make it a better system. Also dont make a decision on the early systems. It seems like they have improved since then. Otherwise, the M16 would have been lost a long time ago. The first M16s had many issues that have been improved to form one of the best rifles in the world.
DeltaSierra
01-16-12, 17:12
I like the GP for the reasons I stated above. To me its worth the extra cash. Keeping the BCG clean has to be a good thing. The impulse you get with a piston is also good because its transmitting more force backward. That why a SBR with a piston doesnt need a muzzle device to increase back pressure. Also to decrease that feeling it you can add a heavy buffer.
Huh? The gun is FINE if the bolt gets dirty, so adding a supposed benefit, when there is no problem originally doesn't make one bit of sense.
I wasn't aware that MK18s had to have a special muzzle device to make them function - care to fill me in on that one?
Maybe I'm wrong but I dont see how those things can be bad. Maybe its not worh the money but it does make it a better system. Also dont make a decision on the early systems. It seems like they have improved since then. Otherwise, the M16 would have been lost a long time ago. The first M16s had many issues that have been improved to form one of the best, if not the best military rifle in the world.
How does it make a better system? You haven't given ONE reason yet that is in any way scientific, or based in fact, but rather a bunch of marketing hype that the op-rod manufacturers would have you believe with no supporting evidence.
Don't make a decision on the early systems? You obviously don't understand the situation. I had a production model rifle that wouldn't run correctly. The basic design has NOT changed, and the product is still, junk. I don't need to throw good money after bad to determine what is junk and what isn't.
Huh? The gun is FINE if the bolt gets dirty, so adding a supposed benefit, when there is no problem originally doesn't make one bit of sense.
I wasn't aware that MK18s had to have a special muzzle device to make them function - care to fill me in on that one?
How does it make a better system? You haven't given ONE reason yet that is in any way scientific, or based in fact, but rather a bunch of marketing hype that the op-rod manufacturers would have you believe with no supporting evidence.
Don't make a decision on the early systems? You obviously don't understand the situation. I had a production model rifle that wouldn't run correctly. The basic design has NOT changed, and the product is still, junk. I don't need to throw good money after bad to determine what is junk and what isn't.
Why did they make a pig tail/ spiral gas tube and muzzle devices to increas back pressure for SBRs? Didnt they have problems with short stroking? Also are you saying a piston isnt better for a 7 inch SBR? and a clean bcg is not a good thing?
So they didnt change the twist rate or chrome line the barrels or add M4 feed ramps? I know the basic design is the same but they did make improvements just like they did with piston systems. Why build a SCAR with a piston not DI if there isnt any benefit from a GP? What problems do the current piston systems have?
Why build a SCAR with a piston not DI if there isnt any benefit from a GP?
We're talking about AR platforms here, and the SCAR is not an AR platform.
The biggest problem with your argument is that the DI vs piston debate has raged ad nauseum here many, many times in the past. No sense in rehashing the same shit all over again.
Eurodriver
01-16-12, 17:37
Why did they make a pig tail/ spiral gas tube and muzzle devices to increas back pressure for SBRs? Didnt they have problems with short stroking? Also are you saying a piston isnt better for a 7 inch SBR? and a clean bcg is not a good thing?
So they didnt change the twist rate or chrome line the barrels or add M4 feed ramps? I know the basic design is the same but they did make improvements just like they did with piston systems. Why build a SCAR with a piston not DI if there isnt any benefit from a GP? What problems do the current piston systems have?
Ahh. Got it. 7 inch SBR. The types who run those are perfect for piston conversions, and thats exactly who they market it towards.
DeltaSierra
01-16-12, 17:40
Why did they make a pig tail/ spiral gas tube and muzzle devices to increas back pressure for SBRs? Didnt they have problems with short stroking? Also are you saying a piston isnt better for a 7 inch SBR? and a clean bcg is not a good thing?
So they didnt change the twist rate or chrome line the barrels or add M4 feed ramps? I know the basic design is the same but they did make improvements just like they did with piston systems. Why build a SCAR with a piston not DI if there isnt any benefit from a GP? What problems do the current piston systems have?
You are comparing apples to oranges here, as well as demonstrating in an obvious manner that you don't know what you are talking about.
You really need to read more, post less - this topic has been covered many times here.
Also, you bringing up changes that were made to the M16/M4 has no bearing on this conversation, as it was I was directly referring to a op-rod driven rifle...
Ahh. Got it. 7 inch SBR. The types who run those are perfect for piston conversions, and thats exactly who they market it towards.
Reading my mind again, huh...?
PA PATRIOT
01-16-12, 18:17
Gentlemen,
Here is my reason for wanting to try out a Piston AR, I shoot dirty Russian steel cased ammo for training/plinking which cruds up the BCG and lower receiver in quick order.
Now I know someone is about to post that I should give up the Russian crap and buy M193 for my shooting needs, Problem solved. Well the problem is that I can afford to shoot the cheap stuff a lot and not so much the M193 due to cost.
So my reasoning is that a piston AR may operate for a longer duration without cleaning during those week long case and a half courses shooting dirty Russian made ammo.
Also to save money and afford more training I commute back and forth to training courses daily forgoing Hotel rooms. Some times its a two hour drive one way added to a solid eight to nine hours of shooting then tack on the two hour drive home.
The hope was to do less cleaning during the course or at Home and sleep more before heading back to the range each day.
Maybe my thinking is flawed but this Adams Arms built Melonite treated 16" complete piston upper cost me $449.99 shipped to my door and most of the better complete DI uppers were just short of that price. I decided to give it a try as I have never owned one and its never a bad thing to try something different.
If it works out Great! If not its no great loss as I will trade it in for another DI upper down the road.
I've built 5 rifles with complete AA midlength base uppers for myself and a few other people.
1 was older and apparently their barrels were different. The older one was heavy under the handguards and all of the newer Melonited barrels are thinner profile.
All of them function with zero issues since the first shot. Some of them have seen several thousand rounds and others only several hundred.
I have encountered 2 issues:
1. Carrier tilt. One of the uppers was placed on a well used complete lower receiver and it started to show light signs of carrier tilt. After about 200 rounds it seems to have worn away what it will and has not shown signs since. It is not wearing away significant amounts of the buffer tube so I don't really consider this a major issue.
2. CAM PIN GOUGING THE UPPER RECEIVER. OUT OF THE 5 THAT I'VE BUILT ONLY 1 OF THEM IS EXPERIENCING THIS. HOWEVER I DECIDED TO GET THE POF ROLLER CAM PIN FOR ALL OF THEM. PIECE OF MIND FOR ME. NOTE THAT THE GOUGING OF THE RECEIVER DID NOT CAUSE ANY MALFUNCTIONS.
The finish on all 5 of the uppers has been fine. Nothing to complain about. Maybe a bad batch went out.
I really like these uppers.
Here are 4 of them in a gangbang pic. The 5th one I built is almost a mirror image of the top FDE rifle.
My cam pin also gouged my upper. Adams carbine length upper in 5.56. It caught it bad enough to cause a couple malfunctions. Upper only has 60 rounds through it. I'll have to look into that roller cam.
Yeah, the lack of info on the "TDP" type stuff has me doubting I'll get the upper itself and rather the piston system to drop into my own setup
That's exactly what I did. The piston system itself is great, I can't speak for the rest of Adams Arms parts. I never had any sort of a carrier tilt issue, ultimately I just got tired of the extra weight and sold it off. If you NEED a piston, Adams Arms is definitely one of the better choices.
When I first got my adams arms upper, it was in basic trim, with a standard m4 handguard, no sights . I weighed it like that, just to see, and it came to just about 4.25 lbs. With my lmt lower, using the basic m4 collapsible stock and a set of buis's, I don't think it even reached 6.5lbs.
The piston system is heavier than a gas tube, sure, but I think I would shave more weight off by switching from a medium contour barrel to a lighter weight barrel. Even the STR stock I put on added weight, but some things are well worth a couple ounces.
Since the newbie dug up the post. What say you Phila? Keep it, or sell it?
SomeOtherGuy
10-22-12, 08:25
That's exactly what I did. The piston system itself is great, I can't speak for the rest of Adams Arms parts. I never had any sort of a carrier tilt issue, ultimately I just got tired of the extra weight and sold it off. If you NEED a piston, Adams Arms is definitely one of the better choices.
This strikes me as backward - if you get the complete upper the gas block is pinned, while if you get the add-on kit it's a clamp-on. Alignment and spacing of the parts is especially critical in a piston system, and with a complete upper you get that done by the factory with their warranty if it's wrong.
Opinions on Adam Arms Mid-length Piston Upper
My opinion: If you want a piston gun, get one that was designed as such from the ground up. That would mean something like an FN SCAR, HK93, etc. There are just way too many reports of piston designs failing for me to have faith in one. I did own a CMMG piston upper. It locked up solid after 3 rounds. CMMG rebuilt it for free and I sent it on down the road.
DeltaSierra
10-22-12, 18:00
That would mean something like an FN SCAR, HK93, etc.
HK93 is a roller locked, so try again...
Magic_Salad0892
10-22-12, 19:35
HK93 is a roller locked, so try again...
I had a "wait a minute..." moment when I saw that too.
PA PATRIOT
10-25-12, 15:27
Since the newbie dug up the post. What say you Phila? Keep it, or sell it?
I have shot the piss out of my Adams Arms 16" piston upper using nothing but Wolf .223 H/P ammo and so far no issues. I have not clean the upper since the first customary cleaning out of the box and she is still running strong.
Pluses,
Runs well
Inside upper/lower receiver has minimal fouling
Minimal lubing required
No signs of excessive wear
Dislikes,
I still think on the base model the upper receiver coating is a bit cheap but barrel and bolt which are Melonite treated look great.
I called A/A and asked if my upper receiver could be Melonite treated because I was not happy with the current coating and I should have a answer in the next day what they are going to do.
4.0 stars out of 5.0 because of the upper receiver finish but if A/A refinishes it for me in Melonite it will earn a extra star and a buy recommendation.
shot the piss out of = about how many rounds. Sounds like a great review. I'm gonna get one.
I called A/A and asked if my upper receiver could be Melonite treated because I was not happy with the current coating and I should have a answer in the next day what they are going to do. The answer will be, you cannot. You cannot melonite aluminum.
Received my Adams Arms complete mid-length piston upper back yesterday from the manufacturer and it appears they completely replaced the unit. This one is in much better condition then the one I received from Midway which I now strongly feel was a return they sold as new.
The reason I feel the unit was a resold return was the bolt and flash suppressor had carbon deposits and the finish showed contact marks that it had be mounted to a lower receiver.
Now these marks could have occurred when Adams Arms test fired the unit after assembly but the replacement upper displayed none of the carbon or wear signs the old unit did.
So I give Adams Arms good marks for fully replacing the unit with new but I still have to give failing grades on being able to contact their customer service and the lack of contacting you back when they promise to do so.
Also I requested to purchase a MagPul Mid-length MOE forearm from Adams Arms and to have it fitted by them to replaced the standard set supplied on the upper. Matt agreed and stated it would be done, but I received the unit back wearing the standard set. I was not charged so its more of a inconvenience of them not following through with a parts replacement order.
I post a review once I have a chance to test fire the upper.
I ordered a sparc from Midway, that was obviously a return, they sold as new. It had scratches on the front lens, a big gouge on the battery cover, and wear on the turret o rings, one was actually cut in half. You could also see tool marks on the hex key of one of the mounts, proving to me, that it was indeed mounted to someones weapon, returned, then sold to me. I called Midway, but decided to just send it in for warranty to Vortex , to avoid getting another return, or who knows what. Needless to say, I will never do business with midway again.
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j258/pizzled/HPR11.jpg
http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j258/pizzled/HPR21.jpg
Adams Arms midlength upper on an LMT lower receiver.
So far, this rifle has been perfect. It is light, less than 7 lbs - piston and all, and it loves to make nice, neat little groups with 70 grain otm ammo.
I know there is a lot of hate for the piston designs around here. Part of the reason I mainly stick to my 1911forum. According to many here, AR's aren't meant to be anything other than DI, shoulda bought a rifle that is "supposed" to be piston driven, etc,. People get kinda nasty about it, telling others that they are wasting their money, stuff like that. I would have thought that with all the tinkerers minds on these forums, there would be more support for people who want to find out which piston system works best.
Well, I think that the system on my rifle is exactly how my rifle is supposed be. It is not too heavy. I would have gotten a lighter barrel if that was a problem. More weight there than the piston adds. The midlength recoil impulse feels sweet and the rifle is as accurate as any other I have shot.
We're talking about AR platforms here, and the SCAR is not an AR platform.
The biggest problem with your argument is that the DI vs piston debate has raged ad nauseum here many, many times in the past. No sense in rehashing the same shit all over again.
I guess that the Marine Corps is wrong as well since they are changing over to an H&K M27 with a gas piston system that passed all of their tests and has now deployed to Afghanistan with great success, and will now be their new battle rifle. Also the Army is conducting testing now for a possible M4 replacement and the ADCOR BEaR a gas piston rifle is tied with the #1 carbine and may be selected as the M4 replacement (the Army may scrap the program now with the budget problems) but I don't think the hardcore testing the Army and Marine Corps put these weapons systems through can be wrong so I guess that means your argument is fatally flawed from lack of knowledge or the entire ground fighting force of the United States Military is wrong and you are correct. Somehow I doubt that very much. Oh and the Special Operations Community has been using gas piston rifles for a long time, so once again I go with the Military and not you. Thanks, and I was in the Army for 15 years and I work at the base where this testing is happening.
Littlelebowski
05-11-13, 06:15
I guess that the Marine Corps is wrong as well since they are changing over to an H&K M27 with a gas piston system that passed all of their tests and has now deployed to Afghanistan with great success, and will now be their new battle rifle. Also the Army is conducting testing now for a possible M4 replacement and the ADCOR BEaR a gas piston rifle is tied with the #1 carbine and may be selected as the M4 replacement (the Army may scrap the program now with the budget problems) but I don't think the hardcore testing the Army and Marine Corps put these weapons systems through can be wrong so I guess that means your argument is fatally flawed from lack of knowledge or the entire ground fighting force of the United States Military is wrong and you are correct. Somehow I doubt that very much. Oh and the Special Operations Community has been using gas piston rifles for a long time, so once again I go with the Military and not you. Thanks, and I was in the Army for 15 years and I work at the base where this testing is happening.
So many factually incorrect statements.....
PA PATRIOT
05-11-13, 11:23
shot the piss out of = about how many rounds. Sounds like a great review. I'm gonna get one.
My log shows 5,800 fired by me and I lent it out twice to guys who had a parts failure on their AR's at classes and it seen another 960rds fired but them.
Of these rounds 4300rds were Russian Wolf and Tulammo .223 55gr and the remainder was a 5.56 mix of M-193 and M-855.
The rife had seven failures to feed which was traced to two damaged magazines, twenty four failures to fire which was a bad 500rd lot of Tulammo and nine failures to extract were the extractor ripped through the rim on some more Tulammo. (I no longer will buy Tulammo .223 but the 7.62x39 is still GTG)
Gun related failures so far have been one were a firing pin tip broke and had to be replaced.
If I could find another A/A piston upper at the same price I paid for this one I would add another if not two for future builds.
sinlessorrow
05-11-13, 13:09
I guess that the Marine Corps is wrong as well since they are changing over to an H&K M27 with a gas piston system that passed all of their tests and has now deployed to Afghanistan with great success, and will now be their new battle rifle. Also the Army is conducting testing now for a possible M4 replacement and the ADCOR BEaR a gas piston rifle is tied with the #1 carbine and may be selected as the M4 replacement (the Army may scrap the program now with the budget problems) but I don't think the hardcore testing the Army and Marine Corps put these weapons systems through can be wrong so I guess that means your argument is fatally flawed from lack of knowledge or the entire ground fighting force of the United States Military is wrong and you are correct. Somehow I doubt that very much. Oh and the Special Operations Community has been using gas piston rifles for a long time, so once again I go with the Military and not you. Thanks, and I was in the Army for 15 years and I work at the base where this testing is happening.
Where in gods name did you get your information from? BEAR being number 1...dont make me laugh.
BufordTJustice
05-11-13, 14:16
Purely from a shooter's perspective, I have not shot a piston AR that has the same smooth recoil impulse as a quality DI AR. Period. Ever. In fact, it's not even close.
If somebody is going to train for true proficiency and minimizing shot-to-shot splits, then a DI AR is STILL the only way to go.
My BCM 14.5" middy w/ Vltor A5 recoil system and LMT e-carrier shoots smoother than most DI AR's....and it made the last piston AR I shot (an AA carbine gas system) feel like I was shooting an AK74.
That's enough for me right there....a "better" gun that has a more pronounced, sharper recoil impulse and more overall gun movement.....and I've shot every major brand of piston AR to include: CMMG, Bushmaster, POF, LWRC, Osprey, Adams Arms, & Stag.
I'll keep my 100%-reliable-after-shooting-1200-rounds-with-no-lube-added BCM, thank you very much. And my smoother recoil impulse. And my reduced muzzle rise....and my reduced overall gun movement.
Had an Adams Arms Tactical Elite upper. Ran right at 6500 rounds through it. Had the rod break within the 1st 500 rounds. They replaced the rod, never had an issue after that. Gave the upper to my Son-in-Law when he returned from Afghanistan. I believe he has 1500+ rounds without issue.
Purely from a shooter's perspective, I have not shot a piston AR that has the same smooth recoil impulse as a quality DI AR. Period. Ever. In fact, it's not even close.
If somebody is going to train for true proficiency and minimizing shot-to-shot splits, then a DI AR is STILL the only way to go.
My BCM 14.5" middy w/ Vltor A5 recoil system and LMT e-carrier shoots smoother than most DI AR's....and it made the last piston AR I shot (an AA carbine gas system) feel like I was shooting an AK74.
That's enough for me right there....a "better" gun that has a more pronounced, sharper recoil impulse and more overall gun movement.....and I've shot every major brand of piston AR to include: CMMG, Bushmaster, POF, LWRC, Osprey, Adams Arms, & Stag.
I'll keep my 100%-reliable-after-shooting-1200-rounds-with-no-lube-added BCM, thank you very much. And my smoother recoil impulse. And my reduced muzzle rise....and my reduced overall gun movement.
Ok, I'll play. ;)
1. Can you quantify the split differences? .01? .02? Will the split differences matter?
2. What is the time of your first shot with the different systems? That is, after all, the most important time to be concerned with in my opinion.
3. What is the gun movement you are talking about? Increased muzzle rise; at what distance and cadence will that start to matter? Can you quantify where/when increased muzzle rise matters?
4. 1200 rounds without lube? I then ask what the point is. This whole doesn't need lube thing has gotten way out of hand. I wonder how it started. I always use lube on my gun.
I shoot 1.5-1.6 sec bill drills with my HK416, from 7 yards. I shoot 1.6-1.7 sec 2x2x2 drills. Usually my first shot is in the 0.6-08 sec range at 5-7 meters, and about 1 sec at 20 meters. When shooting half and half drills, I usually get 3 shots off in the first second at 5 meters. I shoot El Prez drills at just over 8 secs. With all good hits. Out to 300-350 meters I have a high probability of a first round hit on torso size stationary target.
All in full gear; helmet, LBE etc.
Many guys here would probably smoke me though :(
My point is still this; basically, the arguments listed here are mostly about minutia. I think the supposed negtives in an op-rod system are highly exaggerated when it comes to shooting the gun, and that shooter skill and technique matter more than the operating mechanism in an AR platform.
I don't think that my times are going to miraculously get a whole lot better if I started shooting a DI gun. I would probably see more improvements if I shot more. I know that I can shoot faster if I would just start to accept groups that are a tiny bit bigger. My target to target splits would be closer to my shot to shot splits if I shot more target transition drills.
BufordTJustice
05-11-13, 19:33
Ok, I'll play. ;)
1. Can you quantify the split differences? .01? .02? Will the split differences matter?
2. What is the time of your first shot with the different systems? That is, after all, the most important time to be concerned with in my opinion.
3. What is the gun movement you are talking about? Increased muzzle rise; at what distance and cadence will that start to matter? Can you quantify where/when increased muzzle rise matters?
4. 1200 rounds without lube? I then ask what the point is. This whole doesn't need lube thing has gotten way out of hand. I wonder how it started. I always use lube on my gun.
I shoot 1.5-1.6 sec bill drills with my HK416, from 7 yards. I shoot 1.6-1.7 sec 2x2x2 drills. Usually my first shot is in the 0.6-08 sec range at 5-7 meters, and about 1 sec at 20 meters. When shooting half and half drills, I usually get 3 shots off in the first second at 5 meters. I shoot El Prez drills at just over 8 secs. With all good hits. Out to 300-350 meters I have a high probability of a first round hit on torso size stationary target.
All in full gear; helmet, LBE etc.
Many guys here would probably smoke me though :(
My point is still this; basically, the arguments listed here are mostly about minutia. I think the supposed negtives in an op-rod system are highly exaggerated when it comes to shooting the gun, and that shooter skill and technique matter more than the operating mechanism in an AR platform.
I don't think that my times are going to miraculously get a whole lot better if I started shooting a DI gun. I would probably see more improvements if I shot more. I know that I can shoot faster if I would just start to accept groups that are a tiny bit bigger. My target to target splits would be closer to my shot to shot splits if I shot more target transition drills.
Game on. :)
1) The split times will vary based on distance to the target. I.e. you can shoot faster at a target that is closer to you. I use my buddy's shot timer, so I don't have exact split times for you right now. FASTER IS FASTER. I take any tenth or hundredth of a second in a gunfight. I'm not sure how much (if any) time I'll be given by my adversary so every little bit helps. It's why practice my draw so much for my G21 service handgun.
2) Since the piston guns I have shot were noticeably more front heavy than my BCM, DI wins here as well for me. Again, I don't have exact splits for you right now. Back to rule #1: Faster is Faster.
3) I can dream up about a billion different gun fight situations where overall gun movement, smoothness of recoil impulse, and muzzle rise have an effect on the outcome of the fight. Here are some general examples: shooting without a rest (i.e. standing/kneeling) and shooting from improvised field positions (reduced leverage to drive the gun). This encompasses the vast majority of the positions I would utilize in order to maximize my use of cover as an LEO. Moving quickly and snap shooting....maybe while moving as well.
You are a good shooter and I have watched your videos so I know you're not speaking from ego. However, what happens when I must punch through cover (i.e. a vehicle) to kill an armed adversary at 50+ yards while I'm standing? This is the exact scenario that I could face. My pistol is my reactionary weapon and is most likely to be used at short distances while on patrol. My carbine gets deployed when I have had at least a second or two to run to my trunk and snatch my bag while I run to cover/staging."
Making multiple, effective hits on a man sized target from 50 yards with a greatly elevated heartrate, while standing or moving, and while my target may or may not be moving, I'll take as little gun movement as possible during the firing cycle since I'll be imparting plenty of my own gun movement due to the circumstances. :blink: I had my dot on a crazy guy's chest/forehead while he was wearing a flak vest and holding a knife. As part of the contact team who was moving toward him, I might have had to take a shot at any point in time. A lighter gun makes it easier to hold on target and faster to present to the target (I'm a 5'10", 240lb weightlifter...I'm not lacking in the strength department).
I spend most of my time shooting at 15 yards and out. My splits at 15 are typically in the 1.7-1.9 range. If I practiced more, I'm sure I could be faster as well. I agree on that and think it goes without saying.
To confront your questions at their most basic level: when would I want less muzzle control in rapid fire, more muzzle movement, more gun movement, and a sharper recoil impulse (without an increase in terminal performance, i.e.e a step up in caliber)?
The answer to those questions would be: never, never, never, and never. ;)
The fact is, you are more likely to win in a gunfight when your gun shoots smoother, has less muzzle movement, and less overall gun movement.
EDIT: I'll also add that when I notice a marked increase in muzzle and gun movement, I can only imagine how much more movement there would be for a smaller statured individual, much less for my 5'3" 120lb wife.
BufordTJustice
05-11-13, 19:36
Also, Arctic1, you're using an HK416 IIRC. That's got a heavier buffer, heavier action spring, and a gun that was designed to be the best piston system that could be fit in the AR size envelope.
It's been a long time since I shot one, and I did not A-B it with my own carbine...but I recall it having a smoother recoil impulse than most piston guns I've shot. Kudos to HK and to you for being able to shoot one. But, seeing that only LE agencies can buy actual HK 416's in the US right now, that's a moot point for a US citizen.
PA PATRIOT
05-11-13, 20:15
Honestly I think my 16" A/A Middy balances just as nicely when compared to my 16" DI Middy with identical furniture and optics.
As to recoil /muzzle rise I use a Springco White with H-1 buffers in both and really don't have any issues time or accuracy wise during drills. Now everyone else's results may vary using different piston set-ups but for me its a non issue either way I go.
Magic_Salad0892
05-11-13, 21:34
I guess that the Marine Corps is wrong as well since they are changing over to an H&K M27 with a gas piston system that passed all of their tests and has now deployed to Afghanistan with great success, and will now be their new battle rifle. Also the Army is conducting testing now for a possible M4 replacement and the ADCOR BEaR a gas piston rifle is tied with the #1 carbine and may be selected as the M4 replacement (the Army may scrap the program now with the budget problems) but I don't think the hardcore testing the Army and Marine Corps put these weapons systems through can be wrong so I guess that means your argument is fatally flawed from lack of knowledge or the entire ground fighting force of the United States Military is wrong and you are correct. Somehow I doubt that very much. Oh and the Special Operations Community has been using gas piston rifles for a long time, so once again I go with the Military and not you. Thanks, and I was in the Army for 15 years and I work at the base where this testing is happening.
Great first post, bro. Care to quantify any of that?
Where in gods name did you get your information from? BEAR being number 1...dont make me laugh.
First I did not say it was #1 I said it was tied and it is currently #2 out of the top 3 unless they cut the program which is a good possibility. Maybe you should do some research before you make a comment. Here is a link to an article that shows the contract award to H&K for the Marine Corps for all of you who think I don't know what I am talking about do research and also know who you are talking to first. Thanks. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22946 check out that article as you see H&K was awarded the Marine Corps rifle contract for the next 5 years. If you do some research you can find articles that show the ADCOR BEaR is in the top 3 for the Army contract as well. If you need more proof I will provide a link for the Army contract as well. Any other questions? Oh and I wasn't kidding about my service or where I work either so I happen to have quite a bit of knowledge about the Army contract so to the guy who said so many incorrect facts maybe not I think!
So many factually incorrect statements.....
Here you go ace! Here is the link to an article that shows the H&K award for the Marine Corps rifles for the next 5 years. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22946. And if you really need the article showing the ADCOR BEaR in the Top 3 for the Army testing to replace the M4 I can provide that as well. It's really not that hard to research all of this on the Internet just google both and you can find them. I really don't appreciate someone saying that I don't know what I am talking about when I actually do. I also work at the Army's research and development base where the program is on going right now. I will not comment on where that is or the name of the base but I am sure with some research you can figure it out too. If you need me to do some more research for you I will post the Army article as well. Please don't question my intelligence when you don't even know me. Next time just ask nicely and I will give you the info you need. 15 years US Army with 3 tours in Iraq and multiple tours to Southeast and Southwest Asia. I was also wounded in 2009 which is why I didn't do 20 years. I do enjoy my new job though helping to design Ammunition for the Army (hint)!
sinlessorrow
05-11-13, 22:26
First I did not say it was #1 I said it was tied and it is currently #2 out of the top 3 unless they cut the program which is a good possibility. Maybe you should do some research before you make a comment. Here is a link to an article that shows the contract award to H&K for the Marine Corps for all of you who think I don't know what I am talking about do research and also know who you are talking to first. Thanks. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22946 check out that article as you see H&K was awarded the Marine Corps rifle contract for the next 5 years. If you do some research you can find articles that show the ADCOR BEaR is in the top 3 for the Army contract as well. If you need more proof I will provide a link for the Army contract as well. Any other questions? Oh and I wasn't kidding about my service or where I work either so I happen to have quite a bit of knowledge about the Army contract so to the guy who said so many incorrect facts maybe not I think!
Please post a link about ADCOR being in the Top 3 please, I have not seen this and it is a big claim so evidence is always nice.
Your link on the M27 is just that....The IAR. It is basically the new BAR meant to supplement the SAW. I believe They only purchased 6,500.
I think if you people do the research there are pluses and minuses for each system so it just depends on what you want out of a rifle and whatever your personal preferences may be. I personally do not own a piston AR only 2 DI AR's that I built myself. I enjoy the work I do and I feel privileged to be able to help the men and women of the US Army get better ammunition so they can ultimately be safer and get a better round to hit ratio. I do not wish to argue about things with people who don't want to do any research about subjects. I wasn't trying to start a fight or have everyone question what I was saying just posting something I know about to show that the Military is moving towards piston rifles with the Marines now using them and it looks like the Army just going with the M4A1 now which is still better than the M4. If the budget was there we may get a new Army rifle as well but it looks like it will not be and we will be moving forward with the M4A1 which will be provided by Remington. I was just throwing I. Some info for everyone to check out not for everyone to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. I am finished now so will not post about piston rifles anymore. Just trying to put a point of view out there. Do the research and find out for yourselves. I for one don't care and as I said I use DI rifles.
Please post a link about ADCOR being in the Top 3 please, I have not seen this and it is a big claim so evidence is always nice.
Your link on the M27 is just that....The IAR. It is basically the new BAR meant to supplement the SAW. I believe They only purchased 6,500.
I understand that but I was just showing that the Marines bought a piston rifle and are using it now. Which as you can see is correct. I am all done since everyone has given me such a warm welcome
I think I will no longer post on this thread. Google the Army M4 replacement testing and you can find it for yourself. Pretty easy. I believe it was either written up in American Rifleman or Gun Digest among other places. It can be found by searching for the Army M4 program as well. Not that difficult. I wanted to thank everyone for the warm welcome.
sinlessorrow
05-11-13, 22:40
I understand that but I was just showing that the Marines bought a piston rifle and are using it now. Which as you can see is correct. I am all done since everyone has given me such a warm welcome
I think I will no longer post on this thread. Google the Army M4 replacement testing and you can find it for yourself. Pretty easy. I believe it was either written up in American Rifleman or Gun Digest among other places. It can be found by searching for the Army M4 program as well. Not that difficult. I wanted to thank everyone for the warm welcome.
So no link? I have tried searching and I can find no information that says anything about the Top 3 rifles, last thing I can find was who made it to phase II and that was 6 manuf. I will give them a shot to see what I can find. A link would still be helpful.
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