View Full Version : Lets Get "Defensive"!!
"I have over 300 rounds through my DPMS, ShrubMaster, PlumCRAZY and it works perfect!"
"I really dont see the point of spending $1,000 dollars on a rifle when its all the same thing!"
Does this look familiar?
I have been seeing this more and more lately, on top of hearing it.
What is going on with the THREAD(s) that get posted after someone has an insufficient amount of rounds that is BARELY a standard break in period, and thinking that their rifle is just as good if not BETTER than top tier mfg. company.
After this amazing "feat" that their rifle has just established, they come a runnin' to M4C to share and BOAST about how thier "X" brand is just as good as"Y", almost as if to say, "Look what I just did! You should go sell your overpriced carbine and come join me! It works just as good!"
I got into an argument just the other day about a guys PlumCrazy crap, him and his "protege" were telling me that it was just as good as Glock, they were both polymer,whats the difference?!?!
My argument lasted about 5 minutes, Idiots drag you down to thier level, then BEAT you with experience. It was a losing battle.
If you want to shoot garbage and put a WalMart RDS on it, cool.
But I dont want to hear about it... Or see the stupid thread about it having 500 rounds through it and it functions perfect.
After that, when you explain that it only takes TIME for something to happen, they DEFEND thier little hearts out and get pretty mad.
You will LOSE a friend over thier poor decision making.
It happens.
They ask, "Hey try it, just try it! Its just as good!
When you decline...thats when the "Butthurtedness" shows up.
So my question is...
WHY...WHY the need to PROVE your sub par build is
"As good as", or "Better" than top tier.
If you have a premium product, you will KNOW, and you shouldnt have to try and PROVE or defend it.
I forgot the term, but it is the individual looking for acceptance and reinforcement that their choice was a good one. When they are defending their choice with someone that knows better, or should know better, it is cognitive dissonance that their percieved view of reality is the correct one and they have a need to convince you that their sometimes poor choice was the right one so they can say up is up and their rifle is just as good. Too late to type more than that, gotta get some rest. Long day tomorrow.
I forgot the term, but it is the individual looking for acceptance and reinforcement that their choice was a good one. When they are defending their choice with someone that knows better, or should know better, it is cognitive dissonance that their percieved view of reality is the correct one and they have a need to convince you that their sometimes poor choice was the right one so they can say up is up and their rifle is just as good. Too late to type more than that, gotta get some rest. Long day tomorrow.
Nothing more need be said on the subject really.
Eurodriver
11-26-11, 07:53
Read my "My friend just bought a .338 Lapua" and "My idiot friend wants a .300 Win Mag" threads in the PRecision bolt action rifle forum.
Its not limited to ARs.
Guy with zero experience shooting anything bolt action. Couldn't even tell you what 1 MOA at 500 yards or at 1 MIL at 100 yards is.
But he's got his .338 and he's more badass than I am. :confused:
i like the guys that have never shot an AR and want to make sure they are getting the most "accurate" one
or who are buying a glock with the intention to bubba it and make it more reliable :confused:
I have a Dpms stripped lower that I built up with a DD parts kit, I'm sure it'll hold up. I would not use a dpms barrel or bcg. Most of the gun shows on tv seem to push RRA, bushmaster, dpms etc. sometimes S&W. Once in a while I see a DD ad but only once BCM. I wonder if the shooting public in general are mainly exposed to these lesser quality guns? I'm sure outside of this forum, many have never heard of BCM, DD and some others. Colt might be the one that some have heard of but I was reading a totally misinformed "what's the best AR manf." article the other day and it told the reader how colt was the worst one.
I have a Dpms stripped lower that I built up with a DD parts kit, I'm sure it'll hold up. I would not use a dpms barrel or bcg. Most of the gun shows on tv seem to push RRA, bushmaster, dpms etc. .
This is the reason I think they think RRA and DPMS is awesome top of the line, I mean, if its on TV then its GOTTA be badass.
I know a few guys that when they see my rifles, they claim "I have never heard of them", in a tone that suggests, "You should have gone with an RRA/B.M etc.
The worst part is the people I know that actually KNOW they could have picked up a Colt, try an "Prove" to me after they have 300 rounds.
Guy with zero experience shooting anything bolt action. Couldn't even tell you what 1 MOA at 500 yards or at 1 MIL at 100 yards is.
But he's got his .338 and he's more badass than I am. :confused:
I read this.
Its another thing that eerks the shit out of me, they have to own the shit they can show off...when they have no idea how to use it
Belmont31R
11-26-11, 11:36
This type of attitude is all over the place not just guns.
I used to work in a shop that did things like turbo installs, springs, exhausts, ect. Lots of ricer type cars but it was through my HS and I got double credits...
Anyways dipshits would come in with a car that they cut the factory springs because they were too cheap to buy a set of even $150 or $200 springs. Then they drive down the road and bounce all over the place. Some of them would lie and say they had real springs before but the cut ones work better, and try to get us to agree or say it was ok to do.
On the other hand we had quite a few guys who put a lot of money in their cars, did semi pro racing on the weekends, ect. We had a few cars we sponsored as well.
Theres always going to be cheap bastards out there who skimp on stuff, and then try to say its "just as good as" quality (and pricey) equipment. Theres no shortage of jack wagons out there who bubba stuff together, buy the cheapest crap they can, and ride around like they're hot shit.
Same thing with guns. For a lot of people its how something looks and not how it actually performs. As long as they had a set of aftermarket rims, fart can exhaust, and it was lower than stock they thought they were driving a race car. :rolleyes:
This type of attitude is all over the place not just guns...
Theres no shortage of jack wagons out there who bubba stuff together, buy the cheapest crap they can, and ride around like they're hot shit.
Well, that analogy makes sense because if ever pressed their 'awesome' kludges become safety liabilities more than anything else.
The difference with most cars is that there is a bit of logic to the 'it will go point A to point B' equivalence, but only because regular automobiles are driven within such a tiny amount of their mechanical performance envelope when tooling around town.
To which as a pure economist, I'd say most AR-tard owners are getting a better value out of a Hesse/Vulcan 1337 special with the entire wal-mart sourced accessory bin attached: they think it looks awesome, and it goes bang on the sporadic occasions it goes to the range most of the time.
The value of a quality rifle ONLY makes sense if you're looking at it as safety hardware, or are going to use it enough for part lifetimes to be relevant.
I'd take Boris Said in a granny-mobile and LAV with a Mosin over an idiot in an Enzo and somebody clueless behind an M82.
This type of attitude is all over the place not just guns.
Theres always going to be cheap bastards out there who skimp on stuff, and then try to say its "just as good as" quality (and pricey) equipment. Theres no shortage of jack wagons out there who bubba stuff together, buy the cheapest crap they can, and ride around like they're hot shit.
Same thing with guns. For a lot of people its how something looks and not how it actually performs. As long as they had a set of aftermarket rims, fart can exhaust, and it was lower than stock they thought they were driving a race car. :rolleyes:
Now that's funny, but truly stated. :D
Belmont31R
11-26-11, 14:48
Well, that analogy makes sense because if ever pressed their 'awesome' kludges become safety liabilities more than anything else.
The difference with most cars is that there is a bit of logic to the 'it will go point A to point B' equivalence, but only because regular automobiles are driven within such a tiny amount of their mechanical performance envelope when tooling around town.
To which as a pure economist, I'd say most AR-tard owners are getting a better value out of a Hesse/Vulcan 1337 special with the entire wal-mart sourced accessory bin attached: they think it looks awesome, and it goes bang on the sporadic occasions it goes to the range most of the time.
The value of a quality rifle ONLY makes sense if you're looking at it as safety hardware, or are going to use it enough for part lifetimes to be relevant.
I'd take Boris Said in a granny-mobile and LAV with a Mosin over an idiot in an Enzo and somebody clueless behind an M82.
Yeah but not all cars get from one point to another at the same rate of speed, with the most safety features, comfort, and reliability. ;)
"I have over 300 rounds through my DPMS, ShrubMaster, PlumCRAZY and it works perfect!"
"I really dont see the point of spending $1,000 dollars on a rifle when its all the same thing!"
Does this look familiar?
I have been seeing this more and more lately, on top of hearing it.
What is going on with the THREAD(s) that get posted after someone has an insufficient amount of rounds that is BARELY a standard break in period, and thinking that their rifle is just as good if not BETTER than top tier mfg. company.
After this amazing "feat" that their rifle has just established, they come a runnin' to M4C to share and BOAST about how thier "X" brand is just as good as"Y", almost as if to say, "Look what I just did! You should go sell your overpriced carbine and come join me! It works just as good!"
I got into an argument just the other day about a guys PlumCrazy crap, him and his "protege" were telling me that it was just as good as Glock, they were both polymer,whats the difference?!?!
My argument lasted about 5 minutes, Idiots drag you down to thier level, then BEAT you with experience. It was a losing battle.
If you want to shoot garbage and put a WalMart RDS on it, cool.
But I dont want to hear about it... Or see the stupid thread about it having 500 rounds through it and it functions perfect.
After that, when you explain that it only takes TIME for something to happen, they DEFEND thier little hearts out and get pretty mad.
You will LOSE a friend over thier poor decision making.
It happens.
They ask, "Hey try it, just try it! Its just as good!
When you decline...thats when the "Butthurtedness" shows up.
So my question is...
WHY...WHY the need to PROVE your sub par build is
"As good as", or "Better" than top tier.
If you have a premium product, you will KNOW, and you shouldnt have to try and PROVE or defend it.
I understand what you're saying and I have to say that for the most part I agree with you. But on AR's I'm not to sure. I have a colt, bushy, and am in the process of building onto a barret 6.8 upper so I think I have a pretty good range of ARs.
The USBP uses Bushmaster ARs, the mexican military and police use Bushmaster ARs.
I have a bushmaster M4orgery that I will run 150-300rds through per range trip! I have about 1500-1700rds through it and haven't had an single issue. Is it a top tier AR? Nope. does it work and do I consider it my "working AR" that I take with me to the range or on trips? Yep.
So I don't know what to tell you. I'm not trying to push my bushy onto you and I'm not trying to compare my bushy with your ultimatic AR build that was:
"Forged with the anger of the damned and cooled in Angels tears!"
I can tell you that when people come up to me with assinine claims......oh wait I've never had anyone come up to me with assinine claims because they respect my judgement and I don't tout one product over the other! What I do tell them is to get the best they can for the money they're willing to spend or can afford. Keep the maintenance up on it and practice with it.
If they ask my opinion I don't tell them something like it was written on the back of the ten commandments. I tell them studies have shown this to be the case, and then give them the numbers and let them figure it out for themselves.
You see man on their base level will strive to be the best and do the best they can. Also most people, given the proper information, and left to their own devices will make the right choices!
Belmont31R
11-26-11, 17:21
The thing about it is no one is saying a BM cannot run well just that it does not have the testing done or QC as some other brands. This makes it more likely someone will have an issue like a canted FSB which they are somewhat famous for.
The purpose of testing parts is to weed out bad ones. That doesn't mean every part is bad. Just means you're more likely to get a part that would be rejected by someone else, and that means its more likely to fail.
Im sure there are tons of people out there who shoot BM guns without issue. However you are more likely to get one with an out of spec chamber, over gassed or a canted FSB. As to the quality of their small parts I don't doubt most of the time they are ok but why take the risk? For someone looking for their first AR if they do a little research they can buy a brand that puts more care into their guns for the same amount of money or marginally more.
I could understand buying a BM back when there were very few brands to choose from. Now there are more than you can shake a stick at, and BM has been left in the dust when it comes to QC and quality as a brand. Individual guns do not make or break an entire brand who has been making AR's for decades. DPMS has been making guns for a long time, too, and Ive seen a half dozen of them fail on the range just from bi weekly to monthly shooting over a year and a half period.
At the same time, six years in the Army, shooting all Colt M16 A2's and A4's the only time there were issues was when people ran them dry or had a bad mag. A few broken stocks and handguards when people mistreated them. We never into small parts breakage, out of spec chambers, canted FSB's, and all the other issues that tend to crop up in other brands. Our A4's were all taken new out of the box about a year before I got there.
WHY...WHY the need to PROVE your sub par build is
"As good as", or "Better" than top tier.
For many people, a firearms purchase is an emotional purchase. Add to it that many people invest their identity in their firearm choice. It becomes a badge of how cool / smart they are. When you reject their choice, they perceive it as a slam on them. That creates the need to step up and justify their choice and by extension themselves.
Go to a gun show if you want to see individuals have positive glee over buying something they don't really know much about. To the uninitiated, an AK is an AK and an AR is an AR. They have no understanding about what separates one manufacturer's product from another. They go by look and feel since they lack knowledge. It's unrealistic to expect them to accept the bad news that they wasted money on an inferior product with stoic calm.
For many people, a firearms purchase is an emotional purchase. Add to it that many people invest their identity in their firearm choice. It becomes a badge of how cool / smart they are. When you reject their choice, they perceive it as a slam on them. That creates the need to step up and justify their choice and by extension themselves.
.
I can understand that.
Im talking about the people who know better specifically.
Refuse to take advice.
Then out of spite, try and prove to people that it is good without anything over a couple hundred rounds.
Like I said...its not even a round count BARELY high enough to be a break in period let alone a count high enough to deem the rifle worthy of home defense or a SHTF scenario.
Lets not even mention running it in a class to find out if it can handle ANY kind of abuse.
SeriousStudent
11-26-11, 19:45
I think you are likely safer being critical of someone's spouse, than their choice of firearms.
Which is often a sad commentary on all their decisions, when you think about it.
Quiet-Matt
11-26-11, 20:17
Gun rags... thats where most folks knowledge base originates. I hear it all the time from family, friends and co-workers. All they know is what they saw in a magazine, or on the shelf at Academy. Folks around here are fans of Stag and DPMS for some reason.
On Thanksgiving my wifes Uncle was by my car and spotted my SBR in the back. He, being a "gun guy" wanted to take a look at it. The gun is conprised of parts from DD, BCM, LMT, Centurion and Aimpoint. It is however built on a RRA registered lower that I've had for years. So, of course, the first thing he did was roll it over to see who made it. "Rock River Arms huh? They make good stuff". I just bit my lip and watched him struggle to try and fully extend the stock to the fully extended default Bubba setting. I didn't bother to tell him that I'd made a stop for my desired LOP.:D
I didn't bother to tell him that I'd made a stop for my desired LOP.:D
Why is this the "Coolest" and FIRST thing that people do when handling your rifle? :lol:
With the exception of two people I know...this is the First thing they do, its usually accompanied by an elbow shoulder to neck high
I just brought a friend who has this type of mentality to a VSM class a few weeks ago. His super carry, awesome night sighted Duracoated pistol went tits up on the first live fire exercise. Not only did he look like "that guy", he had quite a learning experience. What he paid for the duracoat, he could have had a better gun.
I am taking him to a carbine class next!....:lol:
The thing about it is no one is saying a BM cannot run well just that it does not have the testing done or QC as some other brands. This makes it more likely someone will have an issue like a canted FSB which they are somewhat famous for.
The purpose of testing parts is to weed out bad ones. That doesn't mean every part is bad. Just means you're more likely to get a part that would be rejected by someone else, and that means its more likely to fail.
Im sure there are tons of people out there who shoot BM guns without issue. However you are more likely to get one with an out of spec chamber, over gassed or a canted FSB. As to the quality of their small parts I don't doubt most of the time they are ok but why take the risk? For someone looking for their first AR if they do a little research they can buy a brand that puts more care into their guns for the same amount of money or marginally more.
I could understand buying a BM back when there were very few brands to choose from. Now there are more than you can shake a stick at, and BM has been left in the dust when it comes to QC and quality as a brand. Individual guns do not make or break an entire brand who has been making AR's for decades. DPMS has been making guns for a long time, too, and Ive seen a half dozen of them fail on the range just from bi weekly to monthly shooting over a year and a half period.
At the same time, six years in the Army, shooting all Colt M16 A2's and A4's the only time there were issues was when people ran them dry or had a bad mag. A few broken stocks and handguards when people mistreated them. We never into small parts breakage, out of spec chambers, canted FSB's, and all the other issues that tend to crop up in other brands. Our A4's were all taken new out of the box about a year before I got there.
I think a lot of the reason bushmaster catches hell is that they're not really cheaper than something like colt or BCM.
A lot of guys here are looking somewhat favorably at palmetto state armory stuff. Wouldn't expect it from this site, but i think the reason is that it's substantially cheaper than the top tier stuff. Enough so that if you have to do a little tweaking it's acceptable.
I can remember warning people about this very thing years ago.
Everyone wanted black rifles to become mainstream. This way almost everyone would have one, become pro black rifle, vote accordingly and make black rifles a significant part of the firearms market.
Well here we are and a LOT of that has happened.
But what nobody counts on is that new popular majority will have a significant bubba/retard contingent and the market will adjust to cater to them accordingly.
And here we are, a victim of our own success.
As noted by Belmont31R it happens with anything. I can remember when the martial arts became wildly popular following Bruce Lees death and more notably with children after the release of The Karate Kid a decade later. Before that a black belt used to mean something, adults would relentlessly train for 5-8 years to attain such a rank. Now it's hard to find a 12 year old kid who doesn't have one. Once it became very popular, there was money to be made and idiots to be catered to.
Personally I'd rather go back to the days when most people thought Kung Fu was something to be ordered at a Chinese restaurant and AR-15s were the Air Forces new jet fighter. Sadly I don't think you can put the shit back in the horse so here we are.
I think a lot of the reason bushmaster catches hell is that they're not really cheaper than something like colt or BCM.
A lot of guys here are looking somewhat favorably at palmetto state armory stuff. Wouldn't expect it from this site, but i think the reason is that it's substantially cheaper than the top tier stuff. Enough so that if you have to do a little tweaking it's acceptable.
I think another problem is many here don't recognize the distinction of recreational guns. The OP of course is addressing the issue of people with recreational guns thinking they have actual business guns and not understanding the difference.
But that can work both ways. There are times when it really won't matter if your rifle is parkerized under the FSB or not. And many rifles can be made "adequately reliable" with a few tweaks like staking carrier keys and such. I own Bushmasters and Armalite rifles, and they are fine for most uses, but I fully understand the difference between those rifles and Colts, Daniel Defense, Noveske, etc.
I can remember warning people about this very thing years ago.
Everyone wanted black rifles to become mainstream. This way almost everyone would have one, become pro black rifle, vote accordingly and make black rifles a significant part of the firearms market.
(snip, stuff omitted)
Personally I'd rather go back to the days when most people thought Kung Fu was something to be ordered at a Chinese restaurant and AR-15s were the Air Forces new jet fighter. Sadly I don't think you can put the shit back in the horse so here we are.
I can't say I agree, and only because the more mainstream AR-15s are the more supporters they have and that harder it is to legislate against them further.
I'd rather more gunowners own some type of AR or AK as opposed to not owning and not caring about being able to own them. Purely selfish motives on my part.
Perhaps we can start a shadow site titled m4carbine.NOT dedicated to convincing people to buy whatever cheap AR possible just to increase the number of AR owners (just kidding).
[QUOTE=SteyrAUG;1152866]I think another problem is many here don't recognize the distinction of recreational guns. The OP of course is addressing the issue of people with recreational guns thinking they have actual business guns and not understanding the difference.
QUOTE]
Thats exactly what Im talking about.
I too owned a Sbrub at one time.
I thought it was tits. I took reall good care of it and was scared to drop it or scratch it.
That passed pretty quick as I learned that it wasnt (all) plastic and it could take some abuse.
It shot good. It was accurate as hell. I had the HBAR in 20" with A2.
But it doesnt run anything like my M4 or Shorty.
I upgraded over a period of about a year until only the lower was the only thing I used.
THEN....
I found M4C. I noticed a bunch of shit that people were saying was true, being an owner of one and all.
But not ONCE did I get butthurt about my purchase, not once did I start a thread trying to prove that it was just as good.
I also didnt run that rifle as hard as the two I own now either.
I'd rather more gunowners own some type of AR or AK as opposed to not owning and not caring about being able to own them. Purely selfish motives on my part.
Perhaps we can start a shadow site titled m4carbine.NOT dedicated to convincing people to buy whatever cheap AR possible just to increase the number of AR owners (just kidding).
I just wish that MFG. companies would stand up to thier product and not half ass. NOT putting out GARBAGE would be a start.
I think that would fix alot of it.
That or make SPECIFIC commercial ARs and name them The "Plinker".
There would be a picture of a kid with his dad on the box while they're shooting, lookin all happy an shit.
Maybe The "Weekend warrior.
lol
That or make SPECIFIC commercial ARs and name them The "Plinker".
That's stupid - the next brand over is going to just start calling theirs the 'Elite Tactical Sniper' or something comparably erroneous - no net gain.
While I agree that selling them as 'Match' might be a step in the right direction, I don't think there are many people left who:
1)Shoot more than 2000 rounds a year
and
2)Are unaware of what they actually need for a reliable rifle.
A lot of this is just the confluence of internet punditry, and the simple fact that most ARs sold are safe queens.
Odd source, but this is amazingly succinct.
http://xkcd.com/937/
Thats exactly what Im talking about.
I too owned a Sbrub at one time.
I thought it was tits. I took reall good care of it and was scared to drop it or scratch it.
That passed pretty quick as I learned that it wasnt (all) plastic and it could take some abuse.
It shot good. It was accurate as hell. I had the HBAR in 20" with A2.
But it doesnt run anything like my M4 or Shorty.
I upgraded over a period of about a year until only the lower was the only thing I used.
THEN....
I found M4C. I noticed a bunch of shit that people were saying was true, being an owner of one and all.
But not ONCE did I get butthurt about my purchase, not once did I start a thread trying to prove that it was just as good.
I also didnt run that rifle as hard as the two I own now either.
Let me offer you the solace that YOU know the difference and it really doesn't matter if anyone else does or not. In fact, you have a significant advantage over all those other people.
This goes back to the martial arts parallel again. Many of the guys I have trained over the last few decades sometimes lament the sad state of affairs of contemporary martial arts and they worry about "guys who know" being largely displaced by "guys who think they know."
The reality is it doesn't matter. Either you know or you do not, and if you do you are damn fortunate and nothing else matters. In fact the other guys have done you a favor, they have driven real martial arts back underground where it belongs. It is now the province of a select few who are willing to invest in the training. What was once accomplished by clandestine instruction, oaths of secrecy and jealously guarding the secret techniques of your given method is now taken care of by the popularity of the absurd.
So quite honestly, let the tards think they have $600 killing machines with $50 RDS that let them shoot the wings off a gnat at 1000 yards. Tell them that YES, the SKS IS IN FACT the greatest SHTF rifle out there and the only thing that is better is an SKS with a folding stock and Leapers sniper scope. Make sure and let them know Wolf is every bit as good as Lake City and that you only pay for the name. Way I got it figured is more Colts for us.
Anyone who seriously needs to know is going to be told by those they are reporting to. Anyone who deserves to know will take the time to listen to you when you tell them. As for everyone else...Olympic has great prices.
Thats usually what I do.
They have their minds made up pretty much from the begining.
I dont usually argue, if they dont want good advice, they can have a good RRA instead.
Im sure shit like that while plugging away at dirt clods will do them just fine
I can't say I agree, and only because the more mainstream AR-15s are the more supporters they have and that harder it is to legislate against them further.
I'd rather more gunowners own some type of AR or AK as opposed to not owning and not caring about being able to own them. Purely selfish motives on my part.
Perhaps we can start a shadow site titled m4carbine.NOT dedicated to convincing people to buy whatever cheap AR possible just to increase the number of AR owners (just kidding).
I'm pretty much in agreement, but I prefer the old environment. Guess that is a better way to say it.
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