View Full Version : "Accurate" 10.5" build inquiry
I really didn't know where the hell to put this post. It was either here or in the custom build forum.
I usually don't ask xxx vs xxx but this one had to be done since I couldn't really find solid info on the SBR length stuff.
One of my goals is to put together a reliable and accurate training 10.5" upper for one of my pending SBR lowers. I plan on taking a few training courses in 2012, time/money permitting.
I have other projects in the pipeline ranging from 11.5-14.5" but this is priority one for right now.
The two barrels right now that peak my interest are the Lothar Walther (LW-50) 10.5" 1/8 .223 Wylde barrel (made for Spikes) and the Shilen Match Grade Stainless 10.5" 1/8 .223 Wylde (made for Rainier Arms aka Ranier Arms Ultra Match). Besides the barrel profile and barrel material, the LW has polygonal rifling (I think) and the Shilen has the Ratchet rifling. That's really all I know about the two.
All else fails there's always the Noveske CQB barrel..
Any thoughts on the LW or Shilen barrels for the 10.5" application? I will probably run a suppressor on it on occasion. I'm even thinking about sending whatever barrel out to get the golf ball treatment by Marvin.
I would never use a SS barrel for a barrel that short.
If you want accurate, get a quality hammer forged barrel from Noveske, BCM or DD or a Colt in the length you want. All will shoot 1.5" and under.
C4
Eurodriver
11-28-11, 10:15
I would never use a SS barrel for a barrel that short.
If you want accurate, get a quality hammer forged barrel from Noveske, BCM or DD or a Colt in the length you want. All will shoot 1.5" and under.
C4
What is the shortest barrel you'd rock Stainless?
For my knowledge, why not SS in 10.5?
Eurodriver
11-28-11, 10:26
For my knowledge, why not SS in 10.5?
I'm not Grant, but out of a barrel that short you are really not taking advantage of the primary quality a Stainless Steel barrel offers: Accuracy. You gain weight, expense, and lose barrel life without getting any real benefit.
What is the shortest barrel you'd rock Stainless?
Probably 14.5.
The three main reasons are cost, weight and fragmentation range. You buy a SS barrel because you want accuracy at distance. When the barrel is only 10.3 inches, your effective fragmentation range is about 60yds. Most any quality made barrel is going to shoot .5" groups at that distance.
C4
infidelprodigy
11-28-11, 10:35
I switched out rear BUIS on my LMT 10.5" last week and rezeroed. The following target was shot at 100yds on a NRA B-8. 3 shot group with Performance Match 55gr. FMJ. Prone with support hand between forend and day pack.
http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn399/infidelprodigy/105inchgroup100yds.jpg
I would say accuracte enough.
I was wondering since Noveske puts out a stainless 10.5" as well. There has to be some reason why they are marketing one..
With that said, I do have a Noveske MK18 upper sitting in my station locker until I get my stamps in. I just want to build a more accurate upper compared to the MK18.. granted I do my part behind the trigger.
I was wondering since Noveske puts out a stainless 10.5" as well. There has to be some reason why they are marketing one..
With that said, I do have a Noveske MK18 upper sitting in my station locker until I get my stamps in. I just want to build a more accurate upper compared to the MK18.. granted I do my part behind the trigger.
Gun manufacturers will build whatever they think you will buy.
I run a 10.3 Noveske N4 (LW) barrel. It is so accurate (under 1MOA), that I sent John an e-mail advising him to STOP making SS barrels (as the N4 lites were so accurate there was no need). :D
Test the upper you have. You might be shocked.
IMHO, there is NO NEED for SUB MOA accuracy out of a 10-12" SBR.
C4
Roger that Grant. Thanks for the info. :cool: Now the other question. Centurion Arms 10.5 or Noveske N4 10.5? :lol:
Roger that Grant. Thanks for the info. :cool: Now the other question. Centurion Arms 10.5 or Noveske N4 10.5? :lol:
Same barrel and both are good companies so go with what you like.
C4
Eurodriver
11-28-11, 12:02
Gun manufacturers will build whatever they think you will buy.
I run a 10.3 Noveske N4 (LW) barrel. It is so accurate (under 1MOA), that I sent John an e-mail advising him to STOP making SS barrels (as the N4 lites were so accurate there was no need). :D
Test the upper you have. You might be shocked.
IMHO, there is NO NEED for SUB MOA accuracy out of a 10-12" SBR.
C4
Who is C4?
Edit: Sorry for the off topic.
dakotalawdog
11-28-11, 12:05
I gotta put a plug in for BCM. Their hammer forged barrels are cranking out incredible accuracy, and the BCM SS barrels are made by one of the TOP barrel manufacturers, but like Wes said, I don't know if there is a need for the SS barrels because the hammer forged are so accurate.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/11-M4-Barrel-s/41.htm
I gotta put a plug in for BCM. Their hammer forged barrels are cranking out incredible accuracy, and the BCM SS barrels are made by one of the TOP barrel manufacturers, but like Wes said, I don't know if there is a need for the SS barrels because the hammer forged are so accurate.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/11-M4-Barrel-s/41.htm
BCM hammer forged barrels are fantastic as well.
Who is Wes? ;)
C4
decodeddiesel
11-28-11, 12:35
BCM hammer forged barrels are fantastic as well.
Who is Wes? ;)
C4
I am Wes.
I will second what Grant has been saying. I fired my LMT 10.5 with a RIS-II a few times at 100 and 200 yards using a 10x scope. The results with Black Hills 69gr Match ammo were astonishing for a rifle such as this. 5 shots just barely covered by a quarter was the nominal result at 100 yards.
I am Wes.
I will second what Grant has been saying. I fired my LMT 10.5 with a RIS-II a few times at 100 and 200 yards using a 10x scope. The results with Black Hills 69gr Match ammo were astonishing for a rifle such as this. 5 shots just barely covered by a quarter was the nominal result at 100 yards.
You are? Nice to mee you Wes. :D
Psst, I don't think you were the Wes he was talking about. ;)
C4
decodeddiesel
11-28-11, 12:41
You are? Nice to mee you Wes. :D
Psst, I don't think you were the Wes he was talking about. ;)
C4
I know, but you asked lol. :lol:
Eurodriver
11-28-11, 12:48
Okay, Wes is settled. But who the heck is C4? ;)
I just bought a 12.5 BCM SS upper. (by the way Grant, why don't you stock 12.5" BCMs?) But I am using a magnified optic and hope to participate in the long-range games Mark and Pappabear are getting into with it, not use it in the CQB sense it should be used for :lol:
Okay, Wes is settled. But who the heck is C4? ;)
I just bought a 12.5 BCM SS upper. (by the way Grant, why don't you stock 12.5" BCMs?) But I am using a magnified optic and hope to participate in the long-range games Mark and Pappabear are getting into with it, not use it in the CQB sense it should be used for :lol:
C4 is Centurion.
We just haven't gotten to the BCM 12" uppers yet. We will stock them in the future.
C4
Eurodriver
11-28-11, 16:10
C4 is Centurion.
We just haven't gotten to the BCM 12" uppers yet. We will stock them in the future.
C4
Got it. I would've liked to get it all at one place, but you've still got the lowest priced, most hassle free BCM lower ordering process on the net. Expect more soon (and not just from me).
I hope that I gained at least a bit of precision going stainless over CL with the 12.5"
I've got a 10.5 inch Noveske that is spot on.
dakotalawdog
11-28-11, 21:47
Doh! My brain was thinking MSTN - Wes Grant - and not Grant T. at G&R Tactical. :laugh: Either that or its the Alzheimer's kicking in.... or it could be my Alzheimer's again...
BCM hammer forged barrels are fantastic as well.
Who is Wes? ;)
C4
I have a 10.5" chrome lined barrel from LMT and I did a little accuracy testing. I think the short thick barrels are amazingly accurate, I shot a couple of groups at 100 and 200 yards that were sub MOA.
Barrels are really so cheap and last so long even an SS barrel is relativly cheap (relative to ammunition costs that is).
Cameron
There are 5.56 (and Noveske's Mod0) chambered barrels that are still ridiculously accurate in 10.5" flavors - I would only recommend against your current suggestions and say move to one with a 5.56 chamber (CHF makes more sense, but even an SS one if you insist) allowing you to shoot more reliably out of that small package.
A free floated CHF barrel will be more than adequate as a fighting rifle, and even a good shot is going to have difficulty outshooting that barrel with any optic that belongs on a 10.5" rifle.
On to another note - if you're planning multiple rifles, plan this from the final collection backwards, and if you have the budget for more than two rifles, then make one (or two) an absolute top shelf unit with no expense spared in the functionality department.
If this means instead of having 5 carbines, you end up only with an 11.5" and a 16", then you're fine. A well thought out 11.5" with an aimpoint will perform any SBR and suppressed SBR task if you do it well, and be an effective fighting rifle out past 250m. A 16" with a low powered variable will perform every other task that 5.56 makes sense to use with - spend some money on the barrel and optic and it'll work to 600m no problem.
[If I had all this to do over - it would be a BCM/Centurion 11.5" and a Noveske/MSTN 16" recce with a dimpled barrel. An Aimpoint H1 and a Short Dot. Done]
I have 4 Form 1's out so when they come in I'll finish the rest of my projects. Most if not all my builds now have been no expense spared. I would love to just have two lengths to cover everything but that's not going to happen. Nothing wrong with having more than a few. :D
So what I gather from this thread, 10.5" stainless barrels are no better than the CHF counterparts. They are a waste of money because you're not gaining anything in the accuracy dept. They are heavier (wouldn't mind getting one dimpled) and won't last as long. How many rounds until it has to be retired? I have no idea.
Doh! My brain was thinking MSTN - Wes Grant - and not Grant T. at G&R Tactical. :laugh: Either that or its the Alzheimer's kicking in.... or it could be my Alzheimer's again...
No worries. I get that a lot.
C4
I have 4 Form 1's out so when they come in I'll finish the rest of my projects. Most if not all my builds now have been no expense spared. I would love to just have two lengths to cover everything but that's not going to happen. Nothing wrong with having more than a few. :D
So what I gather from this thread, 10.5" stainless barrels are no better than the CHF counterparts. They are a waste of money because you're not gaining anything in the accuracy dept. They are heavier (wouldn't mind getting one dimpled) and won't last as long. How many rounds until it has to be retired? I have no idea.
Really depends on such things as ammo used, rate of fire, quality of the barrel steel, etc.
Then we have to define what is acceptable accuracy and what isn't. Meaning, that if the gun shoots .75MOA at 100yds, then would 1.5MOA still be acceptable?
IMHO, quality SS barrels have a 10-15K life span (assuming good ammo is used).
C4
Interesting thread I just ran across. One sample.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_2_130/158390_.html
I'm not Grant, but out of a barrel that short you are really not taking advantage of the primary quality a Stainless Steel barrel offers: Accuracy. You gain weight, expense, and lose barrel life without getting any real benefit.
The quality of steel has in the last 5 years improved drastically. Stainless steel is getting more and more useless and lasting longer than anyone dreamed of. We use a shload of ss for die cases here at work, and we use a lot of stainless steel wire for drawing processes. It lasts much longer than it died 10 years ago.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.