View Full Version : Kydex for go-to-war/SHTF loadout
Would it be wise to run my handgun (FN FNX-9) out of a kydex holster on my first-line combat belt? Not talking EDC/CCW, talking combat here. I'm getting ready to place a big order from Raven concealment, and I'm wondering if I should get a kydex holster to mount to my war belt as well. Or is there a better option out there? SERPA? Other?
Thanks to those in the know.
If you are going to be ordering from Raven anyways, get a holster along with the rest of what you're ordering. Stay away from Serpa.
Alright. Out of interest, why stay away from Serpa?
Search around and you'll see why. This was near the bottom of the first page when searching for "Serpa + problems"
For starters:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33166&highlight=blackhawk+SERPA+problems
I'm sorry, I can't help you better about mounting options with the raven(I use a Safariland), but again if you search in the "gear descriptions n pics" thread as well as a general serach you will see how other members have been mounting them.
Others will chime in I'm sure.
SWATcop556
11-27-11, 18:15
There are guys that are running the RCS gear off their "war belts" but its not what it was intended for. Hell even the name gives it away, Raven Concealment. I love and use RCS gear every day and recommend it for what its used for, EDC concealed carry. I do sometimes wear it open carry but those times are rare or in a training environment. There is also a reason that they have not made adapters for their kit to be mounted on a MOLLE belt and from speaking with Tom and others they don't intend to as that is outside of the scope of the intended use for their product.
The guys that I know of who are running the kydex kit on the war belts are generally trying to simulate their everyday method of carry while adding the comfort of a padded belt for 2 and 3 day classes and also allow them to have additional load carriage abilities (extra mags for rifle and pistol, med kits, dump pouches, multi-tools, etc) that they would not normally have in an EDC role. I don't know of anyone running their gear that way who recommends it for anything other than training or competitions
If you are going to run a holster on a "war belt" then the gold standard is the Safariland series. I run an ALS for a G17+x300 off of a UBL mount from a HSGI SureGrip belt when I'm running a MOLLE belt and PC. Get the Safariland and look no further. My personal feelings is that if a weapon is exposed then it need more retention than just friction. The ALS is the bare minimum I would feel comfortable with. You have to decide what your needs are and what the intended use of the system is. When I was working uniformed patrol and we would have to go into large bars with huge crowds I ran the Safariland 6360 which is the ALS and the SLS hood. That little bit of extra retention gave me the warm fuzzies when rolling around on the ground wrestling a drunk and all of his buddies looking on and thinking about jumping in. Everything is a give and take.
Here's my thoughts on the SERPA.......:suicide:
Just ask Tex Grebner how he feels about running a SERPA. :cray: There is a reason that any trainer who is worth a shit does NOT allow them to be used in class. Anything that uses your booger hook for something other than pulling the bang stick is asking for bad shit to go down. Seen it too many times especially with the drop leg platforms. Sweet baby Jesus...........:shout:
230therapy
11-27-11, 18:57
Serpa: Google Tex Gruebner
Agree on the Safariland. I use their stuff of OC all the time.
Raven will probably serve you well. Serpa not so much. I have ALS holsters from Safariland I'm very happy with them.
COVERBUSTER
11-27-11, 20:13
Safriland would and is my pick. Being a Glock person they work great. I would not run one for a 1911 because the release is to close to the thumb safety.
The Serpa is a leg shoot waiting to happen, BOOGER HOOK TO CLOSE TO THE BANG SWITCH.
Look at the last page in this thread, it has what you want.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39159&page=18
SWATcop556
11-27-11, 20:35
Safriland would and is my pick. Being a Glock person they work great. I would not run one for a 1911 because the release is to close to the thumb safety.
The Serpa is a leg shoot waiting to happen, BOOGER HOOK TO CLOSE TO THE BANG SWITCH.
Look at the last page in this thread, it has what you want.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=39159&page=18
I would disagree regarding the Safariland and 1911 combo. When I first got into LE work I ran a 1911 in a Safariland 6280 and never had an issue with the thumb safety.
I occassionally run a 1911 for nostalgia out of an ALS holster and have yet to have an issue as well.
I can see where it might be a problem in theory but I have yet to experience it first hand.
COVERBUSTER
11-27-11, 21:04
I would disagree regarding the Safariland and 1911 combo. When I first got into LE work I ran a 1911 in a Safariland 6280 and never had an issue with the thumb safety.
I occassionally run a 1911 for nostalgia out of an ALS holster and have yet to have an issue as well.
I can see where it might be a problem in theory but I have yet to experience it first hand.
I have just tried a friends and was not fond of it with the 1911, personal preference or lack of time with the set up. Anywho, I prefer the G21 for social gatherings. I'll give it another shot next weekend.:thank_you2:
Ravens are nice but I wouldn't take one to battle if I had my choice. For CCW purposes they are nice. For work I stick with Safariland. A few years back, I was working plain clothes and my Serpa literally fell apart on me. The ****ing screws that held the paddle to the holster backed out and my weapon fell to the ground while I was working. Yes, I should have inspected my equipment better, I admit that, but I'll never use that damn holster again when it comes to work.
The three Raven holsters I ordered on April 19, 2009 were too thin for any type of combat use. I'm not in CONUS to measure them, but they are thinnest of all the Kydex holsters that I own. Thin Kydex is a money-maker for IWB use. As mentioned "Concealment" is in their name for a reason. Their think IWB holsters are great at doing exactly what they were meant to do.
There are companies that do use much thicker kydex like PSS and Kaluban (PSS can make them thicker and stronger with their new type of Kydex). Apparently RCS will do custom work, a claim made by many companies, but I have no idea how "custom" they can go or how much this adds to manufacturing time.
Safariland holsters have also been serving people well since the beginning of this war. The ALS is great holster because the locking mechanism is secure and the draw remains fast.
The ONLY issue I've ever encountered with 6004's and 1911's is that the wide ambi safeties, in a new holster, may tick the safety off if you draw it a certain way, more so if the detent spring is worn/worn out.
Given that a proper draw stroke out of these involves keeping the trigger finger straight, and that disengaging the SLS requires a movement in the opposite direction, the only remaining concern would be that when transitioning to thumb-on-thumb-safety shooting grip that when returning the thumb onto the side of the pistol after disengaging the SLS care is taken not to disengage the safety.
I did a little bit of heat forming to fix this with one, and the other I just broke in enough that it became a nonissue - have five of the stupid things now, and I love them all. I've beaten the piss out of a couple of them, those holsters are the only reason I still have functioning weaponlights on two of my pistols.
There are a lot of other good options (by good, I'm clearly excluding the SERPA. It should NOT take two hands to count the number of times I've had to help somebody extricate a pistol from one of those damned things) out there as well, but the SLS and ALS options from Safariland get the nod for a good reason.
If you run a simple belt setup, the RCS should realistically be just fine. If you forsee activity where more retention is required, then Safariland without hesitation, but like most gear items, the cost difference to top end is small, so we tend to just buy the most overkill overbuilt item anyway.
There are guys that are running the RCS gear off their "war belts" but its not what it was intended for. Hell even the name gives it away, Raven Concealment. I love and use RCS gear every day and recommend it for what its used for, EDC concealed carry. I do sometimes wear it open carry but those times are rare or in a training environment. There is also a reason that they have not made adapters for their kit to be mounted on a MOLLE belt and from speaking with Tom and others they don't intend to as that is outside of the scope of the intended use for their product.
The guys that I know of who are running the kydex kit on the war belts are generally trying to simulate their everyday method of carry while adding the comfort of a padded belt for 2 and 3 day classes and also allow them to have additional load carriage abilities (extra mags for rifle and pistol, med kits, dump pouches, multi-tools, etc) that they would not normally have in an EDC role. I don't know of anyone running their gear that way who recommends it for anything other than training or competitions
If you are going to run a holster on a "war belt" then the gold standard is the Safariland series. I run an ALS for a G17+x300 off of a UBL mount from a HSGI SureGrip belt when I'm running a MOLLE belt and PC. Get the Safariland and look no further. My personal feelings is that if a weapon is exposed then it need more retention than just friction. The ALS is the bare minimum I would feel comfortable with. You have to decide what your needs are and what the intended use of the system is. When I was working uniformed patrol and we would have to go into large bars with huge crowds I ran the Safariland 6360 which is the ALS and the SLS hood. That little bit of extra retention gave me the warm fuzzies when rolling around on the ground wrestling a drunk and all of his buddies looking on and thinking about jumping in. Everything is a give and take.
Bingo. We have always maintained that overtly worn holsters on drop legs, war belts, or chest rigs should have secondary retention. In that market, Safariland is king.
Ravens are too thin for that type of use. As mentioned "Concealment" is in their name for a reason. They are great at doing exactly what they were meant to do, nothing more.
There are companies that do use much thicker kydex like PSS and Kaluban (PSS can make them thicker and stronger with their new type of Kydex).
Respectfully, your post doesn't contain all the facts.
Our material thicknesses have changed over the years as we have been doing the lion's share of R&D in the Kydex pancake holster market. We have found over the years that certain thicknesses work for certain applications, and some are better "multi use" thicknesses than others. Your post should mention which thickness/year of manufacture of RCS holster you're using for a reference.
We have and continue to make gear for LE/MIL/Civilian Contractors using them downrange. Every company spews how "Elite Operators" use their gear, so I won't bore you with that line of marketing. That said, I'm pretty confident in saying there is no other company with more gear in use and direct feedback from two-way range shooters when it comes to Kydex pancake holsters than RCS. Saying the gear is good for "nothing more" than concealment is also short-sighted.
Thirdly, we have and will continue to accept custom requests for gear. If a certain individual feels their needs warrant a different thickness, we are happy to discuss their needs and get them squared away.
We are open that we recommend a purpose built retention holster for war belts, drop rigs, etc. That said, there are still some applications where those type of holsters are not ideal, and we have been filling that niche for the guys that need them for years now. Our focus has and will always be concealment oriented, but from day one we've built modular systems that are able to be adapted into many roles. We also build some Level II retention stuff for the agencies/units that need to hide their pistol better than a 6280, but still require active retention.
SW-Shooter
11-28-11, 12:49
Please stay away from the Serpa, there is a reason why so many professionals in the industry use Raven Concealment holsters. They just plain work.
Alright. Out of interest, why stay away from Serpa?
Others have mentioned the higher incidence of folks punching holes in themselves while using them, and that's worthy of consideration. Realistically, you can do that with any holster, but I agree that the SERPA design makes it easier for mistakes to happen.
What keeps me away from them is a striaght-up engineering flaw; it's easy for the button/lever that releases the gun can get snow/gravel/mud under it, which freezes the gun in the holster. Might as well be at home in a nightstand drawer, when that happens.
Combine the two, you have one hell of an argument for considering other options.
Glad to see that RCS has a presence here, and what kind of stones does a manufacturer have to publicly advise not buying their products?
Definitely know where I'm buying my CCW rig now.
Straight Shooter
11-28-11, 18:45
I will not debate the pro's/con's of the Serpa holster.
I do ask, however, that yall stop using that idiotic ****stick Tex Goober as an example of ANYTHING good or bad.
That ass is NOT a valid reason to use/not use anything.
OP,
Guys on this thread have far more knowledge than me regarding the Serpa but definitely stay away. If you're pumped and while trying to present your gun to threat/target you get on that trigger too early for some unintentional reason you're going to possibly have a bullet with an unintended flight path. Now imagine you're pumped in a simiilar situation donning a Serpa. You're finger could possibly be on that trigger way before you even begin the press out BECAUSE of the release button position and well the 'Tex' video says it all.
The other no go for it is the possibility of your gun not even leaving the holster at all! Here is a pretty good demo of this...fast forward to about the 1.40 mark:
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRxpXUN4bMb4&v=RxpXUN4bMb4&gl=US
The guy who posted this is a member here.
-Jax
SWATcop556
11-28-11, 18:58
I will not debate the pro's/con's of the Serpa holster.
I do ask, however, that yall stop using that idiotic ****stick Tex Goober as an example of ANYTHING good or bad.
That ass is NOT a valid reason to use/not use anything.
Idiot or not he still shot himself using a SERPA. Many people have done the exact same thing. They just haven't posted it on YouTube and made an ass out of themselves for the world to see. Still a valid arguement regardless of which tool shoots their own leg.
The mounting platform of the SERPA is another huge failure of the design. I have yet to see one make it through a weapons retention class where someone is actually trying to take your gun. It's what happens when you have screws that mount down into nothing but plastic. The belt loops are another huge shortcoming.
As Jim mentioned the release mechanism is easily clogged and rendered inoperable with small debris, dirt, or even ice.
And they make people use the trigger finger for something other than pulling the trigger.
Regardless of all of that Tex is still a good example of how shit goes bad even if he's a tool.
The above comments have been spot on, so I won't elaborate much further except to say definitely stay away from the SERPA!
I used to think SERPAs were good to go until I had one completely lock up on me during an outdoor training class. I wasn't rolling around in the dirt or anything crazy, yet still a little amount of dirt got inside the locking mechanism on the SERPA and it completely quit functioning. Luckily my firearm wasn't locked in the holster, but the locking mechanism wouldn't lock my gun back in place no matter how hard I tried. I tried to blow on it and get any dirt out, but it took nothing short of a complete disassembly at home and flushing everything out with water before it started to work again. Between that and all of the other flaws the SERPAs have, I have completely ditched all of mine and gone to the Safariland ALS.
For about the same price as the SERPA, the Safariland ALS is 100 times better.
I was forced (another way of saying I somehow forgot my safariland) to use a serpa a guy let me borrow for a pistol match a few years ago. I was so worried about the release system because of its proximity to the trigger (was using a 1911 @ the time) that I used a recoil spring buffer pad and placed it between the button and the holster itself to override the button release. Yeh I know, buffer pad, but that was before I 'smarted up' but the point is I just do not trust the blackhawk design @ all.
-Jax
That ass is NOT a valid reason to use/not use anything.
Overruled!
-brain
-soap
-birth control...
Anybody is capable of having an ND or shooting themselves.
It just so happens that BHI sells a conveniently placed EASY button for the task.
Tom, thanks for the reminder of what the C in RCS stands for.
Do you have any pictures of the TypeII setups?
Overruled!
-brain
-soap
-birth control...
Hah. That's well put.
There's really only two types of carry when you really boil it down - overt and covert. But then there's things like carrying in a No Go environment, open carry for the hell of it, and war belts.
War belts, to me at least, are kind of a grey area. They really don't see a lot of use in the real world. Their place has been more on the "recreational" side of things (I.E. Training).
For overt carry, some sort of active retention is a huge plus. But you have a lot of people who always concealed carry - but take classes and practice with War Belts (since concealed carrying ARs is usually rare). This crowd is often looking to replicate their CCW rigs as best they can. Since war belts are typically worn a bit higher then regular carry belts, this can be a bit of a challenge with high riding concealment Holsters. But even without taking that into account, I can see the importance of running a CCW rig on a war belt for training.
Yes, you can add active retention to pancake kydex Holsters. Given police departments usually require 1) the trigger guard be completely covered 2) some require at least one level of retention - it's smart to have some sort of product on hand to meet these contracts. For us, it's just a simple thumb break made from a soft loop. I've been told it's not uncommon for officers to just keep it unsnapped, but it has to be there. There's a custom project coming up that implements the Safariland hood system in, but I'm not sure how it will turn out (customer has not supplied the hoods as of yet).
In my experience though, I haven't seen or heard of war belts being used in the field much. They usually ride too high to be comfortable with armor and add bulk - which is troublesome when ounces equal pounds and vehicles are involved. I have a MOLLE belt, but its been just for range days and good for clipping over a jacket during MI's cold months.
I would be interested In hearing more about them being used down range though. I'd imagine Safariland (and realistically - the SERPA) own this corner or the market - and rightfully so. But yea.... Skip the SERPA. It would be one thing if Safariland didnt have a perfect solution for overt carry...
Respectfully, your post doesn't contain all the facts.
I did my best to add facts to my original post.
Our material thicknesses have changed over the years as we have been doing the lion's share of R&D in the Kydex pancake holster market. We have found over the years that certain thicknesses work for certain applications, and some are better "multi use" thicknesses than others. Your post should mention which thickness/year of manufacture of RCS holster you're using for a reference.
I apologize that I'm not able to measure my holsters.
We have and continue to make gear for LE/MIL/Civilian Contractors using them downrange. Every company spews how "Elite Operators" use their gear, so I won't bore you with that line of marketing. That said, I'm pretty confident in saying there is no other company with more gear in use and direct feedback from two-way range shooters when it comes to Kydex pancake holsters than RCS. Saying the gear is good for "nothing more" than concealment is also short-sighted.
This was based on the three holsters, 2 double mag holders, and two AR mag holders I had ordered back in 2009. When I received the products the Kydex was thin, the belt loops were weak, and combined inspired no confidence to use them for anything other than plain-clothes CONUS use. I realized you guys started selling nicer injection molded belt loops later but I honestly had no reason to spend even more money to update the products. I have not reordered because I honestly feel that the products do not match the majority of my use and am unwilling to wait 3 months unless it's out of necessity.
Thirdly, we have and will continue to accept custom requests for gear. If a certain individual feels their needs warrant a different thickness, we are happy to discuss their needs and get them squared away.
Again, I don't always have the option to get in line and wait behind hobby shooters, especially for a custom product. Money is never an issue, we need gear when we need gear.
I'll give you this, at least you guys post your wait times, and seem to be on target with delivery. Kaluban Cloak stated they could have a sample mailed out in a week, after eight weeks the products I received were not all correct. I refuse to recommend that company to anyone.
We are open that we recommend a purpose built retention holster for war belts, drop rigs, etc. That said, there are still some applications where those type of holsters are not ideal, and we have been filling that niche for the guys that need them for years now. Our focus has and will always be concealment oriented, but from day one we've built modular systems that are able to be adapted into many roles. We also build some Level II retention stuff for the agencies/units that need to hide their pistol better than a 6280, but still require active retention.
No issues with this. Maybe you could come out with a division called Raven Combat ;)
I did my best to add facts to my original post.
Appreciated.
Again, I don't always have the option to get in line and wait behind hobby shooters, especially for a custom product. Money is never an issue, we need gear when we need gear.
You assume we don't have other customers with similar needs? ;)
I'll give you this, at least you guys post your wait times, and seem to be on target with delivery.
Lead times are dropping across the board. Most orders ship faster than out quoted times. We can provide specific dates for guys that need gear for operational use.
No issues with this. Maybe you could come out with a division called Raven Combat ;)
Who knows what the future holds....
Take care,
Tom
Tom, thanks for the reminder of what the C in RCS stands for.
Do you have any pictures of the TypeII setups?
Actually, the best and most recent pictures are posted on TOS from a customer of ours. Let me reach out to him and see if he's okay with me cross posting them here.
SW-Shooter
11-29-11, 13:10
I've seen big name instructors literally punish themselves and their students while using RCS holsters. You'll have to ask them what they think, but I highly doubt they'd use something that doesn't work.
I don't push my holsters to their limits like they do but I do use RCS holsters every day for conceal carry. When I spend time at the range I convert those same holsters from IWB to OWB and practice both IWB/OWB presentation drills. I've yet to experience any problems, nor do I spend my time worrying about it. I know if something were to go wrong RCS would take care of me in the professional manner in which they've conducted themselves in the past.
ETA: I carry a Glock 30SF concealed in an RCS Phantom light carrier daily, I'm an average body type and it conceals as well as an MTAC without the light. I wouldn't want to be caught in the dark with a light though so the MTAC has been retired (permanently).
A quick photo of my RCS family: G19/TLR1s, G21SF/WX150, G30SF/TLR1s, ModuLoader
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z253/dhsgman/DSC01293-1.jpg
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z253/dhsgman/DSC01289.jpg
Tom, thanks for the reminder of what the C in RCS stands for.
Do you have any pictures of the TypeII setups?
Here is an old one we did about five years ago:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4058/4587397510_8991cf6ab5_z.jpg
And pictures of our latest (Thanks to Alex F. for the pictures):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6431726809_ed4d3206b7_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7169/6431726647_1ff7dfb109_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6240/6431726495_626a7804cb_z.jpg
The system is also removable if the user finds he/she no longer needs Level II retention.
Tom
I will not debate the pro's/con's of the Serpa holster.
I do ask, however, that yall stop using that idiotic ****stick Tex Goober as an example of ANYTHING good or bad.
That ass is NOT a valid reason to use/not use anything.
Serpa...sucks
Tex is an idiot. He would have shot himself eventually with whatever holster. The proof is in the pudding. Others have shot themselves with serpas...because they are dangerous. I know of no instructor who has banned the ALS on his range. Can the same be said of the serpa?
Bingo. We have always maintained that overtly worn holsters on drop legs, war belts, or chest rigs should have secondary retention. In that market, Safariland is king.
For my money Safariland ALS is the way to go for exposed carry. The draw is easy and instinctive. If you need even more retention add the SLS. A combination of both is Fort Knox secure with a surprisingly easy draw stroke. (tip: tension the retention screw properly.)
As for Raven Concealment...I am paid in full and on the list. 6 weeks down 10 weeks to go. Order #215XX
I recently purchased a kydex concealment holster from 101 holsters (http://gonetraining.blogspot.com/p/holsters.html). A review is in the works.
Here is an old one we did about five years ago:
http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4058/4587397510_8991cf6ab5_z.jpg
And pictures of our latest (Thanks to Alex F. for the pictures):
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7168/6431726809_ed4d3206b7_z.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7169/6431726647_1ff7dfb109_z.jpg
http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6240/6431726495_626a7804cb_z.jpg
The system is also removable if the user finds he/she no longer needs Level II retention.
Tom
Hmmm. Very cool.
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