View Full Version : Most challenging weapons training course?
If anyone is willing, I'd be interested in hearing what was the most challenging weapons training course you have attended and why?
I would also like to hear opinions on what you think are the required elements of a training course.
Thanks
I have attended EAG and LMS defense courses and enjoyed them both greatly. I haven't taken it yet but from what I hear Jeff Gonzales/trident concepts is difficult. It's a pass fail course ie I think you get a did attend "cert" but only those that pass his standards get the completed course cert.
I've heard good things about all those you mentioned. Were they carbine, handgun or both?
3 day carbine (EAG
Pistol II (EAG
3 day carbine with night shoot (EAG
Shoot house (eag)
No low light (LMS)
Vickers 1911 centennial class. (more fun the. Hardcore class)
I think many would say that the most difficult courses in regards to accuracy requirements would be Vickers Advanced Pistol and Carbine classes.
To me though, the classes that really challenge my brain the most are the CQB classes that Vickers teaches at Blackwater. As if moving, shooting, identifying and finding targets in BW's complex shoot house wasn't hard enough, you attempt to impress "THE LAV" with your skillz. :sarcastic:
C4
Chuck Taylor's Handgun Combat Master Class.
All weapon presentations were from the holster. Firearms and holster must be concealable "street" equipment. The test is as
follows:
STANDARD EXERCISES: 2 shots on torso (a 13" x 11" scoring area);
perform each once. Total of 80 pts.
1. 1 meter (m), Speed Rock, 1.0 second (sec)
2. 1 m, Step Back, 1.0 sec
3. 3 m, 1.0 sec
4. 7 m, 1.3 sec
5. 10 m, 1.7 sec
6. 15 m, 2.2 sec
7. 25 m, 2.7 sec
8. 50 m, 6.0 sec
SINGLES (Presentations): 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 25 pts.
9. 7 m, 1.0 sec
PIVOTS and TURNS: 1 shot on torso; perform each a total of five times. Total of 75 pts.
10. 90 degree pivot to the right, 1.0 sec
11. 90 degree pivot to the left, 1.0 sec
12. 180 degree turn, 1.2 sec
MULTIPLE TARGETS: 1 shot on each as listed. All shot from 5 m.
Total of 45 pts. Targets are 1 m apart center to center.
13. 2 targets, 1.2 sec
14. 3 targets, 1.5 sec
15. 4 targets, 1.8 sec
HEAD SHOTS: 1 shot per command ,head zone of 4" x 3". Total of 45 pts.
16. 5 m, 1.0 sec. Perform a total of 4 times.
17. 7 m, 1.2 sec. Perform a total of 5 times.
AMBIDEXTROUS SHOOTING: 1 shot on each target. Total of 30 pts.
Time limit 6.0 sec. Perform once.
18. 7 m; candidate draws, fires 1 round at each of 3 targets spaced 1m apart, speed loads, transfers gun to weak hand, then fires 1 more shot at each target weak hand unsupported.
HOSTAGE SITUATIONS: 1 shot on each. Perform each a total of 5
times. Shot from 7 m. Total of 50 pts. Time limit: 1.2 sec
each.
19. Head shot on felon past left side of hostage's head. Perform a total of 5 times.
20. Head shot on felon past right side of hostages head. Perform a total of 5 times.
TARGETS AT ODD ANGLES: 60% obscured by cover. 1 shot each. Shot from 7 m. Perform each a total of five times. Total of 50 pts.
Time Limit: 1.2 sec each.
21. Target looking around right side of cover.
22. Target looking around left side of cover.
Next is the weapon handling phase.
SPEED LOADING; NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 1.5 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.
TACTICAL LOADING. NO SHOOTING. LOADING ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times. 4.0 seconds each. Possible total deduction of 25 pts from shooting score.
MALFUNCTION CLEARANCE DRILLS. NO SHOOTING. CLEARANCE DRILLS ONLY. Deduct 5 pts for each overtime. Perform a total of five times within time limits listed below. Possible total deduction of 75 pts from shooting score.
A. Position One (Failure to Fire): 1.0 sec
B. Position Two (Failure to Eject): 1.0 sec
C. Position Three (Feedway Stoppage): 4.0 sec
There you have it. There is a possible total of 400 pts. You must achieve 360 pts (90%) to pass. The penalties are as follows:
Shots are scored 5 points each for center hits, peripheral hits are 2 points for major calibers, 1 point for minor.
5 pts will be deducted from candidates score for each occurrence of the following offenses:
A. Premature start/"creeping"
B. Overtime shot. If caused by a malfunction and candidate properly clears it, no penalty will be assessed.
C. Hit on hostage or object designated as cover.
D. Overtime speed load, tactical load or malfunction
clearance.
I'd say it's a pretty even race between MDFI close quarters or MDFI Handgun III. Close quarters offered up a TON of very new information...and as there was a lot of unsighted shooting (from retention, primarily) shooters had to be on top of their game 100%. It was very difficult mentally to process all the information and make sure I didn't create any new holes in me or everyone else.
Handgun III was primarily single handed manipulations, including drawing, shooting, reloading and clearing malfunctions. Right handed stuff wasn't too out there, but doing everything left handed was rather challenging...especially drawing the gun.
A solid runner up would be MDFI low light carbine. I had already done a couple low light handgun courses, but running the carbine was a completely different game. It became very difficult once darkness hit...I didn't have troubles in the handgun courses, perhaps because I practice a lot more with my pistol. Clearing malfs on my rifle in dark started sucking, quick. Once again we had a very solid group of shooters so the MDFI crew ran us hard. Towards the end of the night it was getting pretty hectic and it was hard having to process all the information while being deprived of sight...was a great class, learned a ton.
Required elements of a firearms course? To learn something...\
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-11, 22:09
Anything Gunsite.
The challenging part?
Not laughing, throwing up, falling asleep, and staying in a good mood.
I haven't personally been to it but the Shivworks edged weapon and combatives course looks brutally demanding.
Henk Iverson's Rifle Gun Fighting class. It's the first class that I've ever gone to, and I didn't get a cert of completion just attendance. I knew that was going to happen as soon as we got told what the final consisted of. Great class, just hard.
Physically wise it was a LE only rural operations course. 3-5 second rushes and low crawls are a young mans game. It was a good class, that was a great refresher on infantry tactics, but it was an a** kicker.
-Jenrick
Kyle Defoor's standards are pretty brutal.
I've heard the Rogers Shooting School classes are among the most challenging, but I've not been.
Good replies (except one). How about military, police or other organizational courses?
Anything Gunsite.
The challenging part?
Not laughing, throwing up, falling asleep, and staying in a good mood.
Why does Gunsite get a bad press here?
I have never been and am curious.
Sorry for the OP side track.
Why does Gunsite get a bad press here?
I have never been and am curious.
Sorry for the OP side track.
Because they (among other schools) are about 15 years behind the times, and refuse to keep up with the evolution of current TTP's.
montanadave
11-23-11, 12:00
Why does Gunsite get a bad press here?
I have never been and am curious.
Sorry for the OP side track.
I know I'm going to be swimming against the tide here, but I'm going to offer an alternative viewpoint on Gunsite.
I'm a recreational shooter who did some shooting when I was in junior high and high school, along with a little bird hunting, and then dropped it for thirty years. I'm not ex-military or LE. I got back into shooting a few years back when I had both the time and the financial resources to indulge in what can be an expensive hobby.
I've taken 4-5 defensive handgun and carbine courses which have been offered locally and decided to try a 5-day handgun course at Gunsite earlier this year. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Gunsite has a great facility, the instructor to shooter ratio was usually 1:2 when you were on the firing line so there was a lot of individual instruction, the instructors were professional, knowledgable, and engaged, and the facility staff were accommodating and terrific to deal with.
Was the instruction in the Handgun 250 course pretty basic? Sure. And working on my fundamentals was what I needed to do. Plus advice on equipment was readily available, there's a well-stocked pro shop, and a gunsmith onsite who could quickly make modifications or adjustments short order. I changed out sights and the thumb safety on a 1911 and the gunsmith had my pistol back to me before I finished lunch.
I understand how many on this site who have more professional experience and advanced training would find it tedious, but I'm guessing there are more than a few folks that frequent this forum who got here looking for advice from people with a lot more experience than they have. Gunsite might provide a great experience for some of those folks and, while it might not be for everyone, the training there might be just what some people are looking for.
Sorry for wandering off topic but I suspect the title of this thread will attract plenty of people who are interested in training classes and not all of them are ready to be special forces operators. :smile:
Why does Gunsite get a bad press here?
I have never been and am curious.
Sorry for the OP side track.
I attended a Gunsite A&I Vets 223 (5 Day) course back in 2005- ithe class was challenging, practical and relevant.
We shot all the way out to 300m, had runs through the shoot house and donga trail, fired from the inside of vehicles and engaged moving targets. Instructors actively sought feedback on how to make the course better.
I learned a lot and would do it again.
That so many current itinerant instructors got their start there should be noted. Only time will tell how many instructors from a similar facility like BW will still be around 20 years from now.
I took Jeff Gonzales Combative Carbine II. It's a 3-day 2000-round course with graded accuracy evolutions. In the course I took, only two out of about 15 participants actually passed the course meeting his minimum requirements for scoring. I learned a lot, got credit for taking the course...hope to do better next time.
Good inputs from you guys. I guess I should put in my two cents worth. Most challenging I went through was Progressive Force Concepts Advanced Carbine. A couple of areas made it challenging; bilateral shooting and the malfunction drill portion because they really tried to add stress by yelling at you while you were performing. Students also had to clear about 7-8 weapons with different stoppages. Then we had to do it during night fire also. They also had a qualification in order to get their certificate.
Great learning experience for me. The class taught me a lot about what I could do.
The most challenging course I've attended has been Ernest Langdon's Advanced Pistol Course (http://www.langdontac.com/index.html). Ernest's guiding philosophies were 'No one stands still in a gunfight' and 'Proximity negates skill'. So we spent nearly the entire class shooting on the move, shooting moving targets and finally shooting moving targets on the move. These are skills you don't get to practice every day, and my skills were pushed considerably during this course. But I also left the course far more confident in my abilities, as I was able to land effective hits on movers even while moving rather quickly.
ETA: I wrote an AAR on this course that I posted at another website and realized that I didn't cross post here at M4C. I've remedied that for those interested - AAR now available here (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=93238).
The most challenging course I've attended has been Ernest Langdon's Advanced Pistol Course (http://www.langdontac.com/index.html). Ernest's guiding philosophies were 'No one stands still in a gunfight' and 'Proximity negates skill'.
I second this. Not only was it most challenging, it was also most rewarding. I observed more skill gain in those two days than any other two (or three) day class I've taken, hands down.
It was a great combination of top notch teaching and top notch students which allowed us to accomplish so much. Highly recommended.
kelly neal
11-23-11, 17:23
Bennie Cooley's rifle/pistol course. Why so challenging? Half (!!) the shots in the class were from the support side which DRAMATICALLY improved my support side shooting. Plus the class was very physical with lots of up/down forward movement drills. The class also contained great drills involving disarms and using the weapons as impact devices and a great lecture about mindset.
But be warned I would recommend a thick skin if attending a Cooley class.
Hardest classes:
3 day Vickers Advanced Handgun It was also one of the best classes ...
3 day Vickers Advanced Carbine/Handgun fought myself and my carbine the whole class... Shot okay, but the heat, my back and fighting my zero made it more work than it should have been for parts of it.
Hack Advanced Handgun. Not sure why but it kicked my ass. I want to retake it as a measuring stick of my training over the last couple years. Kens a hell of an instructor and I definitely want a chance to train with him again.
Northern Red Invitational. Shooting bulls at 25 with a G19 every which way to Sunday kicked my ass, but in the end the class also made me a better shooter. Learned a lot at this class.
There are others but those stick out as the hardest for ME. The reality is that many times it's you and not the instructor who dictates your experience. You can burn certain stuff down on your home range and then get to class and end up tasting wyndex doing the same stuff... Suck it up, own it and move on when a class beats your ass. Chances are you are a better shooter because of it. I know I am.
+1 for Bennie Cooley. I hosted a 3 day carbine with him and it was more demanding than others I have taken whether it was a train up or vetting.
John Hearne
12-02-11, 17:40
As far as challenging goes - try the Rogers Shooting School. Their pistol class test has only been shot "clean" once, by Robby Leatham. They also have a short range carbine course (9 mm uppers) and another rifle course that combines the short range class with a long range portion using your .223 rifle.
Check out these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG1cVq4gx2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSxXOZVHKcU&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLE321B16D57EEA35E
FWIW, I've been to Gunsite twice and always thought the training was relevant and useful. If they weren't a two-day drive away, I'd be there more often.
Thanks John,
I have only been able to watch his training video, but I thought it was very thorough as to his technique and the reasoning behind it.
Do you happen to know why he advocates a low ready as opposed to the popular "compressed" types?
Bennie Cooley is seriously under rated... Everyone needs to give him a good look.
Kyle Defoor has some real tough standards. Not to mention, there's plenty of running to be had
Bill Bryant
12-02-11, 21:15
My son got some challenging weapons training in the USMC preparing to deploy with FAST Company.
I'm curious to hear comparisons between things like the USMC CQB and AUC courses and courses for civilians.
Anybody been to both?
Failure2Stop
12-02-11, 21:58
My son got some challenging weapons training in the USMC preparing to deploy with FAST Company.
I'm curious to hear comparisons between things like the USMC CQB and AUC courses and courses for civilians.
Anybody been to both?
Not even close.
The training provided by top tier instructors blows the canned shoots produced by committee and mediocrity out of the water.
Not even close.
The training provided by top tier instructors blows the canned shoots produced by committee and mediocrity out of the water.
Wonder why that is? Funding/Time
Good replies (except one). How about military, police or other organizational courses?
Ive learned more about shooting from private instructors over a couple days than I have from the mil and fed combined in 12 years.
Wonder why that is? Funding/Time
Risk aversion, institutional inertia, and poor leadership.
Not even close.
The training provided by top tier instructors blows the canned shoots produced by committee and mediocrity out of the water.
We have the problem that 90 or so percent of Marines of Soldiers aren't gun guys and really don't take the training all that seriously. They are more concerned with getting it over with so they can go on leave or liberty.
It doesn't help that the PTP is a couple of cycles behind what they are doing in theater. The greatest learning always occurs at the RIP/TOA between the units because they can give the ground truth of what is going on, without the filter of TECOM or TRADOC.
Not even close.
The training provided by top tier instructors blows the canned shoots produced by committee and mediocrity out of the water.
I have heard this before by folks with your similar background.
On a side note, I did a lecture for a group that included some active LE on basic room clearing principles. About two weeks later, I see one of the LE guys in my store with his Father. The Father tells me that his son was pissed when he got back from the lecture. I asked why? He said because his son had NEVER received anything near that level of detail from the LE community.
I think what a lot of LE and Mil types do not realize is that some of the best training available is on the Commercial side of the house and are shocked when they find out how good Joe Six Pack has become via commercially available training.
C4
John Hearne
12-03-11, 09:44
Do you happen to know why he advocates a low ready as opposed to the popular "compressed" types?
I'm not Bill but suspect that it has something to do with Rule 2 of the universal rules of gunhandling - don't let your muzzle cover something you're not willing to destroy.
My take, FWIW, is that compressed readies are a byproduct of military training where you can more easily justify covering anyone with a muzzle. They are also a byproduct of the FAM program and are meant to work in a very specialized environment where low readies wouldn't work. Plus, the FAM's don't care if they kill everyone on the plane, as long as the aircraft doesn't get taken over as used as a cruise missile.
Besides Rogers, I know that Scottie Reitz and Tom Givens both push traditional low readies. Scottie Reitz goes so far as to argue that the pistol should be shifted off the target to the side in the case of an ND. Reitz was a cop for many years and probably knows something about holding people at gun point.
Finally, I really wonder about the value of compressed readies in most situations given the documented existence of "trigger verification." The rule are redundant, you have to break two to really screw up, with most compressed readies, you're short circuiting a major safety device.
John Hearne
12-03-11, 09:50
Wonder why that is? Funding/Time
That's part of it but the big ones are instructor knowledge, instructor ability, and motivation. Quite simply, the private instructors simply know more than the institutional trainers. Institutional trainers generally only know what was contained in the instructor instructor course they took several years ago. When that course was taught it was already outdated and now, several years later, most of the stuff is forgotten.
I've also observed that most private instructors are much better shots than their institutional brothers. While Tiger Woods has a coach, most people will struggle to teach beyond their ability. If an instructor doesn't think it can be done, then they aren't going to teach it.
Finally, most private sector instructors are very passionate about their work. Most take courses on their own time and their own dime in order to get better and learn better instructional methods. They simply care more.
Failure2Stop
12-06-11, 03:36
Wonder why that is? Funding/Time
John hits most of my points in his post above this one.
One of the big problems is that the instructors aren't as good as they believe. There are defiantely exceptions to that, as there are some exceptional instructors that came out of .mil training jobs, but they are not the norm. It takes a lot of personal effort and dedication to be a superior shooter and instructor, just focusing on one takes a hell of a lot of time by itself, and there aren't many school houses that can gather even one or two of those guys.
There is also an issue with adhering to the schedule and ammo/logistics instead of being able to conform to the students, as well as the knowledge of when to do so. Most of these instructors and coaches seem to mostly wander around behind the firing line, spewing cleched phrases with odd word emphasis, without actually having ever mastered any part of their "profession".
We have the problem that 90 or so percent of Marines of Soldiers aren't gun guys and really don't take the training all that seriously. They are more concerned with getting it over with so they can go on leave or liberty.
It doesn't help that the PTP is a couple of cycles behind what they are doing in theater. The greatest learning always occurs at the RIP/TOA between the units because they can give the ground truth of what is going on, without the filter of TECOM or TRADOC.
I agree that POIs are always behind relevant TTPs, but there isn't much change in the marksmanship aspect, and that is a huge failing of many "gunfighter" courses outside the SF community. I don't blame the students for wanting to get the day over and get to the bar, but I do blame the instructors that have the same mentality, as those that are passionate and proficient tend to motivate students into caring about the material and striving to succeed.
So far to date, i would say Pats 2 day pistol 3 day carbine was tough for the ammount of perfection and accuaracy demanded.
As far as physically demanding I would have to say Magpuls pistol class was pretty physically intense.
both great classes in there own right.
My take, FWIW, is that compressed readies are a byproduct of military training where you can more easily justify covering anyone with a muzzle. They are also a byproduct of the FAM program and are meant to work in a very specialized environment where low readies wouldn't work. Plus, the FAM's don't care if they kill everyone on the plane, as long as the aircraft doesn't get taken over as used as a cruise missile.
I know it's a bit of thread drift, but I find those comments on the FAM's interesting.
I think there are a number of factors at work: they're arguably one of the most competent agencies with handguns, they're going to be passing within inches of people in a situation (presents huge retention concerns once the gun comes out), and likely a lot of other stuff that's not coming to my mind.
I can see respect the idea that a FAM retaining his weapon has priority over a few passengers getting swept... that's just the first time I've heard it worded that way.
I find it interesting your observations have been the same as mine.
We always had to stick to a fairly rigid schedule/round count. And the instructors...I don't know how many times I've seen those whose standard comments are "watch your trigger squeeze" or "watch your breathing" regardless of what the student was actually doing.
On the flip side, I actually got invited to go to the Marine instructor course...my unit wouldn't pay for it...go figure!
John hits most of my points in his post above this one.
One of the big problems is that the instructors aren't as good as they believe. There are defiantely exceptions to that, as there are some exceptional instructors that came out of .mil training jobs, but they are not the norm. It takes a lot of personal effort and dedication to be a superior shooter and instructor, just focusing on one takes a hell of a lot of time by itself, and there aren't many school houses that can gather even one or two of those guys.
There is also an issue with adhering to the schedule and ammo/logistics instead of being able to conform to the students, as well as the knowledge of when to do so. Most of these instructors and coaches seem to mostly wander around behind the firing line, spewing cleched phrases with odd word emphasis, without actually having ever mastered any part of their "profession".
I agree that POIs are always behind relevant TTPs, but there isn't much change in the marksmanship aspect, and that is a huge failing of many "gunfighter" courses outside the SF community. I don't blame the students for wanting to get the day over and get to the bar, but I do blame the instructors that have the same mentality, as those that are passionate and proficient tend to motivate students into caring about the material and striving to succeed.
I think what a lot of LE and Mil types do not realize is that some of the best training available is on the Commercial side of the house and are shocked when they find out how good Joe Six Pack has become via commercially available training.
C4
Agreed. My brother is tiny little Army. I know he's had good schools and training opportunities. He doesn't shoot all that much though. But, I do. Mine just costs me while his bullets are free.
He thinks I 'shoot some', but has no idea the type or amount of .civ training I've gotten. He likely doesn't even know what training opportunities are available to regular guys and would probably discount it anyway.
Unfortunately, I don't see him much anymore and we haven't shot together in years. I'd love the opportunity to go 'shoot some' with him. I've even thought about making him take a few days leave, putting him on a plane, paying for his class & ammo and then both us go 'shoot some' with Larry, Pat, Jason, Costa or the like. I think he would be in for a big surprise.
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