View Full Version : What are my options?
I have finally figured out that a double stack pistol isn't for me, they just don't fit my hands. I'm looking at full size pistols, mainly 1911s. I've had German Sigs, 245 and 225. I will have about $1500 to spend. I'm looking at Springfield Operator, Colts. Are there any other options? I'm looking for Glock reliabilty and the ability to mount a light. A Wilson Combat isn't out of the ? if they really are that much better, just longer to save. I want to buy and be done, once and for all.
edt:I have a Glock 17 and a grip reduction is not out of the question.
How atre the Lone Wolf lowers (?)
DeltaSierra
11-20-11, 19:24
Glock reliability in a 1911?? Not going to happen...
OK, now to be serious...
"Vickers’ first choice for a base gun is a government-model, carbon steel Colt, Springfield or Caspian frame and slide set. They’ve been making guns the longest and have proven reliable in his experience, Vickers said." -
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/06/08/read-this-before-you-buy-your-first-1911/
I have finally figured out that a double stack pistol isn't for me, they just don't fit my hands. I'm looking at full size pistols, mainly 1911s. I've had German Sigs, 245 and 225. I will have about $1500 to spend. I'm looking at Springfield Operator, Colts. Are there any other options? I'm looking for Glock reliabilty and the ability to mount a light. A Wilson Combat isn't out of the ? if they really are that much better, just longer to save. I want to buy and be done, once and for all.
edt:I have a Glock 17 and a grip reduction is not out of the question.
How atre the Lone Wolf lowers (?)
Before you go the single stack route which has a limited selection of good pistols, have you tried other double stack options? For instance, the H&K P30 grip allows you to change out the side panels for a grip size almost as slim as a 1911. The S&W M&P series also has the ability to changle out grips for a much more narrow grip. The M&P .45 with the most narrow grip is actually slimmer than my single stacked Sig P220 .45.
Find a good used Gen III S&W. Like .45ACP? 4506 maybe? 4516?
I'm looking for Glock reliabilty and the ability to mount a light.
HK45C :dirol:
HK45C :dirol:
+1 for a rock solid pistol.
Take it to war, fire all of your bullets, then beat the enemy to death with the pistol, come home and pass it down for generations to come.
HK45C is an excellent choice. You should definitely look in to an HK before you go 1911. Who knows, they might have the "right" gun for you. But I also like the idea of a 3rd Gen Smith. I have a 4566TSW and it's an awesome pistol, and single stack.
Plus 1 for hk45. Excellent firearm.
+1 for a rock solid pistol.
Take it to war, fire all of your bullets, then beat the enemy to death with the pistol, come home and pass it down for generations to come.
You should turn that in to hk's marketing, thats a great saying.
Kahr TP9 is something else to look at.
gtmtnbiker98
11-21-11, 07:27
Glock reliability in a 1911?? Not going to happen...
OK, now to be serious...
"Vickers’ first choice for a base gun is a government-model, carbon steel Colt, Springfield or Caspian frame and slide set. They’ve been making guns the longest and have proven reliable in his experience, Vickers said." -
http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gearscout/2011/06/08/read-this-before-you-buy-your-first-1911/
Are Glock's still as "reliable" as they once were?
I have a Kimber TLE II custom. It has been 100% reliable. I only have about 2000 rds done the tube so far, but in my opinion. I would go with a 1911. for an everyday carry I am thinking about getting a 4" gun.
I understand that you want to have something that feels good, but how's your performance? As long as you're accurate and can manage the gun, then you might want to put up with the discomfort in order to maintain a lightweight higher capacity option than a 1911.
Is this a carry gun, competition, recreational?
I have finally figured out that a double stack pistol isn't for me, they just don't fit my hands. I'm looking at full size pistols, mainly 1911s. I've had German Sigs, 245 and 225. I will have about $1500 to spend. I'm looking at Springfield Operator, Colts. Are there any other options? I'm looking for Glock reliabilty and the ability to mount a light. A Wilson Combat isn't out of the ? if they really are that much better, just longer to save. I want to buy and be done, once and for all.
edt:I have a Glock 17 and a grip reduction is not out of the question.
How atre the Lone Wolf lowers (?)
I really cannot understand how an M&P (with its three adjustable backstraps) does not fit your hand???
I got bad news for you, you won't be finding a 1911 that will give you the same reliability as a Glock. This doesn't mean that that the modern (QUALITY BUILT) 1911 isn't reliable, but it isn't up to what the modern polymer pistols can do (sorry).
C4
Are Glock's still as "reliable" as they once were?
No, they are not, but you can find older GEN 3's out there that still live up to the standard.
C4
I have finally figured out that a double stack pistol isn't for me, they just don't fit my hands. I'm looking at full size pistols, mainly 1911s. I've had German Sigs, 245 and 225. I will have about $1500 to spend. I'm looking at Springfield Operator, Colts. Are there any other options? I'm looking for Glock reliabilty and the ability to mount a light. A Wilson Combat isn't out of the ? if they really are that much better, just longer to save. I want to buy and be done, once and for all.
edt:I have a Glock 17 and a grip reduction is not out of the question.
How atre the Lone Wolf lowers (?)
I have personally found grip-reduced Glocks to make a huge difference for me. They feel and point better than M&P's with any backstrap IMO. I recommend www.gripreductions.com, Dale does good work and his turn around is about 1 week.
My performance is suffering. M&P's feel the same as well, I went and looked at them Saturday. It's a pistol for all of the above. The palm swell area is the issue.
I do have a smaller carry gun for other times when I don't want to print but for the most part I dress around it. I for once had decent help Saturday and was advised to look at Glock 30SF, they just didn't have any to check out.
Plus 1 for hk45. Excellent firearm.
You should turn that in to hk's marketing, thats a great saying.
Agreed. The HK45 shoots as well as my "high end" 1911, with much less maintenance. Great marketing piece as well.
I think I'm gonna go try a grip reduction because that's really all I need and hope that takes of my problem.
I think I'm gonna go try a grip reduction because that's really all I need and hope that takes of my problem.
Sounds like a very solid plan of action. Plus if it does not work out I do not think you will have any trouble finding a new home for your G17.
I think I'm gonna go try a grip reduction because that's really all I need and hope that takes of my problem.
Well I hate to say it, but instead of wringing your hands over how you can't find the perfect fitting gun(which is impossible), you might be more productive wringing your hands over why you haven't learned to make certain pistols work for you.
I've used a lot of pistols over the years, and some took longer to become proficient with than others. Once I dedicated myself to a particular platform(even if I sucked at it), and I learned to adapt to the pistol(instead of demanding that the pistol adapt to me), I was shooting rings around my coeworkers. When I was forced to use Sigs 15yrs ago, I hated them and could not shoot them anywhere near as well as my 1911s or even Glocks. However, in a couple of years I could shoot a P228 better than any 1911 in dynamic shooting since I emersed myself in dedication to the platform. There does come a point when you keep hopping from pistol to pistol in search of "Ms. Right", that you become a master of nothing with no good muscle memory to speak of.
The search for the "perfect" pistol is never ending. Usually the more time you spend searching for what you cannot find the less time you spend training, and the less money you have for the important things in life. Some of the best shooters I have ever seen decided one day that what they had in their hand was pretty good, even though it wasn't the "best" for them, and the dedicated themselves to mastering it.
The M&P with the small backstrap is very very svelte. give it a try before writing off a double stack.
what do you mean "doesnt fit"? Glocks feel HORRIBLE in my hands, but when I torque my grip, they lock out like a bank vault. Very little movement when shooting and very natural pointing, after shooting one for 1 day, its like second nature. Find something good, and make it work.
I bought a cz based on comfort, now I realize the grip is too small for me.
brushy bill
11-22-11, 17:25
Find a good used Gen III S&W. Like .45ACP? 4506 maybe? 4516?
Big and heavy, but built like a tank and dead reliable, I really like my 4506.
What about a Glock 36? single stack, 45 acp, might be what your looking for.
"Once and for all", eh? Good luck with that. Although after 50 years I find I do pretty well with the old basic 1911 and DA wheelguns. It turns out that the main "variable" all that time was--me. :jester:
Well I hate to say it, but instead of wringing your hands over how you can't find the perfect fitting gun(which is impossible), you might be more productive wringing your hands over why you haven't learned to make certain pistols work for you.
I've used a lot of pistols over the years, and some took longer to become proficient with than others. Once I dedicated myself to a particular platform(even if I sucked at it), and I learned to adapt to the pistol(instead of demanding that the pistol adapt to me), I was shooting rings around my coeworkers. When I was forced to use Sigs 15yrs ago, I hated them and could not shoot them anywhere near as well as my 1911s or even Glocks. However, in a couple of years I could shoot a P228 better than any 1911 in dynamic shooting since I emersed myself in dedication to the platform. There does come a point when you keep hopping from pistol to pistol in search of "Ms. Right", that you become a master of nothing with no good muscle memory to speak of.
The search for the "perfect" pistol is never ending. Usually the more time you spend searching for what you cannot find the less time you spend training, and the less money you have for the important things in life. Some of the best shooters I have ever seen decided one day that what they had in their hand was pretty good, even though it wasn't the "best" for them, and the dedicated themselves to mastering it.
That was exactly what I was going for with the Glock. I just wanted to stick with the new old stock gen 3 17 since they are tried and true. I was happy with it and just happened to try a 1911 at the range last week and it was much more stable in my hand. I wasn't fighting it to stay stable in my hands as much as my Glock. I think a grip reduction will help it be more stable in my hands and I won't have to wrestle it as much.
Caeser25--My 11 y/o daughter has no problems shooting an M&P w/small grip inserts.
You can't make a decision about a pistol holding it in a store. It must be shot against a known standardized test with both time and score correctly measured. It also helps to have an experienced instructor watching...
Before you do anything, ensure you have adequate training. Many folks simply don't know what they don't know. Officers in our area have reported outstanding training from Pat Mcnamara/TMAC, Magpul Dynamics, Trident Concepts, EAG, PistolTraining.com, VTAC, CSAT, Vickers Tactical, Fulcrum Concepts, ITTS, Kyle Defoor, and TigerSwan––you would be ahead of the game to get training from any of them. Some other folks offering good training include: Ernie Langdon, Pat Goodale/PFT, Louis Awerbuck/Yavpai Shooting Academy, LMS Defense, Jason Falla/Redback One, Mike Pannone/CTT Solutions, Jim Smith/Spartan Tactical, Northern Red, Dave Hall, and Don Lazzarini. A lot of these classes are available through Grey Group Training.
Thanks for all the replies.
If you need something more reliable than a reliable 1911 then I would suggest moving to a better neighborhood or a different line of work. Otherwise carry a rifle.
Contoured and/or smaller gripped polymer doublestacks: HK P30, Walther PPQ, and (with lesser reliability) Sig P250 with small grip frame and Taurus PT 111 Mil Pro's have small grips. In addition it may not be the absolute circumference you are are seeking but the "slabsidedness"; then again maybe you would be happier with a rounded grip. All depends on the shooter. I would working on the shooter--try different ways of holding the gun. Try the Leatham Enos grip with the Ayoob wedge. Look it up.
St.Michael
11-27-11, 16:42
HK45C :dirol:
I was unaware this is a single stack weapon. :confused: +1 for HK then though. :)
TriviaMonster
11-27-11, 16:53
It's a double stack, but a grip reduction done on a 2nd gen glock feels pretty small. You will have to skip the pictanny rail though.
-Chris-
Plumber237
01-07-12, 00:17
Another +1 for the HK45C...slim grip that fits like a glove
tfltackdriver
01-07-12, 09:30
I will pile on and suggest you run your Glock through a VSM basic class and then decide. If it still isn't working for you, you're out $150 and at the very least have some fundamentals under your belt that will translate to other designs. While the class is likely to be dominated by Glocks and M&Ps, you may have the opportunity to get some trigger time with the M&P if you don't already have it, and maybe some other designs, too.
The internet commando advice on other forums for a long time has been to find what fits your hand and is comfortable. In my experience, this hasn't always correlated strongly with what I can learn to shoot well. A P239 feels like buttah, but I shoot it like garbage... I have never been so disappointed in a pistol. Straight-up 3rd gen glocks feel like garbage, but I can shoot one fairly well. CZs, Berettas feel like the grip is WAY too big, but I shoot them alright. I drove myself crazy and spent way too much money trying to chase the perfect pistol. Instead, I found my needs were better served with something with excellent reliability and pretty good accuracy.
If you're not wholly stuck on the .45, maybe try the P239 in .40. It did not work for me. The S&W 3913 also offers a single stack with a rail, though they are tough to find, 9 mm only and have the slide-mounted safety, which is a nonstarter in my book. The Sig P220 Compact models have been on my to-do list for a long time, but I haven't found anyone willing to let me try one out and I'm not buying another sig until I shoot the heck out of one first.
Also, don't tell anyone, but I had a Taurus PT1911. :haha: It had a QC problem with the barrel out of the gate, but once I got it back, I ran it like a rented mule and experienced similar reliability to what I have in my Glock 19. Wonderful trigger and excellent accuracy. I know I got very lucky, but it goes to show YMMV. I am not recommending you go out and get one, but I do disagree that you have to be a gunsmith to keep a sub-$1,000 1911 running. You do have to be willing to learn some basic maintenance, and if you get a SHITE pistol, you will always be chasing your tail trying to get it to be reliable. They will not take the abuse and round count as a Glock, but a Springfield Operator (for the rail) is a darn nice pistol and within even a shooting enthusiast's round-count envelope, can work well. Springfield customer service is among the best, too. Unlike other manufacturers (COLT!) my experience with them has been that if you have a problem, they will send your pistol back FIXED the first time -- usually to include normal wear and tear items, your own stupidity, your uncle's rusted up 1911 with a monkey-fitted aftermarket barrel, etc.
Hogsgunwild
01-07-12, 11:11
The M&P with the small backstrap is very very svelte. give it a try before writing off a double stack.
My thoughts exactly regarding the 9MM or .40S&W M&Ps.
This thread made me pop the safe open. Here is the order of "ease of grip" regarding what felt the smallest among compact double-stacks (including some single-stack 1911s)and allowed me to get my strong-hand thumb around the grip the furthest:
1.) M&P Fullsize and Compact 9MMs (same size as a .40)
2.) H&K P2000 .40 (same size as a 9MM)
3.) 1911s (I was shocked. Stopped after trying four for feel)
4.) M&P 45 (Compact and Midsize)
5.) Glock 23
Yes, the M&Ps in 9MM and .40S&W were substantially smaller and easier for me to grip than all of the rest. This was a real eye opener as I would never have guessed that my 1911s would not be the smallest / easiest to grip of the bunch and I would never have guessed that my Glock 23 was such a pig compared to the rest.
I thought that I should add that I shoot my M&P 45s and my M&P 9MMs equally well so the grip size is definitely not the whole issue when it comes to a platform that works. I dare to say that I can shoot my M&Ps better than my high-end 1911s but part of that is that my 1911s have stayed in the safe since I got into the M&Ps.
I also vote for the 3rd gen Smiths. I have the 5946 9mm and to me it feels thinner then my G19. If that's still too much their 4506 are single stack.
askani79705
01-08-12, 01:27
Maybe a 3900 series S&W ? I had one for some time and loved it.
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