View Full Version : Massad Ayoob and the .357sig again....
Still touting the .357sig I see :rolleyes:
http://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/GUNS/GUNS1211/?page=26
I will be the first person to call all manner of bullshit on the snake story. Its laughable that he would print that and sign his name to it. I'm seriously sitting here laughing. My ass literally may fall off!
"When one of the other rounds barely missed the snakes head, the venomous serpents just wiggled away. Yet when a .357sig missed close to the moccasin's head in the water, the snake shuddered an died."
Nephrology
11-25-11, 22:28
.357 SIG is one of those calibers that I wish would unexist. Not because of what it is but what it represents to so many. Not much better than 9mm but its proponents think it is .45 ACP and then some. You have no idea how many times i've heard people drool over 357 SIG and badmouth 9mm in the same breath.
I carried a DA/SA P229 .357 SIG for four years. Never have I been so underwhelmed by a handgun's performance.
"When one of the other rounds barely missed the snakes head, the venomous serpents just wiggled away. Yet when a .357sig missed close to the moccasin's head in the water, the snake shuddered an died."
Fail-Safe,
Sounds like Ayoob has been reading Courtney.
Perhaps they could collaborate on a paper dealing with distant BPW effects in serpents...call it "Snakes in a bucket: BPW in pit vipers."
:sarcastic:
Fail-Safe,
Sounds like Ayoob has been reading Courtney.
Perhaps they could collaborate on a paper dealing with distant BPW effects in serpents...call it "Snakes in a bucket: BPW in pit vipers."
:sarcastic:
Speaking of Courtney.....I haven't seen him around in a long time. I still laugh when I think about his story of stuffing a small deer in a water barrel and shooting into it to try and rendure the deer unconcious through his magical ballistic pressure wave.:D
Eurodriver
11-26-11, 08:26
Anyone wanna post up some factual data regarding the .357 Sig's terminal performance compared to 9mm or .40 or even .45?
I've got no dog in this fight. I stick to 9mm and .45, but I have a friend with .357 Sig who thinks its a .44 mag and then some.
I'm seeing a 250 FPS increase over the standard 115gr round.
Speaking of Courtney.....I haven't seen him around in a long time. I still laugh when I think about his story of stuffing a small deer in a water barrel and shooting into it to try and rendure the deer unconcious through his magical ballistic pressure wave.:D
Yeah, his material is pretty comical as are his "followers". Can't help but think of him as probable reincarnation of one of the Three Stooges; my money is on Curley. :)
Haven't seen much of him either. Good times.
Anyone wanna post up some factual data regarding the .357 Sig's terminal performance compared to 9mm or .40 or even .45?
I've got no dog in this fight. I stick to 9mm and .45, but I have a friend with .357 Sig who thinks its a .44 mag and then some.
I'm seeing a 250 FPS increase over the standard 115gr round.
Well, there is this classic:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/ballisticchart7rk.jpg
Not "data" per se, but telling. I recall the .357 has some improved performance with intermediate barriers (making it the choice for some PDs who are likely to shoot into cars, such as State Troopers) over the 9mm, but I don't recall how it does compared to other calibers on that score.
Never considered the .357 Sigs cons to outweigh its pros, and or, other calibers do it better for less $$$ on well vetted platforms. That's my understanding anyway.
Was never impressed with the .357 Sig chambered guns I fired and wanted one even less after firing, but that's me.
It's a helluva fun round to shoot on the range, and it penetrates hard barriers better, but to say it is head and shoulders above a good 9mm is ignorance. It's just another choice. One I think is a lot more fun than other choices for a range gun if you don't mind feeding it.
I am a recovering energy/velocity addict and the 357sig feeds that addiction perferctly. Even reputable manufacturer's continue on the velocity bandwagon. From Corbon's website...
"Faster (Expansion is key, but Velocity is KING!)
High Velocity –The answer to reliable bullet expansion. High velocity is obtained by optimum choices in gun powder selection. The greater the velocity, the more violently the bullet will expand. This causes enhanced shock to the nervous system and increases the chance of incapacitation. High-powered rifles are known to have the highest velocity. That is why a rifle’s stopping power is
much more efficient than a handgun. When choosing a handgun for self-defense a person should choose ammunition that can supply the highest amount of velocity, safely. Bullet expansion in conjunction with high velocity is what creates a larger than
caliber wound channel. It also facilitates transfer of energy and increases tissue damage. Bullets must expand every time for optimal performance. Hollowpoints that do not expand will stop fights with one shot, but only 60-70% of the time. Hollowpoints that expand will come in at 75-90%. Hollowpoints that expand
violently are 85-95% effective."
There was a time when Ayoob's advices seemed to make sense (I did not know any better).
Nowadays, he shamelessly pimps himself to the gun rag crowds and the gun manufacturers. It is one thing to be a good businessman, but another to propagate that crap.
His 357 SIG comment would have made me smile, now I just want to :bad:
The only thing to rival the stopping power of the 357Sig is the knock down power of the 45ACP. I guess if you hit an assailant in the pinky toe with the 357Sig he will die on the spot from the temporary wound cavity just like if you were to hit someone in the pinky finger with a 45 they would be body slammed to the ground with Chuck Norris like force.
Anyone who chooses to shoot a handgun round because of its awesome power to convert a near miss into a body slam is an outright idiot. I am an died in the wool accuracy fan and firmly believe that accuracy will always beat power. Choose a good round that you can get on target fast and stay on target with and you'll be better served than picking something that you can only hit marginally with. If that's 357Sig or 9mm or 45 or 44mag.... so be it. Hell I'd much rather have someone miss me with a 50BMG a thousand times than hit me once with a 22LR.
Well, there is this classic:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/ballisticchart7rk.jpg
Not "data" per se, but telling. I recall the .357 has some improved performance with intermediate barriers (making it the choice for some PDs who are likely to shoot into cars, such as State Troopers) over the 9mm, but I don't recall how it does compared to other calibers on that score.
Never considered the .357 Sigs cons to outweigh its pros, and or, other calibers do it better for less $$$ on well vetted platforms. That's my understanding anyway.
Was never impressed with the .357 Sig chambered guns I fired and wanted one even less after firing, but that's me.
From what i've read about ballistic gel shots and pistol rounds is they aren't as significant as just looking at a picture of the temporary cavity. The temporary cavity isn't formed at such a velocity to cause permanant damage, as would be with a rifle round.
None of those gel shots are really that different from any one of the others.
None of those gel shots are really that different from any one of the others.
Which I would attribute to the inroads made in the last decade in handgun ammo development; now a 9mm can give you very similar wounding performance to what was previously considered "more powerful" handgun ammunition. The differences are still there where performance through intermediate barriers are concerned but in the vast majority of other instances 9mm can get the same job done, just as effectively.
None of those gel shots are really that different from any one of the others.
That's the point... :cool:
THE .357 SIG IN PERSPECTIVE...Rising in popularity, this round has proven itself for more than 17 years.
Numbers from gun and ammo manufacturers indicate otherwise.
I worked for a Fed agency that issued .357 Sig Glocks. We dumped them about 4 months later and went back to .40's. Ayoob is a dumbass and always has been a self-aggrandizing , arrogent, poserish moron. Not that I don't like him or anything.
None of those gel shots are really that different from any one of the others.
Yep! And that is why a handgun is secondary weapon.
In fact, I large knife will produce similar or better terminal effects although with a shorter range.
polydeuces
11-26-11, 22:17
Massad.....
The fossil-poster boy of "say one thing when you're paid to, another when you're not"......doesn't he write a lot for those same gun-rags that have yet to produce one piece of objective editorial review material - ever...?
:eek:
(I may end up having to write an editorial retraction on that one.....:sarcastic:)
COVERBUSTER
11-26-11, 22:29
I nailed my first Wyoming coyote with a 357 Sig JHP at 10 yards, dropped like a rock , no exit. Same thing with a 10mm, DRT.
Deads dead.
Logistics is my big deal now, 9mm and 45 are my only hand gun rounds I shoot or stock up on.
I wonder if Mas thinks a 50 will tear your arm off if it passes close:lol:
Just an observation;
I have used that "shock effect" to kill small animals that were in the water.
I have done so a number of times when shooting at cotton mouths, and with a wide variety of guns including my daily carry 9mms.
Many years ago I noted that when you hit just under a large frog with a .22lr HP that you can flip them out of the water, not blow up the frog, and they were stone dead. This didn't happen when RN ammo was used.
Kind of like how folks used to "bark" squirrels in the old days.
That's all I got, carry on.
Fail-Safe,
Sounds like Ayoob has been reading Courtney.
Perhaps they could collaborate on a paper dealing with distant BPW effects in serpents...call it "Snakes in a bucket: BPW in pit vipers."
:sarcastic:
He has. You know why? Hoping to stay relevant. His team of misfits, Marshall & Sanow, have had their credibility virtually destroyed. Instead of admit he was wrong and that the Fackler/IWBA/Roberts (aka "Jello Junkies") were/are right, he's grasping at straws. Courtney is that straw.
Who is this Courtney dude?
Who is this Courtney dude?
Don't know for sure, but could it be this person (Courtney) they're referencing here?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39322
Raven Armament
11-26-11, 23:58
Dr Michael Courtney aka Pasteur on various forums.
I'd like to see a .357 sig style cartridge made out of a .500 S&W cut/necked down to a .45 projectile.
The fossil-poster boy of "say one thing when you're paid to, another when you're not"
That should be his sig line!
I'm really surprised that ANYONE listens to anything that comes out of Ayoobs mouth anymore. I'm not sure he was relevant in 1975 let alone in 2011. I honestly believe that he tries to scare citizens away from carrying a firearm with all of his drivel...
Oh, and he can't shoot for shit either.
Just to give the .357sig a fair shake.......I will say that I've found that I shoot the round much better than I do the .40S&W. It seems to have a good inherent accuracy(much like the .45acp), and the recoil impulse is sharp, but the cycle is brief and I get back on target faster. So, from that point of view I might be better served using the .357sig than the .40 on duty because after all......the ablity to shoot the pistol well is more important than the caliber.
like many others i have researched countless hours of my life away trying to find the "most effective" handgun caliber for my self. in the end i have found that it boils down to this......hand guns poke holes of slightly different sizes and with a good modern bullet designs (golddot, hst, ranger-t, ext...) they will all perform all most identically in unobstructed shots. with that said i keep my 9mm's loaded with hst 147gr +p. i like .45's too. i am interested in 357 sig and .40 too, but not because i think they will offer anything over 9mm and .45. i simply like to try new things. if there is anything im missing here please let me know.
like many others i have researched countless hours of my life away trying to find the "most effective" handgun caliber for my self. in the end i have found that it boils down to this......hand guns poke holes of slightly different sizes and with a good modern bullet designs (golddot, hst, ranger-t, ext...) they will all perform all most identically in unobstructed shots.
Same here, As much as I tried, I could never find the magic that made a projectile of .40+ a success or the projectile of .40 - a failure. It's sad to say but many who accept such simplistic claims have been wasting their time studying Bullistics.
230therapy
11-27-11, 19:21
I too like 9x19mm and 45 ACP. I like to think big, heavy and slow may have an advantage over the lighter rounds. In the end, I use handgun cartridges tuned for use against humans and it seems they all act in a similar fashion when they hit flesh.
I'll compare the 357 SIG and 357 Magnum loads with the Speer Gold Dot 125 grain JHP in Speer's #13 reloading manual.
I vaguely remember that 357 SIG could hit 1400 FPS with the maximum load. I think the key is to see what the overlap between the two calibers is.
Now...9x23mm can get you some serious velocity. 125 grain Winchester Silvertips were chronographed between 1440 to 1490 FPS!
I know of One dept that has had great luck in actual shootings of humans with there 357 sig in mp platform, they made a switch from 40sw to it and have had great success we know all know this caliber that caliber im just adding in what i know from reports they have told me and the like
Still there is no magic wand with pixie dust rounds:D
He has. You know why? Hoping to stay relevant. His team of misfits, Marshall & Sanow, have had their credibility virtually destroyed. Instead of admit he was wrong and that the Fackler/IWBA/Roberts (aka "Jello Junkies") were/are right, he's grasping at straws. Courtney is that straw.
Well, that explains it.
Can't say I am surprised at Courtney's "reemergence" in other sources either. Three, maybe four months ago, I saw his "writings" touted as an "authoritative source" of information in an article on "stopping power" (or some such nonsense) in one of the bigger gun rags I found at the grocery newsstand.
S'pose that as long as there are people who will pay for "snake oil" there'll be someone there to provide it.
M&S? :haha: Don't get me started on those hucksters. :D
If I remember correctly, some European shooters pushed for its development simply because they can not own a fire arm in chambered for a "military caliber". It's popular in IPSC events in the countries that restrict to the BS no military calibers thing.
I don't think anyone doesn't believe that the .357 Sig won't do the job(like the 9mm, .40 and .45), it's the fringe lunatics looking for "lightning bolt effect" and buying into all that crap, that irritates me.
They all offer something that may have a marginal advantage over another, but none do so without a drawback in some fashion as well.
I used to feel the .40 was a fix for something that wasn't broken. I now think it is a good bridge between the 9mm(capacity and penetration) and .45 ACP(lack of capacity, less deflection through glass than the 9mm and suffered in penetrating harder objects like car doors compared to smaller, higher velocity 9mm). With the .40 you deal with a higher cost than 9mm, damn near .45 ammo costs, and an increase in recoil.
Those are just my observations after going over tests and evaluations I have access to. I have all of the big 3 calibers in my collection, but I carry a 9mm and really have no plan to change to running a .40 for carry, unless I move from Glock 9mm to M&P .40's.
I'm really surprised that ANYONE listens to anything that comes out of Ayoobs mouth anymore. I'm not sure he was relevant in 1975 let alone in 2011. I honestly believe that he tries to scare citizens away from carrying a firearm with all of his drivel...
Oh, and he can't shoot for shit either.
He was a guest at our state LE Instructors Seminar some years ago. We had a 3-gun competition between instructors and he borrowed an AR for the rifle portion. He had an AD at the 50 yd line, and he blamed it on his unfamiliarity with that particular AR rifle.
Just about everyone jumped his shit for that line, and he was asked to leave the competition for the AD, but he became obstinate about it.
my oh my
titsonritz
11-28-11, 01:08
357 Sig: If I did not have to pay for it sure I’d roll with it, but I do so I don’t. Would it be my first choice if $$$ were not a factor? No.
Mas Aboob…don’t put much stock in mainstream rag writers.
I love reading these 357SIG threads to see the wailing and gnashing of teeth. I carry a SIG P229 in 357SIG and have owned it since '94 but I've long since given up on the idea that it's some kind of lightsaber. my affection for the cartridge is mostly sentimental now but I'm under no delusions that it is vastly superior to any other cartridge in this gun.
I will say though, that after trying to compete in IDPA with it, that I bought a .40 barrel for ease of reloading. the 40 was less troublesome to reload but the 357SIG was much more accurate with less recoil in that gun.
I still have a couple thousand .40 cases and bullets and will probably load them up and shoot them for practice when I get around to it but the .40 holds no interest for me as a carry round...
Ayoob has been pushing high velocity, light bullet pistol ammo for many years. He was particularly vehement in his preaching against 147 grain 9mm loads for cops, flogging 115 grain +P+ loads instead. Good thing most of them didn't listen to him.
30 cal slut
11-28-11, 16:25
Just to give the .357sig a fair shake.......I will say that I've found that I shoot the round much better than I do the .40S&W. It seems to have a good inherent accuracy(much like the .45acp), and the recoil impulse is sharp, but the cycle is brief and I get back on target faster. So, from that point of view I might be better served using the .357sig than the .40 on duty because after all......the ablity to shoot the pistol well is more important than the caliber.
yeah, I'll agree with that. .357 sig has "crisper" recoil than the .40 S&W.
it is a pain in the butt of a cartridge to reload, however. that keeps me away from shooting a ton of it.
yeah, I'll agree with that. .357 sig has "crisper" recoil than the .40 S&W.
it is a pain in the butt of a cartridge to reload, however. that keeps me away from shooting a ton of it.
Oh well. My agency has just informed me that they are no longer going to authorize the 9mm or stamped slide Sigs anymore. Just machined slide Sigs in .40 or .45. I guess I'll be retiring the old P228 9mm and using the .40S&W and the P229 for a number of years to come. :rolleyes:
charmcitycop
11-28-11, 17:48
.......
I've fired the .357Sig and was relatively unimpressed (same with .40S&W.) A guy at my range uses a Glock in .357Sig and it's down right annoying to stand next to him while he's shooting.
I've always subscribed to the "lighter bullets for shorter barrels" theory. For snub nose revolvers, I usually opt for a .38 Special +P, 110 grain JHP (semi-jacketed prefered.) As for semi's, the shortest barrel I have is ~4" and I carry 147s.
As for Ayoob, I only read his column in Combat Handguns (less and less these days) for the food-for-thought. Some things make sense, others, not so much. I was kinda surprised when I found out he was a part-timer from N.H. I always thought he was former NYPD or something.
:rolleyes: Eh, whatever!
DeltaSierra
11-28-11, 22:07
I was kinda surprised when I found out he was a part-timer from N.H.
He was a part-timer on a really small department that, if they are lucky, might get to write up two tickets per shift.......
:rolleyes:
Wasn't it just recently that he acknowledged that 147gr 9mm loads actually work. Ayoob is a writer plain and simple. He writes what he thinks will sell magazines, and get him paid. Many of his theories on wound ballistics have long ago been discredited. Even some of his stories of actual shooting are riddled with errors.
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