goteron
11-20-11, 21:20
So I went to the range today to test a few things. One was accuracy at 25 yards using WWB and +P so see if my pistols exhibited the early unlocking issue that is being discussed. I have heard from a reliable source that this affects less than 1% of the guns that leave S&W. The second was to run the FAST drill on two identical guns, irons vs RMR. A third issue came up during the range session that I will also discuss.
Gear:
2 M&P 9FS guns
Apex FSS
Apex RAM
Apex FRE
Stream light TLR-3
Small backstrap with stippling.
1 gun has a 8moa LED non adjustable RMR, the second has ameriglo sights. (I am waiting to get the second one milled to be an identical backup as the RMR equipped gun is my carry gun)
Secret city weaponeers holster (iwb)
T-Shirt - concealed
Bladetech single mag pouch
Mags have 10-8 followers
I started shooting about 2.5 years ago, and probably have somewhere in the region of 20,000 combined pistol rounds in the last 2 years. However, I most of those are on RDS guns. I was an early adopter and moved away from irons quickly. I previously shot glocks, and switched to M&Ps after getting an opportunity to shoot one.
I had never run the FAST drill before today, and actually only learned about it Friday, when I printed 20 targets. I don't shoot competition at all, so was lucky enough to come across pistol training.com after following the rabbit trail on the early unlocking issue.
I missed the part about running it cold until just reviewing some things just now, so my best times were recorded after having run it 15 times.
I had just installed the FSS kits and FRE extractors a few nights ago. I dry fired the fast drill a few times to get a feel for the test and try out the new triggers, they are great by the way.
After setting up at the range I went to fire a mag to get a feel of the new triggers. The trigger was great, but the slide hung up on the Back into battery. I conducted immediate action and fired again, same result.
Both guns were having this happen EVERY round. As the next round was being picked up, the bottom of the Apex extractor was gouging into the casing. The edge on both of them were so sharp it was not allowing the round to get centered and loaded into the chamber. I understand these are EDM'ed, and the edges come out sharp. I ended up having to use a leather man multi-tool to radius the edge of both extractors. Once this was done, the guns ran fine.
If you install an FRE, check this, with the tighter tolerances this radius (or lack thereof) really becomes an issue. I plan on removing and putting a cleaner radius / polish on the bottom edge.
After resolving this I tested the early unlocking on both guns. I shot both WWB and 124g +P ammo at 25 yards, supported on a barricade, I had wanted to bench the guns, however I didn't make it to the range with a 25y bench. I did not experience the vertical shift or huge groups. Accuracy was acceptable for me (4-5 inches with +P, 5-6 with WWB) - on the RDS gun, both were POA, POI.
Next I setup for the FAST drill, I started with the iron sight equipped gun. I ran sets of 3 tests with each gun for a total of 18 tests. All ammo was WWB for these.
All of these tests were shot on a CED timer, and all unwitnessed, I just recorded final times.
My average draw to first shot was somewhere in the 1.65 range - irons were slightly quicker here
My average reload time was somewhere in the 1.85 range
I had about 10 clean runs, the other 8 I ignored for these numbers, most were second shot head box misses as I pushed to get faster times. Those put me in the mid 7s.
First run with the irons gun was 5.38 - clean
I shot between 5.13 and 5.82 for the remaining tests - clean
Best two strings with irons were 5.13 and 5.18 - clean
First string with the RDS gun was 5.65 - clean
Best two times were 4.94 and 4.98 - clean
I shot between 5.35 - 5.72 - clean
I "felt" that irons were quicker on target, and that proved to be true. But my second head box shots were faster with the dot, and also more confident.
My splits on the COM shots were .25 average Range. With irons, the times were higher .2s, and constant, with the RDS, they started at .3 or so, and got quicker down to about .2.
The RDS always got quicker as the string progressed. I could feel getting into rhythm as the dot came back to target.
One of the biggest factors for me, especially for shots 1 and 2 is mechanical offset, at 7 yards it's quite a bit.
I feel much more confident in shooting with the RDS, the irons feel a little less "cluttered".
From previous shooting I knew I shot better with RDS, and about the same speed. I am glad I got to test this on the FAST, as it is a great cross section of skills, and has two sight acquisitions, accuracy, and speed.
I took away some specific things I needed to work on. And hope to do so with some dry fire exercises between now and the time I get to shoot again.
All of this is YMMV, but I hadn't seen a same gun comparison done, and I wanted some validation for myself that I was making a good decision switching to RDS. I believe they are the way of the future, and as the technology improves, I imagine they will be everywhere.
Thanks
I'll update this thread with some pictures of the case and extractor issue.
Gear:
2 M&P 9FS guns
Apex FSS
Apex RAM
Apex FRE
Stream light TLR-3
Small backstrap with stippling.
1 gun has a 8moa LED non adjustable RMR, the second has ameriglo sights. (I am waiting to get the second one milled to be an identical backup as the RMR equipped gun is my carry gun)
Secret city weaponeers holster (iwb)
T-Shirt - concealed
Bladetech single mag pouch
Mags have 10-8 followers
I started shooting about 2.5 years ago, and probably have somewhere in the region of 20,000 combined pistol rounds in the last 2 years. However, I most of those are on RDS guns. I was an early adopter and moved away from irons quickly. I previously shot glocks, and switched to M&Ps after getting an opportunity to shoot one.
I had never run the FAST drill before today, and actually only learned about it Friday, when I printed 20 targets. I don't shoot competition at all, so was lucky enough to come across pistol training.com after following the rabbit trail on the early unlocking issue.
I missed the part about running it cold until just reviewing some things just now, so my best times were recorded after having run it 15 times.
I had just installed the FSS kits and FRE extractors a few nights ago. I dry fired the fast drill a few times to get a feel for the test and try out the new triggers, they are great by the way.
After setting up at the range I went to fire a mag to get a feel of the new triggers. The trigger was great, but the slide hung up on the Back into battery. I conducted immediate action and fired again, same result.
Both guns were having this happen EVERY round. As the next round was being picked up, the bottom of the Apex extractor was gouging into the casing. The edge on both of them were so sharp it was not allowing the round to get centered and loaded into the chamber. I understand these are EDM'ed, and the edges come out sharp. I ended up having to use a leather man multi-tool to radius the edge of both extractors. Once this was done, the guns ran fine.
If you install an FRE, check this, with the tighter tolerances this radius (or lack thereof) really becomes an issue. I plan on removing and putting a cleaner radius / polish on the bottom edge.
After resolving this I tested the early unlocking on both guns. I shot both WWB and 124g +P ammo at 25 yards, supported on a barricade, I had wanted to bench the guns, however I didn't make it to the range with a 25y bench. I did not experience the vertical shift or huge groups. Accuracy was acceptable for me (4-5 inches with +P, 5-6 with WWB) - on the RDS gun, both were POA, POI.
Next I setup for the FAST drill, I started with the iron sight equipped gun. I ran sets of 3 tests with each gun for a total of 18 tests. All ammo was WWB for these.
All of these tests were shot on a CED timer, and all unwitnessed, I just recorded final times.
My average draw to first shot was somewhere in the 1.65 range - irons were slightly quicker here
My average reload time was somewhere in the 1.85 range
I had about 10 clean runs, the other 8 I ignored for these numbers, most were second shot head box misses as I pushed to get faster times. Those put me in the mid 7s.
First run with the irons gun was 5.38 - clean
I shot between 5.13 and 5.82 for the remaining tests - clean
Best two strings with irons were 5.13 and 5.18 - clean
First string with the RDS gun was 5.65 - clean
Best two times were 4.94 and 4.98 - clean
I shot between 5.35 - 5.72 - clean
I "felt" that irons were quicker on target, and that proved to be true. But my second head box shots were faster with the dot, and also more confident.
My splits on the COM shots were .25 average Range. With irons, the times were higher .2s, and constant, with the RDS, they started at .3 or so, and got quicker down to about .2.
The RDS always got quicker as the string progressed. I could feel getting into rhythm as the dot came back to target.
One of the biggest factors for me, especially for shots 1 and 2 is mechanical offset, at 7 yards it's quite a bit.
I feel much more confident in shooting with the RDS, the irons feel a little less "cluttered".
From previous shooting I knew I shot better with RDS, and about the same speed. I am glad I got to test this on the FAST, as it is a great cross section of skills, and has two sight acquisitions, accuracy, and speed.
I took away some specific things I needed to work on. And hope to do so with some dry fire exercises between now and the time I get to shoot again.
All of this is YMMV, but I hadn't seen a same gun comparison done, and I wanted some validation for myself that I was making a good decision switching to RDS. I believe they are the way of the future, and as the technology improves, I imagine they will be everywhere.
Thanks
I'll update this thread with some pictures of the case and extractor issue.