View Full Version : Glock 17 for next handgun
After looking at the various options I've decided to go with the G17 for a general purpose range plinker and HD weapon. I'm a novice to the Glock world but after firing a friend's G17 (and considering my somewhat limited budget) the G17 seems like a winner.
I'm told that this particular model is one of the more trouble-free Glocks and that new ones are the so-called "3rd Generation" models. Local prices average around $500-520 with one place selling them for $460.
For you G17 owners, have you been satisfied with the performance and reliability of this weapon?
For you G17 owners, have you been satisfied with the performance and reliability of this weapon?
Absolutely! I own six G17's. You will not be making a bad choice at all with a G17 and it would be a major bonus to pick up a new one for $460. Enjoy it man.
I'm very satisfied with the reliability and performance of my G17s (I own two of them).
I love the fact that the G17 is the original Glock, has proven itself in dozens of reliability test, holds 17 + 1 rounds and has a ton of accessory support.
However I just don't shoot the G17 as well as I do the G19. Do yourself a favor before you spend your hard earned money and shoot a G19 before you buy. Then decide which one to get first ;)
I am just the opposite, I shoot my 17 better than my 19, its all about shooting both and see what you like.
Beat Trash
11-28-07, 21:23
Can't go wrong with either the Glock 17 or 19.
If you aren't going to CCW the gun, then I'd go with the G17.
variablebinary
11-28-07, 22:05
Great gun. I love me some Glocks
My handgun of choice ;)
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e241/rmdugan84/g172.jpg
The pistol I have that is carried and fired the most is my Glock 17.
Glock 17: $480 (including tax)
Bowie Tactical Concepts
-Glock 19 grip reduction: $70
-3 dot Ameriglo sights and installation: $100
The reduction gives me the oldest and most trouble free Glock top end and the better feel and more size efficient G19 grip. I shot it quite a bit before making the modifications, but could not be more pleased. Go for it!
Fine piece of equipment. You can't go wrong.
I bought my first glock in 1990 and still shoot it to this day. I carried it for my part time law enf. job and armored car duty with no complaints. Super reliable and great firepower,you wont go wrong.
I keep thinking about picking up another handgun, but can't justify it because my 17 does everything I need it to do fine already. A big plus are the cheap and readily available parts, and the ease with which you can replace them.
TheGhostRider
11-30-07, 19:39
Love my 17... it's lean, mean and green.
Reliable as hell, easy to maintain.:)
I've been a SIG cultist for a long time, but I've recently come to like the Glock pistols too. The 9mm guns are the best, IMO.
G17 or G19 (or G26!)- you can't go wrong.
Well, went ahead and put one on layaway (as well as a couple extra mags). From the traffic in the store it seems as if everyone's trying to buy guns and hi-cap mags before the election rolls around.
I just ordered one, will have a pictorial review in a few weeks.
I just ordered one, will have a pictorial review in a few weeks.
Sounds good. I'm looking forward to your review!
I know you put one on layway so what I am about to say won't matter, but if your on a budget, the M&P pistol is a much better value. You can pick up a full size M&P for $399-$427 and S&W is offering a $50 dollar rebate and two free mags!
I also personally believe the M&P to be a better weapon/more reliable weapon (especially if you attach a weapon light to it).
C4
I know you put one on layway so what I am about to say won't matter, but if your on a budget, the M&P pistol is a much better value. You can pick up a full size M&P for $399-$427 and S&W is offering a $50 dollar rebate and two free mags!
I also personally believe the M&P to be a better weapon/more reliable weapon (especially if you attach a weapon light to it).
C4
I don't how we determine that the M&P is a more reliable weapon. It's only been out two years and you can't stack it up to a Glock that has been out 21. Besides, the G17 sets the standard in reliability that everything else has to live up to.
There has never been any reports of the G17/G19s failing with a light attached. That only happened in the G22.
Besides, I've seen a lot of issues with the M&Ps over on mp-pistol.com. They are having their teething pains which is to be expected with every new design. I love my M&P but there is no way we can say it's more reliable than the 9mm Glocks.
I don't how we determine that the M&P is a more reliable weapon. It's only been out two years and you can't stack it up to a Glock that has been out 21. Besides, the G17 sets the standard in reliability that everything else has to live up to.
There has never been any reports of the G17/G19s failing with a light attached. That only happened in the G22.
Besides, I've seen a lot of issues with the M&Ps over on mp-pistol.com. They are having their teething pains which is to be expected with every new design. I love my M&P but there is no way we can say it's more reliable than the 9mm Glocks.
When you look at the components comprised in both guns, it is easy to make that call. When you talk to an ex-Glock employee, it is easy to make that call. When you read SF's X300 documentation and it says in it that attaching a weaponlight to a Glock can cause malfunctions, you can make that call.
I have seen G17's and G19's malfunction from both a soft grip and from a weapon light attached to it. IMHO, ALL Glocks are suspectable to this issue as their frame has so much flex in it.
The Gen I M&P's did have their fair share of issues, but the latest gen of M&P's do not have any issues IMHO. The majority of the problems with the M&P's are generally always related to a QC issue (not a design flaw like with the Glock). There is a big difference between an employee not doing their job on any particular day and the entire design being suspect.
Again, remember that all my comments from being a long time Glock owner, armorer and dealer.
I am not suggesting that people sell their Glocks and buy an M&P (which is what I did), but new gun buyers need to know what the strengths and negatives are betwee the two weapons.
Make sure to read SJC's comments here about 9mm Glocks and reliability: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6461&page=5
C4
I think the claims of problematic Glock's may be a bit overstated recently (note I only speak of 9mm Glocks as the other caliber Glocks DO have too many warts to recommend them). The only pistol I could envision walking into a gun store, making a purchase and walking right out into a gunfight with would be a G17 or G19. Well, maybe an HK also. Obviously this is NOT a good idea and all prudent steps should be taken to reasonably assure that the weapon(s) you choose to trust your life with be tested with the ammo you'll carry, the accessories you need, etc. The M&P may someday deserve the reputation some are according it now but that day is not here yet. These of course are just my opinions and are based on logic and experience (lots with Glocks, relatively little with M&P's). However, a top firearms trainer has had numerous M&P's show up in his courses recently and they have had too many issues for him to recommend. His advice is to steer clear of M&P's for now. This guy (by my estimate) sees at least 100,000 rounds fired every year, so his opinion on what works, carries a lot of weight with me. He does however fully endorse Glock 9mm's (after seeing 100's of thousands of rounds fired through them) because as he says "well, they work".
I think the claims of problematic Glock's may be a bit overstated recently (note I only speak of 9mm Glocks as the other caliber Glocks DO have too many warts to recommend them). The only pistol I could envision walking into a gun store, making a purchase and walking right out into a gunfight with would be a G17 or G19. Well, maybe an HK also. Obviously this is NOT a good idea and all prudent steps should be taken to reasonably assure that the weapon(s) you choose to trust your life with be tested with the ammo you'll carry, the accessories you need, etc. The M&P may someday deserve the reputation some are according it now but that day is not here yet. These of course are just my opinions and are based on logic and experience (lots with Glocks, relatively little with M&P's). However, a top firearms trainer has had numerous M&P's show up in his courses recently and they have had too many issues for him to recommend. His advice is to steer clear of M&P's for now. This guy (by my estimate) sees at least 100,000 rounds fired every year, so his opinion on what works, carries a lot of weight with me. He does however fully endorse Glock 9mm's (after seeing 100's of thousands of rounds fired through them) because as he says "well, they work".
To counter your experience, at the Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, the majority of all the HG malfunctions were from Glocks (in all flavors and sizes). My personal Glocks have had just as many malfunctions as my 1911's (king of the feedway stoppage).
Ken Hackathorn refers to the M&P as "The pistol of the future." The gun needs no more accolades than that.
The Glock line of pistols is a very good one an much better than most out there. I and others (like Vickers and Hackathorn) feel that the M&P is the new standard in the Polymer pistol market.
C4
To counter your experience, at the Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, the majority of all the HG malfunctions were from Glocks (in all flavors and sizes). My personal Glocks have had just as many malfunctions as my 1911's (king of the feedway stoppage).
Ken Hackathorn refers to the M&P as "The pistol of the future." The gun needs no more accolades than that.
The Glock line of pistols is a very good one an much better than most out there. I and others (like Vickers and Hackathorn) feel that the M&P is the new standard in the Polymer pistol market.
C4
To counter your experience,;) :D Clint Smith before he made the switch to the XD(i know he still uses the 1911).I read that he said most glock's work right out of the box ,"And to take it out of the box and just shoot it" the most problums he has seen with glocks are the ones that have been... you guessed it ,F#6KED with,in terms of the inside parts.But again.. what does he(Clint Smith ) know.
No offense to sjc but all he covered was same tired TGZ articles.
I could equally post links to threads over mp-pistol.com where an M&P has:
1. Suffered a case rupture at the 6 o'clock position
2. Suffered FTEs from limp-wristing
3. Suffered failures to feed similar to what we've seen in the G19.
4. Dropped magazines for no apparent reason while shooting
5. Locked the slide back with rounds in the mag
6. Failed to lock the slide back when empty
7. Broken/cracked slides
8. Broken strikers
And those happened with Rev N guns.
I find it hard to believe that we're just now finding out, after 21 years, that the Glock was poorly designed. I'll carry the M&P flag but there is no way I'm going to automatically start bashing Glocks because there's a new kid on the block.
Also want to say that BOTH of my M&P 9 roll pins do move on me.I will replace them sometime,And give a report.How common are these reports of moveing roll pins on the M&P,anyone know?
Also want to say that BOTH of my M&P 9 roll pins do move on me.I will replace them sometime,And give a report.How common are these reports of moveing roll pins on the M&P,anyone know?
This is off topic but there have been reports of them moving. Start a new thread and we'll cover it.
Originally Posted by M4arc
I don't how we determine that the M&P is a more reliable weapon. It's only been out two years and you can't stack it up to a Glock that has been out 21. Besides, the G17 sets the standard in reliability that everything else has to live up to.
There has never been any reports of the G17/G19s failing with a light attached. That only happened in the G22.
Besides, I've seen a lot of issues with the M&Ps over on mp-pistol.com. They are having their teething pains which is to be expected with every new design. I love my M&P but there is no way we can say it's more reliable than the 9mm Glocks.
I agree...
I've shot the S&W and it's OK.. but that is really a stretch to say it's a more reliable pistol just cause Ken Say's So.... I know of him and respect his opinion.. but C'mon... When S&W establishes a 2 decade track record then you might be able to say that... Ken is a pretty opinionated guy and I'm fine with that.. but I've read him say some things that I just flat out disagree with (Guys who run fold down BUIS are clueless..)
I was a die hard 1911 fan and made the switch to a G17 and started shooting better right away and have had ZERO malfunctions with my pistol over thousands of rds. I can't say that about my 1911. I also experienced the roll pins moving after 300 rds with the S & W that I shot as well. Along with a nice little blister forming on my trigger finger due to the design of the trigger.
Magazines are cheaper and more plentiful
lots of accessories/holsters,etc
Shoots reliable right out of the box
a G17 is an excellent choice with a very good track record... you would be well served with one.
No offense to sjc but all he covered was same tired TGZ articles.
I could equally post links to threads over mp-pistol.com where an M&P has:
1. Suffered a case rupture at the 6 o'clock position
2. Suffered FTEs from limp-wristing
3. Suffered failures to feed similar to what we've seen in the G19.
4. Dropped magazines for no apparent reason while shooting
5. Locked the slide back with rounds in the mag
6. Failed to lock the slide back when empty
7. Broken/cracked slides
8. Broken strikers
And those happened with Rev N guns.
I find it hard to believe that we're just now finding out, after 21 years, that the Glock was poorly designed. I'll carry the M&P flag but there is no way I'm going to automatically start bashing Glocks because there's a new kid on the block.
He also listed his personal knowledge on the G19 failing (as have I).
All of the above issues can also be found everyday on GT.
The issues with Glocks have always been there, you just needed to know where to look. Glocks also had no other competition, meaning nothing to compare them too. We now have something to compare them too.
No on is bashing any weapon here. What we are doing is sharing both first hand knowledge, insider knowledge and the knowledge of two of the best instructors in the country have to say about the M&P.
The M&P is the new kid on the block and will continue to have some growing pains, but already out of the box, the M&P is addressing the known issues with Glocks. This is very important to recognize.
We can also add that the shoot ability of the M&P is superior to the Glock. The G19 VS M&P thread should answer anyones questions about this.
As I have now stated several times, the Glock is a fantastic weapon. I have owned several so I should know. I would take one over any other polymer pistol on the market (less the M&P).
C4
I agree...
I've shot the S&W and it's OK.. but that is really a stretch to say it's a more reliable pistol just cause Ken Say's So.... I know of him and respect his opinion.. but C'mon... When S&W establishes a 2 decade track record then you might be able to say that... Ken is a pretty opinionated guy and I'm fine with that.. but I've read him say some things that I just flat out disagree with (Guys who run fold down BUIS are clueless..)
I was a die hard 1911 fan and made the switch to a G17 and started shooting better right away and have had ZERO malfunctions with my pistol over thousands of rds. I can't say that about my 1911. I also experienced the roll pins moving after 300 rds with the S & W that I shot as well. Along with a nice little blister forming on my trigger finger due to the design of the trigger.
Magazines are cheaper and more plentiful
lots of accessories/holsters,etc
Shoots reliable right out of the box
a G17 is an excellent choice with a very good track record... you would be well served with one.
I would have to disagree with your comments about Ken. He has no superior in both my and many others view. If he says something is quality or is the leader in something, you can pretty much bet on it.
I have never heard Ken or read where he has said that about flip up sights. I imagine the comments were taken out of context and what he meant is that people who leave their flip sights down are idiots. This makes perfect sense.
C4
I've had good experiences with Glock 17, 26, 35. I have had bad experiences with the 22 and the 19. I can't stand the 19.
I have more rounds down range through my Glock 17 than I do through all of my other pistols, combined.
That said, if I were making the decision today, I'd get an M&P.
Glock has stagnated. They've given the market what they want to give the market, not what the market wants. S&W is working to give the market the features the market desires.
Teething problems with the M&P? Sure there are. Want to recount the number of problems there have been with Glock over the years? Redesigned extractors. Reinforced frames. The whole phase III malfunction phenomenon with NYPD. The chambers that mysteriously start coming with more support. Frame rails that cracked. That's the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there are more than that.
Is the Glock a bad choice? No. But I do think it is nearing the end of its popularity.
No offense to sjc but all he covered was same tired TGZ articles.
I could equally post links to threads over mp-pistol.com where an M&P has:
1. Suffered a case rupture at the 6 o'clock position
2. Suffered FTEs from limp-wristing
3. Suffered failures to feed similar to what we've seen in the G19.
4. Dropped magazines for no apparent reason while shooting
5. Locked the slide back with rounds in the mag
6. Failed to lock the slide back when empty
7. Broken/cracked slides
8. Broken strikers
And those happened with Rev N guns.
I find it hard to believe that we're just now finding out, after 21 years, that the Glock was poorly designed. I'll carry the M&P flag but there is no way I'm going to automatically start bashing Glocks because there's a new kid on the block.
FWIW, I'd bet most of those problems are with the shooter, just as they are with the Glock.
The bottom line is this: I love my M&P and nobody on this board has gotten more people to try and buy an M&P than me so I think that speaks for itself.
However, there are hundreds of thousands of Glocks are in existence and God only knows how many millions upon millions of rounds have been fired through them. S&W had the opportunity to look back on 21 years of dominance and make changes. Hindsight is always 20/20.
But I still don't see how you can argue that all this time the Glock was a flawed design, piss-poor engineering and unreliable. It baffles me.
ONLY TIME WILL TELL if the M&P is reliable. No amount of Dean Spears or ex-Glock employees will change that fact. Time and rounds that is the only way we'll know for sure.
In the meantime I'll do my best to help that process along ;)
FWIW, I'd bet most of those problems are with the shooter, just as they are with the Glock.
When I read of people having weapon malfunctions and issues, especially from handguns of reputable make (Glock, Sig, H&K, S&W, etc.....), on the internet, I honestly think that about 90% of the time or more, we are not getting the entire story. I put very little weight on internet reports. I've seen some of it first hand, where someone talked bad about an item on the net, only to find out there were other mitigating circumstances not being revealed, user error, etc.......
Another aspect is where someone reports a problem, one or two others chime in that they hav that problem, and suddenly those 2 or 3 examples are the status quo for that item, regardless that those my be the only couple out of thousands with that issue. Perspective and context is completely lost.
I've had good experiences with Glock 17, 26, 35. I have had bad experiences with the 22 and the 19. I can't stand the 19.
I have more rounds down range through my Glock 17 than I do through all of my other pistols, combined.
That said, if I were making the decision today, I'd get an M&P.
Glock has stagnated. They've given the market what they want to give the market, not what the market wants. S&W is working to give the market the features the market desires.
Teething problems with the M&P? Sure there are. Want to recount the number of problems there have been with Glock over the years? Redesigned extractors. Reinforced frames. The whole phase III malfunction phenomenon with NYPD. The chambers that mysteriously start coming with more support. Frame rails that cracked. That's the ones I can think of off the top of my head, but I know there are more than that.
Is the Glock a bad choice? No. But I do think it is nearing the end of its popularity.
Agree and very good post. I differ though that I like the G19 over the G17.
Glock believes that their weapons are "perfection." This just isn't the case. There are always room for improvement IMHO.
Mark this day down in the history books. The S&W M&P will regain control of the LE market and the Civy market will follow.
C4
The bottom line is this: I love my M&P and nobody on this board has gotten more people to try and buy an M&P than me so I think that speaks for itself.
However, there are hundreds of thousands of Glocks are in existence and God only knows how many millions upon millions of rounds have been fired through them. S&W had the opportunity to look back on 21 years of dominance and make changes. Hindsight is always 20/20.
But I still don't see how you can argue that all this time the Glock was a flawed design, piss-poor engineering and unreliable. It baffles me.
ONLY TIME WILL TELL if the M&P is reliable. No amount of Dean Spears or ex-Glock employees will change that fact. Time and rounds that is the only way we'll know for sure.
In the meantime I'll do my best to help that process along ;)
Glock pioneered the polymer pistol revolution (no doubt). S&W has looked at what they have done and fixed the bad parts, and adopted the good parts.
I have always known that Glock's were not "perfection" and have always known about the many problems with them. The thing of it is though, at that time, is that they were the best (no competition). This isn't the case any more.
For those that disagree with me, here is where my opinion comes from:
1. Glock Armorer
2. S&W M&P Armorer
3. Have owned the G17, G26, G19
4. Own M&P Full Size
5. Sell M&P's
6. Sell Glock's
7. Talk with Glock employees (off the record about issues)
8. Talk with S&W employees (off the record about issues)
9. Talk to two of the best firearms instructors in the world (Vickers & Hackathorn) about the M&P and its superiority.
10. Personally witness (first hand knowledge) Glock's malfunctioning in pistol, carbine and low light classes.
Here comes the rude part (which I am apologizing for now). Please look at my experience level and my contacts when dealing with these two weapons and look at your experience level. Do they match up? If they do not, then you might reconsider your thought that I don't know what I am talking about. :)
Marc, I still luv ya man (even though you are playing devils advocate). :D
C4
The bottom line is this: I love my M&P and nobody on this board has gotten more people to try and buy an M&P than me so I think that speaks for itself.
I can vouch for that :D
But I still don't see how you can argue that all this time the Glock was a flawed design, piss-poor engineering and unreliable. It baffles me.
That seems like a ridiculous statement to me as well. Millions have been served well by there Glocks, me included.
In the meantime I'll do my best to help that process along ;)
A fine job your doing, M4arc!
Agree and very good post. I differ though that I like the G19 over the G17.
Glock believes that their weapons are "perfection." This just isn't the case. There are always room for improvement IMHO.
Mark this day down in the history books. The S&W M&P will regain control of the LE market and the Civy market will follow.
C4
As soon as we(S&W)Work the bugs out ,of our M&P.:p ;) :D (j/k)
As soon as we(S&W)Work the bugs out ,of our M&P.:p ;) :D (j/k)
I really don't know of any major bugs with the current production M&P. More and more LE agencies are switching to the M&P so I think it has already started.
C4
From what I've heard and read so far, the 9mm Glocks seem to be the most trouble-free. Regarding the M&P series, does one caliber appear to exhibit less problems than others?
I really don't know of any major bugs with the current production M&P. More and more LE agencies are switching to the M&P so I think it has already started.
C4
I know i was just rubbing(TYPE O)(A BIG J/K ON THAT REMARK).... i mean busting your Balls.:D ;)
The M&P is a nice, cheap pistol. But it's just a more evolved and refined derivative of S&W's SIGMA abortion of an attempt to copy the Glock. Don't get me wrong, American handguns have their charm. But only the Teutons deliver handgun perfection. :D
The M&P is a nice, cheap pistol. But it's just a more evolved and refined derivative of S&W's SIGMA abortion of an attempt to copy the Glock. Don't get me wrong, American handguns have their charm. But only the Teutons deliver handgun perfection. :D
Now that is BS on a level requiring a track hoe to move through. :rolleyes:
Slater ,just want to say congrats on your new Glock 17, it is a DAMN fine pistol.:cool:
If the G17 fits you and your needs, great.
If it doesn't, then the M&P looks to be a good alternative.
New Mexico State Police, supposedly put 20-25000 rounds thru a 357 Sig version, and have adopted them. They also, supposedly are not to happy with the Glocks in the same calibre, nad the lack of support they've recieved from Glock.
This was told to me, by one of the police supply dealers, with some good contacts in the various PD's. take it for what its worth.
What really gets me, is the total denial of some that the Glock can be improved on. On one forum, it was declared the only reason people push the M&P, is because they are American made:rolleyes:
Some of the same arguments made in favor of the Glock, and against the M&P are the same ones that were made in the Glock vs. 1911, and the M16 vs. the M14 arguments.
Longevity and time of service aside, is it possible, at least in theory the M&P is a more reliable design? Could be, I'm not an engineer. But, it could be, and we should explore that.
That doesn't automatically negate the Glocks service, although, IMHO that argument, only goes so far. Do we really have an accurate round count, and malfunction rate of all those Glocks in service? How many of them really get shot enough, to really make an assesment? I like Glocks, but just because its been in service for 21 years, doesn't make it omnipotent.
Look at it this way, the same guys that declare the 1911(jenuflect) are beyond reproach, and point to its near 100 years of service, are some of the same guys who still hate the M16, even though it now has the longest service life of any US service rifle. Yet, they lement the passing of the second shortest serving rifle, you can't have it both ways.
I personaly beleive the M&P is a better gun, if for no other reason then you can fit the grip to the user. I also like the trigger better, but thats just me. Teething problems aside(what gun hasn't had them?) I think you at least owe it to yourself to try one.
Bob
crowkiller
12-02-07, 19:15
No offense to sjc but all he covered was same tired TGZ articles.
I could equally post links to threads over mp-pistol.com where an M&P has:
1. Suffered a case rupture at the 6 o'clock position
2. Suffered FTEs from limp-wristing
3. Suffered failures to feed similar to what we've seen in the G19.
4. Dropped magazines for no apparent reason while shooting
5. Locked the slide back with rounds in the mag
6. Failed to lock the slide back when empty
7. Broken/cracked slides
8. Broken strikers
And those happened with Rev N guns.
I find it hard to believe that we're just now finding out, after 21 years, that the Glock was poorly designed. I'll carry the M&P flag but there is no way I'm going to automatically start bashing Glocks because there's a new kid on the block.
Well freakin crap! I have a MP40 rev N still new in the box I hope I dont end have'n to send it back when I get around to shooting it. Its got MPM*** serial # it does have the #2 mag release so maybe Ill be lucky there.
From what I've heard and read so far, the 9mm Glocks seem to be the most trouble-free. Regarding the M&P series, does one caliber appear to exhibit less problems than others?
Have not see any one caliber stand out from another either way.
C4
The M&P is a nice, cheap pistol. But it's just a more evolved and refined derivative of S&W's SIGMA abortion of an attempt to copy the Glock. Don't get me wrong, American handguns have their charm. But only the Teutons deliver handgun perfection. :D
This is truly ignorant.
Let me ask you something, have you owned an M&P? Been through the armorers course for it? How bout Glock? Have you been through their armorers course?
Please go through both courses, own both guns, attend training classes with both guns and then get back to us.
C4
This is getting dumb.....
To the OP... get the G17. It's a good pistol and a proven design.
To counter your experience, at the Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, the majority of all the HG malfunctions were from Glocks (in all flavors and sizes). My personal Glocks have had just as many malfunctions as my 1911's (king of the feedway stoppage).
Ken Hackathorn refers to the M&P as "The pistol of the future." The gun needs no more accolades than that.
The Glock line of pistols is a very good one an much better than most out there. I and others (like Vickers and Hackathorn) feel that the M&P is the new standard in the Polymer pistol market.
C4
Grant it's somewhat disingenuous to quote both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers on this issue since Larry Vickers said on numerous occasions (at the same low light class) that we're in a Glock world and everything is plaiyng catch-up. I will admit that he told me that he prefers the M&P 45 over the Glock 21. Ken Hackathorn conversely said that if he had to pick one gun to go overseas with it would be the Glock 17.
The M&P may or may not be the Glocks equal but in the end doesnt the individual's comfort level regarding the feel of the grip and pull of the trigger (the M&P feels better than my G22 in my hands but i hate the trigger) really determine whether cash should be spent in one direction or the other. After all, don't we all make these choices when we skip H&K's, Sig Sauer's and Ruger's excellent (polymer) choices over the Glock?
To counter your experience, at the Vickers/Hackathorn low light class, the majority of all the HG malfunctions were from Glocks (in all flavors and sizes). My personal Glocks have had just as many malfunctions as my 1911's (king of the feedway stoppage).
Ken Hackathorn refers to the M&P as "The pistol of the future." The gun needs no more accolades than that.
The Glock line of pistols is a very good one an much better than most out there. I and others (like Vickers and Hackathorn) feel that the M&P is the new standard in the Polymer pistol market.
C4
Disingenuous ,Maybe Grant needs to stop bringing other well know trainers into his posts and makeing statements about what these trainers are saying(Vickers/Hackathorn) when maybe Grant is not 100% sure where they stand on this.
C4IGrant
For those that disagree with me, here is where my opinion comes from:
1. Glock Armorer
2. S&W M&P Armorer
3. Have owned the G17, G26, G19
4. Own M&P Full Size
5. Sell M&P's
6. Sell Glock's
7. Talk with Glock employees (off the record about issues)
8. Talk with S&W employees (off the record about issues)
9. Talk to two of the best firearms instructors in the world (Vickers & Hackathorn) about the M&P and its superiority.
10. Personally witness (first hand knowledge) Glock's malfunctioning in pistol, carbine and low light classes.
Just cause I'm feeling a little playful today.. let me address a few of these since you brought them up.
1&2: That's nice and all..(I mean that.. knowledge is always a good thing) but I have never felt that I am lesser of a shooter because of never taking an Armorers course on any weapon.
3: Me too..(G-17) and have somewhat of an intimate relationship with mine...
4: just shot one for over 300 rds..
5&6: Not really relevant to the discussion.
7 & 8: I'm sure there is good info and no so good info mixed in there.
9: I agree, they are highly experienced and I take quite a bit of what they say to heart..but no one has a lock on everything... and I'm sure they would agree with that.
10: I can say that I have rarely ever seen a malfunction based on my experiences and the experiences of a lot of others...
I'm not saying the M&P sucks.. far from it.. I liked how it shot, it was accurate, I liked the trigger rest and the grip and how it pointed.. I reckon I could shoot pretty well with it.
But is it the end all be all???? C'mon.. what pistol can make that claim..
Yes it's great that an American company is now making a descent polymer frame pistol for the American market, but you give it wayyy to may absolutes for such a new kid on the block that has yet to be proven in battler so to speak.
I respect your views and your knowledge, but in this case you come of like a huge "fanboy" on this pistol.. If it's really that good.. in time, it will not need any sales pitch from anyone.. it will stand on it's own merits...
This is truly ignorant.
Let me ask you something, have you owned an M&P? Been through the armorers course for it? How bout Glock? Have you been through their armorers course?
Please go through both courses, own both guns, attend training classes with both guns and then get back to us.
C4
You'll notice my comment was tongue-in-cheek. And I don't speak out about firearms I'm not familiar with.
C4IGrant
Just cause I'm feeling a little playful today.. let me address a few of these since you brought them up.
1&2: That's nice and all..(I mean that.. knowledge is always a good thing) but I have never felt that I am lesser of a shooter because of never taking an Armorers course on any weapon.
3: Me too..(G-17) and have somewhat of an intimate relationship with mine...
4: just shot one for over 300 rds..
5&6: Not really relevant to the discussion.
7 & 8: I'm sure there is good info and no so good info mixed in there.
9: I agree, they are highly experienced and I take quite a bit of what they say to heart..but no one has a lock on everything... and I'm sure they would agree with that.
10: I can say that I have rarely ever seen a malfunction based on my experiences and the experiences of a lot of others...
I'm not saying the M&P sucks.. far from it.. I liked how it shot, it was accurate, I liked the trigger rest and the grip and how it pointed.. I reckon I could shoot pretty well with it.
But is it the end all be all???? C'mon.. what pistol can make that claim..
Yes it's great that an American company is now making a descent polymer frame pistol for the American market, but you give it wayyy to may absolutes for such a new kid on the block that has yet to be proven in battler so to speak.
I respect your views and your knowledge, but in this case you come of like a huge "fanboy" on this pistol.. If it's really that good.. in time, it will not need any sales pitch from anyone.. it will stand on it's own merits...
+1, like indeed the Glock has over the past 21 years. But I'm sure I'll pick up an M&P sometime down the road.
Robb Jensen
12-02-07, 21:02
You'll notice my comment was tongue-in-cheek. And I don't speak out about firearms I'm not familiar with.
Yet you posted the following:
The M&P is a nice, cheap pistol. But it's just a more evolved and refined derivative of S&W's SIGMA abortion of an attempt to copy the Glock. Don't get me wrong, American handguns have their charm. But only the Teutons deliver handgun perfection. :D
You really don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from further posting on this subject, you're making yourself look more and more like a fool. Some may have already come to this conclusion.
Yet you posted the following:
You really don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from further posting on this subject, you're making yourself look more and more like a fool. Some may have already come to this conclusion.
Really? A fool? You're saying the M&P has no lineage in the SIGMA? Or that German pistols are all mediocre? I owned a cheapie SIGMA and shot the M&P. Do I need an armorer's course and your personal approval to voice an opinion? Shyte, the internet sure is some serious business these days.
To the OP:
You'll enjoy the Glock 17, and the magazines are nice and cheap. One thing I don't like about the Glock is the standard plastic front sight. Would highly recommend you take a close look at that when you receive the 17. I ordered mine with the Glock night sights.
Really? A fool? You're saying the M&P has no lineage in the SIGMA? Or that German pistols are all mediocre? I owned a cheapie SIGMA and operated the M&P. Do I need an armorers course and your personal approval to voice an opinion? Shyte, the internet sure is some serious business these days.
You're the one making the claim that the M&P has lineage in the SIGMA. If you make a claim, back it up with some proof.
Me, I think it probably has more lineage in the Walther P99. But then again, I'm not claiming the M&P is a rehashed P99.
To the original poster:
For you G17 owners, have you been satisfied with the performance and reliability of this weapon?
Yes, I've found the G17 to be reliable and a good shooter.
They aren't right for everyone, but I don't think anyone can tell you that the Glock 17 is a bad choice, if it works for you. And only you can decide if it's a good fit for you. It's certainly not a bad choice. If you said you wanted a Hi-Point pistol because you liked the way it fit your hand, we'd tell you it didn't matter how it felt because it's not trustworthy as a defensive firearm -- not so with the Glock, if it works for you, it will function for you.
As for the M&P, I'm not sure how we got off on that since you asked about the G17, but a lot of the biggest M&P fans were Glock shooters a year or two ago. That says a lot for the M&P, but it's because those guys tried them out and found that they were a better fit for them. And most of them still really like Glocks.
If you're just looking for a new pistol and don't have any particular preference, you owe it to yourself to try out the Glocks and M&Ps and any other reputable, known-quality pistol that might fit your need. One person may shoot a Glock like an extension of of their body, the next might be better off just throwing it at an attacker. Everybody's different.
Since it sounds like you are already wanting a Glock 17 and are just wanting to know if it is a quality pistol that will perform at a satisfactory level, then the answer is YES. You won't go wrong by having a G17 in the safe (or on your hip). And if you decide later that you don't like it, or find something that works better (and that's certainly possible), it'll hold enough value to trade toward what you like better.
Robb Jensen
12-03-07, 04:33
Really? A fool? You're saying the M&P has no lineage in the SIGMA? Or that German pistols are all mediocre? I owned a cheapie SIGMA and operated the M&P. Do I need an armorers course and your personal approval to voice an opinion? Shyte, the internet sure is some serious business these days.
"It's is better to be thought a fool and remain silent then to open ones mouth and remove all doubt".--Abraham Lincoln
There is zero lineage from the SIGMA used on the M&P pistol. The only thing even remotely used was the data collected on the ergonomics that they spent about a million dollars to study (this has nothing to do with how the gun operates), this data is now used on all S&W handguns.
Where did I say German pistols are mediocre? I like the HK pistols but lets take the new HK45 which sales for $1K, is it twice as good as say a Glock 21SF which sales for $575?
This website is not another BARFCOM, the bullshit isn't tolerated here, if you want to post bullshit go somewhere else.
The G17 is probably the most proven and reliable out of the box 9 mm in history. As noted, it is about the only pistol I'd be willing to take to a fight without extensive testing. The G19 is the next best Glock, but I would want to put 500-1000 rounds through it before I'd trust it. Having said that, what does LAV carry...that's right, a G19. Also as noted, Larry and Ken are also on record supporting the M&P; the M&P is likely to be in the future, what the SAA was in our Nation's past... The best .40 pistol I've used is the M&P--what's there not to like about 15+1 rounds of 180 JHP in a reliable and ergonomic pistol. And for restrictive states like CA, the .45 ACP M&P is about the perfect pistol. The only pistols I will personally be purchasing in the near future are M&P's. Having said that, until we see a whole bunch of durable, reliable M&P's reaching 100,000 round counts the G17 still has the edge in reputation as a combat/duty proven weapon...
The G17 is probably the most proven and reliable out of the box 9 mm in history. As noted, it is about the only pistol I'd be willing to take to a fight without extensive testing. The G19 is the next best Glock, but I would want to put 500-1000 rounds through it before I'd trust it. Having said that, what does LAV carry...that's right, a G19. Also as noted, Larry and Ken are also on record supporting the M&P; the M&P is likely to be in the future, what the SAA was in our Nation's past... The best .40 pistol I've used is the M&P--what's there not to like about 15+1 rounds of 180 JHP in a reliable and ergonomic pistol. And for restrictive states like CA, the .45 ACP M&P is about the perfect pistol. The only pistols I will personally be purchasing in the near future are M&P's. Having said that, until we see a whole bunch of durable, reliable M&P's reaching 100,000 round counts the G17 still has the edge in reputation as a combat/duty proven weapon...
Why would LAV STILL carry a Glock, when From what Grant is saying that he has talked to LAV and LAV has said that the M&P is a better pistol.:confused:
Grant it"s somewhat disingenuous to quote both Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers on this issue since Larry Vickers said on numerous occasions (at the same low light class) that we're in a Glock world and everything is plaiyng catch-up.
Actually its not "disingenouse." We are living in a Glock world. He didn't say that because he believes that the Glock is the best weapon. What he meant by that is that the Glock is very common. Mcdonalds is common as well.
I will admit that he told me that he prefers the M&P 45 over the Glock 21. Ken Hackathorn conversely said that if he had to pick one gun to go overseas with it would be the Glock 17.
Glock and HK are about your only choices when overseas. M&P's are not available. So it makes sense why Ken has said that (and yes I have heard Ken say that and understand why he said it).
Thank you for proving my both my points.
The M&P may or may not be the Glocks equal but in the end doesnt the individual's comfort level regarding the feel of the grip and pull of the trigger (the M&P feels better than my G22t in my hands but i hate the trigger) really determine whether cash should be spent in one direction or the other. After all, don't we all make these choices when we skip H&K's, Sig Sauer's and Ruger's excellent (polymer) choices over the Glock?
I do agree that we all have our personal preferences.
C4
Disingenuous ,Maybe Grant needs to stop bringing other well know trainers into his posts and makeing statements about what these trainers are saying(Vickers/Hackathorn) when maybe Grant is not 100% sure where they stand on this.
Grant is always 100% certain about what he has said and the many hundreds of conversations he has had with said instructors. ;)
C4
Grant is always 100% certain about what he has said and the many hundreds of conversations he has had with said instructors. ;)
C4
I thought we just when over this in my thread.;) :D :p
Just cause I'm feeling a little playful today.. let me address a few of these since you brought them up.
1&2: That's nice and all..(I mean that.. knowledge is always a good thing) but I have never felt that I am lesser of a shooter because of never taking an Armorers course on any weapon.
Not going through an amorers course doesn't make you a "lesser shooter," but it doesn't give you all the details about the weapon, issues that the manufacturers likes to keep quiet and other interesting pieces of info.
3: Me too..(G-17) and have somewhat of an intimate relationship with mine...
4: just shot one for over 300 rds..
5&6: Not really relevant to the discussion.
300rds is not enought IMHO. You have to actually own both weapons and spend more time with each one (as I have).
5 & 6 are relevant because it proves that I sell both weapons and my statements are not biased because I only sell one of the brands.
7 & 8: I'm sure there is good info and no so good info mixed in there.
9: I agree, they are highly experienced and I take quite a bit of what they say to heart..but no one has a lock on everything... and I'm sure they would agree with that.
Ken and Larry might not have a "lock on everything," but they are about as close as a human can get. Their opinions on gear and weapons is always right on the money.
10: I can say that I have rarely ever seen a malfunction based on my experiences and the experiences of a lot of others...
I'm not saying the M&P sucks.. far from it.. I liked how it shot, it was accurate, I liked the trigger rest and the grip and how it pointed.. I reckon I could shoot pretty well with it.
But is it the end all be all???? C'mon.. what pistol can make that claim..
The issue is that no one ever said that it is the end all pistol. I have a 1911 for that. ;) The M&P is just superior to all other Polymer pistols (IMHO) and I can back up the reasons why based on the inner workings of the pistol, ergonomics, etc.
Yes it's great that an American company is now making a descent polymer frame pistol for the American market, but you give it wayyy to may absolutes for such a new kid on the block that has yet to be proven in battler so to speak.
I respect your views and your knowledge, but in this case you come of like a huge "fanboy" on this pistol.. If it's really that good.. in time, it will not need any sales pitch from anyone.. it will stand on it's own merits...
The M&P weapon is and has been on the streets for some time now and is already proving itself. In the near future, look to see more and more .Gov agencies pick it up.
I am a fan boy for the M&P as people have believed that Glock equals "perfection" and that just isn't true. Someone needs to point out the issues that Glocks have and since I have owned a Glock for many years, it might as well be me.
C4
To the original poster:
Yes, I've found the G17 to be reliable and a good shooter.
They aren't right for everyone, but I don't think anyone can tell you that the Glock 17 is a bad choice, if it works for you. And only you can decide if it's a good fit for you. It's certainly not a bad choice. If you said you wanted a Hi-Point pistol because you liked the way it fit your hand, we'd tell you it didn't matter how it felt because it's not trustworthy as a defensive firearm -- not so with the Glock, if it works for you, it will function for you.
As for the M&P, I'm not sure how we got off on that since you asked about the G17, but a lot of the biggest M&P fans were Glock shooters a year or two ago. That says a lot for the M&P, but it's because those guys tried them out and found that they were a better fit for them. And most of them still really like Glocks.
If you're just looking for a new pistol and don't have any particular preference, you owe it to yourself to try out the Glocks and M&Ps and any other reputable, known-quality pistol that might fit your need. One person may shoot a Glock like an extension of of their body, the next might be better off just throwing it at an attacker. Everybody's different.
Since it sounds like you are already wanting a Glock 17 and are just wanting to know if it is a quality pistol that will perform at a satisfactory level, then the answer is YES. You won't go wrong by having a G17 in the safe (or on your hip). And if you decide later that you don't like it, or find something that works better (and that's certainly possible), it'll hold enough value to trade toward what you like better.
You kind of nailed it. A lot of us were Glock shooters and have seen the light and switched. This should tell people something right there.
C4
Why would LAV STILL carry a Glock, when From what Grant is saying that he has talked to LAV and LAV has said that the M&P is a better pistol.:confused:
As I have already said in this thread, Larry carries the pistol that he most commonly sees in a class. He does NOT carry it because he thinks it is the best.
C4
I thought we just when over this in my thread.;) :D :p
I thought so too, but you seem to think otherwise so I have to back up my comments over and over.
C4
In the near future, look to see more and more .Gov agencies pick it up.
C4
I am not referring to the M&P in particular when I say:
This is not always a positive indicator. Often, there's a lot more that goes into selection than just outright "best", even in agencies that purport "best value" selection. I've spent almost my entire adult life working for Uncle Sugar in various capacities and just because a .gov/.mil does something don't necessarily make it right. I assume most folks are aware of this.
I am not referring to the M&P in particular when I say:
This is not always a positive indicator. Often, there's a lot more that goes into selection than just outright "best", even in agencies that purport "best value" selection. I've spent almost my entire adult life working for Uncle Sugar in various capacities and just because a .gov/.mil does something don't necessarily make it right. I assume most folks are aware of this.
This is correct, but when they are using Glocks and drop them to go to the M&P, this should be viewed as a clue.
C4
I thought so too, but you seem to think otherwise so I have to back up my comments over and over.
C4
No,I posted on this thread yesterday,(last night) not today Thats why i put a wink,smile today.
This is correct, but when they are using Glocks and drop them to go to the M&P, this should be viewed as a clue.
C4
Ah yes, but a clue to what...
As stated, I wasn't referring to the M&P, or even to firearms necessarily. To my (some would say cynical) mind, an agency dropping pistol X for pistol Y could mean a lot of different things.
Ah yes, but a clue to what...
As stated, I wasn't referring to the M&P, or even to firearms necessarily. To my (some would say cynical) mind, an agency dropping pistol X for pistol Y could mean a lot of different things.
If an angency runs a very "popular" pistol and goes to something else, I generally believe that they have a good reason for it.
C4
Matt Edwards
12-03-07, 16:11
Mr. J,
I own a few Glocks. As per everyone else on this thread, they are good guns. You made a good choice. We do live in a Glock world. For now...
I am one of meny that thinks the MP IS an upgrade in both design and ergonomics. Does that mean I suddenly don't like or trust my Glocks? Hardly, but I am not blind to the fact that there may be a new serriff in town.
Eventually, I'll have a fire team of M&Ps. Untill then I won't lose any sleep over it. The one thing the Glock has over it is 20 years of faithful service. That is enough for now. I'll bet the M&P will surpass that...but ONLY time will tell.
You have a great gun. I'd go so far as to say easily one of the best. Shoot it untill it breaks. (I did) and then shoot it some more.
For me, the ulitmate Glock is the 19. Although there is a somwhat comprohensive and lengthy thread on this very forum about the M&P 9 vs the G19, because of the lenght of the MP butt and its "ever so slight" increase in width, The G19 still holds a solid seat in the world of 9mm "plastic" guns. My Glock 17 is slightly concerned as to its disposition.
There is no need to look for vindacation here. You own a 9mm Glock. Some may prefer something else, but none will tell you that you didn't get a great combat pistol. Easily, one of the best.
Matt
Agreed.
I handled an M&P .40 this weekend. I was really surprised by how excited I was about the MP45 - I have gone from the gun-nut to gun-as-a-tool mindset, but playing w/ one brought my gun nuttery back in force.
What I like about the MP's is that, as I understand it, they are designed to fire their cartridges, vice shooting .40's out of 9's or .45's out of 10mms. Ergonomics are far superior.
My G17 will soldier on for some time, and as I already have a BHP I see no need for another 9mm (except for another 17, or MAYBE a 26).
While I have no doubt that the MPs are great and that bugs are being worked, I like to let things percolate for a while. The G17 is the most recent design I currently own. For Smith to supplant Glock they will also have to match Glock's support network.
+1 also on .gov use not being a gold standard. Look at the M9 - while much maligned, we could have done better. Or the teething issues w/ the AR in Vietnam. I hope the MP rocks the world,, but it will take years, by my personal standards, to match Glocks "street cred".
the1911fan
12-05-07, 19:02
M&P's are solid guns in all calibers (I've T&E'd all calibers and have not shot millions of rounds through em but enough to formulate an opinion) ...my only question is...why the hell did it take S&W so long to come up with a line that competes with Glock...were they asleep in the 90's? Glock's problem is that (like a previous poster noted) they have not updated or improved upon their design ..not ergonomically and not functionally...and they will lose their huge USA market share within 5 years from now...they can only blame themselves for it and continue complaining that people rip off their "perfect" design.
I don't know if it's just a NE Ohio thing but many NE Ohio LE still hold S&W in contempt for "the deal" they made back when Clinton was Pres.
M&P's are solid guns in all calibers (I've T&E'd all calibers and have not shot millions of rounds through em but enough to formulate an opinion) ...my only question is...why the hell did it take S&W so long to come up with a line that competes with Glock...were they asleep in the 90's? Glock's problem is that (like a previous poster noted) they have not updated or improved upon their design ..not ergonomically and not functionally...and they will lose their huge USA market share within 5 years from now...they can only blame themselves for it and continue complaining that people rip off their "perfect" design.
I don't know if it's just a NE Ohio thing but many NE Ohio LE still hold S&W in contempt for "the deal" they made back when Clinton was Pres.
Asleep at the wheel or poor leadership was most likely the cause of their issues in the 90's.
Cinci and believe Columbus has switched to the M&P so it appears that Ohio LE is coming around.
C4
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.