View Full Version : Shooting a Glock well
Since there is already a thread on Glock accuracy I wanted to get some tips on how to shoot one accurately. With every Glock I've ever tried I pulled my shots left [I am right handed]. I am no beginner and have relegated myself to DA/SA and SA only guns. I want to like the Glock, there is much to like. What have some of you done regarding pulling shots with a Glock? I know I'm not the only one.
Thank you.
It's called "glocking your trigger" I still do it to some extent. I know pretty experienced shooters who have their sights adjusted for their trigger glocking.
My shots will pull left edge of a 4"X4" square at 15 yards.... and that's with slow fire, extra effort.
When I was practicing a lot and jumping from one gun to another it also happened to me... magically cured itself with a few magazines, and if I only shot the glocks then I was really accurate with them (no problems hitting small targets at 25 m). But transition from a 1911 with a fine trigger to a glock and nearly always it required brain/grip/finger adjustment.
To me, adjusting the sights was never an issue, I found it was much better to get used to the gun than adjust it to my trigger jerks or whatever, no matter how repeatable they seemed when I just grabbed the gun coming from another with a much nicer trigger.
To me, adjusting the sights was never an issue, I found it was much better to get used to the gun than adjust it to my trigger jerks or whatever, no matter how repeatable they seemed when I just grabbed the gun coming from another with a much nicer trigger.
I agree. Adjusting sights to accomodate bad shooting shocked me!
I have the Same G22 that I first carried over 10 years back. I didn't used to glock my trigger when I was younger. But I do it a little now... both on my G17 and the Same G22.
It could possibly be the weapon, but I would check this by sandbagging the pistol from a bench and shooting it. Have more than one person do it if need be, preferably a very good shooter. Another option is to let a second person who knows what they are doing, to operate the trigger independently.
For myself I have less issues on the Gen4's due to the smaller grip size which allows me to maintain the grip that I want while getting a better reach on the trigger to get the type of pull that I desire. I am very far out on the last pad of the finger, with a very pronounced curl in the trigger finger and no frame contact which means that I only engage the face of the trigger in a straight to the rear movement. This results in no side influence on the trigger or the frame of the pistol. On the Gen 3's and earlier this is more difficult for me to achieve with a larger grip size and I need to adjust my grip or I may start having frame contact with my trigger finger and a bit of side influence on the trigger itself and I may start pushing the weapon to the left as I pull the trigger.
It's called "glocking your trigger" I still do it to some extent. I know pretty experienced shooters who have their sights adjusted for their trigger glocking...
I'm a novice shooter and a new to Glocks. My shots also tend to group left. Can you explain what "glocking the trigger" is?
Thanks,
CJ
I spent much of my life shooting in formal NRA and military competition with tuned S&W revolvers, match-grade 1911s, match-grade Garands and M-14's, and custom Model 52 and Model 70 Winchesters. The Glock's longer, heavier trigger is so utterly different that retraining myself to master it has been a major undertaking.
The first thing I had to do was realize that my previous standards for accuracy were not realistic. They came from a precision rifleman's mindset that had been applied to handguns and then distorted by the excessive focus on hardware that plagues all gamesmen.
Then I had to make myself understand that I'm not training to shoot unrealistic courses of fire with unrealistically modified weapons--I'm training to win fights using gear, techniques, training, and tactics that simply didn't exist when I was starting out.
The main thing that helps me shoot a Glock well is a new trigger stroke. Waiting for a surprise break as I would have with a proper match trigger takes so long that it actually makes groups bigger. Instead, I use the same vigorous, smooth press that I'd use on a staple gun, and it has cut my groups roughly in half. I also use a VERY firm grip--much firmer than I ever used on the match guns of my youth.
Live and learn, I guess.
Okie John
On the Gen 3's and earlier this is more difficult for me to achieve with a larger grip size and I need to adjust my grip or I may start having frame contact with my trigger finger and a bit of side influence on the trigger itself and I may start pushing the weapon to the left as I pull the trigger.
Thanks for this.
I'm going to look into it as soon as I get home from work tonight.
Okie John
Something that helped me was reading a comment by LAV about shooting a Glock like a revolver. Trying to make it break right now will throw shoots. Pulling smoothly through is more likely to yield a centered hit. Guns like 1911's allow one to be sloppier for the same accuracy on target.
Some years back I picked up a G17 to see if I could learn to shoot it decently and love it. I fought its (ok, MY) poor groups for a year. In frustration I brought out a 1913 production Colt 1911; 9# pull, knife-edge front and shallow round notch rear sights, and elevation and windage known to be off. I allowed for the holdoff and that old warrior dumped a respectable group into the target for me. Not quite state of the art or the pinacle of high speed-low drag, but it did an honest job for me. In spite of much effort (and some cursing) I could never shoot that Glock for beans. I finally traded it off for two used DA wheelguns and felt good about it.
A while back I picked up a Sigma 9mm for grins, and it shoots quite well for me without the drama. Go figure. Maybe I need a S&W M&P but space in the safe is at a premium nowadays.
Maybe there is a trigger mod for the Glock that makes it shoot like a Gold Cup, but I don't have the time or inclination to track it down.
I miss the days when issue guns came in S&W blue boxes, only held 6 shots, and decent triggers were the norm. Que sera, sera.
John, I actually shot some video a long time ago on this topic related specifically to the Glock and the Gen3's and Gen 4's. I can't remember if I posted it on my channel however? I still have a ton of raw video dating back months that I haven't had time to get to. However I do have video explaining my grip and trigger finger placement and how I run my trigger finger. Video's in my sig line. :)
I'm a novice shooter and a new to Glocks. My shots also tend to group left. Can you explain what "glocking the trigger" is?
Thanks,
CJ
It's a slight lateral trigger jerk... pronounced in the Glock's long, staple gun like trigger action.
Dry firing and watching your front sight for zero movement is a good way to improve it.
John, I actually shot some video a long time ago on this topic related specifically to the Glock and the Gen3's and Gen 4's. I can't remember if I posted it on my channel however? I still have a ton of raw video dating back months that I haven't had time to get to. However I do have video explaining my grip and trigger finger placement and how I run my trigger finger. Video's in my sig line. :)
Mahalo. I'll check it out tonight.
Okie John
Something that helped me was reading a comment by LAV about shooting a Glock like a revolver. Trying to make it break right now will throw shoots. Pulling smoothly through is more likely to yield a centered hit. Guns like 1911's allow one to be sloppier for the same accuracy on target.
This is partly why alot of people really like the - connector and NY1 spring combo. It facilitates smooth operation of the trigger since there is no discernible shelf. You simply press through the entire motion of the trigger until the shot goes off.
I agree 100% with what you're saying as every time i prep and press through my rolling break i hit where i want. I call my shot every single time i try to press through the shelf as going low left.
Like Surf said one of the biggest issues with the Glock platform is that depending on hand size it is very easy to influence the frame via the meaty portion of your index finger during the trigger press. Your trigger press may be 100% spot on via repeatable grouping but that flesh is pressing on the frame causing leftward grouping.
xjustintimex
11-29-11, 13:59
I have this problem too :mad: I have been working on it buy firing 5rounds then dry firing 5 times over and over and it has significantly helped. Also I watched surfs video on how he works the trigger which helped me as well. Im still at the stage where I have to really think about the trigger pull as if I start speeding up my shots all start grouping left again :o for some reason I dont have this problem with any other pistol haha... but im determined to become proficient with a glock
I have this problem too :mad: I have been working on it buy firing 5rounds then dry firing 5 times over and over and it has significantly helped. Also I watched surfs video on how he works the trigger which helped me as well. Im still at the stage where I have to really think about the trigger pull as if I start speeding up my shots all start grouping left again :o for some reason I dont have this problem with any other pistol haha... but im determined to become proficient with a glock
Knowing what you're doing wrong is a HUGE step towards correcting your issues. What you are doing is "pushing" the gun under speed. You're not independently operating your trigger finger and watching your sights. Relax your strong hand and increase grip pressure with your off hand. Remember, when you tighten your strong hand you're going to influence the frame even more with the flesh of your index finger.
Keep working at it.
I too have a Glock shooting deficiency but am determined to improve. I have all original components in mine, with no "trigger job" or modifications of any kind. At 10y it's not bad but once out to 25y, things become quite apparent with groups opening up to the left but never to the right. I figured that I just need to shoot more at that distance but after reading this thread I think I have something specific to work on... I often feel my trigger finger sliding along the bottom of the inside of the triggerguard as I depress the trigger. How much could that be affecting my shots?
Dry firing and watching that front sight for the slightest movement is good practice.
I mean... it doesn't take much. I can barely catch it... but that's what pulls those shots left. It's not so much a flinch from shooting a magnum load.... it's just the bio mechanical interface of the human hand and the trigger action.
.....
I still don't know if it is shooter-induced, or pistol's propensity;....
2 years ago or so - I picked up both a G17 and an MP 9 - wanting to compare them to the 1911s I'd shot for the past 40 or so years. I WANTED to switch to a 9mm weapon - but I had to shoot it well enough to make it worthwhile. I also knew up front that there would be teething problems. At any given distance - the Glock was 2x the grouping of the 1911s, and to the left. The M&P (which I eventually sold) was 2x the group size of the Glock - but at least IT was centered like the 1911s. Well - teething pains were more like oral surgery - because I REALLY wanted to switch to the Glock. I could deal with the fact that - for me - it isn't as accurate as the 1911s, as it was still fine in terms of "combat accuracy" (whatever that truly is:). OTOH - the "left" thing bothered me - to the point where I slid the rear sights to "correct" it.
Well - have since found a shooter-based solution (and have picked up yet another G17:). FOR ME - instead of pressing the trigger with the distal phalanx of the trigger finger like I did on the 1911s, I simply switched to using the intermediate phalanx! Problem solved!!!!!!! I seem to now "know" when I pick up a 1911 (more & more rare these days) to use the distal pad, and to use the intermediate pad of the finger when shooting tupperware. As usual - YMMV.
As I did not have this problem with the "other" plastic pistol, I'm leaning towards saying that there IS something (don't know exactly what) about the Glock design that "brings out" the shift to the Democratic side of things:)
john - trapped in Illinois:(
The main thing that helps me shoot a Glock well is a new trigger stroke. Waiting for a surprise break as I would have with a proper match trigger takes so long that it actually makes groups bigger. Instead, I use the same vigorous, smooth press that I'd use on a staple gun, and it has cut my groups roughly in half. I also use a VERY firm grip--much firmer than I ever used on the match guns of my youth.
Okie John
Did you ever have the "left shift" problem? If so - did that clear up when you went to the "vigorous, smooth press"?????
TIA
john
Did you ever have the "left shift" problem? If so - did that clear up when you went to the "vigorous, smooth press"?????
My first Glock was a G19, and yes, I had that problem. I have no use for a gun that isn't zeroed, so I moved my sights to center the groups. As I kept shooting and learning the Glock trigger, my groups got smaller and slowly moved to the right. I readjusted the sights, which returned them more or less to their original position. That's where they are today. I have not had the problem with the other Glock pistols I've owned since then.
It's hard to say for sure, but discovering the vigorous press is probably what fixed it for me.
Okie John
Nephrology
11-29-11, 15:54
I also suffer from this problem. It is frustrating to make 2-3" groups at 10 yards.... 2-3" to the left!
I want to like the NY1/- connector combo but on my G26 this results in a HEAVY trigger! it is tolerable in my 17 and 19 however.
The glock trigger is just "different" for me... once ingrained I shoot very well, but it is a perishable skill.
Not only a fine SA trigger is more user friendly, to me even a good DA trigger is easier to master, perhaps because I have a lot of trigger time with S&W revolvers.
The solution for a serious user would be to put 90% of the training time on the glock, then it would feel natural.
After suffering the "shoot to the left" with my Glocks for years I finally found a solution that works for me.
First, I adjusted my grip on the gun by finding the "sweet spot" in the web of my hand. This resulted in a more off center grip than I was used to but the muscle of my thumb nested in the curve of the Glock grip more securely.
Second, and most important I now pull the trigger by consciously "curling" my finger allowing my knuckle to move away from the frame as the trigger is pulled. This results in a straight back press and prevents my trigger finger from hitting the side of the frame cutout at the end of the trigger stroke.
I have settled on the NY1 spring with the "-" connector and I pull the trigger like a double action revolver - briskly and right through.
It has taken about 1000 reps of dry fire to get this sorted out and if I am not paying attention during live fire I still get groups to the left. The trigger pull by "curling" my finger was the key.
xjustintimex
11-29-11, 16:40
Knowing what you're doing wrong is a HUGE step towards correcting your issues. What you are doing is "pushing" the gun under speed. You're not independently operating your trigger finger and watching your sights. Relax your strong hand and increase grip pressure with your off hand. Remember, when you tighten your strong hand you're going to influence the frame even more with the flesh of your index finger.
Keep working at it.
thanks for the tip. Ive been dry firing so much that my trigger finger is actually tired :suicide::D
The Glock 19 was the first gun I trained with and I carry one daily, shoot one in competition and train with one regularly.
The diffuculty involved with shooting these little guns is borderline ridiculous. I have well over 10K rounds through 9mm Glocks and my proficiency with them dissipates quickly in an absence of practice.
I shot a bone stock M9 over Thanksgiving and it was SO EASY to shoot. Even the DA first pull. I'm seriously thinking about trying one out for a competition gun.
The main thing that helps me shoot a Glock well is a new trigger stroke. Waiting for a surprise break as I would have with a proper match trigger takes so long that it actually makes groups bigger. Instead, I use the same vigorous, smooth press that I'd use on a staple gun, and it has cut my groups roughly in half. I also use a VERY firm grip--much firmer than I ever used on the match guns of my youth.
Very well said. I have experienced the exact same progression in my Glock shooting.
Edit: This is an excellent thread, gentlemen. Thanks.
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I have all original components in mine, with no "trigger job" or modifications of any kind.
There's no shame in using an OEM minus (-) connector. It made a HUGE difference for me.
Okie John
I am treating my shooting left problem like a golf game. Some days i hook right all day and other days i can hit it straight down the fairway and this will happen with no other changes to my stance or swing(that i feel anyway). So i now "shift my stance" to the way i am playing that day, meaning if i am hooking it right my stance is slightly left. I have been applying this reasoning to my Glock shooting. I have left my sights centered and will aim slightly to the right if i am hitting left that day, as some days i can shoot straight with no other changes in my grip. So far so good as this usually does not show much until past 15yds.
Pure factory triggers are always a little too "sprongy" for my preference. I've found that installing an overtravel stop can really keep the gun settled.
The overtravel stop and an extra power trigger spring with the factory 5.5 lb connector and a polish job makes for a nice 4-4.5 lb trigger with a distinct break. Not as good as a 1911, but Perfect for carry or tactical use IMHO.
Definitely let someone else shoot it. I was consistently left with my M&P pistols. 9mm and 45. No matter what I did, I just could not get it to shoot straight. I hopped on a Glock and I was just fine. My buddy had a Glock 19 that was consistently left for him, could not get it bullseye. I shot it occasionally during his time of ownership for 2 years and was bullseye from 3 yrds to 20 yards. So I sold all of my M&Ps and bought his Glock 19. It is now my EDC and competition gun.
Sometimes you just have to accept that a certain gun is just not for you. It took me a while to admit that about the M&Ps. Great guns, just not for me. Could never get used to the trigger pull. The only reason why I was so hesitant to going to Glock is because they are so god damn ugly, but it is a tack driver in my hands.
What has helped me improve is dry firing. Making it so that the front sight does not move at all. Do some slow presses, fast presses, both hands on gun, weapon handed, support handed, etc.
if you are shooting a tight group- say under 3 inches at 15 yards- and it is a bit to the left drift the rear sight. if the group is bigger than that more practice on trigger control is the key.
with a glock practicing trigger reset- after the first shot releasing the trigger forward after the shot just enough to get a reset click that can be felt and heard-not all the way out again- will result in a trigger pull about half or less than the full length pull and the problem should go away. I see too many people slap the trigger -releasing all the way then doing another long pull- this is definitely not the way to go.
replacing parts is not the answer either.
the glock is not a 1911, it's not a revolver- a different technique on the trigger is called for. Trying to trick the glock out to make it more like a 1911 is not the answer imo,and tinkering will only take you so far- it is still a glock.
This is what we do and teach. Heading towards the first joint in the trigger finger works wonders with this issue.
With that said, not everyone can do this because of hand size.
C4
I find my cuticle in line the with the right side of trigger. So yea, more trigger finger than normal.
mkmckinley
11-30-11, 09:46
Has anyone found that a flat-faced G17 style trigger helps this issue? I've always shot my 17 quite a bit better than a 19 and I've wondered if the rigger had any effect.
Surf your videos are very well done and much appreciated.
Has anyone found that a flat-faced G17 style trigger helps this issue? I've always shot my 17 quite a bit better than a 19 and I've wondered if the rigger had any effect.
My G17 runs rings around my G19. That's just two guns, but DocGKR has posted that he noticed himself shooting a G17 better than a G19, despite having had more rounds/time on the G19, whether the guns have RDS or iron sights. He mentioned it to Kyle Defoor, who said that his students tended to shoot G17's 10-15% better than G19s.
So I don't think it's just the trigger. I put a G17 trigger in my G19, and while it's a little more comfortable to shoot, the groups didn't change.
Okie John
Great thread. I'll try some of this stuff out. I seem to always shoot my G17 high left. Tried both the middle of the distal phalange, and the distal joint with various degrees of success, but no matter what I still seem to shoot high left.
if you are shooting a tight group- say under 3 inches at 15 yards- and it is a bit to the left drift the rear sight. if the group is bigger than that more practice on trigger control is the key. with a glock practicing trigger reset- after the first shot releasing the trigger forward after the shot just enough to get a reset click that can be felt and heard-not all the way out again- will result in a trigger pull about half or less than the full length pull and the problem should go away. I see too many people slap the trigger -releasing all the way then doing another long pull- this is definitely not the way to go.
replacing parts is not the answer either..
For slow fire accuracy, shooting to reset is fine. For more dynamic shooting, learning to properly release the trigger under recoil and press your shot is more important than trying to find a discernible reset point. Trying to listen or feel for the reset point is what causes double clutching or short stroking.
Not to mention, i really do wonder if anyone shooting at speed actually feels their reset. I dont, no matter how tactile it is. Even on the NY1 spring combo i feel the FORCE of the trigger leaf spring, i do not feel the "click".
There is a time and a place for everything but one of the biggest problems i have seen, with my own development and others is that shooters can develop issues with "pushing" shots if they're trying to find that break point prior to or post reset. One, smooth press from beginning to end is generally what cures this.
Now, having said all of this, one cannot argue that a shooter will be able to break shots faster if the total trigger travel is shorter so once you've got your smooth press down, learning where the gun mechanically resets is key if you are going to develop speed. First things first, learn to prep and press the trigger and then you can develop the speed otherwise you're probably going to end up slapping sally.
I am treating my shooting left problem like a golf game. Some days i hook right all day and other days i can hit it straight down the fairway and this will happen with no other changes to my stance or swing(that i feel anyway). So i now "shift my stance" to the way i am playing that day, meaning if i am hooking it right my stance is slightly left. I have been applying this reasoning to my Glock shooting. I have left my sights centered and will aim slightly to the right if i am hitting left that day, as some days i can shoot straight with no other changes in my grip. So far so good as this usually does not show much until past 15yds.
Holding right is fine on the range, but I’d prefer not have that on my mind going into a fight. I’d rather identify and solve the real problem than work around it.
Okie John
Seems like a lot of people throw shots to the left, shooting right handed. I notice being left handed that quite often my shots will go right and a little low for me.
Any other lefties notice this also?
militarymoron
11-30-11, 16:22
Seems like a lot of people throw shots to the left, shooting right handed. I notice being left handed that quite often my shots will go right and a little low for me.
Any other lefties notice this also?
yes. it doesn't happen during slow fire, but when shooting a bit quicker, i'll notice that my group will shift to the right and low.
i was in the tigerswan pistol class, and asked dave about this - he's also a lefty. he said 'you're not using enough finger. more finger!' and explained that because i was only using my pad, i'd push the pistol to the right as i pulled back.
i gave it 'more finger' - using my joint instead of the pad, and it made a difference.
now, shooting my G17 with the RMR, i'm more aware of what i'm doing as i'm tracking the dot, right on the target. i've been shooting a glock for years, but i'm just recently learning how to shoot it better. i was shooting it like my 1911, which has a lighter trigger, less takeup and overtravel, and was more forgiving in that regard.
Agreed, this is with my G34 during competitions.
Holding right is fine on the range, but I’d prefer not have that on my mind going into a fight. I’d rather identify and solve the real problem than work around it.
Okie John
xjustintimex
11-30-11, 17:52
yes. it doesn't happen during slow fire, but when shooting a bit quicker, i'll notice that my group will shift to the right and low.
i was in the tigerswan pistol class, and asked dave about this - he's also a lefty. he said 'you're not using enough finger. more finger!' and explained that because i was only using my pad, i'd push the pistol to the right as i pulled back.
i gave it 'more finger' - using my joint instead of the pad, and it made a difference.
now, shooting my G17 with the RMR, i'm more aware of what i'm doing as i'm tracking the dot, right on the target. i've been shooting a glock for years, but i'm just recently learning how to shoot it better. i was shooting it like my 1911, which has a lighter trigger, less takeup and overtravel, and was more forgiving in that regard.
now im confused :( so surfs method is to use less finger but tigerswan instruction was to use more
now im confused :( so surfs method is to use less finger but tigerswan instruction was to use more
What works for you will depend largely on the size of your hands/fingers.
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militarymoron
11-30-11, 18:01
for ME, that was the needed correction. dave said that it depends on the size of your hand, length of your fingers, your grip etc. it may not be the same for everybody.
that's the problem with general statements sometimes - they don't always account for physical differences between individuals.
xjustintimex
11-30-11, 18:06
what would you say smaller humans should do then :p
militarymoron
11-30-11, 18:13
i think you have to try out different things and see what works for you ;)
i've got small hands, so you might try what worked for me.
The idea is to keep the trigger moving straight to the rear, without pressing it to one side or the other. So if you're right handed and hitting to the left, use a little more trigger finger. If you're hitting to the right, use a little less.
If you're left-handed, reverse that.
Okie John
now im confused :( so surfs method is to use less finger but tigerswan instruction was to use moreMethods may vary as there are always different ways to skin that cat. I even have methods that I can teach that might be more effective in the short term for someone who may not have the time and ability to devote to training. I also mention in my video that you should maintain finger contact with a trigger but this isn't always the case, especially when running a 1911 style trigger at full speeds, target size and distance dependent. Even I will use a "flip and press" type of trigger manipulation with say a fine tuned 1911 trigger where my finger breaks contact with the trigger. So yes there are differences that I, or others may not have addressed. It is hard to cover everything but I do have a lot of raw video from a long time ago that I haven't had the time to get to especially 1 video particular video that touches on this topic. I explain pushing, heeling, palming, milking the grip, flinching and different variations of trigger pulls and how a shooter might push or pull a shot given their finger placement. Even how someone with a similar finger placement might either push or pull the weapon given their hand size and finger length. There are many small fine tunable variables that need to be considered. This is why so many people have a hard time self correcting and how a truly great instructor can understand this small variables and 1 be able to spot the minute difference in the shooter and 2 accurately diagnose the problem and finally 3 have a solution for the problem. Much depends on hand size and the ability of how you can get your finger placed on the face of the trigger itself.
The main consideration if you use the method that I use is that the "hook and curl" that I talk about in my video, you really need to be able to get the pronounced finger placement out on the end of the finger so that you are ONLY engaging the trigger on the face of the trigger and pulling the trigger straight to the rear with ZERO side influence on the frame or the trigger itself. Basically if you can get a finger placement where your first knuckle (knuckle on the end of the finger) is pointed towards your target you will probably have a correct "hook and curl" placement with much better odds of having no side influences.
Where do I arrive or base my opinions on trigger finger placement and running a trigger? It comes directly from my precision shooting background from within the sniping community. I know most of my video is pistol and M4, but in reality what I do feel is my "niche" or what I do the best is with a bolt gun or precision weapon and field craft. The method that I use to run any trigger finds its roots in the sniping community where the least amount of disruption of the weapon and ultimate precision is key. Basically there are differences in opinions and IMO if you can run a trigger effectively with this style, you will get great results. I don't want to say "better results" because in combat shooting speed and accuracy have a balance but I do feel that speed is in no way sacrificed with the method that I use and can even be faster with increased accuracy. OK so I do think it is better in the long term. :)
IMO there are less chances of side influences on the weapon with the method that I use and I feel that ultimately when mastered, speed and accuracy will increase. I will admit that with up close combat shooting we can get away with certain things and I do have varied techniques for given types of shooting where distance and target size play big role in how I operate a weapon.
I will say that I can also teach what I might consider to be less than optimal techniques which might be easier and quicker to get results from students which may allow someone to perform better in the short term, but I don't like band aids if I can avoid them. The big difference in my own performance is that I have the luxury of time and resources to spend working on it. Also those I teach generally are long term people that I will interact with and not just a 3 day course where I can get quick results. Again the quickest results are not necessarily the best long term results. Anyone who knows me, understands that I have a definite way in which I feel that a progression of learning should take place in regards to fundamentals and skills. It is a lot of hard work that takes time and patience, but I believe that the results are a true understanding and mastery of marksmanship. I will admit that I have had to show or do things with shooters in a short time frame to enable them to quickly be able to pass a qualification as an example, however their quickly improved performance that allowed them to pass was not the best thing for them in the long run. Fortunately I generally have the time to continue working with them beyond that.
Hope this gives some insight on it. Again what I do and what works for me is not always what may work for everyone.
xjustintimex
12-01-11, 00:12
I appreciate all the feedback :D while dry firing using my first finger joint and almost the tip I can hold it perfectly still either way. I will say its easier on my finger muscle to use more finger for some reason after a ton of dry firing :o I can also tell it is easy to push the trigger with less finger if you dont really focus on pulling straight back. That said when I practice with less finger it feels better when I "get it right" lol
I need to go to a pistol class :D
i think you have to try out different things and see what works for you ;)
i've got small hands, so you might try what worked for me.
At first while shooting my G17, I tought that my learning curve is not just there yet. I keep shooting left and low. At close range it doesnt matter, but when range is 25yds, I cant keep my shots in A sector anymore.
Once on the rent range, I wanted to try .45 and picked up STI Trojan. I was amazed in very postitive way, as all my groups were under 4" in size, few inches above the point I was aiming at.
I almost feel good to see, that this problem is common, but due to fact that there may be sollution to fix it. I have to try this "more finger" too. I worry a bit how much it will affect on my grip, because some times it is necesary to shoot one handed too.
For me I know that my shooting to the left is in part caused by clenching my right hand just before the shot breaks. You don't even need a pistol to see this. Put your fist out in front of you and squeeze, you will notice your arm move down and left.
I can dry fire all day long and keep the sights still. Add live ammo and it comes back again. Shooting a lot of ball and dummy drills helps a ton.
I figured this out doing ball and dummy drills with my surefire/dg switch. On the bad reps I bliped my light, on the good ones it stayed off.
now im confused :( so surfs method is to use less finger but tigerswan instruction was to use more
As mentioned in an earlier post - MORE finger solves the problem for me. YMMV.
john
I never expected such a large response to my question. You all have been most thoughtful. Many thanks. I may yet get back to a Glock with renewed confidence.
militarymoron
12-01-11, 13:54
one of the things that helped me further diagnose and see what was happening when i adjusted which part of the trigger finger i was using, was to hold my glock as i normally would; two handed. (i did this at home during dry fire practice, with a small bullseye target as an aiming reference).
i used my normal grip with the strong hand, but instead of gripping it tightly with the support hand, i just 'cradled' it lightly. i used the SAME support hand position - i just didn't exert any pressure on the gun except to support it. this allowed the gun to move freely when i depressed the trigger, and for me to see where the sights moved.
note that i didn't dry fire it - i just moved the trigger back and forth, taking up the slack/preset only - almost up till the trigger breaks. i did this with a cadence of about one or two presses per second or just a bit faster, over and over, watching the sights move on the target. i could see that my pistol moved to the right and down when i did that (i'm a lefty). it wouldn't happen during slow fire with a slow pull - only when i was simulating faster shots, which amplifies any 'mistakes'. press the trigger fast, and you'll see the sights move. i was pretty surprised to see such a noticeable influence in how much finger position had.
i then tried different finger positions using the same exercise until i found a position where i saw no noticeable side influence from the trigger finger when pressing the trigger. at the range, i was able to see the results using the new finger position as my groups were centered much better than before.
MM,
Thanks for sharing this technique. I'm trying it now. So far, it seems brilliant.
I spent much of my life shooting in formal NRA and military competition with tuned S&W revolvers, match-grade 1911s, match-grade Garands and M-14's, and custom Model 52 and Model 70 Winchesters. The Glock's longer, heavier trigger is so utterly different that retraining myself to master it has been a major undertaking.
The first thing I had to do was realize that my previous standards for accuracy were not realistic. They came from a precision rifleman's mindset that had been applied to handguns and then distorted by the excessive focus on hardware that plagues all gamesmen.
Then I had to make myself understand that I'm not training to shoot unrealistic courses of fire with unrealistically modified weapons--I'm training to win fights using gear, techniques, training, and tactics that simply didn't exist when I was starting out.
The main thing that helps me shoot a Glock well is a new trigger stroke. Waiting for a surprise break as I would have with a proper match trigger takes so long that it actually makes groups bigger. Instead, I use the same vigorous, smooth press that I'd use on a staple gun, and it has cut my groups roughly in half. I also use a VERY firm grip--much firmer than I ever used on the match guns of my youth.
Live and learn, I guess.
Okie John
I agree with this. Not just a firm grip, but gripping with my strong hand thumb seems to help. I also focus on pulling my trigger into the webb of my hand. So basically, I end up pulling the trigger like I'm trying to pinch my trigger finger in the webb of my hand.
notorious_ar15
12-01-11, 20:17
what would you say smaller humans should do then :p
First of all, I agree with what MM posted - great advice.
My own experience led me to discover what was said earlier on my own:
First, I adjusted my grip on the gun by finding the "sweet spot" in the web of my hand. This resulted in a more off center grip than I was used to but the muscle of my thumb nested in the curve of the Glock grip more securely.
One advice that I've seen and used was to use a bit more of trigger finger comparing to other pistols.
My grip on the Glock feels a little more 'behind' the gun than around it. I do like the fact that I can get my grip high up on the frame despite this and still feel comfortable - a lot of that being there is no thumb safety in the way.
Exercising with one of those stress-relief squeeze toys (or hand exercise balls) worked for me. I am able to press the trigger & follow through slowly like on any other pistol, and have not replaced any parts (connectors or springs).
I too have a tendency to pull my shots to the left with Glocks, as well as M&P's. Dry firing has helped some but I definitely need more rangetime to correct the issue. Slight grip adjustment has also made a positive impact.
I'm sorry I didn't read this entire thread, so if I'm repeating what others have said, well then it must just be good advice.
IMHO, I find dry-firing practice at home to be the end-all-be-all best way to train accuracy with any pistol, including glocks. Practice your hand discipline, looking down the sights while slowly squeezing the trigger from front to back. The click should be somewhat of a surprise, and when it happens your sights should not move even in the slightest. I have heard people talk about balancing a round on top of your glock at the muzzle end while doing this drill, the goal being not allowing the round to drop off. Either way, BE SAFE ABOUT IT, check that your empty several times before beginning and even then, don't point it at anything you don't want to kill, but several thousand dry fires should develop a solid foundation to build on.
This is not to say I believe in sight shooting, actually with the exception of distance shots I am almost 100% a point shooter, but this practice develops solid muscle memory that will translate over into point shooting and rapid fire, high stress shooting.
Enjoy!
Seems like a lot of people throw shots to the left, shooting right handed. I notice being left handed that quite often my shots will go right and a little low for me.
Any other lefties notice this also?
same here,on occasion, but i think it is due ,mostly , to slapping the trigger rather then squeezing it.
ball and dummy drills helped me the most
I am attempting to get some old raw video edited and posted and one particular video will further address the common problems of pushing or pulling shots and how to address that. I will also try to get video of the 2 most common types of trigger techniques that I use and how they might apply to the Glock and its trigger type. Again too much OR too little trigger finger can be detrimental. There are so many factors involved such as various weapons trigger reach, hand size or finger length combined with the actual finger placement and technique used that there is way much more to running a trigger than most people might imagine. Since trigger pull is arguably the most critical of the fundamentals, we really should nail it down. It is also one of the most confusing or difficult things for an instructor, especially a newer or less experienced instructor to properly identify, diagnose and to be able to fix the problem since the small nuances are hard to pick out when watching a shooter and also the results on target might be caused by different things happening. Then the instructor a quality instructor should have various methods available to help suit that particular shooters needs. For a newer shooter attempting to self diagnose is nearly impossible. The raw video I have is very detail oriented and will explain a lot of technical stuff for those who like that type of thing. It should give a lot of insight into ones own trigger pull and different variations to try. I don't see how the video's will be short however. :)
militarymoron
12-03-11, 12:51
There are so many factors involved such as various weapons trigger reach, hand size or finger length combined with the actual finger placement and technique used that there is way much more to running a trigger than most people might imagine.
this is so true, and even though i've been shooting for years, i have not examined it this closely until only recently. it took the tigerswan class and shooting at 25 yards with both the 1911 and glock to make me realize that there's more to it than putting your pad on the trigger and having a smooth pull.
the ball and dummy exercise DID NOT WORK for diagnosing this because it's meant more for slow fire, and exposing anticipation, trigger jerk, flinching. during slow fire with a deliberate slow press to the rear, my shots were on target, and the group size variation was based on how steady i could hold the pistol.
the shift in group due to trigger finger influence only manifested itself during the '5 rounds in 10 seconds' and faster drills, not the slow fire drills. this means that any small error, like sight alignment and trigger finger influence is magnified when you speed things up. i can dry fire all day long with close to perfect shots on target, and do decently on slow fire, but when things speed up during live fire is where the wheels start falling off the wagon.
i also found that a different trigger finger position is needed for a 1911 than a glock.
while the goal is the same for both (zero pushing or pulling the shots), finger placement may be different depending on the pistol to achieve that. the reach is very different from a 1911 long trigger to a beretta 92 on SA.
anyways, i'm just sharing here what i'm starting to realize in greater depth than before - i'm nothing more than a student in all this. this is my own experience only, and may not apply to everyone.
surf - please feel free to correct me if i've expressed anything incorrectly. i'm looking forward to your video as i'm sure it will be very helpful in my own education and understanding.
xjustintimex
12-03-11, 13:29
im just glad to find out im not the only one who pulls shots to the left when speed increases :o I think surfs trigger pull videos should make a sticky
this is so true, and even though i've been shooting for years, i have not examined it this closely until only recently. it took the tigerswan class and shooting at 25 yards with both the 1911 and glock to make me realize that there's more to it than putting your pad on the trigger and having a smooth pull.
the ball and dummy exercise DID NOT WORK for diagnosing this because it's meant more for slow fire, and exposing anticipation, trigger jerk, flinching. during slow fire with a deliberate slow press to the rear, my shots were on target, and the group size variation was based on how steady i could hold the pistol.
the shift in group due to trigger finger influence only manifested itself during the '5 rounds in 10 seconds' and faster drills, not the slow fire drills. this means that any small error, like sight alignment and trigger finger influence is magnified when you speed things up. i can dry fire all day long with close to perfect shots on target, and do decently on slow fire, but when things speed up during live fire is where the wheels start falling off the wagon.
i also found that a different trigger finger position is needed for a 1911 than a glock.
while the goal is the same for both (zero pushing or pulling the shots), finger placement may be different depending on the pistol to achieve that. the reach is very different from a 1911 long trigger to a beretta 92 on SA.
anyways, i'm just sharing here what i'm starting to realize in greater depth than before - i'm nothing more than a student in all this. this is my own experience only, and may not apply to everyone.
surf - please feel free to correct me if i've expressed anything incorrectly. i'm looking forward to your video as i'm sure it will be very helpful in my own education and understanding.No, you are right on the money. Actually you are so on the money, you are talking about the very things I have discussed in video. I go as far as talking about my very different technique that I use with the 1911 type triggers, especially the fine tuned triggers with little pre-travel, sear movement and reset where I use a "flip and press" technique where I purposely break finger contact. I have only really come across Rob Leatham who discusses it quite a bit, but it is a pretty well known technique amongst us 1911 guys.
I talk about skill level, distance to target and the size of the hit zone and how I might alter my style or technique. In my video referenced on my channel about how I run a trigger "fast" is often confused as being the ONLY way that I run a trigger, which is incorrect. Many highly skilled shooters have various methods as you do and are gaining understanding over them. However if I want to run a Trigger fast with accuracy on a Glock for example, my method is very different than a 1911. However I can translate certain trigger pulls like I use on the Glock that will translate to rifles. Also a quality instructor will have different viable methods to teach students as no two students with all the variables involved will equal the same answer.
Now here is the thing that often is a real eye opener for many shooters is that they do not consider the "arc" of movement of the trigger finger and at what point in that "arc" of finger movement engaging the trigger, where the hammer or striker is released, or how we might minimize that "arc" movement in our trigger finger. Another huge thing not considered is if the trigger is flat faced like many 1911 style triggers with a straight draw as opposed to a curved face trigger on a hinged type trigger like the Glock. In reality the curved trigger face of the Glock pistol combined with the trigger safety, causes shooters way more issues than most might even consider which is why more trigger finger is often the cure for a problem.
I get pretty in depth in my video and I am quite sure the reason you don't normally see or hear this type of information floating around so freely is that most instructors might not understand the technical details or perhaps is more often the case that even though they might give away free advice, they will all generally have information that they keep to themselves as paid services type of instruction and then they will show you the fix, but not necessarily the science behind it.
btw, the video's are being processed and hopefully I can get them uploaded this weekend. I am also trying to get some of the raw video that I shot months ago edited and online also. This past year was extremely hectic in my real world and I have a bit of a lull until things kick off again in a couple weeks. :)
OK, guys here is a video that addresses the specific question in regards to shooting the Glock pistol well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCMrsFZDwF8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCMrsFZDwF8)
I also put out a video about using various techniques and the myriad of factors that can come into play involving running a trigger. There is much much more to the topic than most would even consider. It can be confusing but it can also be very eye opening. In any event I felt the topic deserved to be in the Training and Tactics section as it goes beyond just pistol trigger manipulation.
Here is a link to the new thread in the Training and Tactics section discussing Advanced Trigger Skills!
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1159116#post1159116 (http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=1159116#post1159116)
jumpthestack
12-04-11, 02:26
I noticed after installing a grip force adapter on my G17, my left shooting problem mostly went away. I don't know why, it just seemed to change the ergonomics for my hand such that I was getting a more straight back pull.
I'd always shot well with Glocks, but never exceptionally well.
After a grip reduction and a little polish on the trigger, I am really starting to like my Glock 19 again!
It's amazing what a change of grip and a little trigger work will do!
Anyone know if there is still an archived copy of the thread that was on GlockTalk a million years ago that covered everything about trigger control on a Glock? I have a hard copy here somewhere...... it's just that somewhere could be anywhere in my stacks of crap I should burn or toss out.
Is this the one you're looking for............................
http://www.glockfaq.com/content.aspx?ckey=glock_faq_trigger_technique_101
xjustintimex
12-06-11, 23:54
another question:
how often and how many bullets down range a month do you think is needed to become and stay proficient?
:) I like this question!
I, too, am another pistolero who's spent most of his life running 1911 pattern pistols and S&W DA revolvers. By comparison Glock triggers are (by the mechanical standards of my youth) rough mechanical junk - Which is NOT to say that a Glock's heavy let-off trigger can't be made to work; heck we, all, know that for CQB pistol combat out to, say, 18-20 yards a standard Glock trigger can be used effectively in order to repeatedly strike COM.
It's just that if you've been pistol shooting for awhile, Glock's cheap heavy, long lock-time trigger represents a significant downgrade from even a straight 1911-A1's trigger of yesteryear, requires a reduced expectation in historical performance, and takes almost all older gunmen some real getting used to.
(In my own case I'm willing to admit that it took me, something like, a good 12 to 18 months to finally tune into Glock's fakakta plastic trigger; but, once I did, I was finally able to work acceptably with it.)
I'm willing to share some of what I've learned: First, I do a tremendous amount of daily dry firing. I've got A-Zoom snap caps all over my desk; and, in, 'off moments' I'll frequently run a magazine, or two, through one of my EDC Glock pistols. Believe me, dry firing helps a lot; and I'll have a lot less shots, 'pull away' from me while shooting expensive live ammo at the range.
I'm going to echo some of the other comments on the importance of teaching yourself how to use and maintain a proper grip on your Glock pistol. 'Why'? Because - especially with a crappy Glock trigger - the shooter needs to use a highly precise and, 'knowing' grip on his pistol.
In my experience, if you don't either intuitively or (better yet) cerebrally understand, 'How' to correctly grip a pistol then pressing (pulling) the trigger, and watching the front sight ain't going to do you a heck of a lot of good. This fact is more relevant when shooting a Glock than with any other pistol I've ever used.
The following comments do NOT apply to shooting a large frame Glock. Even with my slightly larger than average size hands a G-21 is, presently, ridiculously easy for me to shoot straight. 'Why'? Because there's no real, 'hand torque' involved with a G-21/20's extra wide backstrap. (The same curious fact is true of my wide backed Beretta Model 3032, 'Alley Cat'.)
It's the standard and mid-sized compact frame Glocks (and smaller) that cause most of the low left impact problems that the OP is asking about; and, then again, primarily for right-handed shooters - only. I'll tell you how I got over this annoying problem for myself: I'm ambidextrous with all power tools and handheld weapons. Now, while I write and eat mostly with my right-hand, I'm a much more accurate pistol shot whenever I switch to my left-hand. (Twice as fast with my right, but much more accurate with my left!)
So, what's happening? With a standard or compact frame Glock pistol - that's being held in your right-hand - the weak part of your grip is towards the left side of your body. It's to the open inside of your right-hand's grasp that the thinner backstrap of many pistols is able to easily torque to whenever the trigger is pulled (pressed).
Most pistoleros will, either consciously or intuitively, compensate for this grip torquing by adjusting the placement of their index finger on the pistol's trigger; but, in reality, none of these trigger finger placement techniques actually correct the problem; they only compensate for the greater overall problem with the shooter's grip.
It cannot be stressed enough: All great pistol shooting starts with the proper grip - the proper grip. Get the grip right to begin with and the actual shot will be, 'more than halfway there' for you! The next thing you want is the correct sight picture. (A whole other topic by itself that I'm not going to address here.)
After you've got: (1) The proper grip, and (2) the proper sight picture, now, is the time to apply what you've learned is the (3) correct trigger press (pull) for the particular pistol that you are using.
There's no one exactly, 'right way' to pull all pistol triggers; however, on revolvers and standard/compact size Glocks I'll suggest reading Mas Ayoob's article on, 'How To Shoot A Handgun Accurately'. The real world value of this information isn't universal; but, it is widely applicable to a very great deal of pistol shooting.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html
OK! How do you adjust your right-handed grip in order to shoot a pistol more accurately without dropping shots low and left? You have to adjust your grip in order to:
TAKE THE PRESSURE OF THE PISTOL'S BACKSTRAP OFF THE EXACT CENTER OF THE WEB OF YOUR GUN HAND.
Now, make no mistake, I'm not talking about a big horrific change! I'm talking about a very subtle adjustment in the backstrap's contact point along the web of your gun hand that's, ever so slightly, closer to your thumb rather than to the heel of your hand.
(Here, I very much doubt that anyone who isn't intimately familiar with pistol shooting, or doesn't do a lot of thoughtful dry fire practice is going to be able to understand the gist of what's being said - OK.)
Now, when you slightly shift the position of the pistol's grip against the web of your gun hand - so that it is maintaining tight linear contact closer to your thumb than previously - you are also going to have to more tightly grip the pistol's front strap by (again) slightly torquing the pistol with your gripping fingers ever so gently toward the outside of your right-hand.
When you do this Mas Ayoob's described trigger technique will, 'come into its own' for you. You're NOT going to have to knock your pistol's rear sight off to one side; and the exact direction of your trigger pull or your index finger's precise placement on the trigger (Which often varies from instructor to instructor, anyway.) is no longer going to be critically important.
The key to all of this is to either expend 100's, if not 1,000's, of live rounds downrange until finally beginning to catch on; or else, it's a matter of frequent and thoughtful dry fire practice. If you choose the latter course of action, whenever you dry fire, remember:
EVERY TRIGGER PRESS IS UNIQUE UNTO ITSELF AND HAS SOMETHING EXTRA OR SPECIAL TO TEACH YOU. CONSEQUENTLY LEARN HOW TO WATCH YOUR FRONT SIGHT, 'LIKE A HAWK' AND AS IF YOUR VERY LIFE DEPENDED ON HOW IT DOES OR DOESN'T MOVE (BECAUSE, SOMEDAY, THAT'S EXACTLY THE SORT OF PREDICAMENT YOU MIGHT FIND YOURSELF IN!) ;)
another question: How often and how many bullets down range a month do you think is needed to become and stay proficient?
I don't know what others might do; (Well, actually, yes I do. :D ) In my own situation the correct answer to being, 'really good' with a pistol has always been three to five hundred rounds each month fired in, at least, biweekly sessions - Minimum! ;)
Voodoo_Man
12-08-11, 19:34
This thread has been great for instruction and a knowledge base.
Not much more I can add to this thread that has not been said, though when I was shooting with the STG guys, I was told that you can do everything really fast, except pull the trigger.
I don't know what others might do; (Well, actually, yes I do. :D ) In my own situation the correct answer to being, 'really good' with a pistol has always been three to five hundred rounds each month fired in, at least, biweekly sessions - Minimum! ;)
That long prior post was very interesting. I've not heard it put that way before.
QuickStrike
12-08-11, 22:41
Well - have since found a shooter-based solution (and have picked up yet another G17:). FOR ME - instead of pressing the trigger with the distal phalanx of the trigger finger like I did on the 1911s, I simply switched to using the intermediate phalanx! Problem solved!!!!!!! I seem to now "know" when I pick up a 1911 (more & more rare these days) to use the distal pad, and to use the intermediate pad of the finger when shooting tupperware. As usual - YMMV.
As I did not have this problem with the "other" plastic pistol, I'm leaning towards saying that there IS something (don't know exactly what) about the Glock design that "brings out" the shift to the Democratic side of things:)
I have heard of this "more finger" solution also. Gonna try it next time I shoot.
To be honest, I have considered switching away from glocks for this reason.
I wonder if one can sand down some frame material to allow more finger access and maybe prevent this?
I have heard of this "more finger" solution also. Gonna try it next time I shoot.
To be honest, I have considered switching away from glocks for this reason.
I wonder if one can sand down some frame material to allow more finger access and maybe prevent this?
Ben at Boresight will radius the frame to minimize this issue but well...tons of people shoot ridiculously well with stock Glocks so if you've got the money and you feel like converting/modifying EVERY Glock you will ever own, go for it.
For me, i would rather force myself to learn to use the system as it comes, ie no grip reductions, massive frame mods etc.
That isnt to say that i wont do simple things on my non competition guns like radius the trigger guard to smooth out that horrific edge or remove finger grooves etc.
Make the gun work for you, just be aware of the extremes that you may be tempted to go to when seeking "performance gains".
I agree with surfs post.
Steps to consider:
1- Change where your finger contacts the trigger. The pad of my middle phalynx contacts the trigger due to my large hand size and I keep my support hand as far forward as reasonably possible to minimize leftward drift.
2- Dedicate yourself to the Glock. Shooting 7 different non Glock handguns forces you to think about your trigger positioning rather than allowing this to be automatic
3- Shoot the glock regularly to develop then maintain your skill.
If Glock's are this difficult or more difficult that other modern pistols to shoot accurately than why do so many department do to them? There are other striker fired handguns on the market that don't have the same issues. I'm not saying Glock's can't be shoot accurately but I personally know several very good shooters who struggle with accuracy with Glock platforms when they didn't struggle with a Sig for instance.
Msp keep in mind the vast majority of police recruits never handle a pistol until the academy, so as mentioned above many of the experienced shooters have trouble because they are trying to unlearn habits reinforced by tens of thousands of rounds fired on other platforms, which more difficult than starting with a blank slate. Most instructors agree teaching from the ground up is easier when students do not have any prior habits to break.
If Glock's are this difficult or more difficult that other modern pistols to shoot accurately than why do so many department do to them? There are other striker fired handguns on the market that don't have the same issues. I'm not saying Glock's can't be shoot accurately but I personally know several very good shooters who struggle with accuracy with Glock platforms when they didn't struggle with a Sig for instance.
Our agency transitioned to the Glock 22 in 1998. The performance and accuracy of people with marginal pistol skills increased by a considerable margin. A lot of people who were very good with our previous issued service pistols had to learn the new weapon and their performance showed a slight decrease for the first few training sessions and qualifications. Once the experienced shooters got use to the Glocks, their performance met or exceeded that with our old service pistols. Teaching people who were new to pistol shooting became easier as well.
People who trained outside the workplace and shot high master scores in the past had to do a little work to do during transition. It took a little work to shoot accurately at the same speed, but good shooters who were willing to work at it had very little difficulty.
When I first learned Glock won the bid to provide new service pistols, I thought the pistols were butt ugly. I also did not care for handguns and magazines that were not made out of metal. As a firearm instructor and armorer I observed an increase in performance by shooters on the range and a decrease in required maintenance. We also had fewer weapon failures on high round count pistols.
I still think Glocks are butt ugly, but they work well.
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