View Full Version : Semi-auto?
Just a random general question... For most of this carbine / AR community, is it mostly all geared for semi-automatics? I was watching some of the magpul dynamic vids and all rifles on there seem to be semi. Is the carbine used by LEO's (patrol rifle) and civilians mostly always running semi-auto only?
Where and when would you like to see the application of full-auto fire?
Nightvisionary
11-20-11, 18:47
Just a random general question... For most of this carbine / AR community, is it mostly all geared for semi-automatics? I was watching some of the magpul dynamic vids and all rifles on there seem to be semi. Is the carbine used by LEO's (patrol rifle) and civilians mostly always running semi-auto only?
All rifles and carbines whether military, police, or civilian are mostly run on semi.
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-11, 18:53
Full auto = full retard.
It may look cool and all, but auto fire is inherently inaccurate compared to well aimed and controlled single fire shots.
Full auto = full retard.
It may look cool and all, but auto fire is inherently inaccurate compared to well aimed and controlled single fire shots.
This. There is a time and place for it, but I highly doubt I'd ever need it in my life.
I have however shot full and burst Ars. It's fun to be be able to say I've done it, but I've never trained with it and honestly it's annoying (to me).
I had the oppurtunity to shoot a full-auto suppressed SCAR in 308 today. I passed, looking at it was enough for me.
TunaFisherman
11-20-11, 19:02
There is a video somewhere on youtube that shows the big disadvantage of full auto vs. semi. Showed how hard it is to hit a human size target with the barrel walking in full auto.
I thinks most Mil "full auto ARs" are 3 round bursts?
Spray and pray is only a waste of ammo.
Having never fired full auto I would like to here from the guys that do own NFA rifles.
We run semi auto for our patrol rifles. I have one full auto in our safe. I don't know why we have it. It rarely leaves the safe, and then only for some range work. It was purchased before I took over our patrol rifle program. Semi is where it's at.
The M4 is 3 rd burst, the M4A1 is Auto :big_boss:
I thinks most Mil "full auto ARs" are 3 round bursts?
Thanks guys, ya just a random question. I'm more wondering what the majority owns... semi or F/A. I can see how full auto is pretty stupid for any real world use. I guess my general question is whenever you look and see a policeman with a carbine patrol rifle or when people take carbine classes... are those rifles themselves usually semi-auto only? Whats the majority of people on here running / owning?
DeltaSierra
11-20-11, 19:18
Since the Hughes Amendment in '86 severely restricted the availability of fully automatic weapons, most people simply do not have the option of owning a fully automatic M-16/AR-15.
It sounds like a great idea to have a fully automatic weapon, right up until you get some trigger time with one.
ejewels, the other thing to keep in mind is that civilian ownership of full auto AR carbine/rifles is limited to those with the $$$$$$$ to pay the entrance fee or the correct licenses from the government to manufacture them. Since I do not have a federal license, the only full autos avaliabe to me would be pre 86 lowers, and they are well out of my price range, as well as most others. As such, everyone on civilian side pretty much runs semi-auto. I can't speak for LE. But, as other have stated, full auto is a pointless waste for serious work.
Almost all of my military and police time has been spent firing semi auto, but I know few ways to more decisively end a close range gun battle than a full auto M-4.....
Thanks guys, ya just a random question. I'm more wondering what the majority owns... semi or F/A. I can see how full auto is pretty stupid for any real world use. I guess my general question is whenever you look and see a policeman with a carbine patrol rifle or when people take carbine classes... are those rifles themselves usually semi-auto only? Whats the majority of people on here running / owning?
The majority of privately owned ARs are semi. Keep in mind that owning a full auto AR usually entails a very large outlay of cash (I just checked a Class III dealer on the web, M16s are averaging $24,000), and the associated NFA paperwork. It isn't like you just walk into a gun shop and can choose between auto and semi.
The majority of privately owned ARs are semi. Keep in mind that owning a full auto AR usually entails a very large outlay of cash (I just checked a Class III dealer on the web, M16s are averaging $24,000), and the associated NFA paperwork. It isn't like you just walk into a gun shop and can choose between auto and semi.
As much as we all wish that was the case, because F/A is pretty cool, and awesome if you have a source of cheap .308 (M240 if the '86 ban is ever pulled, I'm holding out for it), full-auto is almost impossible for anyone non-LE/.Mil to get.
In very few cases is a full-auto combat rifle applicable, of course. Semi is the way to go in most situations.
Iraq Ninja
11-20-11, 21:39
Full auto = full retard.
It may look cool and all, but auto fire is inherently inaccurate compared to well aimed and controlled single fire shots.
I must disagree. From my experience, full auto works very well against moving vehicles trying to run you over. Great attitude adjuster when dealing with hostile brick throwing crowds. Lastly, it can be helpful for breaking contract.
Never used it very much, be was a nice option to have.
Here is a video of how I shoot full auto...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/Gun%20stuff/th_10150436695445431_4295.jpg (http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d127/Iraqninja/Gun%20stuff/?action=view¤t=10150436695445431_4295.mp4)
GeorgiaBoy
11-20-11, 21:49
I should have clarified my original post. Sure, there are instances and circumstances, just like the ones you pointed out, where FA fire does make sense and has a purpose.
But I'm sure that you would agree that in most circumstances single auto fire make more sense.
Failure2Stop
11-20-11, 21:55
There are some applications where auto is VERY handy when it is the flick of a switch away.
Most of these do not apply to domestic use.
It requires training in application and technique.
For most uses, properly applied rapid aimed semi-automatic fire is a better choice.
Iraq Ninja
11-20-11, 22:18
But I'm sure that you would agree that in most circumstances single auto fire make more sense.
Absolutely. Besides the accuracy problem, you are using up ammo very quickly that you might need later.
I'll echo F2S and the Ninja. Full auto does have it's place, but obviously not in the civilian world (I am not saying they shouldn't own them, but aside from burning through ammo the benefit would be lost) unless it is coming to an end.
Full auto can be controlled with the correct technique and shooting in short bursts. I don't know where someone saw 24K but I have seen several listed for 12-15K.
Full auto = full retard.
It may look cool and all, but auto fire is inherently inaccurate compared to well aimed and controlled single fire shots.
+1. I have no desire to own F.A
Either on my H.D weapon or SHTF.
Im proficient because I train with my rifles how they are....in Semi-Auto
MikeCLeonard
11-20-11, 22:58
No disagreement with whats been posted...but I'm gonna bet that almost everyone that enjoys AR15's would opt for one that had full-auto capabilities vs. one that didn't if they cost the same amount. :D
Raven Armament
11-20-11, 23:24
With full auto, most people think it's an "empty the mag at once" proposition. Really, it's best for controlled bursts. The only time I'm dumping a magazine (other than function test, R&D, demo, etc) is if I'm breaching a room and have nothing to live for. Other than that it's semi auto or controlled bursts.
And not with the burst group. The burst group in the AR/M16 is horrible. :suicide2:
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A while back, I was at the Sheriff Dept's Range talking with the SWAT Team Leader. He told me he had just come back from a 3-day "Automatics Class" in OK. He had his Colt FA M4 with a new Battle Comp installed and asked if I wanted to stay after everyone left to watch him shoot to see how the BC worked.
He shot 30-rounds at about 20-25 yards and had 20+ shots in a 8" bullseye. I was impressed and told him so. He said "Yah, it is neat and fun but I would have a hard time explaining why I shot a bad guy 20 times in his living room. Just not too practical."
FWIW, he was extremely impressed with the BC and ordered another one for the Dept's other FA Colt.
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[Full Auto] can be helpful for breaking contract...
Interesting. Now I know how to get out of my two year cell phone contract! Fun and practical!http://bg.battletech.com/forums/Smileys/alive/evilgrin.gif
Interesting responses guys. So are most "patrol rifles" carried by regular cops (not SWAT) semi-auto only then? Also, Isn't a AR-15 technically only semi auto? If it has select fire capabilities, wouldn't it be an M-16 or M4?
HardLuck682
11-21-11, 09:11
M16 and M4 are military nomenclature designations, which has nothing to do with a "civillian AR15" and yes, the extreme majority of Police Patrol Rifles would be semi-auto. I am in the military, currently in Afghanistan, and the only time i ever switched to burst was at the range for familiarization.
Animal_Mother556
11-21-11, 09:19
I had the oppurtunity to shoot a full-auto suppressed SCAR in 308 today. I passed, looking at it was enough for me.
You, sir, are a better man than I. That's ALMOST as bad as passing up a free beer.
Yeah I would have done that just to do it. I've fired several full autos as well, but why not add one more to the list.
Animal_Mother556
11-21-11, 09:24
No disagreement with whats been posted...but I'm gonna bet that almost everyone that enjoys AR15's would opt for one that had full-auto capabilities vs. one that didn't if they cost the same amount. :D
Rrrrrrrrrroger that.
As far as usefulness of full-auto...Yeah, there are definitely times when you could use it. I have shot many rounds through M16A1s owned by my local SO. Rifle length gas systems are friggin titties on full-auto. Smooth and very controllable with an aggressive grip and stance.
So if the majority of Police Patrol Rifles are semi-auto, is it only the SWAT guys that usually have the full autos? I agree that owning one would only be a "cool toy" and nothing more.
Terlingueno
11-21-11, 10:12
So if the majority of Police Patrol Rifles are semi-auto, is it only the SWAT guys that usually have the full autos? I agree that owning one would only be a "cool toy" and nothing more.
US Border Patrol agents carry M4A1's and Hk UMP's in .40 down here...
Animal_Mother556
11-21-11, 10:27
I don't think there is a correlation at all. I think it just boils down to the individual department. I don't want to say that MOST people patrol with semi-autos and most SWAT teams carry full-auto. My local sheriff's office, for example, has full autos in the trunks of some patrol cars. Also some of the SWAT dudes have them. Now, for my local Police Department, I don't think they have ANY full auto stuff...SWAT or otherwise.
Years ago, my local SO bought three or four G36s. The explanation I remember hearing was something along the lines of "Well, the Iowa State Patrol uses them...and they are cool." They soon realized that they could have equipped MANY more deputies with AR15s for what they spent on these things. They got sold/traded real quick.
I don't know where someone saw 24K but I have seen several listed for 12-15K.
The 24K was just the result of a random google search. I too have seen them around the 15K mark.
OK, so it sounds like most civilians or LEO's with patrol rifles are owning / running semi-auto only. However, there are some with the cash or certain departments that issue select fires...
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Our local SD issues semi-auto (RRA, no less :rolleyes:) to most of the patrolmen and all of the SWAT guys except the SWAT Leader and one other SWAT guy are issued FA Colts.
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I don't think there is a correlation at all. I think it just boils down to the individual department. I don't want to say that MOST people patrol with semi-autos and most SWAT teams carry full-auto. My local sheriff's office, for example, has full autos in the trunks of some patrol cars. Also some of the SWAT dudes have them. Now, for my local Police Department, I don't think they have ANY full auto stuff...SWAT or otherwise.
Years ago, my local SO bought three or four G36s. The explanation I remember hearing was something along the lines of "Well, the Iowa State Patrol uses them...and they are cool." They soon realized that they could have equipped MANY more deputies with AR15s for what they spent on these things. They got sold/traded real quick.
My county has M16A1's thru the Government program. Got them stupid cheap..... Scary part is, none, and I mean NONE of them should even be issued side arms, let alone FA Rifles..... It's scary to watch them shoot..... How they got thru ILEA(Indiana LE Academy) is beyond me....
jonconsiglio
11-21-11, 14:16
This. There is a time and place for it, but I highly doubt I'd ever need it in my life.
I have however shot full and burst Ars. It's fun to be be able to say I've done it, but I've never trained with it and honestly it's annoying (to me).
I had the oppurtunity to shoot a full-auto suppressed SCAR in 308 today. I passed, looking at it was enough for me.
Where the hell was this and why wasn't I there...!?
Generalpie
11-21-11, 16:00
All our swat rifles are semi. Partly from no need for full auto plus much easier to get rid of when the latest comes out. Wonder how many armorys have a wall full of mp5's that arent't used anymore.
Fun factor? We have a full auto thompson!!
Failure2Stop
11-21-11, 16:01
Interesting responses guys. So are most "patrol rifles" carried by regular cops (not SWAT) semi-auto only then? Also, Isn't a AR-15 technically only semi auto? If it has select fire capabilities, wouldn't it be an M-16 or M4?
Actually, the original "AR15" was full auto.
It's a heavily semantics based argument about proper nomenclature, but frankly, those that get heavily invested in those discussions/arguments/poo hurling diatribes would be better served by simply getting a girlfriend/boyfriend and leave the rest of us out of their minutia anal-tweezering.
Now, onto the next handy issue, what's with all the questions about what cops are carrying?
Some get semi-auto, some get govvie program F/A.
What does it matter?
I normally wouldn't blink and eye about a question or two, but now you have made several posts asking specifically about police.
Let's just say that raises my hackles.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.
Yes, I definitely agree that many people get way into gun jargon when they could be getting a girlfriend / laid.
Its just out of curiosity. No reason really.
ejewels
Simple fact is if your on the recieving end semi or auto fire will make ZERO difference! :rolleyes: I would rather not be on the recieving end.:(
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I saw a range demo years ago, where 3 volunteers from a crowd were allowed to shoot 30-rounds FA at 3 silhoutte targets at 100-yards. All of these guys were using the "Rat Patrol Technique" where they were sweeping back and forth trying to hit the targets...to no avail. Two of the guys had 1 hit out of their three target and the 3rd had zero hits. Figured they made their hits on their first shots.
According to the timer, it took 3-seconds to fire the 30 rounds. Then, a SWAT guy stepped up with a SA, fired one shot at each target all with center chest hits in right at 2-seconds. That amounted to 90 shots FA for 2 hits and 100% hits for SA.
With the training and such that is available today, a well-practiced person could probably easily beat that SA time.
But maybe it's just me...
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Where the hell was this and why wasn't I there...!?
CCP&R. The guys from Modern were having a suppressor demonstration. The SCAR was owned by the suppressor folks I think. I was there for an IDPA match was the only reason I knew about it.
I had just shot a full auto AR the day before so I guess that was still holding me over. That and I kinda hate to test drive people's stuff if there's no chance in hell of me actually buying it.
LightningFast
11-21-11, 22:18
Do I want to own a F.A. gun? Of course. But, strictly for fun purposes. For real world use, give me a semi-auto. Being able to accurately place and be in control of each round is important to me.
ClearedHot
11-21-11, 22:21
Beyond 25m or so, it becomes very difficult to deliver accurate fire with a weapon set on F/A.
Semi auto fire is much more combat effective in most situations that require accurate, controlled fire.
jonbondave
11-22-11, 02:46
Actually, the original "AR15" was full auto.
It's a heavily semantics based argument about proper nomenclature, but frankly, those that get heavily invested in those discussions/arguments/poo hurling diatribes would be better served by simply getting a girlfriend/boyfriend and leave the rest of us out of their minutia anal-tweezering.
Now, onto the next handy issue, what's with all the questions about what cops are carrying?
Some get semi-auto, some get govvie program F/A.
What does it matter?
I normally wouldn't blink and eye about a question or two, but now you have made several posts asking specifically about police.
Let's just say that raises my hackles.
Eagerly awaiting your reply.
I was kinda getting creeped out by this as well.
OP - most cops have about the same amount of FA access as you and I do. IE - 0. Some have more.
Didn't mean to creep anyone out, I guess looking back I can see how my curiosity looks since I was asking about what the police use. I can assure you all I wasn't trying to find out so I would be prepared for my next robbery LOL.
Anyways, I was wondering what most civilians and even LEO's owned in terms of the AR-15, and it looks like 99% or so own semi's. They are more affordable, logical and don't require NFA unless you SBR or suppress it!
Thanks Guys...
I wasn't worried when I saw the questions about what police use. My friend's brother very wound up about what police use, how they operate, etc. He's infatuated with them, think's that they're all tactical gun guys and they must know everything about everything related to guns. I have respect for LEO's but nobody knows everything; and from my personal experience, alot of police don't know or care much about firearms.
In fact since the police department around here carries .45 Glocks this guy went out and bought one, in hopes that it will one day lead him to being a police officer. I told him that actually applying and being able to pass the physical would be better first steps but oh well, he's a gun owner now and at least it's better than his sword collection and anime obsession.
Man, I feel for your friends brother. He should get out of the basement and into a police department. I, myself have no interest in being and LEO, but have much respect for them.
Given the option at comparable prices I might opt for a full auto lower simply because there are situations where full auto might prove effective (although it is very unlikely I would ever find it necessary or appropriate to use F/A). I've already had the opportunity to fire a carbine in full auto. There was a range we frequented back east in early-mid 1980's that rented several F/A weapons for use at ther range (you had to buy the ammo from them at slightly elevated prices). It was cool for the first two magazines - one mag dump and one in 'controlled' bursts (neither target showed any indication of control). After that it just seemed like a money hose and I opted to not continue.
Since civilian ownership of full auto weapons are limited to pre-1986 production weapons already leagally in circulation the cost is prohibitive and well outside what I'd be willing to pay for the option (that would be no more than the tax stamp fee and perhaps a small upcharge for the F/A lower receiver and FCG). I would very much like to see production of F/A weapons for civilian ownership legalized as I consider the current status unconstitutional.
I would almost certainly purchase a F/A lower but would still consider the tax stamp fee alone cost prohibitive for more than one.
davidjinks
11-22-11, 12:05
Full auto is cool, when the ammo is free. The only FA guns for LE (That I'm aware of in my area) is for the SWAT guys. Most of those are MP5 and M4 weapons. Any of the regular PD guys/gals in my area have SA rifles.
I had my fill of FA in the Army. There's no way in hell I would dump 15-20K into a lower as a civvy. You'd spend about as much in ammo just trying to feed it.
I agree with most of the guys here...SA gives you more control, better hits and more ammo conservation.
Now, if those damned zombies ever attack and you find yourself pulling an Aussie peel...then maybe FA would be a benefit...(Sarcasm).
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I saw a range demo years ago, where 3 volunteers from a crowd were allowed to shoot 30-rounds FA at 3 silhoutte targets at 100-yards. All of these guys were using the "Rat Patrol Technique" where they were sweeping back and forth trying to hit the targets...to no avail. Two of the guys had 1 hit out of their three target and the 3rd had zero hits. Figured they made their hits on their first shots.
According to the timer, it took 3-seconds to fire the 30 rounds. Then, a SWAT guy stepped up with a SA, fired one shot at each target all with center chest hits in right at 2-seconds. That amounted to 90 shots FA for 2 hits and 100% hits for SA.
With the training and such that is available today, a well-practiced person could probably easily beat that SA time.
But maybe it's just me...
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ok, now do the same thing at 10 yds, each target gets 5 shots. Anyone who trains will be much faster with the auto.
FA, is, fun and usefull for certain things. Too bad its too expensive.
...
...
... I have respect for LEO's but nobody knows everything; and from my personal experience, alot of police don't know or care much about firearms.
...
....
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Just my opinion and definitely not 100% true but...
... I have observed and come to the conclusion that cops and the military are generally ignorant about guns and such.
But maybe it's just me...
.
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Just my opinion and definitely not 100% true but...
... I have observed and come to the conclusion that cops and the military are generally ignorant about guns and such.
But maybe it's just me...
.
It's you.
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-11, 22:28
Now, if those damned zombies ever attack and you find yourself pulling an Aussie peel...then maybe FA would be a benefit...(Sarcasm).
I actually think full auto would be worse against zombies, if it only takes one headshot.
IMHO. Full Auto is only for vehicles.
It's you.
Obviously this forum is more of an educated select few... and compared to the general population, they do know more... But in the whole sceme of things, every military person I know thinks they know EVERYTHING about guns, but they dont know shit. I know 4 marines (1 current, 1 just out w/i the past year). Maybe I just got exposed to a bad group. Great people, somewhat friends of mine, but they are not knowlegable about firearms. I only know 2 cops, they dont know much, but dont act like they do either. Just my experience. Now if your talking about "The military" or a "police dept", id bet the knowlege is increased quite a bit. My roomate was also in the navy, and does not know shit, but thats probably expected ;)
OP. From what I know of local PDs, our small suberb has 1 FA, rest are semi. adding to my previous post, I would very much like the FA option if i was mil,especially if I was going house to house. but for the types of situations an officer will encounter, SA is fine.
Did my share of FA with m16 and m60: always shot bursts. Shot enough burst to change barrels on the m60. Lot longer burst. Lots of heat. M60 crew is at least three men with extra barrel, tripod and ammo. Never whole clip or belt except to familiarize. At range we were required to be as acurate as possible. The medals hanging on a soldiers chest are testament to that. Expert or marksman are bragging points. Battle use being an extension, your no good to the squad with no rounds left.
22 years on police now and most cops don't care about nomenclature or stats. Most shoot better than you would believe. The m4 we have are not the best, not used much, semi, but everyone hits bullseye at 100 yards. Not many reasons or chances in police work to shoot further. Too many bad things can get in the way. Most cops also don't want to talk guns with those who don't put one on everyday. Military uses what they are given. Learn to use it and that's it.
jonbondave
12-02-11, 04:03
Did my share of FA with m16 and m60: always shot bursts. Shot enough burst to change barrels on the m60. Lot longer burst. Lots of heat. M60 crew is at least three men with extra barrel, tripod and ammo. Never whole clip or belt except to familiarize. At range we were required to be as acurate as possible. The medals hanging on a soldiers chest are testament to that. Expert or marksman are bragging points. Battle use being an extension, your no good to the squad with no rounds left.
22 years on police now and most cops don't care about nomenclature or stats. Most shoot better than you would believe. The m4 we have are not the best, not used much, semi, but everyone hits bullseye at 100 yards. Not many reasons or chances in police work to shoot further. Too many bad things can get in the way. Most cops also don't want to talk guns with those who don't put one on everyday. Military uses what they are given. Learn to use it and that's it.
I've found that most cops i run into are pretty secretive about guns, at first. Like you say, they don't wanna talk shop when it comes to guns with "civvie's". But in my experience, if you break the ice on another topic and they don't perceive you as a whack-a-doo, and epsecially if they enjoy marksmanship in general, not just as a preliminary qualification for their paycheck... They'll talk to you about guns. I do a ton of private trades and sales and purchases around my area, 75% of the time i go to meet up with someone they are either active or retired LEO's. Which is good for me, I generally feel better about buying from or selling to a badge... But i've never been troubled by a transaction, i generally scout my meet before i make the call, if I ever felt uncomfortable I'd just walk away.
Maybe this is a subject for another thread but...
What about 3-rd burst? There's been a few cursory comments but I'm curious to know more. Someone said burst on the AR was not good. Why not? Or, in what way does it malfunction? Further, doesn't burst have some real utility in both home defense and service work? (If some tweaker has my family in the immanent way of harm I'd much rather use 3 then 1 & the faster the better.) Please explain why burst isnt more useful.
Burst sucks.
1. It's a mechanical device to limit full auto fire instead of teaching fire discipline.
2. More moving parts= more shit to go wrong.
3. Unless you time your weapon every time you do something you may not get 3 rounds due to the way the burst came works.
4. Costs the same in the class III world as full auto.
5. When you need auto (real world) it's not there.
Maybe this is a subject for another thread but...
What about 3-rd burst? There's been a few cursory comments but I'm curious to know more. Someone said burst on the AR was not good. Why not? Or, in what way does it malfunction? Further, doesn't burst have some real utility in both home defense and service work? (If some tweaker has my family in the immanent way of harm I'd much rather use 3 then 1 & the faster the better.) Please explain why burst isnt more useful.
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Just my opinion and definitely not 100% true but...
... I have observed and come to the conclusion that cops and the military are generally ignorant about guns and such.
But maybe it's just me...
.
I agree, it's just you :). In my experience LEOs are very knowledgable about firearms. I know there are some that see firearms as a tool and nothing more, but come range day those officers are just as excited as the "gun nuts" to go out and shoot. I'll also add that events like columbine and the LA bank robbery have change a lot of training. Officers are better trained with firearms now a days.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
QuietShootr
12-02-11, 08:43
It's you.
No, it's not him. He's right.
I like Auto.
I dont know where some of yall are getting the idea that its uncontrollable out of an M16, check out my muzzle:
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/197/9ln.mp4/
(In reality I would do 6-8 round bursts, but wasting money is more fun)
Its a good option to have, especially in break contact/ suppression.
But you have a muzzle brake ace ;)
But you have a muzzle brake ace ;)
Muzzle brake doesnt really help as much for auto as knowing how to shoot it, I can shoot a para-PK with equally little muzzle rise. The slow cyclic rate of that M16 helps alot though.
I find the muzzle break actually helps alot more in semi.:D
I like Auto.
I dont know where some of yall are getting the idea that its uncontrollable out of an M16, check out my muzzle:
http://imageshack.us/clip/my-videos/197/9ln.mp4/
(In reality I would do 6-8 round bursts, but wasting money is more fun)
Its a good option to have, especially in break contact/ suppression.
What's the point? You didn't even giggle or have a smile on your face afterwards! :p (sarcasm heavy)
I go rent FA's from time to time just for the pure joy of doing so. I will concede that it gets spendy real quick and that's why I don't do it more often.
Personally, I can put effective rounds on target juuuuust about as fast with a semi-auto (ok, not quite as fast, but pretty damn fast) and so can many other people I shoot with. It's actually more fun at times. Learned this drill at a Magpul class and Travis Haley is scary fast, like sub 3.5seconds fast. (can't remember exactly what he did it in.)
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Gun%20stuff/th_MVI_1086.jpg (http://s143.photobucket.com/albums/r127/Zhurdan/Gun%20stuff/?action=view¤t=MVI_1086.mp4)
Years ago I was Pres and Chief RO of an NRA affiliated gun club where we shot IPSC style pistol matches every month, and after the pistol match (if there was time) we would run the same course with carbines. Targets were all close range = 7y-50y. Shooters could fire as many rounds per target as they wanted, minimum of two rounds per. Scoring was the same as IPSC, but only the two best shots per target counted for score.
Several of the members were Class III dealers so there were usually both full-autos and semi's running the course. Only once in 5 years did a full-auto finish #1, which cured me of ever wanting one.
However, I once witnessed the SWAT Team leader of the local SO put all 30 rounds into an IPSC target in one long burst @ 50y standing unsupported, so a few "experts" can do what the rest of us can't with FA's. He was testing a confiscated AR-15 that one of the Class III dealers had converted to FA for the SO, which is why he dumped the entire mag in one burst. I was impressed because I have trouble keeping more than the first 2-3 rounds on target with a FA burst at half that distance!
No, it's not him. He's right.
We have beat this horse before.
Some cops are, some arent.
Watch the show COPS.
On NUMEROUS occasions there is an officer that takes a gun from a suspect and cant even clear it.
It is a very bad idea to automatically assume that LEO/Mil are gun guys. Not all of them are.
I know NUMEROUS cops and marines, I had a marine over the other day that had NO clue on how to operate my M4.
Almost all LEOs I know personally shoot ONLY when they have to qualify.
On another occasion, I handed a Marine my newly built SBR handle it like it was a kid with a shitty diaper, didnt even shoulder it, point to my Gunfighter Charging handle and say "You got one of...these huh? Ya those are nice!"
We have beat this horse before.
Some cops are, some aren't.
Agreed.
Microcosm, of society. Some take the time to learn, some refuse.
Just a random general question... For most of this carbine / AR community, is it mostly all geared for semi-automatics? I was watching some of the magpul dynamic vids and all rifles on there seem to be semi. Is the carbine used by LEO's (patrol rifle) and civilians mostly always running semi-auto only?
Speaking as a LEO, I am responsible for every round launched downrange and everything it impacts. "You break it...you bought it!"
My primary carbine is a Colt M-4. it is at the armorer for a gas issue. Right now, I have a Colt LE Only Semi-Auto Carbine. I do not feel at all "under gunned."
The only time I could see flipping a selector over to auto is clearing rooms with shots taken at contact distance. Even then, probably not.
Our qualification course has a fair amount of full auto fire. I am not sure why. We rarely train for full auto fire.
I generally have only 1 extra 30 round mag on my 1st line gear and 2 on my second line gear. Full auto would put me out of ammo pretty fast.
Magpul Dynamics and other training programs are not made to present the viewer/students with Tactics. Tactics are generally kept for Military/LE specialized classes that Airsofters and Tactical gurus can't get into. (This is partly because of legal ordeals.)
This same idea translates to weapon systems. Fully automatic fire is typically a Tactical feature that isn't accurate or productive in most situations.
Semi-auto is a very productive selection for many of the great reasons pointed out already in this thread. I just thought I would bring up this aspect of the spectrum.
We have beat this horse before.
Some cops are, some arent.
Watch the show COPS.
On NUMEROUS occasions there is an officer that takes a gun from a suspect and cant even clear it.
It is a very bad idea to automatically assume that LEO/Mil are gun guys. Not all of them are.
I know NUMEROUS cops and marines, I had a marine over the other day that had NO clue on how to operate my M4.
Almost all LEOs I know personally shoot ONLY when they have to qualify.
On another occasion, I handed a Marine my newly built SBR handle it like it was a kid with a shitty diaper, didnt even shoulder it, point to my Gunfighter Charging handle and say "You got one of...these huh? Ya those are nice!"
You talk a lot for a guy who spends his days drawing unicorns and flowers on suburban girls. Someone should muzzle you.
Why don't you step back a little from the "we have before" shit. If you're in one corner, and QuietShooter is in another, I'm going to listen to him, not you, ink boy.
Suwannee Tim
12-03-11, 07:38
You talk a lot for a guy who spends his days drawing unicorns and flowers on suburban girls. Someone should muzzle you.
Why don't you step back a little from the "we have before" shit. If you're in one corner, and QuietShooter is in another, I'm going to listen to him, not you, ink boy.
How about leaving off with the snarky personal insults, that or take them somewhere they fit in, arfcom for example.
Nice :D
I wondered about those things.
DeltaSierra
12-03-11, 09:50
For some reason the slide fire stock is TABOO over here!
Because it is stupid.
You can't practically use the thing in a true self defense or training situation due to the design, and it is truly a waste of $200 bucks that adds nothing good to the function of the weapon.
Because it is stupid.
You can't practically use the thing in a true self defense or training situation due to the design, and it is truly a waste of $200 bucks that adds nothing good to the function of the weapon.
Wow! That's a very constructive (look it up) comment! Any more???
Because it is stupid.
You can't practically use the thing in a true self defense or training situation due to the design, and it is truly a waste of $200 bucks that adds nothing good to the function of the weapon.
===========================================
I've only seen one SlideFire (or watever it is called) for sale at a gun show---$350 and the guy was selling them as fast as he could put them on the table.
Now...to me...$350 for a gimmick is pretty stupid. That is a third of a new Colt.
As Delta stated, I also feel it "...adds nothing good to the function of the weapon...", which sounds like a valid reason to not get one.
But maybe it's just me...
.
Wow! That's a very constructive (look it up) comment! Any more???
If that is the crap you are into then you'll find a more receptive audience here,
www.ar15.com
If that is the crap you are into then you'll find a more receptive audience here,
www.ar15.com
Wow! I'm on numerous other gun related forums! And NO one had negative comments about about this stock! Maybe there not as IGNORANT as some of use or there SMART enough not to comment or make fun of someone else's choice! You know WHAT I think! Alot of you guys NEED to get over yourselfs!
Magpul Dynamics and other training programs are not made to present the viewer/students with Tactics. Tactics are generally kept for Military/LE specialized classes that Airsofters and Tactical gurus can't get into. (This is partly because of legal ordeals.)
This same idea translates to weapon systems. Fully automatic fire is typically a Tactical feature that isn't accurate or productive in most situations.
Semi-auto is a very productive selection for many of the great reasons pointed out already in this thread. I just thought I would bring up this aspect of the spectrum.
With that logic, you would also think we only need 10 round magazines. :confused:
Wow! I'm on numerous other gun related forums! And NO one had negative comments about about this stock! Maybe there not as IGNORANT as some of use or there SMART enough not to comment or make fun of someone else's choice! You know WHAT I think! Alot of you guys NEED to get over yourselfs!
Well some of the other forums you frequent might be more concerned with shooting dirt clods and looking cool. This forum is geared towards the use of weapons as primarily defensive tools. Clint Smith said it best, "Quick way to turn money into noise."
We have some full autos at my department but no one can qualify on full auto. Some idiot came up with a qualification course that you have to be able to count your rounds, i.e. give a 6 round burst. No one can do it. There are only a handful of them and rest of us carry personally owned rifles.
You talk a lot for a guy who spends his days drawing unicorns and flowers on suburban girls. Someone should muzzle you.
Why don't you step back a little from the "we have before" shit. If you're in one corner, and QuietShooter is in another, I'm going to listen to him, not you, ink boy.
Ya, good one. Ink boy.
Very original.
You fit right in with the other Bubbas on Barfcom.
Internet tough guys. You make me laugh
With that logic, you would also think we only need 10 round magazines. :confused:
Yeah, it's pretty dumb.
Well some of the other forums you frequent might be more concerned with shooting dirt clods and looking cool. This forum is geared towards the use of weapons as primarily defensive tools. Clint Smith said it best, "Quick way to turn money into noise."
Don't be a follower..be an innovator!
Don't be a follower..be an innovator!
How about you stop being a used car salesman troll on M4C? I got to play with one of these manna from heaven devices you won't shut up about the other day. Who in the world is going to promote a weapon for any kind of SD/mil/LEO use (of which this site is geared to) that keeps your finger OFF of the trigger and on some other extension of this contraption? Yeh that doesn't sound like a disaster in waiting.
RTA,
BcmJUnkie is a respected member here and even if he wasn't lay off the damn stupid personal attacks. Can we please get back on topic without sounding like a bunch of OTS immature trolls who are peddling some stupid device and want to look cool by trying to attempt to make others look stupid?
-Jax
MikeCLeonard
12-03-11, 17:26
Wow! I'm on numerous other gun related forums! And NO one had negative comments about about this stock! Maybe there not as IGNORANT as some of use or there SMART enough not to comment or make fun of someone else's choice! You know WHAT I think! Alot of you guys NEED to get over yourselfs!
That stock does look like a fun range-toy, which is most likely what it was designed for...but that is all it is. I won't knock anyone for buying something they enjoy, but you have to realize that most of the guys that frequent this site, do so for reasons other than getting information on new range-toys. I don't go to the Sig forum to talk about Hk, and I don't come M4carbine.net to get opinions on Hell-Fire Triggers, and bump-fire stocks. Know the audience you're speaking to before speaking. It's valuable knowledge you should use in many facets of life.
You taking stabs at the people here for focusing on the more serious side of the firearms ownership is no better than them belittling someone for purchasing a product just for the fun of it.
You will also gain no respect by insinuating snobbery, stupidity, or ignorance on the part of the board members here when you don't even spell correctly...especially not knowing the spelling of the words you put right before SMART, and IGNORANT.
Peace!
:)
DeltaSierra
12-03-11, 17:55
I don't know I think you guys like the abuse! The HEAD koolaid drinker banned me for 3 days! If your gonna BAN somebody be a MAN and ban them for life! Believe me if I had MY way I wouldn't give any of USE a second chance! I'll say it AGAIN a true WARRIOR is HUMBLE and doesn't think WHO he is! The certain few are wannabees! I'm SURE the people that I had to put in there PLACE before have had it happened to them before! They know it and that's ALL that matters!
You might want to lay off the misspelled, incoherent attacks...
This stupid stock argument is ridiculous. Why don't you just hold onto your hat, and quit posting about it, as none of us here care to hear about it...
I fail to see why anyone would be so enthusiastic about a such a horrible contraption, marketed as a buttstock. It doesn't do anything good, and is a piece of junk. I wouldn't carry a rifle with one, and I certainly don't want to hear about how great they are from someone that doesn't have enough real-world experience to know that they are useless.
Voodoochild
12-03-11, 18:08
How about everyone quit with the Dick measuring contest and stop the insults. Either act like adults or piss off...This is a place for level headed people to learn and share knowledge if you continue down this path I will nuke everyone..
I got to put a few mags through a carbine with the slidefire stock awhile back. I didn't think it was a viable piece of kit for any real purpose.
It's not even close to the same as a real full auto. Having to bump fire the gun made it hard to control and the worst thing about it is that it makes the gun either right or left handed and is not even changeable!
If I can't shoot the gun from both shoulders I don't want it.
How about everyone quit with the Dick measuring contest and stop the insults. Either act like adults or piss off...This is a place for level headed people to learn and share knowledge if you continue down this path I will nuke everyone..This.
I love this forum for a lot of reasons but the attitudes & chips on shoulders make being here a dreadful experience sometimes.
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