View Full Version : What would one look for if they decided to buy an AK?
What would one look for if they decided to buy an AK? Is there a preferred manufacture / type?
Is one style more accurate or durable than another?
Do not take anything for granted. I am completely new to AKs.
Thanks, JC
Well, let's start with basics.
There are three types of AK receivers, ones made from forged and milled steel, ones that are made from sheet metal stampings, and ones that are made with heavier gauge reinforced stampings.
You'll hear terms like milled, stamped, and RPK type receivers, which correspond to the three types.
Milled receivers are correctly AK-47's, stamped receivers would be an AKM or AK-74. Reinforced stamped receivers would be known as RPK or Yugoslavian type.
All three work fine, but it's much more important with a stamped receiver that it's done "right".
Stamped receivers are much, much less expensive to manufacture. Milled receivers just scream quality and they tend to provide a more stable platform and are generally more accurate. The reinforced stamped receivers are thicker than a standard stamped receiver, and they use oversized reinforced trunnions that hold the barrel into the receiver. These are also called RPK receivers since they were developed for use with the Soviet squad auto, called the RPK.
Stamped receivers are the most versatile when it comes to playing around with different stocks. Milled receivers are a little more restricted when it comes to that.
Milled receivers can be identified by two milled out sections on either side of the receiver right above the mag well. These are just lightening cuts for the receiver, although they may help in making the receiver stiffer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/sam501.jpg
Stamped receivers, with two exceptions, should have two dimples, again, one on either side of the receiver above the mag well. They serve as magazine guides when reloading the weapon. The two exceptions are the Century Arms imported Romanian WASR-10 series, and the Russian SAIGA, although current SAIGA's might be coming in with the dimples. Stamped receivers can also be identified by the rivets that hold the front trunnion into the receiver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/pmkms02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%20Day%209-13-05/Half%20Sized%20Range%20Day/RangePics9-13-05002.jpg
RPK receivers are what the Yugoslavians use. They are 1.5mm thick stampings rather than the traditional 1mm, and the piece that holds the barrel to the receiver, the front trunnion, is oversized and reinforced, so they are very durable, stable receivers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MitchellAK-472.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MVC-028S.jpg
There are three main cailibers available in AK's.....
The original caliber is the 7.62x39mm, roughly equivalent to a .30-30 WCF in power. This is a "pure" assault rifle round, with a tapered case designed to make it easy to get into and out of a chamber quickly and easily. It is also the least accurate of the cartridges available for an AK, but it's by far the most prevalent cailber.
The 5.45x39mm was introduced in 1974 with the AK-74, it was the Soviet's attempt at the lightweight rifle/caliber concept. They saw the M16 being used in Vietnam and they wanted a round that was similar. The 5.45mm has less recoil and greater accuracy than the 7.62x39mm round, and is a lot of fun to shoot. The rounds also weigh less.
AK's can now also be had in 5.56x45mm. You know all about that round, but what's important to remember with AK's in this caliber is there were never any attempts to standardize parts or magazines among AK producing countries....they were always export rifles and the Warsaw Pact fell before they were widely available. If you get a rifle in this caliber, stock up on magazines and parts specific to the rifle you have. You can find Bulgarian, Chinese and Romanian stamped 5.56mm AK's, and milled receiver Bulgarian AK's, which are being issued in Columbia and are replacing other AK's in Bulgarian service now that Bulgaria is a junior member of NATO.
You'll also hear about pre-ban, post-ban, and no-ban rifles. For AK's, the first ban was in 1989, when Bush Sr. banned import of foreign made rifles by executive order. Prior to that, the Chinese, Egyptians, Hungarians and Yugoslavians imported AK's. The Israelis and Finns imported high end rifles based on the AK action, Galils and Valmets respectively.
There were rifles imported after 1989 that had thumbhole stocks, no muzzle brakes, no bayonet lugs, etc. These were the beginning of the post ban rifles. Then in 1994, the Crime Bill came.
Post ban imports came from Romania, Bulgaria, Eqypt, China, Hungary, and Russia. These would then have to be "unbanned" to have all the evil features that most of us want.
The end of the Crime Bill allowed domestic manufacture of rifles with evil features. You'll hear terms like "parts count". Parts count refers to the # of US parts in a foreign made rifle that allow it to then have evil features. If you have 10 or fewer foreign parts in the rifle, and ATF has a specific list of what you can replace, you can have a rifle with a bayonet lug, folding stock, threaded muzzle, etc.
Without a doubt, Arsenal Inc. makes the best AK out there, hands down. I've been shooting, buying, selling and collecting AK's for almost 20 years, and these guys build an AK better than anyone. They set up operations in the US, and as subsidiaries of Arsenal Bulgaria, they sent technicians and gunsmiths over from Bulgaria and Russia to build AK's here on modern CNC machinery with the original blue prints.
As to what to buy......think about how much you want to spend.
Pre-1989 imported rifles will still bring a premium. They don't have to worry about "parts counts" and they are the least molested, so collectors will pay top dollar for them.
Otherwise.....
Top of the line milled receiver AK's can go up to and over $1200.00. Some can be had for under $800.00. Again, another plug for Arsenal Inc. There are also Chinese milled receiver rifles out there, the pre-89 Polytech Legends, and there are post ban MAK-91's that are milled. There are also two types of Bulgarian post bans that were imported before Arsenal Inc. was set up, the SA-93 and the SLR-95. They can be had for around $500 or less and can be unbanned into some really nice rifles. The Bulgarian rifles use cold hammer forged barrels, extremely high quality.
Stamped receiver rifles are much more varied. Imported stamped receivers are typically the most desired. They aren't reverse engineered. Geometry and proper heat treatment of a stamped receiver are very important. It may sound like a simple thing to make a stamped receiver, but there really aren't any US receivers that are truely "in spec"....think about all the ruckus that the term "mil-spec" brings up when discussing AR's. Foreign stamped receivers are "mil-spec".
There are some well done domestic stamped receivers.....the ones offered my DCI/NODAK are the best, with Amory USA being very good as well.
Try to avoid Hesse, Vulcan, or early Ewbanks receivers. ITM/Ohio Ordnance have been around for a while, but they would be way, way, way down on my list of domestic receivers that are still acceptable.
A quality stamped receiver rifle can be had for $700.00 or less. The better rifles are actually "kit" rifles that were built from surplus rifles cut up as parts kits and then reassembled as complete rifles on new semi auto receivers with the proper # of US parts.
You'll want to know who built these up. Atlantic Arms offers some rifles built by Vector and Red Jacket that have a good track record. Armory USA/Arsenal USA have built many great rifles, although they went through a rough spot a while back. Current SA-85B's should be decent rifles.
Again, avoid Hesse/Vulcan, and some Ohio Rapidfire builds are worse than others.
Century imported a lot of rifles from Egypt and Romania, and they are now offering Yugoslavian kit rifles built on the excellent DCI receivers.
Century is VERY much hit and miss. You'll really want to inspect the rifle before buying, looking for canted front sights, bad triggers, and just overall quality.
Bear in mind that Century tries to sell a lot of rifles for a decent price, while they bring arms to the masses, sometimes quality suffers.
The WASR-10 is the cheapest, most prevalent AK out there right now. They are imported with a receiver that can't take military magazines, but Century then opens the magazine well to accept military mags. Some are quitre serviceable and represent a good value, but many have cosmetic issues and sights that aren't alligned properly.
AK's have a bad reputation, mostly unearned, for poor accuracy. They will never be bench rest rifles, but in terms of practical accuracy, they'll hang right in there with an AR with iron sights. I'm talking about unsupported real life shooting.
What's hurt the reputation in terms of accuracy for the AK is that people tend to buy the cheapest AK they can get and stuff the cheapest ammo they can find into it, and then want to compare it to their favorite AR.
I've beat guys in practical rifle competition using my iron sighted AK against their optically sighted AR.....
I know that this is a lot of information, and I've skimmed over a lot of issues.
Ask away on specific stuff.....there's a lot of knowledge on the board here, and you might also want to check out www.akforum.net, lots of very knowledgeable AK guys there.
I'm sure I've missed alot of stuff so chime in with any info!
Wow, thanks for the very informative post. This info is worthy of its own thread, tacked for generations of newbies to come.
It looks like a Milled Arsenal Inc. AK74 is really the best option out there so far.
I wonder what took them so long to try out the Bakelite pistol grips?
So, do you have an equally impressive insight on the various AK muzzle brakes?
What decides wood or plastic (?) for the stock / handguard? Personal preference / country of origin / model / a combination of them all?
Thanks again for the detailed information!
No problem...I enjoy bringing people over to the Dark Side......:D
The Arsenal AK-74's are going to be stamped receivers.
An AK-74 is chambered in 5.45x39mm.
If you want a factory milled rifle, then you're looking at 7.62x39mm or 5.56x45mm.
Handguards and pistol grips will generally interchange, sometimes some fitting is necessary, between milled and stamped rifles.
That means you can have synthetic or wood, or a mixture of both.
When it comes to stock sets....or "furniture", it is entirely dependent on country of origin and time of issue. Wood, laminated wood, bakelite, polyamide, and polymer have all been used. All current issue new generation Kalashnikov's are being equiped with synthetic stocks.
Milled and stamped receivers use a different buttstock though.
There are generally two thread pitches for the muzzle. The traditional is a 14/1mm left hand thread, where the barrel itself is threaded. The AK-74 uses a front sight assembly that slips over the barrel itself and is threaded. Russian, Bulgarian and East German AK-74's use a 24mm right hand thread. Romanians, just to be different, use a 22mm AK-74 brake.
The rifle at the bottom of the pic is the traditional 14/1mm left hand thread. The rifle at the top has the 24mm right hand thread but has a Bulgarian flash suppressor.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Half%20sized%20Tammy%20and%20Arsenal/Circle10010.jpg
There are both flash suppressors and muzzle brakes, as well as just plain thread protectors available for the muzzles of AK's, it just depends on what you have.
Flash suppressor on a 5.56mm Arsenal In. SA-M5 that uses 14/1mm LH threads:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/sam503.jpg
Arsenal Inc. SLR-105A1 (AK-74) with it's muzzle brake:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/ArsenalSLR-105APlum.jpg
Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Classic (AK-47) with a thread protector:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Arsenal%20Classic/RangeDay08-07-05001.jpg
Egyptian Maadi with the correct AKM slant brake....the idea was to have the gas escape up and to the right to counteract the pull of the rifle up and to the left under full auto fire.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Egyptian%20Maadi/EgyptianARMMaadi.jpg
Bulldog1967
08-19-06, 19:52
It looks like a Milled Arsenal Inc. AK74 is really the best option out there so far.
You learn fast young padawan! :D
Master Templar trains another one in the ways of Arsenal Inc :D
Wow, this is one hell of a thread for all of us who are new to the AK world.
I have a SA-M5S with the attendant pinned muzzle brake. What do I need to do do de-ban it? I'd like an AK74 style muzzle brake on there but don't want to ruin the barrel. It also has a windage adjustable rear sight that I don't care for since it sticks out to far. I may replace that with a peep rear blade.
There are threads under the brake, you can take the shark gill brake off by carefully cutting it off (dremmel). Be very careful doing this, you'll also void your warranty.
You might want to have a smith do that. You'll have to also replace the front sight block.
Chris Butler at AKUSA down in Florida has done a number of these conversions.
He's not cheap, but he's a tier one smith, and does top notch work.
K-Var sells the RPK windage adjustable sight that will fit right on your M5.
Take a look here.......
http://k-varcorp.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3482
http://k-varcorp.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3411
http://k-varcorp.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=3360
http://www.ak-103.com/
QuietShootr
10-29-06, 17:55
I think I want an AK, and that milled Arsenal looks like what I want. Who has these, and how much are they? Are they chrome-lined?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Arsenal%20Classic/RangeDay08-07-05001.jpg
Generic, all AK's, with the exception of the Yugoslavian and the Century Arms Yugo clones, have chrome lined barrels.
That rifle is an Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Classic. They were limited edtion rifle, built as clones of the Type 3 AK-47, which entered service around 1953.
These are going to run in the $1000.00 range, plus or minus maybe $100.00.
The alternative is the Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Carbine, which is basically the same rifle that the US bought for the Iraqi National Guard. It differs from the Classic in that it has the lighter barrel of the AKM and a 90* gas block of the AK-74. It's an updated AK that uses a milled receiver. You should be able to find them for a little under $800.00.
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7carbinenb.htm
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7classic.htm
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Bulgarian%20AKs/INGwithBulgarianAK.jpg
Generic, all AK's, with the exception of the Yugoslavian and the Century Arms Yugo clones, have chrome lined barrels.
That rifle is an Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Classic. They were limited edtion rifle, built as clones of the Type 3 AK-47, which entered service around 1953.
These are going to run in the $1000.00 range, plus or minus maybe $100.00.
The alternative is the Arsenal Inc. SA-M7 Carbine, which is basically the same rifle that the US bought for the Iraqi National Guard. It differs from the Classic in that it has the lighter barrel of the AKM and a 90* gas block of the AK-74. It's an updated AK that uses a milled receiver. You should be able to find them for a little under $800.00.
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7carbinenb.htm
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7classic.htm
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Bulgarian%20AKs/INGwithBulgarianAK.jpg
We bought AK's for the ING? With all of the 1000's adn 1000's of AK's (regardless of the make and pedigree, an AK is an AK after all, and most of the time the ING turn and drop the AK while running.) we seized from Iraq in the last 4 years and buy them AK's. Is our government stupid? Oops, sorry I asked.
Business_Casual
12-31-06, 17:50
"(regardless of the make and pedigree, an AK is an AK after all"
Don't confuse inexpensive and rugged with poorly made. You can find any number of problems reported with AKs that are made in that region with zero quality control.
M_P
blackheart1137
01-19-07, 07:45
Three places come to mind for quality AKs built in the US. Marc Krebs, K-Var, and Blackheart manufacturing. All start with quality components and then build to the buyers specs. some take longer than others but you should not be an a mad dash for an AK.
C'yotecaller
04-06-07, 01:30
Whats the word on the Century Yugo M70's with underfolder stock. They seem really popular, but hows the quaility?
Whats the word on the Century Yugo M70's with underfolder stock. They seem really popular, but hows the quaility?
For the most part, they've got a decent rep. Definitely check the mag fit, as some are reported to have a loose mag well, and check to make sure the sights aren't canted.
The Green Mt. barrels that are being used in them are decent barrels, remember though that they aren't chrome lined.
I remember the 1989 chinese flood of cheap AK's that came into the country. I saw them for $100.00 each in the box off the UPS truck. Gosh what a beautiful thing.
They were hard to take apart (lots of pipe wrenching and pliers to move the levers) and the finish was rough yet they worked. What ever became of them? I am sure this is why the first executive ban went into effect. The 'powers' got scared that everyone would be able to afford a chinese AK.
How do the SA-85 Hungarian sporter rifles compare to the US manufacturers? They were really slick and beautiful phosphate finish and birch thumb stock. I read they are different in the receiver and will not accept some other AK parts?
The Yugoslavian receivers are all 1.5mm? That makes them non compatible with anyother regular 1mm stamped receiver parts?
PLease show the dark one with your light oh master.
I have to admit, finding this excellent thread has me thinking seriously about buying an AK to go with my new AR.
A couple of questions come to mind:
1) Who carries/distributes Arsenal AK's? The only ones I see listed on the Atlantic Firearms website are the SAM7 - which are sold out anyway. Does anyone else carry them? The Arsenal website seems to list everything as "Coming Soon" and "Limited Production".
2) In general, is the 1.6mm stamped receiver preferred over the 1.0mm? I know it's stiffer -- but I also know stiffer isn't always better. Sometimes the "flex" can be part of the reliability. I guess my question is: Is it worth the extra $50-$60 to get the thicker receiver? (And just from a technical standpoint, does the 1.6mm receiver actually qualify as an RPK receiver...or is that limited to the 1.5mm thickness? Just curious.)
3) I'm already seeing the wide range of prices (and quality) associated with the various models. Everything from <$300 for a Century WASR to >$1200 for an Arsenal milled AK. Yikes! I'm leaning toward something in the $500-$600 range. I've been researching both Vector Arms and Lancaster Arms - any strong opinions, one way or the other, on either of them in terms of quality?
Thanks for the great info!
Jim
Navyguy, Doug Stockman is a good dealer who's in your AO, www.ssgknives.com
He'll get in the Arsenal SLR-106FR's and also carries the Vector line of rifles.
Vectors are good to go and have a good rep for reliablity, good clean builds, and customer service. They also have some milled receiver rifles for about $800 or so.
The 1mm thick receiver is standard for every European AKM or AK-74 except the Yugoslavian rifles, which use the 1.6mm (or 1.5mm) RPK receiver. The Amory USA (Global Trades) 1.6mm receivers aren't "authentic", but I haven't heard any serious issues about them either. The Armory USA 1mm standard receiver is a decent one.
In the $500-$600 range I'd definitely look very hard at the Vectors. They have a 5 year warranty and like I said, good clean builds. If you join AKForums and order from Atlantic, tell him that you're a member there and they'll give you a discount.
Hope that helps. :cool:
For me, a new, unissued, Russian Izmesh AKM kit built with a AK74 side folder like the Uzbek guys are seen with a lot. That would be my final AK purchase possibly, it would be everything I want in a AK. I would settle for a Arsenal bulgarian built the same way if they had the time to put such a rifle on the market.
I just got a Century Yugo underfolder. It is a really clean build and I can't wait to try it out. Do the Yugo parts kits have chrome-lined barrels?
I also have a Hungarian SA-85. Who has the parts that will fit to make it into a no-ban rifle? Since I do not have the time nor the tools, who could do the job?
Thanks, Andy
I just got a Century Yugo underfolder. It is a really clean build and I can't wait to try it out. Do the Yugo parts kits have chrome-lined barrels?
Negative. Yugos are not chrome lined.
Sky, as Bcm stated, original Yugoslavian rifles and the Century built clones do not have chrome lined barrels, not a serious issue unless you shoot corrosive ammo out of it.
Do you have one of the thumbhole stocked post ban SA-85 imported by KBI?
Some of those have a "short" gas system, if you could start another thread and post pics, we can help you out.
If it still has the thumbhole stock, you can get wood or synthetic military grade stocks to replace it with.
Sky, as Bcm stated, original Yugoslavian rifles and the Century built clones do not have chrome lined barrels, not a serious issue unless you shoot corrosive ammo out of it.
Do you have one of the thumbhole stocked post ban SA-85 imported by KBI?
Some of those have a "short" gas system, if you could start another thread and post pics, we can help you out.
If it still has the thumbhole stock, you can get wood or synthetic military grade stocks to replace it with.
Yes it has the thumbhole. And I am trying to figure out the left hand fold options to make it beautiful
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16737&cat=329&page=2
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=329&page=2
What is with this 'short gas system'? It it a Krinkov something or another?
How is it identified?
Canonshooter
09-24-07, 07:08
Three places come to mind for quality AKs built in the US. Marc Krebs, K-Var, and Blackheart manufacturing. All start with quality components and then build to the buyers specs. some take longer than others but you should not be an a mad dash for an AK.
Agreed! I have a Kreb's rifle - built on the Russian Izhmash reciever - and it's a beauty in every way. It also comes with the side rail for mounting optics - an Aimpoint CompC3 in a modified Russian BP-02 mount shown below. Fit, finish and function are flawless - I would stake my life on this rifle without hesitation!
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ak103k-3.jpg
Just like with ARs, plan to spend more $$ if you want to go with top-shelf. And just like ARs, there is a big difference if you do so!
PS - Templar, thanks for all of the info!
I left the k-var url:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=329&page=2
for viewing and I even sent the web site a request for an answer for the left side folding stock, that just so happens to be on sale right now.
I am on K-var list for contact of sale items.
I asked for a trunion to install the folding stock onto the SA-85 and had no response as this leaves me to expect that i am not celebrity enough to warrant a response.
so, where does a guy go to get some left hand stocks like the above K-var installed?
The parts are like a crap shoot. I still have a large box of wood stocks made for very small people with short arms and are useless to a north american.
Really frustrating. Got strong suggestions?:confused:
I guess an easy answer may be full of more research and calling.
I left the k-var url:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=329&page=2
for viewing and I even sent the web site a request for an answer for the left side folding stock, that just so happens to be on sale right now.
I am on K-var list for contact of sale items.
I asked for a trunion to install the folding stock onto the SA-85 and had no response as this leaves me to expect that i am not celebrity enough to warrant a response.
so, where does a guy go to get some left hand stocks like the above K-var installed?
The parts are like a crap shoot. I still have a large box of wood stocks made for very small people with short arms and are useless to a north american.
Really frustrating. Got strong suggestions?:confused:
I guess an easy answer may be full of more research and calling.
You're going to have to send it off to someone specializing in AKs. They must remove the rear trunnion and make a couple cuts to get the latching mechanism and special trunnion in there. I believe they also must remove the front trunnion and put the hook that holds the stock in the folded position. There is a lot of work to add this folder and typically costs a great deal to get it done... It might almost be cheaper to get a cheap Romanian kit, pre-cut NoDak receiver and have someone build it...
Spooky
In the $500-$600 range would something like this be worthwhile?
Vector Arms AK47 Polymer Fixed Stock US $ 529.95
http://www.ssgtactical.com/vectorblackak.jpg
How would the length of pull on something like this compare to the LOP on an M4 with the stock at the first notch out?
Would there be a better option in this price range for a stamped, 7.62x39 AK? Any compatibility issues to worry about with this model vs. others in terms of changing out sights, stocks, optics, etc?
ET:
Or, would the Arsenal SLR 108 (http://arsenalinc.com/slr108.htm) be worth waiting/splurging for? Would the barrel be threaded under that slant break?
http://arsenalinc.com/slr108/slr108550x350.jpg
Jay Cunningham
10-06-07, 15:46
You are GTG with the Vector. The SLR-108 won't be happening any time soon.
Canonshooter
10-06-07, 15:58
How would the length of pull on something like this compare to the LOP on an M4 with the stock at the first notch out?
Longer. LOP on the Vector is 12-3/4 inches - even longer with "NATO length" stock on the 108.
Longer. LOP on the Vector is 12-3/4 inches - even longer with "NATO length" stock on the 108.
Thanks.
I thought this (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Magpul_CTR_stock_combo_for_AK_Type_Rifles.html) was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/mpctrcomboak.jpg
Canonshooter
10-06-07, 16:35
I thought this (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Magpul_CTR_stock_combo_for_AK_Type_Rifles.html) was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/mpctrcomboak.jpg
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.
Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...
I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.
aloharover
11-02-07, 19:50
For what its worth there is an all metal rear trunnion and "pig snout" for the AK that let you then use a stock AR receiver extension. So if its what you want you can put any AR stock onto an AK.
The milled version adds about 1.5" to the LOP, the stamped is ~.5"
I deal in Century, Vector, and Arsenal if you need any thing.
Pete
LOP on an AKM stock is about the same as a M16A1 stock. It's fairly short.
The Vector uses the shorter Warsaw Pact length stock of the AKM, not the K-Var extra long "NATO" length stocks.
You should be gtg.
Heavy Metal
11-03-07, 22:36
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.
Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...
I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.
Vltor makes a mil compatible AK reciever extension that has a metal on metal fit.
I too have reservations about the plastic attachment "tube." An alternative would be a custom wood stock for Ironwood - I'm investgating that myself.
Edit - I wish the stock on my AK was about an 1-1/2 inches shorter. The other issue with the AK stock is the way the butt plate curved for traditonal "shoulder mounting." This curve becomes somewhat painful when firing from a squared stance with the butt placed higher and more center mass. I'm not a big guy - only 5'8" - and the Sully stock on my AR works far better (and far less painful) in that way. Lighter recoil helps too, of course...
I think the only solution is a custom wood stock, something shorter and perhaps with a higher comb to accommodate optics.
All of my Iraqis use the m4 style stock with plastic tube. Only one has broken, and it was carried by an expat who was doing something stupid with it at the time. That said, if we had the choice I'd get them the version with the metal stock adaptor just to be safe.
IrishDevil
11-04-07, 18:32
The Vltor extension is great, I have 2 Krebs rifles with them. Very robust and gives me the same cheek weld as my AR's.
Thanks.
I thought this (http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Magpul_CTR_stock_combo_for_AK_Type_Rifles.html) was rather interesting toward that end. Although I wish the extension tube was metal and not plastic.
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/mpctrcomboak.jpg
Go Vltor for an AK/CAR stock. Its rock solid.
Well, let's start with basics.
There are three types of AK receivers, ones made from forged and milled steel, ones that are made from sheet metal stampings, and ones that are made with heavier gauge reinforced stampings.
You'll hear terms like milled, stamped, and RPK type receivers, which correspond to the three types.
Milled receivers are correctly AK-47's, stamped receivers would be an AKM or AK-74. Reinforced stamped receivers would be known as RPK or Yugoslavian type.
All three work fine, but it's much more important with a stamped receiver that it's done "right".
Stamped receivers are much, much less expensive to manufacture. Milled receivers just scream quality and they tend to provide a more stable platform and are generally more accurate. The reinforced stamped receivers are thicker than a standard stamped receiver, and they use oversized reinforced trunnions that hold the barrel into the receiver. These are also called RPK receivers since they were developed for use with the Soviet squad auto, called the RPK.
Stamped receivers are the most versatile when it comes to playing around with different stocks. Milled receivers are a little more restricted when it comes to that.
Milled receivers can be identified by two milled out sections on either side of the receiver right above the mag well. These are just lightening cuts for the receiver, although they may help in making the receiver stiffer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/sam501.jpg
Stamped receivers, with two exceptions, should have two dimples, again, one on either side of the receiver above the mag well. They serve as magazine guides when reloading the weapon. The two exceptions are the Century Arms imported Romanian WASR-10 series, and the Russian SAIGA, although current SAIGA's might be coming in with the dimples. Stamped receivers can also be identified by the rivets that hold the front trunnion into the receiver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/pmkms02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%20Day%209-13-05/Half%20Sized%20Range%20Day/RangePics9-13-05002.jpg
RPK receivers are what the Yugoslavians use. They are 1.5mm thick stampings rather than the traditional 1mm, and the piece that holds the barrel to the receiver, the front trunnion, is oversized and reinforced, so they are very durable, stable receivers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MitchellAK-472.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MVC-028S.jpg
There are three main cailibers available in AK's.....
The original caliber is the 7.62x39mm, roughly equivalent to a .30-30 WCF in power. This is a "pure" assault rifle round, with a tapered case designed to make it easy to get into and out of a chamber quickly and easily. It is also the least accurate of the cartridges available for an AK, but it's by far the most prevalent cailber.
The 5.45x39mm was introduced in 1974 with the AK-74, it was the Soviet's attempt at the lightweight rifle/caliber concept. They saw the M16 being used in Vietnam and they wanted a round that was similar. The 5.45mm has less recoil and greater accuracy than the 7.62x39mm round, and is a lot of fun to shoot. The rounds also weigh less.
AK's can now also be had in 5.56x45mm. You know all about that round, but what's important to remember with AK's in this caliber is there were never any attempts to standardize parts or magazines among AK producing countries....they were always export rifles and the Warsaw Pact fell before they were widely available. If you get a rifle in this caliber, stock up on magazines and parts specific to the rifle you have. You can find Bulgarian, Chinese and Romanian stamped 5.56mm AK's, and milled receiver Bulgarian AK's, which are being issued in Columbia and are replacing other AK's in Bulgarian service now that Bulgaria is a junior member of NATO.
You'll also hear about pre-ban, post-ban, and no-ban rifles. For AK's, the first ban was in 1989, when Bush Sr. banned import of foreign made rifles by executive order. Prior to that, the Chinese, Egyptians, Hungarians and Yugoslavians imported AK's. The Israelis and Finns imported high end rifles based on the AK action, Galils and Valmets respectively.
There were rifles imported after 1989 that had thumbhole stocks, no muzzle brakes, no bayonet lugs, etc. These were the beginning of the post ban rifles. Then in 1994, the Crime Bill came.
Post ban imports came from Romania, Bulgaria, Eqypt, China, Hungary, and Russia. These would then have to be "unbanned" to have all the evil features that most of us want.
The end of the Crime Bill allowed domestic manufacture of rifles with evil features. You'll hear terms like "parts count". Parts count refers to the # of US parts in a foreign made rifle that allow it to then have evil features. If you have 10 or fewer foreign parts in the rifle, and ATF has a specific list of what you can replace, you can have a rifle with a bayonet lug, folding stock, threaded muzzle, etc.
Without a doubt, Arsenal Inc. makes the best AK out there, hands down. I've been shooting, buying, selling and collecting AK's for almost 20 years, and these guys build an AK better than anyone. They set up operations in the US, and as subsidiaries of Arsenal Bulgaria, they sent technicians and gunsmiths over from Bulgaria and Russia to build AK's here on modern CNC machinery with the original blue prints.
As to what to buy......think about how much you want to spend.
Pre-1989 imported rifles will still bring a premium. They don't have to worry about "parts counts" and they are the least molested, so collectors will pay top dollar for them.
Otherwise.....
Top of the line milled receiver AK's can go up to and over $1200.00. Some can be had for under $800.00. Again, another plug for Arsenal Inc. There are also Chinese milled receiver rifles out there, the pre-89 Polytech Legends, and there are post ban MAK-91's that are milled. There are also two types of Bulgarian post bans that were imported before Arsenal Inc. was set up, the SA-93 and the SLR-95. They can be had for around $500 or less and can be unbanned into some really nice rifles. The Bulgarian rifles use cold hammer forged barrels, extremely high quality.
Stamped receiver rifles are much more varied. Imported stamped receivers are typically the most desired. They aren't reverse engineered. Geometry and proper heat treatment of a stamped receiver are very important. It may sound like a simple thing to make a stamped receiver, but there really aren't any US receivers that are truely "in spec"....think about all the ruckus that the term "mil-spec" brings up when discussing AR's. Foreign stamped receivers are "mil-spec".
There are some well done domestic stamped receivers.....the ones offered my DCI/NODAK are the best, with Amory USA being very good as well.
Try to avoid Hesse, Vulcan, or early Ewbanks receivers. ITM/Ohio Ordnance have been around for a while, but they would be way, way, way down on my list of domestic receivers that are still acceptable.
A quality stamped receiver rifle can be had for $700.00 or less. The better rifles are actually "kit" rifles that were built from surplus rifles cut up as parts kits and then reassembled as complete rifles on new semi auto receivers with the proper # of US parts.
You'll want to know who built these up. Atlantic Arms offers some rifles built by Vector and Red Jacket that have a good track record. Armory USA/Arsenal USA have built many great rifles, although they went through a rough spot a while back. Current SA-85B's should be decent rifles.
Again, avoid Hesse/Vulcan, and some Ohio Rapidfire builds are worse than others.
Century imported a lot of rifles from Egypt and Romania, and they are now offering Yugoslavian kit rifles built on the excellent DCI receivers.
Century is VERY much hit and miss. You'll really want to inspect the rifle before buying, looking for canted front sights, bad triggers, and just overall quality.
Bear in mind that Century tries to sell a lot of rifles for a decent price, while they bring arms to the masses, sometimes quality suffers.
The WASR-10 is the cheapest, most prevalent AK out there right now. They are imported with a receiver that can't take military magazines, but Century then opens the magazine well to accept military mags. Some are quitre serviceable and represent a good value, but many have cosmetic issues and sights that aren't alligned properly.
AK's have a bad reputation, mostly unearned, for poor accuracy. They will never be bench rest rifles, but in terms of practical accuracy, they'll hang right in there with an AR with iron sights. I'm talking about unsupported real life shooting.
What's hurt the reputation in terms of accuracy for the AK is that people tend to buy the cheapest AK they can get and stuff the cheapest ammo they can find into it, and then want to compare it to their favorite AR.
I've beat guys in practical rifle competition using my iron sighted AK against their optically sighted AR.....
I know that this is a lot of information, and I've skimmed over a lot of issues.
Ask away on specific stuff.....there's a lot of knowledge on the board here, and you might also want to check out www.akforum.net, lots of very knowledgeable AK guys there.
I'm sure I've missed alot of stuff so chime in with any info!
That was the best AK write I have seen in years you never cut any brand down just stated facts. I have the Yugo under folder from Century Arms with the DCI receiver it is well built I also had the WASR10 I hated it and sold it after 300 rounds. My first AK was the MAK 90 I think it was from the late 80's it was a good shooting AK and i think it was well built.
Keithhttp://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o45/Nastynewt/9MM7.jpg
Jay Cunningham
12-13-07, 20:46
That's why Templar is the AK Guru.
:D
My answer is any AK I can lay my hand on.
:D
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Shooting/AK56PRC.jpg
if I can't get an AK, a RPD is OK :D
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Shooting/shootingRPD.jpg
Damn nice Type 56 Edmond.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/AKM3.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/gunmt8.gif http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/anim_wow.gif
yotesmoker
02-10-08, 07:54
Are there any arsenal ak's that has the scope mount on the side of the receiver?If not arsenal,any other good quality ak's with this mount?
Jay Cunningham
02-10-08, 08:39
Are there any arsenal ak's that has the scope mount on the side of the receiver?If not arsenal,any other good quality ak's with this mount?
There are plenty. If the rifle designator has an "R" in it it has the optics rail.
It was worth going through all that to find the forums, Thanks
Generic, all AK's, with the exception of the Yugoslavian and the Century Arms Yugo clones, have chrome lined barrels.
I just bought a Century Yugo today, and it states that it DOES have a hard chromed bolt and chrome lined barrel. What gives?
I'll take some pics later when I'm back at home (on shift for the next 24 right now)
What do you think about pre ban Norinco Type 56S and 56S-1 AKs ??
Maybe I skipped over it, but what about Krebs? How does the Krebs product compare to Arsenal?
I just bought a Century Yugo today, and it states that it DOES have a hard chromed bolt and chrome lined barrel. What gives?
I'll take some pics later when I'm back at home (on shift for the next 24 right now)
The Yugoslavians never used hard chrome barrels....and the US commercial barrels that Century uses, Green Mountain button rifled barrels, aren't chromed either.
The bolt carrier is left in the white, it's not hard chromed.
What do you think about pre ban Norinco Type 56S and 56S-1 AKs ??
They're great rifles. Very robust, the Chinese use the AK-47 gas system and barrel on a thicker stamped receiver. I also prefer the way the stock drops vs. the straighter drop of a European AKM.
It pains me that I remember selling them for $250-$350 back in the 1980's, and now they are going for $750 plus.
The Chinese and Russians were "friendly" in 1956 when the Soviet Union transferred technology for the SKS and the Type III milled AK-47 to the Chinese (which is why they're both called Type 56).
Then, things started to sour. China and Russia actually had some border skirmishes. The Soviets came out with the stamped AKM in 1959. The Chinese must have captured some, along with the RPK squad auto, in the late 60's.
The Chinese kept the thicker barrel and gas system of the AK-47, and used a thicker stamped receiver similar to an AKM-RPK hybrid, and used the front trunnion rivet pattern from the RPK.
I have one, they're great rifles.
Maybe I skipped over it, but what about Krebs? How does the Krebs product compare to Arsenal?
Krebs can build a hell of a nice rifle. I think you're paying a little extra for it coming out of the Krebs shop, but that's true of anything coming from a name brand smith.
On his stamped rifes, the finish is definitely nicer than the Arsenal Inc. stamped stuff.
He's done some very innovating things with the AK system.
They're great rifles. Very robust, the Chinese use the AK-47 gas system and barrel on a thicker stamped receiver. I also prefer the way the stock drops vs. the straighter drop of a European AKM.
It pains me that I remember selling them for $250-$350 back in the 1980's, and now they are going for $750 plus.
The Chinese and Russians were "friendly" in 1956 when the Soviet Union transferred technology for the SKS and the Type III milled AK-47 to the Chinese (which is why they're both called Type 56).
Then, things started to sour. China and Russia actually had some border skirmishes. The Soviets came out with the stamped AKM in 1959. The Chinese must have captured some, along with the RPK squad auto, in the late 60's.
The Chinese kept the thicker barrel and gas system of the AK-47, and used a thicker stamped receiver similar to an AKM-RPK hybrid, and used the front trunnion rivet pattern from the RPK.
I have one, they're great rifles.
Excellent !!
I made a deal on a pre ban type 56S last night and I pick it up this morning :cool:
UPDATE: it's a SILE N.Y. N.Y. import with 30 rounds fired - very clean :)
decodeddiesel
03-30-08, 11:26
Well I shot my first Bulgarian 74 (local builder on a NDS receiver). *sigh* My credit card is going to take a beating here very soon...
Templar,
I am looking for an entry level AK and am eyeing a couple used ones on Gunbroker. Can you give me a little info on how Hungarian and Egyptian Maadi Par 3's stack up vs a new WASR? I know WASR's are pretty bottom tier but I am not ready to drop the coin on a higher end one until I have a little trigger time on the platform.
Thanks!
-RD62
RD62, I'd need links to specific auctions you're looking at.
Factory Hungarian AKM's are some of the highest quality stamped AK's out there, period. There have been plenty built off of kits have have come in the country in the last few years, and it's important to know who built it up and the receiver and materials used.
PARS imported Maadis are very decent rifles.
You basically will find that the factory built rifles, with foreign receivers, tend to be regarded as a little better than good builds using parts kits on US receivers, but it also depends on who built it.
The WASR's can be very functional rifles, just look at it before you buy it, and try putting a mag in the mag well to check for fit.
Thanks Templar! The auctions are as follows:
Hungarian:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=98286197
Egyptian:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=98020391
I have emailed the seller of the Hungarian trying to get some pics of the receiver markings.
I have literally contacted every gun store and pawn shop in town and NO ONE has any AKs. There is one store that is a Century dealer, but they currently don't have any and have been telling me for weeks that they have some on order, but based on their attitudes I doubt they will be getting any of my $$$. So GB seems to be my only recourse. That and watching the local classifieds.
I saw a tutorial on how to straighten the canted WASR front sights and gas blocks, but I'm not too sure. Is Century pretty good about fixing them if you send it back?
-RD62
I've bought 3 Century Wasr's this year, and handled quite a few others and haven't seen a canted sight or gas block yet.
Perhaps they deliberately try to pawn those onto the folks that buy online, or maybe the two gunshops I frequent quietly pull the canted ones and ship them back before they ever hit the sales floor, I don't know.
I do know they must not all be bad, cause I have 3 good ones.
I've bought 3 Century Wasr's this year, and handled quite a few others and haven't seen a canted sight or gas block yet.
Perhaps they deliberately try to pawn those onto the folks that buy online, or maybe the two gunshops I frequent quietly pull the canted ones and ship them back before they ever hit the sales floor, I don't know.
I do know they must not all be bad, cause I have 3 good ones.
Definitely not all bad, there are a lot of decent ones out there, but it really does pay to be able to give it a once over before you buy.
torquemada055
05-11-08, 21:59
If you have the money and want custom wood you should give this guy a try.
http://gripsnstocks.com/
When I get the money he makes a purple heart wood stock set that will go on the wifes AK.
Until then she has to shoot my Bulgie SA-93 in flat black and military plastic.
That furniture looks great on that site. I'm thinking I need to eliminate the polystocks on my 2 underfolders ASAP.
ThirdWatcher
06-01-08, 19:37
This post has been most informative... in fact, it enticed me into the dark side. I bought a new Century Arms WASR the other day and took it to the range this morning. I think Mikhail knew exactly what he was doing when he originally designed the AK-47. While this weapon is in no way attractive in the conventional sense (like my Marlin lever actions, for example) there is a certain beauty in the simplicity of the design.
I won't part with my ARs, but they are built more like a Rolex while the AK is more like a Timex. The former is beautiful in its precision engineering while the latter "takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'."
Thanks for broadening my horizons.:)
I like my Chinese AK so much that I'm building a second one :cool:
http://www.athenswater.com/images/T56SHTF-PKG.jpg
i have a number of AK's that i have picked up over the years. even the cheapest WASR-10 i have functions near as possible to 100% even with the somewhat crappy russian ammo.
here is a way to get a quality AKM for about the least about of $$
buy a russian made saiga --they come in 223 and 7.62 and they are easy to turn back into the dreaded AK. you have to add a bullet guide, some AK furniture stuff,replace the trigger with a US made unit--and there are some good ones out there. an vola! you got a new chromed bore russian AK for like $350-$400 clams
ThirdWatcher
06-11-08, 20:08
Do AK-47 mags work in 'em?
The Wolf ammo I've been shootin' is damn good stuff.
decodeddiesel
08-04-08, 15:49
OK, so I think I finally made up my mind and I would like Bulgarian AK-74S (preferably with wood). I know there's a huge demand for these type of AKs right now, but what is the best way of going about getting one? Before anyone says "just build one", I just don't have the capability to do that right now. So that leaves me with pre-assebled kits.
Henderson Defense looks great, but there's a huge waiting list and I would like to have it sooner rather than later.
Ohio Rapid Fire looks like they have them in stock, but there's really no telling from their website and they haven't yet replied to my E-mails. Does anyone know what kind of lead times to expect from ORF? How is their build quality lately? I seem to remember they had some problems.
Any other custom builders out there who can turn out a good quality AK-74S within a reasonable amount of time?
Thanks!
ETA: I suppose I should mention I am really only interested in a 5.45x39 right now, and I just don't care for the Tantal.
building an AK type rifle isn't as attractive as it was just a couple years ago.
the bans on barrels, the drying up of the supply of de-milled kits and the big increase in prices make just about as effective cost wise to build a m-forgery.
i don't know about ohio-rapid fire. never ordered anything from them so i can't say.
if i was in the market to buy an AK-- i would look over at JG sales.
they may even have a few other rifles you might like better. their prices arn't the lowest but most everything i have bought from them has been top-notch for the $$.
decodeddiesel
08-04-08, 16:48
Thanks for the reply, unfortunately J&G sales doesn't have what I am looking for. I do like that company though, I buy ammo from them frequently.
decodeddiesel
08-04-08, 16:51
Do AK-47 mags work in 'em?
If you're referring to to AK-47 mags in a Saiga, then the answer is no, not without modification to the weapon. You would need to install a bullet guide, and grind down a small amount of the locking latch. Check out http://forum.saiga-12.com/.
Check this out!
http://www.ak-47.us/gear/AK47_Chart.php
http://www.ak-47.us/gear/AK47_Review_BB.php
http://www.ak-47.us/gear/AK47_ReviewList.php
I was always a huge fan of the Egyptian MISR's they are much better than the rest of the pack and are as close to original soviet AKM's as I could ever get but if the threads were removed they serve me no purpose, gotta have my brakes:D
Here is mine:
Guess what it is?
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_0369.jpg
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_0354.jpg
And my other one:
http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/9545/dsc1236gh1.jpg
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5995/dsc1249qo7.jpg
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4087/dsc1253sw5.jpg
And my other:
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_7440.jpg
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_7442.jpg
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_7444.jpg
One more that I cannot find still photos of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aFLUGq1gvM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmarshall-arms.com%2FTestimonials.php&feature=player_embedded
Read through this thread twice last night and my head's a buzz and still absorbing the information that Templar posted at the outset after the OP's.
What tuned me into this particular thread is because a fellow at work is selling his AK-47 that piqued my interest, and I don't know nothing for nothing about these particular rifles. Will have to find out more information about his AK-47, if it hasn't been sold already! :cool:
I'm more of an 'assault weapons' collector so I generally lean toward the more difficult items to acquire, that said, I am a big fan of Polyteck AK's. Problem is, they were only imported for two years (1988 and 1989), as one might imagine, this makes them relatively difficult to acquire.
That said, they are some of the finest AKs money can buy. They were built to Chinese military specs , with the exception of being full auto.
RD62, I'd need links to specific auctions you're looking at.
Factory Hungarian AKM's are some of the highest quality stamped AK's out there, period. There have been plenty built off of kits have have come in the country in the last few years, and it's important to know who built it up and the receiver and materials used.
I used to have one of those thumbhole stocked Hungarian AK's in pristine condition that I sold to a member here.
If I remember correctly he was supposed to show me some pics after he converted it.
Don't recall that I ever saw them...hello Lumpy!
Hers is my Arsenal SLR-105R converted to an AK-105 by AK-USA
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4090P5170001.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4090P5170019.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/4090P5170003.JPG
Dirk Williams
09-16-09, 12:44
KATAR, I have one of these Valmets, rather most of one. I received it in a trade years ago minus the bolt group and the stock. I've put other AK bolts into the weapon and they seem to funtion fine, however I haven't actually shot projectiles out of it.
My question is do you or anybody in here know if the regular Chi Com or Romanian bolt groups will work and hold up under firing. I'd hate to damage the rifle by doing something foolish. If so where can I purchase the bolt group, I had thought of a Galil set up, Advice please.
Dirk
Jay Cunningham
09-16-09, 13:32
I am sure that Templar can answer your question; Valmets are outside my experience.
What would one look for if they decided to buy an AK? Is there a preferred manufacture / type?
https://www.m4carbine.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=3208&d=1253071330
You can not go wrong with an IMI Galil...... You will get a milled receiver, 5.56mm 1 / 7 barrel, a longer sight radius, and outstanding quality and fit, but you do pay for all that, they are not cheap...
KATAR, I have one of these Valmets, rather most of one. I received it in a trade years ago minus the bolt group and the stock.
If so where can I purchase the bolt group, I had thought of a Galil set up, Advice please.
Dirk
The early IMI Galils were all built in Israel on Valmet receivers that were imported from the land of the Vikings, so if you use original IMI Galil AR parts, they should interchange with no issues… What caliber Valmet do you have and exactly what parts do you need???
B
Dirk Williams
09-20-09, 19:59
Sorry for the delay I work in another state and am not able to chat when away from home. I have a fairly clean Valmet 7.62X39, 62/S. I'm missing the complete bolt group and the stock assembly. I'd like to put the proper parts back in the gun but am willing to purchase what ever will work.
Ive had this gun in the closet for about 10 years now and would like to make it work. I suspect someone tried to turn the gun on and hosed the bolt no idea where the stock went.
Also will the stock from the Galil fit this receiver?.
Thank you in for the return data.
Dirk Williams
I would not trust a Bulgarian, Romanian, Polish, etc. bolt in a Valmet. Parts are getting very hard to get, especially for the 7.62x39mm guns, as not many were brought in.
Try cruising www.sturmgewehr.com, place a WTB ad. Also try www.theakforum.net, and place a want to buy ad. There are several Finnish collectors/shooters who sometimes participate there, and that will be your best bet.
Yes, you can put a Galil stock on a Valmet milled 62/S, but it's something only a seriously qualified AK smith should try.
How do you guys rate the preban Chinese Polytech AKS -762?
Rate pretty well - Polytech above a Norinco. Apparent in the $ premium they demand.
Rate pretty well - Polytech above a Norinco. Apparent in the $ premium they demand.
Thanks for the info. I've had it in my closet ever since I picked it up for around $300 from a gun shop I used to work at while I was in college around 1990 :D
This is quite a thread.
Living in CA posed a bit of a problem for me when I made the decision to travel into the dark side of AKs. :(
I was better off buying the parts kits, getting a receiver, then either mailing it off or taking it to a local smith; it was either that or try and find one in state (and pay a lot more) or find one that someone would make CA-compliant then transfer it in (unlikely AND expensive).
The first step I took was buying a Romy-G kit from Copes almost 2 years ago. After a while and much reading I decided I wanted an AK-74 (when all the kits started drying up) as well. I ordered a Polish Tantal kit from Florida Gun Works.
I sat on the kits for a looong time until I decided to buy some receivers. I ended up getting both receivers (NDS-3 and NDS-2T) from Nodak Spud and DROSed them on Halloween of 2008 (along with 3 AR-15 stripped lowers). Good thing for me since everything blew up on 11/4/08 :mad:
Over the following months I acquired whatever 922(r) parts I needed as well as a set of Ironwood furniture for my Romy-G. I decided on the Warsaw length stock since my roommate's NATO length stock is too big for me. I also opted to get the MonsterMan Grip (another CA-style waste of time) to make my rifles legal (removes the "pistol grip" evil feature).
I took both kits and all parts to a local smith over the summer and went over how I wanted to build and finish each one. The AK-74 got a fixed stock installed and was parked and painted. I must say the fit and finish is top notch.
Photo:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/hossb7/AK-74001.jpg
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i231/hossb7/AK-74004.jpg
Don't mind the stupid grip (yes, it swaps out with the real one by unscrewing the bolt).
I'm still waiting for the Romy-G but hopefully it should be done soon. :D
goodoleboy
01-07-10, 21:06
AK's have a bad reputation, mostly unearned, for poor accuracy. They will never be bench rest rifles, but in terms of practical accuracy, they'll hang right in there with an AR with iron sights. I'm talking about unsupported real life shooting.
What's hurt the reputation in terms of accuracy for the AK is that people tend to buy the cheapest AK they can get and stuff the cheapest ammo they can find into it, and then want to compare it to their favorite AR.
I've beat guys in practical rifle competition using my iron sighted AK against their optically sighted AR.....
I know that this is a lot of information, and I've skimmed over a lot of issues.
Ask away on specific stuff.....there's a lot of knowledge on the board here, and you might also want to check out www.akforum.net, lots of very knowledgeable AK guys there.
I'm sure I've missed alot of stuff so chime in with any info!
I have to agree. I own a Century built M70AB2 Yugoslavian Underfolder that will hold its own with iron sighted ARs. I agree that Century can be very hit or miss and I went through several before I finally settled on one.
The thing I love about AKs is they are so easy to clean, especially if it were under combat conditions (in a foxhole, at night, in a downpour). Besides, if your weapon ever became inoperable (ie: run over by a tank or hit by a 500 lb dud served up from 30,000 ft) you could always take the bolt carrier assembly out and use it as a club.
They might not be pretty, but they are extremely reliable, accurate enough for the purpose they were designed for, and the ammo is much cheaper than for an AR (especially in the 5.45X39 variety).
I love my AR to death, but I like my AK quite a bit.
The deal killer for the AK is the sights are horrid. I could tape a drinking straw onto an AK and it may be an improvement.
The Galil and Valmet both fix this.
Excellant read. Answered alot of questions and thoughts I had.
Chuck Finley
08-09-10, 22:26
Thoughts or comments on HDI built AK47's, their SBR model with the side folder and 11.5 inch barrel ?
Thoughts or comments on HDI built AK47's, their SBR model with the side folder and 11.5 inch barrel ?
Henderson Defense? They sell Century rifles that they go over.
I've not seen any of their AK's that they build. Do you have a link?
Chuck Finley
08-10-10, 13:17
I know of 1 for sale and was wanting to get some input as to HDI's quality on their builds.
I also checked HDI's website but found nothing in their NFA section reference SBR AK47's.
I have not seen the weapon yet, but hope to by Fri.
http://shop.hendersondefense.biz/category.sc?categoryId=4
http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/AK-47-Combloc-Rifles-and-Carbines-c3.htm
It looks like I am adding to my collection...picking up a AMD 65 side folder this weekend. Looking for info on quality, problems to look out for, and so on. I don't have too much info on this AK yet, but I can tell already I will want to change out the stock. Suggestions?
It looks like I am adding to my collection...picking up a AMD 65 side folder this weekend. Looking for info on quality, problems to look out for, and so on. I don't have too much info on this AK yet, but I can tell already I will want to change out the stock. Suggestions?
Who built it and on what receiver?
I don't know, honestly. Sounds silly to buy a gun I don't much about, but a buddy found some one hard up for cash, and we are splitting a AK and SKS package for a steal.
I have seen a pic, and it has the crappy wire stock, light wood fore grip, and what looks like a Tapco plastic grip.
Who built it and on what receiver?
I have a little more info, even though I still have not seen the gun. Apparently it is a ITM Arms MK 99 receiver built on an AMD 65 kit...don't know who put it together. My buddy who made the deal says he is impressed with the fit, feel, and condition.
I have a little more info, even though I still have not seen the gun. Apparently it is a ITM Arms MK 99 receiver built on an AMD 65 kit...don't know who put it together. My buddy who made the deal says he is impressed with the fit, feel, and condition.
That receiver isn't in spec, and isn't properly heat treated.
I'd pass.
It was an early attempt at a US made AKM receiver.
NinjaMedic
10-11-10, 13:20
Templar - Since the SA-M7 Classic was a limited production run and now quite pricy, if you had to recomend one builder or company where would you source an AKM from right now?
Templar - Since the SA-M7 Classic was a limited production run and now quite pricy, if you had to recomend one builder or company where would you source an AKM from right now?
If you can get a good parts kit, and a Nodak receiver, and wanted an AKM built up, I'd go with Mario at Piece of History Firearms.
http://www.pieceofhistoryfirearms.com/
I've seen the work he's done for LAV, and it's impeccable.
NinjaMedic
10-11-10, 16:00
Thanks for the advice Templar
Great thread.
How do SAR-1's hold up. Is it true that they are the same as Romanian military guns without the F/A FCG? Mine has the typical AK reliability. But i always wondered if they hold up in the long run or fall apart at the most inopportune moment. Wondered this because the same QC issues for things like canted sights and poor finishes might carry over to the more important parts? like heat treating and putting the gun together.
I can't answer that authoritatively, but I did have an older Romak-1 AKM clone produced by Cugir... it was a hell of a lot nicer than any SAR or WASR. Parkerized finish.
Bolt_Overide
10-14-10, 02:40
Worship at the church of templar my son, and AK goodness will be yours.
Can someone give me any insight into this weapon:
http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Century-Certified-Golani-Sporter-12p113.htm
I've always wanted a Galil since test firing one several years ago. Also, if you don't recommend this particular weapon, can you point me inthe direction of a good Galil.
TIA
Can someone give me any insight into this weapon:
http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Century-Certified-Golani-Sporter-12p113.htm
I've always wanted a Galil since test firing one several years ago. Also, if you don't recommend this particular weapon, can you point me inthe direction of a good Galil.
TIA
The important parts of that rifle are US made, which isn't a good thing.
1/9" non chrome lined .223 chambered commercial barrel. If it has an Ohio Rapidfire receiver, run, don't walk, away.
"Real" Galil variants are expensive. Typically you'll expect to pay $2.5K and up for a pre-1989 Import Ban IMI Galil from Magnum Research or Action Arms. The post '89, pre '94 Ban guns that were imported by Springfield Armory or Mossberg can be unbanned, and retain the all important proper receiver and factory barrel. They'll run about $1.5K or so.
These are all going to be secondary market used or NIB guns.
No one that I'm aware of makes a satisfactory US receiver or barrel for the Galils. The ones that Century offers are built using absolute beat to shit parts kits that came out of Guatemala with out of spec US receivers and barrels.
Thanks for the heads up. Might have to look into an AK versus a Galil.
Wife would kill me if I spent 2k on a rifle. :laugh:
Here is mine:
Guess what it is?
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_0369.jpg
http://www.silencertests.com/albums/MarshallArms/IMG_0354.jpg
I know this is an old thread but I'll take a stab at guessing...
The fixed AKM project appears to be built on a transferable Maadi FA receiver as a host with a Russian AKM parts kit.
The AK-105 project appears to be built on a transferable Chinese FA, built using Bulgarian parts.
The AK-74 is also a FA transferable Chinese receiver with Bulgarian 74 parts.
BTW very nice builds !!!
Great thread.
How do SAR-1's hold up. Is it true that they are the same as Romanian military guns without the F/A FCG? Mine has the typical AK reliability. But i always wondered if they hold up in the long run or fall apart at the most inopportune moment. Wondered this because the same QC issues for things like canted sights and poor finishes might carry over to the more important parts? like heat treating and putting the gun together.
Plenty of the Romanian Military guns have those same issues. Canted sights are quite common on the demilled parts kits, and not just the Romanian ones in my experience. Some of the worst canted sights I have seen were on demilled Polish kits, and those often get held up as top of the line...
I am really satisfied with the Romanian (CUGIR) made firearms I have used along the years.
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/AK/1.jpg
http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z69/Quickload/Romanian%20PSL/SVDRO1.jpg
Gentlemen,
I am considering my first AK. By my reading of this thread the two I am considering should be of decent quality.
One is a Polish Tantal AK74 with wire stock. Am I correct this is worthwhile weapon? And next is the wire stock replaceable?
The other is a Bulgarian AK74 offered by Wideners with US made receiver. That is all I know about that one.
Thanks
Gentlemen,
I am considering my first AK. By my reading of this thread the two I am considering should be of decent quality.
One is a Polish Tantal AK74 with wire stock. Am I correct this is worthwhile weapon? And next is the wire stock replaceable?
The other is a Bulgarian AK74 offered by Wideners with US made receiver. That is all I know about that one.
Thanks
Need to know who built the Tantal or the Bulgarian and whether it has a US barrel or an original barrel, and what parts went into it. Yes, the wire stock can be replaced with a standard AKM/AK-74 stock.
If you have links to the weapons you're looking at, that would help.
Try this for the Bulgarian:
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=10000021&dir=700|701
The Polish Tantal is in a local shop, so I'll have to go back and get more details.
Try this for the Bulgarian:
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=10000021&dir=700|701
The Polish Tantal is in a local shop, so I'll have to go back and get more details.
That Bulgarian would be a no-go for me. Non chromed US commercial barrel, unknown US receiver.
Iceland Marc
11-18-10, 11:02
I have a pre-ban Norinco Under Folder. It never misses a beat, always fires and isn't a picky eater. It is a good solid rifle, no complaints. ;)
That Bulgarian would be a no-go for me. Non chromed US commercial barrel, unknown US receiver.
Thank you Sir. That was the info I was looking for. Gun show this weekend, I feel better armed.
What is your opinion on the MAK-90? If you owned one would you make any changes to it?
Here is a pic of mine in its current state. I plan on adding an Ultimak and T1.
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/7059/sam0590.jpg
What is your opinion on the MAK-90? If you owned one would you make any changes to it?
Here is a pic of mine in its current state. I plan on adding an Ultimak and T1.
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/7059/sam0590.jpg
MAK's are every bit as well made as the pre-1989 imported preban Chinese rifles.
I've owned them in the past, as a matter of fact it I had one as my only rifle when I sold everything and went back to school to work on a couple degrees.
If I were going to use one as a primary, I'd unban the rifle, install an Ultimak, Aimpoint Micro, SWIFT or latest generation of Krebs speed safeties, and call it good.
Good looking MAK.
Thank you for the info Templar. Very helpful.
To be honest I’m not sure how I would go about unbanning the rifle. Do you know of any sites that sell the required parts??
Thank you for the info Templar. Very helpful.
To be honest I’m not sure how I would go about unbanning the rifle. Do you know of any sites that sell the required parts??
I think that K-Var offers the best US made synthetic stocks (standard "Warsaw Pact" length). If you want wood, the best US made wood stocks are available from Ironwood Designs. I like K-Var's US made FCG as well. The only thing I'd look at Tapco for is their G2 FCG.
Remember on the Chinese milled and stamped rifles, and the Bulgarian milled rifles, need the double hook fire control group.
Templar - Since the SA-M7 Classic was a limited production run and now quite pricy, if you had to recomend one builder or company where would you source an AKM from right now?
If your stuck on getting a "classic" milled receiver AK, look at the Arsenal SA-93's. You would have to "un-ban" it but it would be a lot less than a Arsenal Classic. Here is one that I did for a buddy, the grip was later refinished to match the rest of the wood (I did not install the handguard for the pics)
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l41/ak_fan2000/IMG_2834.jpg
bondmid003
11-21-10, 11:39
Templar, is it true there are issues with the SLR's folding stocks. Yesterday at a gun show a dealer told that to my father who was looking at SLR's for me.
Templar, is it true there are issues with the SLR's folding stocks. Yesterday at a gun show a dealer told that to my father who was looking at SLR's for me.
I haven't seen any, no. What "issues" was the dealer talking about?
decodeddiesel
11-21-10, 16:23
Templar, is it true there are issues with the SLR's folding stocks. Yesterday at a gun show a dealer told that to my father who was looking at SLR's for me.
Personally I would not put any sort of confidence whats so ever in the word of a gun show dealer.
The side folding poly stocks of the century series AKs are a huge improvement over anything else yet fielded.
Well, let's start with basics.
There are three types of AK receivers, ones made from forged and milled steel, ones that are made from sheet metal stampings, and ones that are made with heavier gauge reinforced stampings.
You'll hear terms like milled, stamped, and RPK type receivers, which correspond to the three types.
Milled receivers are correctly AK-47's, stamped receivers would be an AKM or AK-74. Reinforced stamped receivers would be known as RPK or Yugoslavian type.
All three work fine, but it's much more important with a stamped receiver that it's done "right".
Stamped receivers are much, much less expensive to manufacture. Milled receivers just scream quality and they tend to provide a more stable platform and are generally more accurate. The reinforced stamped receivers are thicker than a standard stamped receiver, and they use oversized reinforced trunnions that hold the barrel into the receiver. These are also called RPK receivers since they were developed for use with the Soviet squad auto, called the RPK.
Stamped receivers are the most versatile when it comes to playing around with different stocks. Milled receivers are a little more restricted when it comes to that.
Milled receivers can be identified by two milled out sections on either side of the receiver right above the mag well. These are just lightening cuts for the receiver, although they may help in making the receiver stiffer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/sam501.jpg
Stamped receivers, with two exceptions, should have two dimples, again, one on either side of the receiver above the mag well. They serve as magazine guides when reloading the weapon. The two exceptions are the Century Arms imported Romanian WASR-10 series, and the Russian SAIGA, although current SAIGA's might be coming in with the dimples. Stamped receivers can also be identified by the rivets that hold the front trunnion into the receiver.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%206-11-06/pmkms02.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Range%20Day%209-13-05/Half%20Sized%20Range%20Day/RangePics9-13-05002.jpg
RPK receivers are what the Yugoslavians use. They are 1.5mm thick stampings rather than the traditional 1mm, and the piece that holds the barrel to the receiver, the front trunnion, is oversized and reinforced, so they are very durable, stable receivers.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MitchellAK-472.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MVC-028S.jpg
There are three main cailibers available in AK's.....
The original caliber is the 7.62x39mm, roughly equivalent to a .30-30 WCF in power. This is a "pure" assault rifle round, with a tapered case designed to make it easy to get into and out of a chamber quickly and easily. It is also the least accurate of the cartridges available for an AK, but it's by far the most prevalent cailber.
The 5.45x39mm was introduced in 1974 with the AK-74, it was the Soviet's attempt at the lightweight rifle/caliber concept. They saw the M16 being used in Vietnam and they wanted a round that was similar. The 5.45mm has less recoil and greater accuracy than the 7.62x39mm round, and is a lot of fun to shoot. The rounds also weigh less.
AK's can now also be had in 5.56x45mm. You know all about that round, but what's important to remember with AK's in this caliber is there were never any attempts to standardize parts or magazines among AK producing countries....they were always export rifles and the Warsaw Pact fell before they were widely available. If you get a rifle in this caliber, stock up on magazines and parts specific to the rifle you have. You can find Bulgarian, Chinese and Romanian stamped 5.56mm AK's, and milled receiver Bulgarian AK's, which are being issued in Columbia and are replacing other AK's in Bulgarian service now that Bulgaria is a junior member of NATO.
You'll also hear about pre-ban, post-ban, and no-ban rifles. For AK's, the first ban was in 1989, when Bush Sr. banned import of foreign made rifles by executive order. Prior to that, the Chinese, Egyptians, Hungarians and Yugoslavians imported AK's. The Israelis and Finns imported high end rifles based on the AK action, Galils and Valmets respectively.
There were rifles imported after 1989 that had thumbhole stocks, no muzzle brakes, no bayonet lugs, etc. These were the beginning of the post ban rifles. Then in 1994, the Crime Bill came.
Post ban imports came from Romania, Bulgaria, Eqypt, China, Hungary, and Russia. These would then have to be "unbanned" to have all the evil features that most of us want.
The end of the Crime Bill allowed domestic manufacture of rifles with evil features. You'll hear terms like "parts count". Parts count refers to the # of US parts in a foreign made rifle that allow it to then have evil features. If you have 10 or fewer foreign parts in the rifle, and ATF has a specific list of what you can replace, you can have a rifle with a bayonet lug, folding stock, threaded muzzle, etc.
Without a doubt, Arsenal Inc. makes the best AK out there, hands down. I've been shooting, buying, selling and collecting AK's for almost 20 years, and these guys build an AK better than anyone. They set up operations in the US, and as subsidiaries of Arsenal Bulgaria, they sent technicians and gunsmiths over from Bulgaria and Russia to build AK's here on modern CNC machinery with the original blue prints.
As to what to buy......think about how much you want to spend.
Pre-1989 imported rifles will still bring a premium. They don't have to worry about "parts counts" and they are the least molested, so collectors will pay top dollar for them.
Otherwise.....
Top of the line milled receiver AK's can go up to and over $1200.00. Some can be had for under $800.00. Again, another plug for Arsenal Inc. There are also Chinese milled receiver rifles out there, the pre-89 Polytech Legends, and there are post ban MAK-91's that are milled. There are also two types of Bulgarian post bans that were imported before Arsenal Inc. was set up, the SA-93 and the SLR-95. They can be had for around $500 or less and can be unbanned into some really nice rifles. The Bulgarian rifles use cold hammer forged barrels, extremely high quality.
Stamped receiver rifles are much more varied. Imported stamped receivers are typically the most desired. They aren't reverse engineered. Geometry and proper heat treatment of a stamped receiver are very important. It may sound like a simple thing to make a stamped receiver, but there really aren't any US receivers that are truely "in spec"....think about all the ruckus that the term "mil-spec" brings up when discussing AR's. Foreign stamped receivers are "mil-spec".
There are some well done domestic stamped receivers.....the ones offered my DCI/NODAK are the best, with Amory USA being very good as well.
Try to avoid Hesse, Vulcan, or early Ewbanks receivers. ITM/Ohio Ordnance have been around for a while, but they would be way, way, way down on my list of domestic receivers that are still acceptable.
A quality stamped receiver rifle can be had for $700.00 or less. The better rifles are actually "kit" rifles that were built from surplus rifles cut up as parts kits and then reassembled as complete rifles on new semi auto receivers with the proper # of US parts.
You'll want to know who built these up. Atlantic Arms offers some rifles built by Vector and Red Jacket that have a good track record. Armory USA/Arsenal USA have built many great rifles, although they went through a rough spot a while back. Current SA-85B's should be decent rifles.
Again, avoid Hesse/Vulcan, and some Ohio Rapidfire builds are worse than others.
Century imported a lot of rifles from Egypt and Romania, and they are now offering Yugoslavian kit rifles built on the excellent DCI receivers.
Century is VERY much hit and miss. You'll really want to inspect the rifle before buying, looking for canted front sights, bad triggers, and just overall quality.
Bear in mind that Century tries to sell a lot of rifles for a decent price, while they bring arms to the masses, sometimes quality suffers.
The WASR-10 is the cheapest, most prevalent AK out there right now. They are imported with a receiver that can't take military magazines, but Century then opens the magazine well to accept military mags. Some are quitre serviceable and represent a good value, but many have cosmetic issues and sights that aren't alligned properly.
AK's have a bad reputation, mostly unearned, for poor accuracy. They will never be bench rest rifles, but in terms of practical accuracy, they'll hang right in there with an AR with iron sights. I'm talking about unsupported real life shooting.
What's hurt the reputation in terms of accuracy for the AK is that people tend to buy the cheapest AK they can get and stuff the cheapest ammo they can find into it, and then want to compare it to their favorite AR.
I've beat guys in practical rifle competition using my iron sighted AK against their optically sighted AR.....
I know that this is a lot of information, and I've skimmed over a lot of issues.
Ask away on specific stuff.....there's a lot of knowledge on the board here, and you might also want to check out www.akforum.net, lots of very knowledgeable AK guys there.
I'm sure I've missed alot of stuff so chime in with any info!
The only thing I see that is not here is whether or not it makes a good jack handle in a pinch. I have never thought too much about buying one, yet reading your posts makes me want to. Plus, you do it in a professional, non arrogant manner. Great job.
The only thing I see that is not here is whether or not it makes a good jack handle in a pinch. I have never thought too much about buying one, yet reading your posts makes me want to. Plus, you do it in a professional, non arrogant manner. Great job.
Thanks. That post was written originally in 2006, and a lot of things have changed.
I'll have to work up an updated addition to try to make it more relevant.
bondmid003
11-21-10, 19:11
Thanks Templar, I have a feeling the guy was just trying to get my dad to buy an SGL because he had them at the show and he would have to order an SLR since he didn't have any there.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/MitchellAK-472.jpg
I noticed the safety lever tab appears to be closer to the rear than on other AK's. Is this native to the yugo AK? Is it more functional than the traditional safety levers?
I noticed the safety lever tab appears to be closer to the rear than on other AK's. Is this native to the yugo AK? Is it more functional than the traditional safety levers?
I honestly never really noticed a difference in the ergos between a Yugo lever and any other military lever.
The Yugo underfolders have a safety that has an extra tab towards the rear of the lever that makes it much easier to disengage the safety while the stock is folded, but it doesn't necessarily make it faster or easier vs. a standard selector, or allow you to disengage the selector without breaking your master grip.
This is a pic that I took....6 years ago, of the Mitchell Arms imported Yugo I had. It also shows the construction of the Yugo reinforced RPK type receiver and trunnion.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/opencover.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
11-22-10, 17:44
Hey Templar.
Would you say getting an AK-105 R from Arsenal and having it converted to an AK-105 SBR is a good idea? (I remember reading that it's a 12.7'' barrel.)
I'd replace the flash suppressor, and try to find Galil furniture.
If I were to build an AK the requirements would be that the front sight is integral to the gas block, it has to be milled, 7.62x39mm, and needs to be an SBR.
Is this a good way to accomplish that? Thanks.
Hey Templar.
Would you say getting an AK-105 R from Arsenal and having it converted to an AK-105 SBR is a good idea? (I remember reading that it's a 12.7'' barrel.)
I'd replace the flash suppressor, and try to find Galil furniture.
If I were to build an AK the requirements would be that the front sight is integral to the gas block, it has to be milled, 7.62x39mm, and needs to be an SBR.
Is this a good way to accomplish that? Thanks.
Arsenal doesn't make a milled receiver rifle with the front sight on the gas block, so you'd have to build what you're looking for using one of the SLR-100 Bulgarian receivers that might be floating around, or a Firing Line milled receiver made in the USA.
Do you have a link for the model that you listed? The SLR-105A1/A1R was a 5.45x39mm rifle that was imported for a while, and they were standard AK-74's with stamped receivers.
Magic_Salad0892
11-23-10, 02:53
Sorry, I was getting them mixed up. Though I really don't know how...
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7rb.htm
If somebody cut the barrel, and I replaced the gas block, do you think this would work and the gun would still function well?
Sorry, I was getting them mixed up. Though I really don't know how...
http://www.arsenalinc.com/sam7rb.htm
If somebody cut the barrel, and I replaced the gas block, do you think this would work and the gun would still function well?
It probably would, but I'd contact one of the well known, well respected AK smiths about it.
The milled receiver is going to limit your stock choices, but you can get an ACE stock set up and have a smith cut the two tangs that hold the buttstock on to install it.
Magic_Salad0892
11-23-10, 06:51
The ACE stock is actually the exact stock I wanted. :)
Thanks for the help Templar.
One more thing: Do you know where to find the gas block I'm looking for?
The ACE stock is actually the exact stock I wanted. :)
Thanks for the help Templar.
One more thing: Do you know where to find the gas block I'm looking for?
If anyone would, it would be K-Var, but they don't list any.
You can get the entire barrel assembly, but again, I'd contact someone like Mario at Piece of History Firearms (http://pieceofhistoryfirearms.com/) before making the purchase, to get his take on whether it's useable and how much it would run to put your project together.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16578&cat=274&page=1
I'm not sure if this has been covered yet - but if you decide on a stamped AK be sure you get a side rail for optics. It's a lot easier to not use it if you don't want to than to not have one when you do.
Magic_Salad0892
11-23-10, 18:28
If anyone would, it would be K-Var, but they don't list any.
You can get the entire barrel assembly, but again, I'd contact someone like Mario at Piece of History Firearms (http://pieceofhistoryfirearms.com/) before making the purchase, to get his take on whether it's useable and how much it would run to put your project together.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16578&cat=274&page=1
Thanks for the advice, Templar.
Templar, looking for Saiga advice. Thinking of picking up a basic "sporter" Saiga to play with, and hang on to for later projects since the prices seem low right now. But since I think I am sure I would prefer a full conversion, would it be better to just buy an Arsenal and be done?
CumbiaDude
12-28-10, 13:57
Templar, looking for Saiga advice. Thinking of picking up a basic "sporter" Saiga to play with, and hang on to for later projects since the prices seem low right now. But since I think I am sure I would prefer a full conversion, would it be better to just buy an Arsenal and be done?I'm not Templar, but I am finishing up doing exactly what you are contemplating.
I took a full sporter 16" Saiga and turned it into a near-clone of an AK-103. Lots of grinding, cutting, hammering, welding, re-riveting. I am very happy with the project, the experience, the result, etc. However, if you aren't interested in actually doing the work, just get an Arsenal. It's no cheaper to do it yourself, and there is a lot of work involved, so if you don't like the work then you are left with no advantage.
Edit: Oh, unless you want to be paranoid about getting it done a certain way... for example, the rivet shapes are this, the bullet guide is that, etc. Arsenals don't have a pistol grip reinforcement plate, for example, so you'd need to add it yourself if you wanted it (which means re-riveting and welding and repainting). So if you want it EXACT, it may be better to do it yourself. If you aren't super picky, then an Arsenal would be better.
I am no expert on AKs, but I do own a Chinese MAK-90
I have been impressed with how solid it is, and the fact it sat for 20 years before it was shot and worked fine.
Followed up with research, and found the receiver is listed as 1.6mm which is really solid.
Barrel is chromed and heavier than normal.
Trigger is consider the best AK (not sure if they can get any worse, but......)
If you want a good AK, that would look to be an excellent choice. The Thumbhole stock can be changed out to to a standard configuration and be legal with 5 US parts. Stock, grip and forearm are 3 (Ironwood makes good ones specifically for MAK-90 setup, either square or slant receiver). The wood top does not count.
You still need 2 more US parts. To keep the original character the easiest way would be to get a US made magazine, that's 3 parts putting you over by one.
Keep the Thumbhole, they are starting to become worth some money.
If you want to stick close to the standard AK-103, the Arsenal is your best bet. I personally prefer to go the Saiga conversion route because it is cheaper to have it 'my way'. If you are going to replace the FCG, FSB, muzzle device, pistol grip, gas tube, and stock on the Arsenal anyway you will save a significant amount by just purchasing the Saiga and adding the parts you want.
I'm not Templar, but I am finishing up doing exactly what you are contemplating.
I took a full sporter 16" Saiga and turned it into a near-clone of an AK-103. Lots of grinding, cutting, hammering, welding, re-riveting. I am very happy with the project, the experience, the result, etc. However, if you aren't interested in actually doing the work, just get an Arsenal. It's no cheaper to do it yourself, and there is a lot of work involved, so if you don't like the work then you are left with no advantage.
Edit: Oh, unless you want to be paranoid about getting it done a certain way... for example, the rivet shapes are this, the bullet guide is that, etc. Arsenals don't have a pistol grip reinforcement plate, for example, so you'd need to add it yourself if you wanted it (which means re-riveting and welding and repainting). So if you want it EXACT, it may be better to do it yourself. If you aren't super picky, then an Arsenal would be better.
Magic_Salad0892
01-07-11, 07:52
If anybody wants a Gas Block with a built in front sight, Rifle Dynamics has their ''custom front end'' with a Bolten gas block.
:)
snakedoctor
01-07-11, 09:56
is the metal triangle side folder uncomfortable on the cheek or shoulder when shooting? thinking about getting one of Arsenals.
decodeddiesel
01-07-11, 10:35
It is of course a matter of opinion. I have a metal triangle folder on my 5.56 Saiga, and I can say that I really like this stock. It does kind of suck however on really hot days if left in the sun, and on really cold days. Also I am not sure if I would want this stock on a 7.62 Saiga due to the additional recoil, but on a 5.56 or 5.45 is works well. Honestly I love how this stock looks on an AK and prefer it from a purely aesthetic standpoint to the polymer side folders, and also it weighs quite a bit less.
However with this being said the polymer "100 series" stocks you see on the SLR series rifles from Arsenal blow the metal triangles out of the water for comfort, "shoot-ability", and durability.
Machurtado
01-25-11, 18:44
Hey guys new to the forum and already have a couple of ARs but want to come to the dark side and get my first throw away AK I was looking at this one and was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about it. Thanks for all the info.
http://www.classicarms.us/
Hey guys new to the forum and already have a couple of ARs but want to come to the dark side and get my first throw away AK I was looking at this one and was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about it. Thanks for all the info.
http://www.classicarms.us/
Which one? There are several on that page.
To be honest, I don't have a high opinion of anything that Century is putting out, and Classic Arms hasn't had the best rep.
Just_Plain_T.
01-26-11, 07:56
is the metal triangle side folder uncomfortable on the cheek or shoulder when shooting? thinking about getting one of Arsenals.
I have an AK with this stock, and I've had no issues with it. Shoots fine, and is plenty comfortable in my opinion. If you want, you can always wrap some paracord on the top of it for a cheek weld if you don't like the metal as is.
http://files.sentinelspaintball.com/100_0959.jpg
is the metal triangle side folder uncomfortable on the cheek or shoulder when shooting? thinking about getting one of Arsenals.
The metal will transfer heat and cold to your cheek.
There's a reason why the Russians/Bulgarians went with a synthetic as soon as they were able to.
The bright side is that it's very easy to swap between the steel and the polymer, just take the dust cover off and push the hinge pin out, take the stock off, put the other stock back on and then push the pin back in.
sidecarnutz
01-26-11, 12:50
When it comes to swapping triangle stocks...
There are two sizes of hinge pin in use. 4.5mm for Bulgarian and 5.5mm for Russian. So be sure to get the poly butt stock with the correct size hinge pin for your rear trunnion.
I find the steel triangle stock very comfortable. Very light too. Just wrap it in paracord and it's comfortable.
Here's the ones I built.
Black one has a Bulgy triangle folder. The plumb one is the DPH triangle folder.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/rgmaund/Kyber%20Pass/2010Blizzard031.jpg
They both got paracord wrapped. That steel does get hot & cold with the weather.
That Bulgarian would be a no-go for me. Non chromed US commercial barrel, unknown US receiver.
AMEN TO THAT!
I made the semi-mistake of ordering a Century Bulgarian AK-74. Keyholed like crazy - around 8 foot groups (patterns?) @ 100 yards, almost no rifling in the soft metal US barrel. Receiver is good, as is the rest of the gun though. I say semi-mistake because I was able to swap out the crap barrel with a Bulgarian chrome-lined one.
Now, it'll hit what I aim at, I like it, and it'll never leave my collection. (I have a number of pics documenting it, in case you guys are interested.)
If I wasn't fortunate enough to have access to the tools and equipment that I needed, I'd have been SOL.
What I learned - I'll never buy another AK of any type unless it has its original barrel.
CumbiaDude
01-27-11, 20:52
There's a reason why the Russians/Bulgarians went with a synthetic as soon as they were able to.
The bright side is that it's very easy to swap between the steel and the polymer, just take the dust cover off and push the hinge pin out, take the stock off, put the other stock back on and then push the pin back in.Sidecarnutz already mentioned that it's not that simple to switch stocks, but also, I don't believe the Bulgarians ever switched to a polymer stock (at least, not a polymer folding stock). Only the Russians did that, on the AK-100s.
It actually is simple, if you have the 4.5mm pin, as comes on the Arsenal Bulgarian made SLR-106/107's, or the Russian SGL-31.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16845&cat=283&page=3
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=283&page=3
sidecarnutz
01-28-11, 16:52
Templar's right.
KVAR makes the poly 4.5mm pin poly butt stocks. Sometimes they sell the Russian 5.5mm models too.
With either, it IS as simple as knocking out the pin, swap the new butt stock in and press the pin back in. A wire brad or small punch and a little hammer will tap the pin out for you and then back in works just fine.
I've been wondering about buying a Bulgy 4.5mm pinned poly butt stock just to try one. That, since the swap IS so easy. But I can't picture it being as light weight as the sheet metal triangle stock is.
I've been thinking of making a little pouch to fit inside the triangle folder. That would be a cool accessory.
Thanks for all the information in this thread!
All I knew about AK's before reading it really were that some used milled receivers and some used stamped. I have been interested in buying a quality AK-47 and sending it off to Rifle Dynamics to have them do their business to it, but didn't know how to get the first bit. I'm now waiting on an Arsenal with a milled receiver, but it's back ordered. Hopefully soon!
CumbiaDude
01-29-11, 00:01
Templar's right.
KVAR makes the poly 4.5mm pin poly butt stocks. Sometimes they sell the Russian 5.5mm models too.
It actually is simple, if you have the 4.5mm pin, as comes on the Arsenal Bulgarian made SLR-106/107's, or the Russian SGL-31.
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16845&cat=283&page=3
http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=16844&cat=283&page=3The stock Templar just linked to is a US-made, modified copy of the Russian AK-100 series stock. Sure, you can modify anything to fit anything, or make a specialty version of whatever you want. The way I understood his previous post (the one I quoted in my previous post) was that you can take the modern AK-100 polymer stock and swap it with a military triangle folder back and forth at will. This is simply untrue. Both the pins and angles are different and must be modified to work. The SLR-31 uses the modern Russian AK-100 stock, and has a 5.5 mm pin, not a 4.5 mm pin. You would need to buy a rarer 5.5 mm triangle folder, or get a 4.5 mm triangle folder and add some bushings to make it work in your 5.5 mm trunnion (and would still be left with the angles being different). I have a 5.5 mm/4° trunnion and stock, and I also have a 4.5 mm/6° trunnion and stock. I can put the triangle folder on the 5.5 mm/4° trunnion, and it flops around and the lock doesn't line up, it's at the very edge of where it's supposed to catch. I would need to modify it to work or buy a modified (US-made) design.
You should make it clear that they do NOT work unless you buy a modified specialty design.
I'm new to the board, and I don't have any SLRs (planning on a BCM build for later this year).
I recently heard about the Bulgarian kit "Vectors."
Do Vector guns have the blessing of M4C AK connoisseurs?
I am a fan of both the AR and the AK, and I want to have one of each eventually.
I'm new to the board, and I don't have any SLRs (planning on a BCM build for later this year).
I recently heard about the Bulgarian kit "Vectors."
Do Vector guns have the blessing of M4C AK connoisseurs?
I am a fan of both the AR and the AK, and I want to have one of each eventually.
Depends....Vector has been a decent AK in the past, bear in mind it will be built with a used parts kit, and possibly a non chrome lined US barrel.
Have a link?
Templar, I wasn't thinking of anything specific. I was just wondering about Vector in general.
Truth be told, later after posting this, I decided that I would rather build (with some guidance) my first AK. Getting a Nodak Spud stripped receiver seems to me like a no nonsense thing to do.
Unless I am wrong. (I signed up for this board to learn, after all).
Honestly, I'd highly recommend a good factory gun for a first or second AK, and then once you get to know your way around one, and what one is supposed to look like/run like, then maybe a build.
I'll be honest with you though, my opinion of the majority of home built AK's that I've seen over the past decade or so is not a very good one. There are a few guys who really know what they're doing and can build something really good, and then you have all the rest.
Also bear in mind that the cost of a good quality kit with an original chrome lined military barrel is getting prohibitively expensive.
The fewer US made parts, particularly the guts of the rifle, i.e. the barrel, receiver, bolt and FCG, the better.
Templar's words are golden.
sidecarnutz
02-05-11, 22:34
Templar's right. Many home builders out there are screwing them together or using htings like flux core MIG welders and worse.
I'm a home builder. I feel I did mine very well. The ones I wasn't quite happy with, I went back and rebuilt until they were as good as I could do it.
It's not like wrenching together an AR. You need to have metal working skills. You'll need a drill press, hydraulic press and specialized rivet setting tools as well as fixtures to hold things as you press the barrel pin as well as the barrel itself in and out. The parts kits can be excellent and still have tolerance stacking issues that require things to be hand fitted. Then you'll have to finish it. Do you have access to a blast booth? Do you do your own parkerizing or moly resin work?
And you'll need 922r compliance parts to build into it. No more than ten foriegn parts allowed in it.
If you slap one together with screws and then Krylon it, you won't be happy with the results.
Unless you have these skills and tools available, you're better off with a professionally built rifle. This isn't stuff people can just talk you completely through on the internet. I coached my bro in law and nephew through their own builds in my work shop. That was after I spent a couple years building my own collection. Took a few days work. They bought new NDS receivers and they had good hand tool skills already. I just talked them through it one thing at a time and we had three days of quality time out in the man cave. Drove my sister nuts with it too! That made it more fun. :D A project like this is a time sponge to do well. Unless you can see all that time in a project as recreation, you're better off just buying a nice AK.
When I got started building my collection I was already a retired steam plant tech, machinist and welder. And I have a well equipped home shop. For me it was do-able.
I got my own kits when they were $100 to $175 each. So I could afford to get thecompliance parts, NDS receivers, rivet tools and built my own fixtures.... Now a days with a really excellent kits with original barrel fetching $300 to $500, the economics of it are gone.
I just saw one of the Century AKMS under-folders today on my dealers rack.
Thought it was just another WASR-style underfolder at first. But after picking it up... goodness gracious the sights are straight, the finish is sorta good, actual dimples instead of welded in shims, action was smooth, selector moved without a sound... It appeared to be a good rifle.
None of the numbers matched.
Price was $525.
Is Century doing this one right? Or is the barrel suspect?
lloydkristmas
02-06-11, 00:21
At this point in time theres really no practical purpose to building your own AK unless you are really experienced or just want to say you did it.
The availability of top quality factory rifles like the Arsenal SGL and SLR series at very reasonable prices makes it almost silly to bother with the other options.
I should have mentioned that if I actually did make a build, that I would seek assistance from someone experienced.
I wouldn't trust myself to do it on my own, I can tell you that much.
I just saw one of the Century AKMS under-folders today on my dealers rack.
Thought it was just another WASR-style underfolder at first. But after picking it up... goodness gracious the sights are straight, the finish is sorta good, actual dimples instead of welded in shims, action was smooth, selector moved without a sound... It appeared to be a good rifle.
None of the numbers matched.
Price was $525.
Is Century doing this one right? Or is the barrel suspect?
It most likey has a US made barrel by Green Mountain.
Non chrome lined, and I've seen some of the GM barrels that have had tight chambers, which contributed to stuck cases/failure to extract with Russian ammo.
Without seeing it in person though, couldn't tell you.
It most likey has a US made barrel by Green Mountain.
Was afraid of that...
I'm just going to go the RD, RJ, or MK route. In my search for a folder.
I've been spoiled, AR wise, by the likes of BCM, and LMT. Where you can just order upper tier equipment and it's delivered to your door by the end of the week... Getting into the AK game, and being satisfied with what you have, appears like it's going to take a little more effort.
Thanks Templar.
Was afraid of that...
I'm just going to go the RD, RJ, or MK route. In my search for a folder.
I've been spoiled, AR wise, by the likes of BCM, and LMT. Where you can just order upper tier equipment and it's delivered to your door by the end of the week... Getting into the AK game, and being satisfied with what you have, appears like it's going to take a little more effort.
Thanks Templar.
Plug and play folder....with a cold hammer forged chrome lined barrel, all new parts, with a folding stock far superior to an underfolder.
SLR-107F (http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17040&cat=357&bestseller=Y)
SLR-107F (http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17040&cat=357&bestseller=Y)
NOW you're talking!
Apparently some tax return will have to head in that direction.
Thanks. :thank_you2:
Machurtado
02-06-11, 17:15
Ok Templar how about the interarms that atlantic is selling what do you think about those?
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct948.aspx
Thanks
My first choice for a semi would be the Steyr imported Maadi from Egypt.
I think they are one of the most beautiful Classic style looking AK47 type rifles made. Wish they would be imported again at old prices.
TacticalTaco
02-12-11, 10:08
I look for performance over gimmicks.
Arsenal uses Saigas, which means the best barrel out there. But aside from that they offer nothing else except some overrated hand guards.
Koryanovich is my fav, good finish, trigger, nickel plated bolt carrier.
I look for performance over gimmicks.
Arsenal uses Saigas, which means the best barrel out there. But aside from that they offer nothing else except some overrated hand guards.
Koryanovich is my fav, good finish, trigger, nickel plated bolt carrier.
Only the SGL models are based on Saigas.
I know nothing of Koryanovich Arms, but I would assume that their rifles are built from parts kits.
Arsenal uses brand-new parts.
That said, I think Arsenal could use a more durable finish, get the sights straight, and not have rude "customer service"; but I still think they're worth it.
Gimmicks, to me, mean a nickel-plated bolt carrier on an AK. :D
TacticalTaco
02-13-11, 19:03
Only the SGL models are based on Saigas.
I know nothing of Koryanovich Arms, but I would assume that their rifles are built from parts kits.
Arsenal uses brand-new parts.
That said, I think Arsenal could use a more durable finish, get the sights straight, and not have rude "customer service"; but I still think they're worth it.
Gimmicks, to me, mean a nickel-plated bolt carrier on an AK. :D
Right I said that wrong lol. I'm not into the 47, only the 74, so SGL is all I really look at. I had one, great gun, very accurate and shot great, just for the money....meh......could be much nicer for 800 bucks ya know?
After a brief search of this forum, I could find only limited postings about Inter Ordnance brand AKs. I would be interested in what anybody (particularly Templar) has to say about these. Looking mostly at the Econ Sporter model. Write-ups look good, but would like to know more from a user. Thanks for any feedback.
I ordered are Arsenal SGL 21-71 January 18th from K-Var, I called K-Var today about it, they forwarded me to Arsenal.
I'll let you know how it goes.
The Safety Lever rubs against the dust cover and sticks because the detent wasn't milled out all the way.
I don't know if I'd recommend Arsenal to anyone at this point. But my Father's is working as it should. He ordered his about a week after me.
lloydkristmas
02-14-11, 11:02
After a brief search of this forum, I could find only limited postings about Inter Ordnance brand AKs. I would be interested in what anybody (particularly Templar) has to say about these. Looking mostly at the Econ Sporter model. Write-ups look good, but would like to know more from a user. Thanks for any feedback.
I'd pass on IO, there are better AK's to be had for not much more money.
alvincullumyork
02-14-11, 23:05
I'd pass on IO, there are better AK's to be had for not much more money.
Could you expand on this, what would you recommend at a similar price point, why IO isn't as good, etc.?
I picked one up, the econ sporter, barely used for 450 about a year ago. I thought that the furniture felt a little cheap and flimsy but I did like the shape of the stock. The forearm plastic didn't have a heat shield as well. Fit and finish was better than the wasr 10s I looked at but that isn't saying much. I only got to take it out once so I can't say anything about reliability and I didn't get to shoot past 25 yards so no comment on accuracy. The magazine that came with it was trash. I looked high and low for good or bad info for this gun and couldn't really find any. I ended up selling it for 450 to fund my m&p but I am still curious about the rifle.
This was the only ak I have ever owned and I am far from an expert. Just some humble observations.
Now that I have some money again I think I am going to try out an Interarms IAC AK 74 from Atlantic unless good information is presented against it.
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct949.aspx
Thanks in advance
The Inter Ordnance guns I've seen look like they were put together by a blind man. The base, core parts (receiver, barrel) were unimpressive, build quality was bad.
I'd much rather have a WASR/10 that either I had looked over myself or bought one sight unseen from Henderson Defense through their "Certified" program.
The same goes for Interarms, although not as bad. This isn't Sam Cumming's Interarms from 30 years ago in Alexandria, VA. They're using Nodak Spud receivers, which are decent, but the build quality I've seen hasn't been all that great.
The Inter Ordnance guns I've seen look like they were put together by a blind man. The base, core parts (receiver, barrel) were unimpressive, build quality was bad.
I'd much rather have a WASR/10 that either I had looked over myself or bought one sight unseen from Henderson Defense through their "Certified" program.
The same goes for Interarms, although not as bad. This isn't Sam Cumming's Interarms from 30 years ago in Alexandria, VA. They're using Nodak Spud receivers, which are decent, but the build quality I've seen hasn't been all that great.
Good info, gentlemen, thanks for the replies/help...
alvincullumyork
02-15-11, 13:10
Templar
I have looked at the Henderson "certified" century ak 74 gun and the only thing that really bothers me is the lack of chrome lined barrel. I plan on shooting the cheapest ammo I can find, corrosive, and so i figured chrome lined was a necessity. Is it really needed?
Templar
I have looked at the Henderson "certified" century ak 74 gun and the only thing that really bothers me is the lack of chrome lined barrel. I plan on shooting the cheapest ammo I can find, corrosive, and so i figured chrome lined was a necessity. Is it really needed?
I hadn't looked on Henderson's site in a while. I'm referring specifically to the Romanian WASR series which uses an original Romanian chrome lined barrel. I didn't know they were certifying the Century domestic builds with US barrels.
YES, chrome lining is a big deal. Especially shooting corrosive ammo.
Might want to read this thread that a member here just posted about the Century AK-74's.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=74120
Machurtado
02-15-11, 16:45
I too looked at henderson defense's website and just found "certified" centurys so I'm assuming you would rather go with the interarms?
When looking at AK's to verify if the barrel is original or US made, are there visible details an untrained eye can pick up on? I read that some US barrels dont have relief cuts, chamber polishing, etc.. is there a source for images of 1 vs the other?
Thanks for any info. Im concluding its just better to pay the extra and buy an Arsenal that states the details rather than trying to find a "deal."
Anybody know anything about Allied Armament?
This one specifically, http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=238582.
tvfreakarms
03-10-11, 14:43
What are you thoughts on this russian RAK ak. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct655.aspx
I'm trying to look for an original look of the ak47. Not trying to spend an arm and a leg but i am willing to spend a little more for a quality ak47. Also, it will need to be cali compliant for me (16inch barrel and bullet button):D
Anybody know anything about Allied Armament?
This one specifically, http://www.sturmgewehr.com/webBBS/semi4sale.cgi?read=238582.
From what I remember they were ok builds, but there's a reason why they're showing a picture with the safety off. The NDS-3 is the economy receiver and frequently there will be a gap between the safety lever and the rim of the dustcover when the safety is in the on position. Shouldn't effect functioning, but it's annoying. Why they didn't just spend a little more money to do it right and use one of the NDS premium receivers, I don't understand.
What are you thoughts on this russian RAK ak. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct655.aspx
I'm trying to look for an original look of the ak47. Not trying to spend an arm and a leg but i am willing to spend a little more for a quality ak47. Also, it will need to be cali compliant for me (16inch barrel and bullet button):D
If you can get past that it's a SAIGA and will have the AK-74 90* gas block vs. the 45* gas block of an AKM, I'd say fine.
No country ever nickeled their bolt carriers either.
It won't look like an AKM to anyone who's familiar with AK's. If you'd be happy with it, rock on.
I'd personally suggest hitting the Easy button and just get one of the Cali compliant Arsenal SGL's. (and consider moving to a free state)
When looking at AK's to verify if the barrel is original or US made, are there visible details an untrained eye can pick up on? I read that some US barrels dont have relief cuts, chamber polishing, etc.. is there a source for images of 1 vs the other?
Thanks for any info. Im concluding its just better to pay the extra and buy an Arsenal that states the details rather than trying to find a "deal."
If you have an opportunity to field strip the rifle, take the gas tube off and look down onto the barrel and you'll see all kinds of proof and arsenal marks. Every foreign AK barrel is going to have something like that.
CumbiaDude
03-10-11, 21:53
I'd personally suggest hitting the Easy button and just get one of the Cali compliant Arsenal SGL's. (and consider moving to a free state)Yeah, that'll fix it. Running from problems is super effective.
:rolleyes:
I don't know, jumping off a sinking ship is probably a good idea.
Thanks Templar, I'll just pick up a SGL.
tvfreakarms
03-11-11, 22:28
Oh i see. Well i guess i won't go with that then. I don't know to much about ak's but what do you guys suggests?
I want something that is close to the look of the original ak47. A good, decent build.
By the way the g2 fire control what is that about?
I really don't think i'm going to move just to buy more guns.
From what I remember they were ok builds, but there's a reason why they're showing a picture with the safety off. The NDS-3 is the economy receiver and frequently there will be a gap between the safety lever and the rim of the dustcover when the safety is in the on position. Shouldn't effect functioning, but it's annoying. Why they didn't just spend a little more money to do it right and use one of the NDS premium receivers, I don't understand.
If you can get past that it's a SAIGA and will have the AK-74 90* gas block vs. the 45* gas block of an AKM, I'd say fine.
No country ever nickeled their bolt carriers either.
It won't look like an AKM to anyone who's familiar with AK's. If you'd be happy with it, rock on.
I'd personally suggest hitting the Easy button and just get one of the Cali compliant Arsenal SGL's. (and consider moving to a free state)
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 00:20
90* vs 45* gas block? Is the 45 better?
I would prefer to buy an ak that resembles close to the AKM.
Thinking of buying it from Atlantic firearms and maybe getting an arsenal brand. I've read some good reviews, but i also read that sometimes they come with canted sights. But i assume atlantic firearms would check those before shipping them out.
From what I remember they were ok builds, but there's a reason why they're showing a picture with the safety off. The NDS-3 is the economy receiver and frequently there will be a gap between the safety lever and the rim of the dustcover when the safety is in the on position. Shouldn't effect functioning, but it's annoying. Why they didn't just spend a little more money to do it right and use one of the NDS premium receivers, I don't understand.
If you can get past that it's a SAIGA and will have the AK-74 90* gas block vs. the 45* gas block of an AKM, I'd say fine.
No country ever nickeled their bolt carriers either.
It won't look like an AKM to anyone who's familiar with AK's. If you'd be happy with it, rock on.
I'd personally suggest hitting the Easy button and just get one of the Cali compliant Arsenal SGL's. (and consider moving to a free state)
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 00:23
What do you guys think of this one?
California Legal Arsenal AK47 23-61 (http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct959.aspx)
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 00:34
LOL!
I like guns and enjoy shooting them but i don't think i would just move because of some restrictions on certain weapons i can't buy so easily compared to free states. It sucks but it's not the end of the world. Plus i need to fight and try to keep our damn policy makers of trying to slowly ban military style weapons :agree:
Yeah, that'll fix it. Running from problems is super effective.
:rolleyes:
jumpthestack
03-12-11, 01:27
For Californians who want a Arsenal SGL21 or SGL31, check out Riflegear. http://www.riflegear.com/p-926-arsenal-sgl21-saiga-762x39-rifle.aspx
http://www.riflegear.com/p-964-arsenal-sgl31-saiga-545x39-rifle.aspx
The official CA legal Arsenal rifles come with their own weird mag release that requires a special key to use. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDGnTFP9VqI ) The Riflegear one comes with a bullet button that fits over the standard mag release and lets you use any thin prying tool as a lever to release the mag, and is easily removable if you go featureless. http://www.riflegear.com/p-554-ak47-bullet-button.aspx
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 05:35
WOW didn't know it had it's own proprietary mag release.
Do you know if the bullet button can be taken off and converted back to it's original mag release form (if i were to go to say neveda)? Or does it need to be sent back or is it a pain in the ass to have it converted back?
Although riflegear is more expensive.
What is the difference between the link i had sgl 23 vs the 21? Is it the mag release?
Thanks for the heads up.
For Californians who want a Arsenal SGL21 or SGL31, check out Riflegear. http://www.riflegear.com/p-926-arsenal-sgl21-saiga-762x39-rifle.aspx
http://www.riflegear.com/p-964-arsenal-sgl31-saiga-545x39-rifle.aspx
The official CA legal Arsenal rifles come with their own weird mag release that requires a special key to use. (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDGnTFP9VqI ) The Riflegear one comes with a bullet button that fits over the standard mag release and lets you use any thin prying tool as a lever to release the mag, and is easily removable if you go featureless. http://www.riflegear.com/p-554-ak47-bullet-button.aspx
CumbiaDude
03-12-11, 14:30
Plus i need to fight and try to keep our damn policy makers of trying to slowly ban military style weapons :agree:There ya go, man. This is exactly what the ban-states (and cities, like Chicago) need.
As for Arsenal's proprietary mag release, I don't know if it can be taken off. It looks like you could do it. May need to replace the latch itself, not sure, but that's hardly a big deal, compared to other things people do.
In the video linked to by jumpthestack, he mentions a coupon to have Arsenal remove it for free if California law ever changes. That might work if you move out of state (or not, not sure). Something to think about. :)
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 15:58
It does have it's proprietary bullet button. Which sucks cause like that guy in that video states, you have to send it back. I emailed riflegear and he said that you can covert their bullet button back to it's original form if i were to go out of cali.
If i were to go with the sgl 21 ak47, can it be changed to where it would look like more of the original AKM? I'm assuming the buttstock, the pistal grip and the handguard can be changed, but is it easy to do?
I also noticed that the sgl 21 has a funky looking trigger system with the wires and what not. That seems it looks like a pain if i were to clean the rifle. I've read that tapco sells a trigger plate that would replace the wire system. Is that correct or is it for something else. If it does replace the wire system how easy can it be done?
Also, i would probably change the trigger cause i've read that the tapco's g2 fire control is way better than the stock.
tvfreakarms
03-12-11, 16:04
Imagine if everybody that wanted the cool guns and a lot of them left cali. Cali would get exactly what the law makers want, ban most if not all military style weapons and more pistols.
Running is not the answer. Plus the weather is good depending where you live and we got some cool beaches to. Even though the water is dirty like hell.
Back to AK talk. I own a russian sks so i figured i would like an AK. The ammo is cheap for the most part, i'm sure it's fun to shot and i guess a cool factor of owning one.
There ya go, man. This is exactly what the ban-states (and cities, like Chicago) need.
AK's use that "funky looking wire system". It's not funky, that's how it's supposed to be.
If you truly want an AKM style rifle, you're going to need a 45* gas block, and a 14/1mm threaded muzzle with either a slant brake or a muzzle nut on it.
Again, easy button would be a "certified" WASR 10/63 from Henderson, although it won't have the magazine dimples.
Otherwise, hunt down a Romanian parts kit, get a Nodak NDS-1 receiver, and pay a smith who knows what the hell he's doing to build it for you into a Kali legal configuration.
The Arsenal SGL and SLR series of weapons are the more modern Kalashnikovs, so they have a 90* gas block and a 24mm/1 RH threaded front sight assembly.
tvfreakarms
03-16-11, 07:56
I'm kind of torn between the arsenal and vector. I like the look of vector because it looks like more of the traditional ak. Also, vector has a 5yr warranty. What type of warranty does arsenal has?
Between the 2 brands (vector and arsenal) which one is better or which one has a better reputation when it comes to quality, build and reliability?
So far i hear arsenal is good but i haven't heard much about vector.
Reading through the AK discussions on the TOS will give you some info that will help you in your decision. Apparently, Vector now, isnt the same as Vector a couple years ago. Some have been reporting Century grade issues with the builds. I would absolutely order it from Atlantic, if I was going to order a Vector. My Vote: go with the Arsenal and change out the furniture if you prefer a more traditional look.
tvfreakarms
03-17-11, 13:12
Thanks for the heads up. As of right now i'm made up my mind and looks like i'll go with the arsenal.
I was at henderson defense's website. They have the sgl 21-61 and 71. It seems the 2 only differences between the 2 is that the 71 version has the NATO length buttstock and it's $6 dollars more than the 61 version. And the 61 has a WARSAW length buttstock.
Any ideas on which one to get? Is the WARSAW length buttstock more common?
"Warsaw" length is standard. Think of it as having the same LOP as the M16A1. The "NATO" is about 1 1/2" longer stock, more like a M16A2 stock.
Go with the standard "Warsaw Pact" length.
tvfreakarms
03-17-11, 13:27
Thanks.
I'm going to go ask henderson defense, but do you guys know if they give discounts to members that are on certain forums?
Thanks.
I'm going to go ask henderson defense, but do you guys know if they give discounts to members that are on certain forums?
Have no idea.
I just want to quickly mention that the easiest thing to do for having a PRK legal AK is either to go "featureless" or use the Solar Tactical Maglock.
To make an AK featureless, make sure that it doesn't have any "evil" features, and slip on one of these over the PG. http://www.solartactical.com/AK47-STANDARD-KYDEX-SLIP-ON-GRIP-325.htm
They don't feel that bad in the hand, and they allow you to keep using the mag release without any drama. This is what I would do if I had an AK.
And don't forget about this guide to determine whether your rifle is legal.
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
tvfreakarms
03-18-11, 04:36
Just curious for my own knowledge, why go with the standard instead of the Nato length?:cool:
"Warsaw" length is standard. Think of it as having the same LOP as the M16A1. The "NATO" is about 1 1/2" longer stock, more like a M16A2 stock.
Go with the standard "Warsaw Pact" length.
Just curious for my own knowledge, why go with the standard instead of the Nato length?:cool:
Thought I just explained it.
If you like the LOP of the M16A2, go with the NATO. For most users, it's too long.
Are Saiga conversions still considered workable? I really like the Saiga lower handguard and if I could get something like this (http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Saiga-7-62-Carbine-50p333.htm) and get the stock converted and an Ultimak top rail on the gas tube I'd be pretty happy. Not sure if that's economically viable though.
Are Saiga conversions still considered workable? I really like the Saiga lower handguard and if I could get something like this (http://www.hendersondefense.com/store/pc/Saiga-7-62-Carbine-50p333.htm) and get the stock converted and an Ultimak top rail on the gas tube I'd be pretty happy. Not sure if that's economically viable though.
Sure. The guts of the SAIGA, the barrel and receiver, are definitely good to go.
The quality of the conversion is what to look at.
Any ballpark on what an ass-end conversion (stock & pistol grip) would cost? Any idea if there's an Ultimak top rail that will work with the stock Saiga Handguard?
Any ballpark on what an ass-end conversion (stock & pistol grip) would cost? Any idea if there's an Ultimak top rail that will work with the stock Saiga Handguard?
Maybe $150~$200 or so.....I'd start hitting up the smiths and getting estimates.
I don't know how well the SAIGA handguard is going to deal with heat though, might be something to keep in mind. I don't think they have heat shields in there.
I don't know if a standard Ultimak would work with the SAIGA handguard....you might need to do some trimming on the handguard.
CumbiaDude
03-18-11, 16:40
I don't know how well the SAIGA handguard is going to deal with heat though, might be something to keep in mind. I don't think they have heat shields in there.Big +1 to this. The standard Saiga handguard has no heat shield and no metal reinforcements. For the past 3 decades or more any military polymer stock (starting with Russian plum all the way to this very day) will have a heat shield and a metal piece molded into the front where the handguard is held by the handguard retainer.
The standard Saiga handguard is all polymer. I fear it would melt under hard use. This is not a picture of a Saiga handguard, but I fear the results would be the same:
http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad338/CumbiaDude/Album/th_Melted.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/albums/ad338/CumbiaDude/Album/?action=view¤t=Melted.jpg)http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad338/CumbiaDude/Album/th_Melted2.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/albums/ad338/CumbiaDude/Album/?action=view¤t=Melted2.jpg)
Compare with Russian handguards, which have metal reinforcements:
http://www.rusmilitary.com/images/ak74m_handguards.jpg
I don't know if a standard Ultimak would work with the SAIGA handguard....you might need to do some trimming on the handguard.You do need to do some trimming, but it's not bad. I saw a guy do something similar. With a hacksaw or Dremel you can do it without much issue.
tvfreakarms
03-21-11, 04:26
Oops! Yes you did. Thank you.
Thought I just explained it.
If you like the LOP of the M16A2, go with the NATO. For most users, it's too long.
I have owned one cheap AK one of the Romanian $350 guns and never shot it....sold it since I was pretty turned off by the quality etc but I guess you can't expect much from a cheap rifle.
I am an AR guy and tend to run only LMT, Colt and Noveske so I don't want junk but would say around $1000 for an AK would be a good start for a budget.
I got fired up about buying one after watching LAV do a good review of the AK...I want one that will have a top rail for mounting an Aimpoint and flashlight, folding stock would be nice, extended safety lever etc. I don't mind adding some of the extras in the future as I can but I want one that is of good quality etc. Looking for one chambered in 7.62x39. What brands should I be looking at and where is a good dealer to purchase from?
I have read a lot on here in the past but most seems to be a little dated, any direction would be great!
David
There are a few threads currently running, if you'd take a look through here.
The easiest, shortest answer is to get one of the Arsenal Inc. SLR-106 or 107 series, depending on if you want a 5.56x45mm or a 7.62x39mm, with a folding stock; or one of the Arsenal Inc. SGL series.
Both are analogs to a Colt 6920. Made by the same people who make them for their militaries, out of military spec parts, in the same factory.
There are a few threads currently running, if you'd take a look through here.
The easiest, shortest answer is to get one of the Arsenal Inc. SLR-106 or 107 series, depending on if you want a 5.56x45mm or a 7.62x39mm, with a folding stock; or one of the Arsenal Inc. SGL series.
Both are analogs to a Colt 6920. Made by the same people who make them for their militaries, out of military spec parts, in the same factory.
Excellent that is the direction I was looking for....any reason to purchase one caliber over another? Thought 7.62x39 for cheap ammo and magazine availability...your thoughts? Also is there a high quality magazine I should be buying?
Take some time to read through some of the stuck threads, most of the answers you're looking for are there....including caliber choices, magazines, modifications, etc.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30850
I own Arsenal examples of both main chamberings, your 7.62x39 is more available in this country but the 5.45x39 is cheaper right now. In 5.45x39 you have a generally more accurate platform but you are also limited to surplus ammo at this time. Right now the cream of the crop for AKs are the various Arsenal Inc. offerings or else some of the true pre ban weapons out there(generally above your price range). These are not ARs, most magazines work well although people do have their preferences. I've yet to have a magazine failure so I cant really comment one way or the other.
Thanks guys...seems Arsenal has exactly what I am looking for with the forward rail and folding stock. Price point is very good as well....issue is who stocks them? I looked at gunbroker and not many out there, local dealer only has the shotgun....anyone know of an online dealer who is stocking them and has fair to good prices?
Pathfinder Ops
03-29-11, 13:49
I have an AT-47 which has a milled receiver (I don't know if that's good or bad) and the only observation I can make thus far is; the milled receiver seems tighter than the stamped ones I have handled and shot.
I can say that it shoots/ handles as good as the Polytech I had and sold to a buddy in a moment of financial weakness.
I'm far from an expert on the differing AK's that are out there but this was well under $1k and I am very happy with the performance I have gotten.
I have no problems out to 100yds (essentially the most I was looking for distance wise anyway). I bought it, cleaned it, lubed it with Mobile 1 and I've put about 2K rds through it with no failures.
It's an AK and it is what it is. Reliable, durable (so far) and priced where I was willing to go.
Not sure if this helps, it's just my 2 cents worth.
I guess I had the wrong assumptions of the SGL series.
Are those still worth looking into?
I guess I had the wrong assumptions of the SGL series.
Are those still worth looking into?
Yes they are.
Arsenal as noted is the best of the Production guns available. Then the semi custom stuff like KrebsCustom.com Tromix and Red Jacket bubble up to to the top
For the $$$ a hand picked and thoroughly gone over WASR-10 is a good AK. Ugly but should go bang everytime and deliver accuracy within acceptable limits when fed quality ammo.
I have owned one cheap AK one of the Romanian $350 guns and never shot it....sold it since I was pretty turned off by the quality etc but I guess you can't expect much from a cheap rifle.
I am an AR guy and tend to run only LMT, Colt and Noveske so I don't want junk but would say around $1000 for an AK would be a good start for a budget.
I got fired up about buying one after watching LAV do a good review of the AK...I want one that will have a top rail for mounting an Aimpoint and flashlight, folding stock would be nice, extended safety lever etc. I don't mind adding some of the extras in the future as I can but I want one that is of good quality etc. Looking for one chambered in 7.62x39. What brands should I be looking at and where is a good dealer to purchase from?
I have read a lot on here in the past but most seems to be a little dated, any direction would be great!
David
ARSENAL SGL,never look back.
I have an SGL21 on the way and I'm pretty excited about it. I screwed around in the past buying 'quantity' over 'quality', and having sold three of my 7.62x39 guns in the past month I wanted something that I really felt I could trust for a long time to come.
Just_Plain_T.
04-02-11, 19:36
Already been covered, but if buying a factory rifle, Arsenal AKs are the way to go.
I own two AKs, both Arsenals. One of them has been to Rifle Dynamics for Jim's magic. Great rifles.
If you can find an SLR you can afford instead of the SGL, I'd recommend it for the 100-series folding stock. Locks up very well, and feels as comfortable as a solid stock when unfolded.
I just have to pop back in here and say...I love my new SGL21. I got to shoot a few rounds through it today and it is everything I expected. Five rounds to zero at 25 yds, then we were nailing 8x8 steel at 100 yards with ease. The build quality on this gun is just excellent, and it shoots excellent too. Can't wait to put more rounds downrange with this one.
I have one complaint though...I fear that shooting my other AK's just isn't going to be the same any more. I'm glad I was able to read the recommendations of some of you here, because that's what steered me to this one.
Rebel Rifle Ordnance
04-11-11, 19:59
I own two Norinco MAK90's and two WSAR's. The Norinco's stamped metal is a little thicker than the WSAR but both types work fine for what they are. The MAK has a better fit and finish. They're not precision equipment like a quality AR but they go bang for me every time. If I had it to do over, would have probably bought Arsenal made AK's but I suppose hind sight is always 20/20. The only complaint I've had with the WSAR's is that they are not out of the box accurate. I've had to adjust front sights and I have a lot of trouble seeing those tiny AK sights especially in certain light conditions. The WSARS are kind of like a tough red neck who drinks a lot of beer and brawls every chance he gets. Very crude and socially unacceptable but will back you up in a jam every time.
I haven't seen a post about it yet - but has anyone bought one of the newer Arsenal SGL-31s? I have yet to hear any feedback on those as compared to the other SGLs... Maybe because people think they are asking too much for a 5.45 gun?
Spooky
I have an SGL-31. It's way ahead of the other 74 clones on the market. Very accurate and well built. It's worth the extra money. That's one good thing about AKs, even the top of the line ones are cheaper than other military type weapons...Arsenal in Plum, other one is a Bulgarian Arsenal AKS-74
http://i54.tinypic.com/2dqklj9.jpg
I haven't seen a post about it yet - but has anyone bought one of the newer Arsenal SGL-31s? I have yet to hear any feedback on those as compared to the other SGLs... Maybe because people think they are asking too much for a 5.45 gun?
Spooky
The Izmash SGL-31 is the AK analog to a Colt 6920. Built by the same people that supply the Russian military with their AK-74M's, with the same cold hammer forged hard chrome lined barrels, receivers, etc.
Definitely good to go.
The Izmash SGL-31 is the AK analog to a Colt 6920. Built by the same people that supply the Russian military with their AK-74M's, with the same cold hammer forged hard chrome lined barrels, receivers, etc.
Definitely good to go.
I realize who makes it but I haven't heard many first hand reviews of it yet... You know where assuming gets us...
Does anyone know if the -94/-84 models are using Russian or Bulgarian rear trunnions? K-Var states Russian polymer stock for the -94 and doesn't state the nationality of the metal stock on the -84. I would actually prefer the Bulgarian pattern for the availability of cheaper but functional replacement stocks...
Spooky
All the SGL-31's I've seen have been good to go.
I haven't gotten to play with any /84's or /94's yet, so I can't comment on the Russian/Bulgarian trunnions.
You might want to give them a call.
I realize who makes it but I haven't heard many first hand reviews of it yet... You know where assuming gets us...
Does anyone know if the -94/-84 models are using Russian or Bulgarian rear trunnions? K-Var states Russian polymer stock for the -94 and doesn't state the nationality of the metal stock on the -84. I would actually prefer the Bulgarian pattern for the availability of cheaper but functional replacement stocks...
Spooky Here is a (don't laugh) Nutnfancy Shot Show 2011 arsenal inc booth review.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi-0XvfbQe4
Jump to the 9min part it sound's like the polymer is russian, and the metal stock may be made by them. Hope this helped a little!
I realize who makes it but I haven't heard many first hand reviews of it yet... You know where assuming gets us...
Does anyone know if the -94/-84 models are using Russian or Bulgarian rear trunnions? K-Var states Russian polymer stock for the -94 and doesn't state the nationality of the metal stock on the -84. I would actually prefer the Bulgarian pattern for the availability of cheaper but functional replacement stocks...
Spooky
The only thing that scares me about the sidefolders is that I have been told they don't have the lower receiver reinforcement so I am not sure how strong they are. If the Russians go through the expense of putting it on the AK74M then it must be worth something.
There are far, far, far more AK's with stamped receivers out there without the "reinforcement' than there are with.
It's an absolute total non issue.
Nightvisionary
04-14-11, 08:29
I had one of the Early romanian made SAR-1's. The quality was excellent and is very close to an original Soviet AKM. I have seen later ones that had canted front sight bases and looked like crap.
The stock on my SGL31-94 is marked Izhmash, it looks like a 5.5mm pin to me. I've had some health issues so it's still unfired. I'm so far pleased with what I see.
I had one of the Early romanian made SAR-1's. The quality was excellent and is very close to an original Soviet AKM. I have seen later ones that had canted front sight bases and looked like crap.
I've got a 2003 SAR-1. It is crude and not near as smooth as my SA85, but I have no doubt that it will last a long time, and never have a hiccup. Its a rugged gun that I don't 'have' to worry about banging around.
You can't go wrong with the Arsenal rifles. SGL's, SLR's....go for it. Get one in 5.56, 7.62 and 5.45. They are all great.
They are well built and have hammer forged chrome lined barrels from over seas. You also get a foreign made receiver with proper riveting.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm220/tds1202/DSC02453.jpg
Then again, you also can't go wrong with one of these. Chinese AK, IMO are the best...
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm220/tds1202/DSC02395.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm220/tds1202/DSC02400.jpg
I have two 74s, one by Krebs and the other by Atlantic, I believe. Both were purchased new and are several years old. They both have Bulgarian barrels, which I understand are now hard to get. Both have Kvar poly folders and the Krebs has an H1.
I also have a fixed stock Legend which is incredibly nice. However, my favorites are the 74s for the following reasons.
Accuracy is better, recoil is almost non-existant, and the polymer folder fantastic. The 5.45s have a flatter trajectory than the 7.62 and feed better than either the 7.62 or 5.56 with expanding bullets. In fact, other than my Mak 90 5.56, or other Chinese model that uses the same magazine, I would not trust the feeding on a 5.56 AK. My Chinese magazines provide their own feed ramp which eliminates feed problems in this caliber. It has no need for a barrel feed ramp, which reduces case head support.
The Russians are not dumb, and if I were to pick one assault rifle cartridge the 5.45 would be it.
Sciuirse Morrigna
04-17-11, 00:06
Arsenal and Rifle Dynamics make good conversions.
The Yugo models are nice, though heavy. Some don't like the non-chrome lined barrel, but I've had no trouble with it.
My favorite is probably the Chinese Type-56s with the underfolding spike bayonet, though some don't like the bayonet.
What about the TGI AK-74 Truck Gun, does anyone here have any experience with them? Their website says that it is built with the factory 5.45 Bulgarian barrel. It sounds good but I cannot find any information regarding TG and want to know how they rate against the SGL-31?
http://www.tnguns.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1014
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