View Full Version : Trying really hard not to blame the gun...
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Just shot a match with CFDCC here in Central Florida using my Smith and Wesson M&P 45 Compact. It is also my EDC gun.
Six steel targets, 5 inch circles, 10-15 yards, NOT ONE HIT.
Grabbed my friends Glock 17 - ringing steel like there was no tomorrow.
Freaked out I went straight to an indoor range to do some bench testing. Resting the magazine on the table and applying everything I knew about trigger pull, grip and sight picture I gave my best. Got a 2" group at 5 yards. But the group was 5"-6" low and 3" to the left. No wonder I wasn't hitting my target.
Grabbed my friends Glock 19 - shot it at a regular stance, no bench, and was shooting a 1" group, dead center, no problems.
Note: Ammo used in the M&P was Aguila 45 and Winchester 45 acp white box. Just took the Adaptive Handgun with Travis Haley 2 weeks ago and I did 'okay'. Shots were consistently low left. Could not get any shot within a 1 inch circle at 3 yards. Yet shot a friends gun and was smoking the dot drill.
Sell the M&P for a Glock 19?
Id doubt its the gun...
Buy the glock that you shoot well. It only makes sense.
So this pistol is your EDC and you shot a match with it? How many rounds have you put through it? The general rule of thumb for trusting a pistol with your life is to put 1000 trouble free rounds through it, and during that time evaluate if you are able to shoot the pistol well. Have you made this evaluation yet?
offshorebear
11-21-11, 16:21
Try ball and dummy drills with a friend at the range. Track the front sight.
It sounds like you are anticipating recoil on the 45. You are less familiar with the 9mm glock so you don't know when to anticipate recoil and you make the shots.
Did Travis do anything about your low left shots?
Wow that sucks. Don't carry it if you can't hit with it. That's a disaster waiting to happen.
Are the sights aligned properly?
Has anyone else tried to shoot it and what were their results? Low left?
It could be that you need to adjust your grip/trigger finger with this different platform...?
So this pistol is your EDC and you shot a match with it? How many rounds have you put through it? The general rule of thumb for trusting a pistol with your life is to put 1000 trouble free rounds through it, and during that time evaluate if you are able to shoot the pistol well. Have you made this evaluation yet?
I have put well over 2000 rounds through her. During the testing phase, I shot really well. Just yesterday at the match I noticed I was grossly missing my shots. Within the evaluation I didn't do 'precision' shooting but rather getting hits within a 8 inch circle out to 25 yards. So far I'm 4 shots from the holster within 2 seconds at 10 yards.
Try ball and dummy drills with a friend at the range. Track the front sight.
It sounds like you are anticipating recoil on the 45. You are less familiar with the 9mm glock so you don't know when to anticipate recoil and you make the shots.
Did Travis do anything about your low left shots?
I brought this up with him and brought it up to shot anticipation. My comment that I shoot better faster made him give that diagnosis. I've done the ball and dummy drill with success. First time was not pretty but have dramatically helped me and have been looking very good thus far. Great thought on the gun switch.
Wow that sucks. Don't carry it if you can't hit with it. That's a disaster waiting to happen.
Are the sights aligned properly?
Has anyone else tried to shoot it and what were their results? Low left?
It could be that you need to adjust your grip/trigger finger with this different platform...?
Had two people at the range try it yesterday. Same result.
I just checked my sights when you posted this. Holy hell!!
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It you’re shooting Glocks that well offhand, it’s probably not you. That said, you need to improve your bench technique so that no part of the gun touches a hard surface. Instead, test your forearms on sandbags and let the gun recoil normally.
I’d guess it’s the gun. A 2” group at 5 yards from a rest is NOT acceptable—a M&P 45 should shoot one ragged hole at 5 yards, and in the 2” range at 25 yards. Normally, shots falling far low-and-left indicates that a right-hander is jerking the trigger, but in this case I suspect an internal structural flaw in the gun.
When I worked on commercial ranges, we had several G17’s start throwing shots way out at nine o’clock because their slides had cracked through the ejection port, so it can happen.
Have you detail stripped your 45 and checked it for broken/abnormally worn parts?
Okie John
What about your sights?
Are you saying they're off? The picture looks fine.
Remember the sights are centered to the bore of the barrel, not the center of the dovetail so slight visual misalignment is not always indicative of anything.
Zeroing the pistol mechanically is the only way to confirm whether the sights are on or off. Eyeballing it doesnt really do much of anything but give you a starting point.
threeheadeddog
11-21-11, 19:26
I will point out that while the M&P 45's are notorious for having great accuracy they also have a bad rap for horrendous triggers. My M&P 45 went from being impossible to shoot well to one of the most accurate pistol I have shot with a trigger job. I just could not shoot the gun with any speed without disterbing the sight alignment, and I could barely do it with complete concentration.
sniperfrog
11-21-11, 20:54
Not saying it is you but I've seen guys that were really good with a Glock pick up something different like a Sig and shoot like ass. I guess the different grip angle throws them off.
Since your resting the gun on the bench I'd say it's probably the gun. You may have to send it in to S&W.
Sounds like a pistol problem, if you have inspected the sights, tried different ammo, and had other competent shooters see if they have the same problem.
offshorebear
11-21-11, 21:17
Grip angle has zero effect on fundamentals. If your sight picture is correct, and your trigger pull is correct, the grip angle does nothing.
Check the zero of your sights. Honestly, I don't think that comes into play at 5 yards, but make others try the gun from a rest. The pic of your front sight doesn't mean that much, but I don't trust SW quality control, so who knows.
99% of the time low left is the shooter.
RogerinTPA
11-22-11, 07:21
Have you had other folks shoot it? Have a Smith look at the sight alignment or change sights. If you can't get to the real problem yourself, send it back to S&W to work on it. Who knows, it may be a defective barrel.
Sights don't affect group size, just location if you're shooting somewhere static - that doesn't seem to be the cause, or at least the primary.
If somebody else can shoot a tighter group with that pistol it might dispel your hardware worry, but that's a crap group from 5 yards if that's all it will mechanically do - in which case sending it to S&W would then be the preferred COA
Hard to say if you have a bad barrel or not. Your groups (low left) are the classic signs of a bad flinch. Why don't you have it with the Glock you ask? It is in 9mm and you are shooting a 45.
I have seen a lot of shooters fail with a 45 and shoot well with th 9mm. After a lot of rounds through a compact 45, they get beat down and don't shoot well IMHO.
You are welcome to send me your slide and barrel and I will shoot it for group and check some things out for you (for free).
C4
About 5 weeks go I switched from G19 to P30 and went to shoot a pin match. On a first run, it took me all 8 shots to take down one pin:eek:
Learning point: yep, it is possible to have a massive degradation between different pistols.
My usual diagnostic is ball and dummy, but not as a drill. I shoot very slow groups for accuracy at intermediate distances - far enough to test fundamentals and bring out problems, close enough that it is within my capabilities to get a nice group. I throw few random dummies in there as a QC measure to pick up anticipation and snatch; if I don't anticipate and don't jerk the trigger on dummies, I am assuming that I don't do it on live shots. The key is do it slow, B&D is hard to read at fast pace.
Shawn Wayne
11-22-11, 11:28
I experienced a very similar problem the first time I shot my NIB M&P45C. I could not shoot a paper plate sized group at 10 yards. Picked up my M&P9FS w/ apex parts and I shot a 1-2" group. Same thing with my 1911, 1-2" groups.
Handed the M&P45C to my brother, who is a pretty crappy shot, and he could not shoot a 2' group at 10 yards. Then handed him my 1911 and he shot a 6" group at 10 yards.
The trigger on my M&P45C out of the box was horrendous. I could not even dry fire the trigger without noticing the barrel flicking every which way as the trigger broke. Just something about the way the trigger stacked and broke that would not allow me to keep the gun on target.
Fast forward 3k rounds and the trigger on the M&P45C is MUCH better. The trigger breaks much smoother and several pounds lighter. Gun is super accurate and I can put rounds on top of each other at 10 yards.
Do not underestimate the sheer crappyness and unshootability of the trigger on that M&P45C out of the box. From my personal experience it is the trigger that is the problem, however the trigger will get much better and you will notice the gun is very accurate.
It could be the grip angle is bad for you. I have a slight tendency to flinch with most guns(have to think about it more than I should). With my bros glock, it feels more natural and spread out so I have no reason to flinch (and dont have to be as concious about it). This could be whats going on with you. 90% of people HATE the glock grip angle, 10% LOVE it. haha. Have someone else shoot it and see, then youll know for sure.
It could be the grip angle is bad for you. I have a slight tendency to flinch with most guns(have to think about it more than I should). With my bros glock, it feels more natural and spread out so I have no reason to flinch (and dont have to be as concious about it). This could be whats going on with you. 90% of people HATE the glock grip angle, 10% LOVE it. haha. Have someone else shoot it and see, then youll know for sure.
90% of people who don't know how to shoot complain about grip angle... it has precisely NOTHING to do with accuracy. Some of the most accurate guns on the planet have steep angle (Sig P210, HK P7).
M&P's aren't immune to accuracy issues, so anything is possible. I'm betting it's a combo of shooter induced problems, along with a possible mechanical one.
Have a tallented shooter run your M&P a little bit, and see how it groups for them.
90% of people who don't know how to shoot complain about grip angle... it has precisely NOTHING to do with accuracy. Some of the most accurate guns on the planet have steep angle (Sig P210, HK P7).
M&P's aren't immune to accuracy issues, so anything is possible. I'm betting it's a combo of shooter induced problems, along with a possible mechanical one.
Have a tallented shooter run your M&P a little bit, and see how it groups for them.
I agree 100%, however, if the gun does not fit the shooter, it may exaggerate problems. Similar to how a great trigger makes shooters(even those with poor trigger control) look good. Notice I said "I have a tendency" stating that the problem is me.
The point of my post was, like others, that the OP needs to have someone who shoots m&Ps well, shoot the gun before he blames it.
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