View Full Version : Shooting suppressed without ear protection
I was reading the AAC Mini4 suppressor thread and was interested to see that people are shooting their AR's suppressed without earpro.
I won't even deploy my can if I've got ears on. No sense in wearing on the baffle stack with no gain.
Is that common? I just ordered an AAC SDN-6 but was not thinking I could shoot it without ear protection on a auto-loading rifle without risking hearing loss. I going off the idea that OSHA limit for impulse noise is 140db and most can tests show sound pressure levels at the ear over 140db for pretty much every can out there. So what am I missing? Are you guys just saying f*ck it and shooting without earpro?
CleverNickname
11-20-11, 15:29
I'll shoot .300 BLK subsonic without earpro, but anything supersonic gets ear protection.
QuietShootr
11-20-11, 17:55
I shoot my Gemtech TPR-S without ear protection.
SPR-M4 is ok without, but usually I wear some plugs just because I'm deaf enough already.
Raven Armament
11-20-11, 18:12
Supersonic suppressed will never be hearing safe as the bullet in flight still breaks the SPL threshold for permanent damage for impulse noise.
For supersonic suppressed, wear additional hearing protection.
For subsonic suppressed, your suppressor should be enough.
So its just people that are risking their hearing that are shooting semi-auto carbines suppressed without earpro.
:(
If I have to wear ear protection for a .223 carbine whether I’m shooting a huge quiet can or small loud can what is the draw of the quiet cans? Is the 5 db difference at the muzzle translate much to big differences in the other benefits of a suppressor? ( aka reduced recoil, lower muzzle blast, low dust signature and difficulty locating the direction of fire.) To me that changes the value equation for suppressors in general as well as what suppressor to buy. It also explains the attention the new 300blk is getting although a 220grain bullet at 900fps sounds a lot like a 45acp +p ballistics to me.
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/armorgod/AACMini4onSR1524Jun11.jpg
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/armorgod/AACM4-2000onSR1524Jun11.jpg
So its just people that are risking their hearing that are shooting semi-auto carbines suppressed without earpro.
:(
Yeah. It also depends on the outdoor conditions on any given day. Sometimes my suppressed AR is uncomfortable to shoot... Other days it's not noticeable at all.
If you get out front and to the side of a guy shooting a suppressed AR, It's FRIGGIN LOUD. It hurts my ears for sure.
If I have to wear ear protection for a .223 carbine whether I’m shooting a huge quiet can or small loud can what is the draw of the quiet cans?
Is the 5 db difference at the muzzle translate much to big differences in the other benefits of a suppressor? ( aka reduced recoil, lower muzzle blast, low dust signature and difficulty locating the direction of fire.)
To me that changes the value equation for suppressors in general as well as what suppressor to buy. It also explains the attention the new 300blk is getting although a 220grain bullet at 900fps sounds a lot like a 45acp +p ballistics to me.
Suppressors on an AR are not "quiet" but the difference is noticeable between one that brings the noise down to the lower 130's vs higher 130's (though not much if any to the shooter since it's going to be louder at the ejection port than the muzzle. A difference of 10 dB is perceived as twice as loud so if you get a MINI (AAC or SF), you give up suppression for weight and length. I would only get the MICRO if added length is #1 on your priority list.
As far as 300 BLK vs .45ACP goes, you get a shoulder fired weapon that can use high capacity mags which to me is worth it. Just gotta wait for factory subsonic expanding ammo.
Mr. Goodtimes
11-21-11, 11:04
I was super hot to go on a can, as in absolutely had to have one; until a shot a couple. The rifles are still loud a ****, adds length and weight, costs money, increases recoil over using a muzzle brake, spits shit back in my face (left handed) and I have to wait months to actually receive it.
I'll still eventually get a suppressor but in the mean time some decent hearing protection is going to be fine for me.
Dolphinvet
11-21-11, 11:05
My MK760 with a Mossad II suppressor is fairly quiet outside, especially with sub-sonic ammo. I can shoot it without ear protection and feel no pain. My AR with a 10 1/2" bbl and the YHM stainless suppressor, well, not so much. I wear plugs when I fire it.
militarymoron
11-21-11, 11:13
If I have to wear ear protection for a .223 carbine whether I’m shooting a huge quiet can or small loud can what is the draw of the quiet cans?
shooting without earpro isn't the main purpose for which .223 cans are designed for.
I was reading the AAC Mini4 suppressor thread and was interested to see that people are shooting their AR's suppressed without earpro.
It's possible they already have hearing loss and it's less noticeable to them.
You --will-- have hearing loss from anything that loud.
Raven Armament
11-21-11, 13:36
It also explains the attention the new 300blk is getting although a 220grain bullet at 900fps sounds a lot like a 45acp +p ballistics to me.
Big difference is the .45 ACP has a ballistic coefficient of .130-.165-ish with hollow points (XTP used for example because the Hornady manual was on my desk) and the .30 caliber 220gr SMK has a BC of .608 (Sierra's site reference). Huge difference in external ballistics resulting in increased effective range, accuracy, and terminal ballistics at extended range (200y) for the cartridge.
What? Huh? ... :laugh:
An AR-15 can have a lot of port noise so, hearing protection is important if you care to preserve what's left.
Then there are the other folks who may not have a good suppressor or any suppressor at all. Ear plugs with a suppressor is nicer then ear plugs and muffs without.
Ear plugs with a suppressor is nicer then ear plugs and muffs without.
Good earplugs properly worn reduce sound 33 db. There'd be no need to run the can and put wear on it and filthy up your weapon. :confused:
If I'm wearing ear pro, the can comes off.
The only thing I will shoot without ear pro is subsonic .22lr with a can. I can barely pass a hearing test already due to the amount of hearing damage Ive taken over the years around helicopters and firearms. My advice is to wear plugs outdoors and double up with muffs at the slightest hint of discomfort (guy next to you shooting a rifle with a brake for example..) Suppressed bolt guns arent bad as long as you are the shooter behind them, but suppressed ARs arent hearing safe regardless of suppressor design.
but suppressed ARs arent hearing safe regardless of suppressor design.
Yeah... that snap out of the ejection port will get your right ear for sure. It's worse the shorter the barrel too.
You can almost get hearing safe on a 20 inch rifle. But who shoots a gun that long?
Good earplugs properly worn reduce sound 33 db. There'd be no need to run the can and put wear on it and filthy up your weapon. :confused:
As noted above there are other reasons to use your suppressor. On a square range, sure I'll take my can off. On the farm, the muted report away from myself is what I want.
Big difference is the .45 ACP has a ballistic coefficient of .130-.165-ish with hollow points (XTP used for example because the Hornady manual was on my desk) and the .30 caliber 220gr SMK has a BC of .608 (Sierra's site reference). Huge difference in external ballistics resulting in increased effective range, accuracy, and terminal ballistics at extended range (200y) for the cartridge.
This is the big difference.
Yeah... that snap out of the ejection port will get your right ear for sure. It's worse the shorter the barrel too.
You can almost get hearing safe on a 20 inch rifle. But who shoots a gun that long?
Ive been known to on occasion, although its usually a 10" or 14.5" gun that I take out...:D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v669/nf9648/Guns/WP_000115.jpg
Good earplugs properly worn reduce sound 33 db.
AAC website has the M4-2000 at a 32-34 db reduction. What is the difference between using the suppressor or plugs? I do notice a difference between my 10.5" and my 18" AR suppressed.
Jk
AAC website has the M4-2000 at a 32-34 db reduction. What is the difference between using the suppressor or plugs? I do notice a difference between my 10.5" and my 18" AR suppressed.
Jk
33 dB reduction at the muzzle is much different than 33 dB reduction in your ear.
With no plugs and the can, you still have a lot of action noise and bullet flight noise.
Don Robison
11-27-11, 13:47
It's possible they already have hearing loss and it's less noticeable to them.
You --will-- have hearing loss from anything that loud.
I shoot suppressed with no hearing protection on occasion, but I don't recommend it. I already have two hearing aids so how much more can it do? :eek:
AAC website has the M4-2000 at a 32-34 db reduction. What is the difference between using the suppressor or plugs?
I don't know where they're metering. I can guarantee a properly worn set of orange plugs is monumentally quieter than any 556 can I've ever heard.
Not having to wear ear pro is near the very bottom of my reasons for owning suppressors. There's a ton of reasons for them, real world and recreational, that can be found here on M4C.
As MarkM said, plugs do more than any can...because plugs block anything making noise from going into your ear at full blast.
The can suppresses the muzzle report of the rifle...not all of the loud shit that occurs when you fire a rifle. I wear hearing protection if for no other reason than the fact that it can't hurt. I mean, they're your ears. Do with them as you wish and hold out for an ear transplant.
I know a semi will be louder because of the action, but what about a bolt gun. Does anyone know what the sonic crack meters at?
Jk
I know a semi will be louder because of the action, but what about a bolt gun. Does anyone know what the sonic crack meters at?
Jk
Depends where you put the metering device. WOW! We've stood down range of a guy firing a supressed rifle.... and it hurts your ears.
I'm talking 20 yards out front and off to the side of the weapon.
Depends where you put the metering device. WOW! We've stood down range of a guy firing a supressed rifle.... and it hurts your ears.
I'm talking 20 yards out front and off to the side of the weapon.
The flight noise of a .308 is c. 150 dB measured 1m from the flight path.
With regards to bolt action rifles, yes they are quieter at the shooters ear as there is no noise from the ejection port.
With regards to 5.56 mm assault rifles and carbines, a couple of suppressed reference numbers from our testing, right handed shooter, right ear:
- M4 carbine 14.5", c.142-145 dB
- HK416 10", c. 139-140 dB
- HK416 14.5", c. 136-138 dB
At the left ear the figures are lower, c. 131-136 dB for all of the above weapons.
So we are looking at c. 12-20 dB net sound suppression at the right ear and 25-28 dB at the left ear
(156-159 dB unsuppressed at both ears )
Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
Yeah... you can definitely tell the right ear catches the most noise. The gas snap at the ejection port is just at the point where it's starting to hurt your ear a little.
I know a semi will be louder because of the action, but what about a bolt gun. Does anyone know what the sonic crack meters at?
Jk
Here's a general reference for bullet flight noise versus velocity...
It shows clearly why any rifle with supersonic ammo will never be quiet... and why there is a low end limit for overall sound levels you can achieve.
Even with the best cans eliminating 90% of the muzzle blast noise, you still are getting right around 140 dB from the bullet itself...
This is why i don't consider ANY suppressed supersonic guns to be hearing safe. At best, they are hearing SAFER.
Important to note that that does not erase all the other benefits to a can. And 135-140dB is A LOT quieter than 165+ dB.
http://guns.connect.fi/rs/bulnoise.GIF
Jason, to further comment on your post, it is the muzzle blast that is causing the hearing damage to the shooter, not the flight noise to the shooters front.
And that can be very effectively suppressed with modern suppressor designs.
There is an ongoing thread on this over at AR15.com as well and once I get the permission, I will post the details and graphs from an extensive sound suppression test conducted here some years back.
They had meters at the shooters ear and at varying distances 360 degrees around the shooter.
markm, in a sense the human ear is a pretty good meter, so when you start experiencing that, it is usually an indication that you are going over 140 dB.
Regards!
Tuukka Jokinen
Ase Utra sound suppressors
markm, in a sense the human ear is a pretty good meter, so when you start experiencing that, it is usually an indication that you are going over 140 dB.
Makes sense. And when you're off the gun, next to or behind the shooter, there's no discomfort from the can or the supersonice projectile.
I'm new to suppressors, got an M4-2000 recently and just yesterday I was shooting suppressed. (I've been trying to make Sundays my range days.)
Anyway I shot suppressed with ear pro, without ear pro and then without the suppressor mounted. The differences are very noticeable, especially on a 10.5" gun.
It's good to know that if I had to shoot suppressed without ear protection than I can without destroying my hearing but since it's training, I see no reason not have my earplugs in.
The differences are very noticeable, especially on a 10.5" gun.
It's good to know that if I had to shoot suppressed without ear protection than I can without destroying my hearing but since it's training, I see no reason not have my earplugs in.
My approach is different. I won't even shoot my can on anything shorter than 14.5 because the port noise hurts my right ear.
Thanks for posting that chart Jason.
Anyone who has ever pulled targets on a highpower style range will know that even at 600yards a 77 or 80gr SMK is loud enough to hurt.
I value my long-term hearing. Suppressed doesn't = quiet.
Does this thread make anyone ask the question why do I need a suppressor?
Sure there are som that are heavily trained and into competitions and do a lot of shooting where there is value to the suppressor that outweigh the huge negatives.
But there is a niche for the 11.5" AR non-suppressed with a pair of e-muffs QD'd, its a fine choice to keep the barrel short and the weight low and forgo the silencer. Honestly 90% jumping on the SBR + suppressor bandwagon aren't really thinking it thru and just copying something OSHA influenced the feds into.
Does this thread make anyone ask the question why do I need a suppressor?
Nope... For me it is not about need. I wanted it, so I got it. It's that simple. I sure don't need a belt fed, but I would have one if I could afford it.
Jk
Wormydog1724
12-04-11, 14:56
I recently got the AAC SPR/M4 for my AR's. I have it on a 16" barrel with the SPR/M4 Brakeout, and on an 18" barrel with the SPR/M4 Blackout. The 18" AR seems way quieter than the 16'. I'm not entirely sure if its the extra 2" of barrel or the different suppressor attachments, (brakeout vs blackout). I shoot the 18" comfortably without ear pro for a few mags with no ringing or any side affects that I can tell (although there may still be some hearing damage due to the action). Switch to the 16" and after one mag I'm reaching for my SF plugs. I hate having to wear plugs after spending so much on a can and stamp, but my hearing is kinda important to me. My wife hates repeating herself and I hate saying 'huh?' all the time as it is already.
My next step is to get a 11.5" or 12.5" SBR. I already know I will have to wear some type of plugs or muffs with it even with the can on, and I think I'm ok with that. I have an AAC Element pending for the really quiet fun stuff.
A62Rambler
12-04-11, 18:39
I guess the reason I shoot a suppressor is for hunting. I can handle one shot suppressed without pain. I can't hunt well if I can't hear a twig snap etc... I also have suppressors for the fun factor, I admit. My subsonic 22 lr loads are so quiet I can shoot all day without plugs. My 30-221 is the same with subsonic. With supersonic loads I still use the suppressor but wear ear plugs. If I am shooting with no suppressor I wear ear plugs and ear muffs. I was blessed with tinitis courtesy of years of shooting for my uncle sam, LE, and on my own without any protection and am trying to keep what little hearing I have left. Of course, people also listen to music at levels that does as much or more damage to their hearing and think nothing of it. One concert can do damage that lasts a lifetime and that is considered cool. :confused:
Need? Need has nothing to do with it. Since I got my first can I have wondered why I didn't get one long ago. When I shoot while hunting, my brother can never tell if it was me shooting or someone way off in the distance as it seems to hide where the shot is coming from. It also seems to have the same effect on game as I've shot one dear and had others walk up as if nothing had happened so I have no regrets about spending the money and plan to add two to three more cans to the three I already have.
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