Lindsey Graham says US a battlefield....

[Belmont31R]

RINO's galore up in this one. This bill Co Sponsored by McCain, and supported by Graham would allow indefinite detention of people deemed to be a threat without a trial or any due process.




This is what Graham said:



The homeland is part of the battlefield and people can be held without trial whether an American citizen or not.



**** these RINO douches. Once again I have to point out we really get nothing voting for these turds.

Under DOJ regulations you can suspected of having more than 7 days of food and/or having guns. Remember Nepalitano saying being a vet is another sign.


http://youtu.be/LwKxZfcEj-U



Ive said before but Ill say it again....9/11 was the best thing in decades that ever happened to our government, and their power grab over the people. In just a decade they have repeatedly used it as an excuse to turn the US into a police state.


Even Rachel Madcow is wondering WTF. When that little boy is even upset at this you know its beyond being jacked up...


http://youtu.be/K9Z2ac34RDI

[QuietShootr]

That Graham quote is so ****ing ate up I don't even know where to begin.

What an ass hole. There is NOTHING even remotely Constitutional about this shit.

[BCmJUnKie]

Sooo...the 2nd amendment, all of a sudden makes you a suspect?

Wow

[Sry0fcr]

Graham has always been a ****ing prick with no principles and McCain usually doesn't miss an opportunity to disappoint me.

[montanadave]

Hey, now I get it. If storing up food makes someone a terrorist suspect and a U.S. citizen suspected of being a terrorist can have a sack pulled over their head and be detained incognito and indefinitely by the U.S. military at black site facilities, the government can round up all the Mormons (Romney and Huntsman included) and spirit them off to Guantanamo.

Geez, the lengths some people will go to to win an election.

Seriously, this shit is ****ed up. The government has used 9/11 as an excuse to erase the Bill of Rights lock, stock, and barrel. And if anyone raises their voice in dissent they are branded as "weak on terrorism" or "weak on defense." I mean, how can you be a patriot if you oppose the Patriot Act? :rolleyes:

This whole Democrat/Republican bullshit is such a ****ing red herring. Who gives a flyin' **** who's running the country when they're all pulling the same shit?

I know you and I have butted heads on plenty of shit, Belmont, but when I read this story this morning I had the same exact reaction.

[VooDoo6Actual]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vote.xpd?vote=s2011-210&sort=party

[chadbag]

I agree with you, and the "chasm" was not there today



Hey, now I get it. If storing up food makes someone a terrorist suspect and a U.S. citizen suspected of being a terrorist can have a sack pulled over their head and be detained incognito and indefinitely by the U.S. military at black site facilities, the government can round up all the Mormons (Romney and Huntsman included) and spirit them off to Guantanamo.

Geez, the lengths some people will go to to win an election.

Seriously, this shit is ****ed up. The government has used 9/11 as an excuse to erase the Bill of Rights lock, stock, and barrel. And if anyone raises their voice in dissent they are branded as "weak on terrorism" or "weak on defense." I mean, how can you be a patriot if you oppose the Patriot Act? :rolleyes:

This whole Democrat/Republican bullshit is such a ****ing red herring. Who gives a flyin' **** who's running the country when they're all pulling the same shit?

I know you and I have butted heads on plenty of shit, Belmont, but when I read this story this morning I had the same exact reaction.

[Belmont31R]

Hey, now I get it. If storing up food makes someone a terrorist suspect and a U.S. citizen suspected of being a terrorist can have a sack pulled over their head and be detained incognito and indefinitely by the U.S. military at black site facilities, the government can round up all the Mormons (Romney and Huntsman included) and spirit them off to Guantanamo.

Geez, the lengths some people will go to to win an election.

Seriously, this shit is ****ed up. The government has used 9/11 as an excuse to erase the Bill of Rights lock, stock, and barrel. And if anyone raises their voice in dissent they are branded as "weak on terrorism" or "weak on defense." I mean, how can you be a patriot if you oppose the Patriot Act? :rolleyes:

This whole Democrat/Republican bullshit is such a ****ing red herring. Who gives a flyin' **** who's running the country when they're all pulling the same shit?

I know you and I have butted heads on plenty of shit, Belmont, but when I read this story this morning I had the same exact reaction.



I always remember shit like this when we're told to keep pulling the lever for RINO's and Obama cannot get a second term. In this case they are in lock step with each other on dismantling what little liberty is left in this country. Republicans did a damn fine job on their own from 2001-2007 when they had control of Congress and WH. New boss...same as the old boss.


Its simply amazing to me they think its ok to just toss people in prison forever without any trial, hearing, or basic fundamental rights protections. POW's captured in a war zone abroad are one thing but they want to start snatching people off the streets in the US without any due process because they "suspect" them.


No different than Saddam Hussein's goons snatching people off the street who he deemed a threat to his power or Nazi Gestapo or Soviet NKVD. I really mean that. With no due process the only thing 'stopping' that from happening under this law is the whim of the government.

[Alric]

Bill text:

SEC. 1031. AFFIRMATION OF AUTHORITY OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES TO DETAIN COVERED PERSONS PURSUANT TO THE AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE.

(a) In General- Congress affirms that the authority of the President to use all necessary and appropriate force pursuant to the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) includes the authority for the Armed Forces of the United States to detain covered persons (as defined in subsection (b)) pending disposition under the law of war.
(b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person as follows:
(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.
(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.
(c) Disposition Under Law of War- The disposition of a person under the law of war as described in subsection (a) may include the following:
(1) Detention under the law of war without trial until the end of the hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(2) Trial under chapter 47A of title 10, United States Code (as amended by the Military Commissions Act of 2009 (title XVIII of Public Law 111-84)).
(3) Transfer for trial by an alternative court or competent tribunal having lawful jurisdiction.
(4) Transfer to the custody or control of the person's country of origin, any other foreign country, or any other foreign entity.
(d) Construction- Nothing in this section is intended to limit or expand the authority of the President or the scope of the Authorization for Use of Military Force.
(e) Requirement for Briefings of Congress- The Secretary of Defense shall regularly brief Congress regarding the application of the authority described in this section, including the organizations, entities, and individuals considered to be `covered persons' for purposes of subsection (b)(2).

Lots of sound bytes running around about this NDAA.

[Alric]

Also, this language only exists in the Senate version of the bill and it hasn't passed yet. The House version (that did pass) has none of that language and looks different.

The sky isn't falling yet, but it does reinforce the need for keeping an eye on our Congresspeople. Republicans may have some ideas right, but they've traditionally been harsh on real or perceived criminals, perhaps erring on the side of locking away too many rather than letting a guilty man go free. Thats my read on recent history anyway.

[Irish]

Frogs and boiling water, slippery slopes and all that... The writing is on the wall.

[Redmanfms]

Traitors, the both of them.

[Suwannee Tim]

Coincidently, I was reading this article in NRO (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/284393/andrew-napolitano-s-mistake-andrew-c-mccarthy) just before this thread. I have been reading and listening to Andrew McCarthy for a decade and he is a solid, no nonsense patriot and a terrorism expert. The United States has been fighting AQ, the Taliban and associated groups under the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) for over a decade and in that time only one US citizen has been detained as an enemy combatant, he being Jose Padilla.

There are lots of ugly things the government can do to us, regulate us into oblivion, borrow trillions and trillions of dollars, print trillions and trillions more, wreck the economy, entice tens of millions more Americans into dependency on government, these are things they are energetically doing right now. I am far, far more worried about the EPA destroying my economic liberty than the DOD locking me up in a prison camp. Don't get distracted by this stuff. When you do, you loose sight of the real threats.

[Kfgk14]

If they try to pull some of the shit they're authorized to pull, they'll be facing revolution so fast their heads will spin. Who will enforce this, anyway? What soldier in their right mind will follow through with this, what cop? McCain certainly isn't in any condition to go out and fight this fight.

[Belmont31R]

Coincidently, I was reading this article in NRO (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/284393/andrew-napolitano-s-mistake-andrew-c-mccarthy) just before this thread. I have been reading and listening to Andrew McCarthy for a decade and he is a solid, no nonsense patriot and a terrorism expert. The United States has been fighting AQ, the Taliban and associated groups under the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF) for over a decade and in that time only one US citizen has been detained as an enemy combatant, he being Jose Padilla.

There are lots of ugly things the government can do to us, regulate us into oblivion, borrow trillions and trillions of dollars, print trillions and trillions more, wreck the economy, entice tens of millions more Americans into dependency on government, these are things they are energetically doing right now. I am far, far more worried about the EPA destroying my economic liberty than the DOD locking me up in a prison camp. Don't get distracted by this stuff. When you do, you loose sight of the real threats.



Yes the government, overall, has become a threat to many things. I just prefer to keep myself aware of many threats, and not say "It can't happen here". It already did when when they took American citizens of Japanese decent out of their homes during WW2 and put them in camps.

[Littlelebowski]

Meanwhile, we libertarians sit and say "we told you so."

[Suwannee Tim]

......."It can't happen here". It already did when when they took American citizens of Japanese decent out of their homes during WW2 and put them in camps.

I didn't say it couldn't happen here. I think it is a remote possibility they will lock us up under the AUMF, not impossible but very remote. They are actively and busily destroying our liberty every day through the growth of government and that should be our main focus. The left would love nothing more than to have us in an uproar over something that is very unlikely all the while they work their mischief.

Let me put it differently, I am a lot less worried about remote possibilities than I am ugly realities. The remote possibility is that they will revoke our liberty in one Executive Order but the ugly reality is that they are revoking our liberty, one regulation at a time.

[variablebinary]

If they try to pull some of the shit they're authorized to pull, they'll be facing revolution so fast their heads will spin. Who will enforce this, anyway? What soldier in their right mind will follow through with this, what cop? McCain certainly isn't in any condition to go out and fight this fight.

1. They will not be facing revolution. 90% of the population is sheep

2. Who will enforce it? Are you kidding me? Remember grandma getting her ass kicked by a cop over an old rusty revolver during Katrina. They'll find people. Every dime of misery made up by politicians is enforced by a sheep civil servant. That wont change. Just keep the checks flowing so they can afford their big screen TV.

[HK51Fan]

The gov't is playing the long game. First they will dilute the core population of americans (when I say american I mean black, chinese, white, red, brown...America is a culture not a race. We're all predominantly christian and have the same holidays and values.) with foreign races and cultures. This creates a disparate group of people and eliminates trust and cohesion.
Next they work on the younger generation to desensitize them to violence against fellow americans. ( have you seen and read the story outline for the new tom clancy video game Rainbow 6?!!). It's about domestic terrorists.......the same one's you guy's are talking about. Middle class americans who are fed up and sick of losing our rights, jobs, money to foreign workers, and unscrupulous financial institutions!..
In the military they use video games for combat simulation if you don't think that this is exactly what is going on with the release of something like this rainbow 6 game then you need to rethink.
I can't imagine a company bringing a game to market that has covert military forces tracking, hunting and killing fellow americans! no way not without some assurances of reimbursement if the game flops! It's a Tom Clancy title, anyone who knows anything about Tom Clancy knows that this guy is smart, so smart that the CIA, and NSA decided to use him as a consultant after his first couple of books. He is very good at being an analyst on a global scale. Taking disparate seemingly unrelated pieces of information and fitting them together and painting a picture or snapshot of what is to come. :secret:

So yeah I think that middle class free thinking americans really need to be a little scared of the direction our country is going.:cray:
It's like things are starting to move at a frenzied pace in the last 5yrs:blink: or so!

[SteyrAUG]

The homeland is part of the battlefield and people can be held without trial whether an American citizen or not.


Somebody needs a new job at McDonalds making sure my fries aren't cold. Clearly Graham can't be trusted with anything more important.

He has also clearly just violated his oath and I'm wondering where the people are that are supposed to show up and remove him from office.

[SteyrAUG]

Also, this language only exists in the Senate version of the bill and it hasn't passed yet. The House version (that did pass) has none of that language and looks different.

The sky isn't falling yet, but it does reinforce the need for keeping an eye on our Congresspeople. Republicans may have some ideas right, but they've traditionally been harsh on real or perceived criminals, perhaps erring on the side of locking away too many rather than letting a guilty man go free. Thats my read on recent history anyway.


It's worse than you think. While the bill has yet to pass, people who are willing to write such a bill hold positions of power to propose such bills. The sky has been falling for quite some time.

[Littlelebowski]

The gov't is playing the long game. First they will dilute the core population of americans (when I say american I mean black, chinese, white, red, brown...America is a culture not a race. We're all predominantly christian and have the same holidays and values.) with foreign races and cultures. This creates a disparate group of people and eliminates trust and cohesion.
Next they work on the younger generation to desensitize them to violence against fellow americans. ( have you seen and read the story outline for the new tom clancy video game Rainbow 6?!!). It's about domestic terrorists.......the same one's you guy's are talking about. Middle class americans who are fed up and sick of losing our rights, jobs, money to foreign workers, and unscrupulous financial institutions!..


You can take your silly racist, uninformed opinions and shove them where the sun does not shine. My wife is Hispanic, my best friend Filipino, and there is more to American values than being Christian just as there is more to be conservative than voting Republican.

Not to mention that unionized American companies are doing a great deal of harm to this country.

[Irish]

Who will enforce this, anyway? What soldier in their right mind will follow through with this, what cop?

Per the Marine PAO regarding gun confiscation in America - "Marines follow orders..." http://youtu.be/3tbp1hERZjI

Go to 1:30 and watch the remainder of this video where a U.S. soldier in uniform at the end admits he's willing to shoot Americans. http://youtu.be/_wfp7qBAgGM

On the flip side of that Staff Sgt. Joshua May and his buds down in N.O. refused to confiscate weapons from Americans. Fairly interesting interview on what he and his men experienced. http://youtu.be/uLaKsbM0x3g

[Belmont31R]

http://youtu.be/rghhz_t5POo

[6933]

I despise Grahmnesty.

[Moose-Knuckle]

These flyers have been passed out for several years now by the DOJ. Compare yourself to the lists on these FBI circulated handouts.


Nowhere on there do I see middle aged men of Middle Eastern descent wielding box cutters and taking flying lessons.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/fbiflyer.jpg

Front:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Front.jpg

Back:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a144/AKS-74/FBI-MCSOTerroristFlyer-Back.jpg



So in conclusion if you own firearms, attend "para-military training" (Vickers course or the like) purchase things like MREs and flashlights, and you quote the Constitution you are grouped together with Neo Nazi's and the like.

If you don't like something you regulate it, then you criminalize it, and finally you eradicate it. . .tick-tock, tick-tock.

[chadbag]

You can take your silly racist,


Did you see the part where he said

dilute the core population of americans (when I say american I mean black, chinese, white, red, brown...America is a culture not a race.


How is that racist? He said Americans come in all colors / races but are all Americans with the same culture.

And while not everyone is Christian, the culture comes from a judeo-christian background. Even lots of American Atheists celebrate Thanksgiving and Christmas, just not as religious holidays. But they share the holidays and culture with everyone else. And those of other religious backgrounds tend to share most of the so-called American holidays (even Christmas as a Santa versus Christ day), or at the least, they respect those of us who do celebrate it.


uninformed opinions and shove them where the sun does not shine. My wife is Hispanic, my best friend Filipino, and there is more to American values than being Christian


That is not what he said.


just as there is more to be conservative than voting Republican.

Not to mention that unionized American companies are doing a great deal of harm to this country.

[glocktogo]

Graham is a scumbag POS RINO and McCain will always be the Manchurian Candidate to me. They can both go **** themselves. :mad:

[HK51Fan]

You can take your silly racist, uninformed opinions and shove them where the sun does not shine. My wife is Hispanic, my best friend Filipino, and there is more to American values than being Christian just as there is more to be conservative than voting Republican.

Not to mention that unionized American companies are doing a great deal of harm to this country.

Please take a deep breath read what I wrote again. hopefully you'll get the correct intent this time. FYI, my ex was hispanic, and a good portion of my core group of friends are either asian, hispanic, or black. So take a deep breath big guy........now let it out!

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

N/M......

[Jellybean]

If they try to pull some of the shit they're authorized to pull, they'll be facing revolution so fast their heads will spin. Who will enforce this, anyway? What soldier in their right mind will follow through with this, what cop? McCain certainly isn't in any condition to go out and fight this fight.

As per the example stated previously, I'm sure there's plenty of people they could find to do it.
And of course, something could be made to happen that will change their current mindset.....



It's like things are starting to move at a frenzied pace in the last 5yrs:blink: or so!

Same here.

[Littlelebowski]

HK51fan, I get the feeling that other races are OK with you so long as they are Christian. I absolutely disagree with this sentiment.

[QuietShootr]

1. They will not be facing revolution. 90% of the population is sheep

2. Who will enforce it? Are you kidding me? Remember grandma getting her ass kicked by a cop over an old rusty revolver during Katrina. They'll find people. Every dime of misery made up by politicians is enforced by a sheep civil servant. That wont change. Just keep the checks flowing so they can afford their big screen TV.

This.

I know 80% of the guys (and that's being nice) I ever served with would do whatever the **** they were told to do between the threat of UCMJ action and loss of benefits for their families.

A little more frightening story - and frankly I don't give a **** whether you believe it or not, I'm just providing the information. A good friend of mine works at one of the major joint commands, and he works with a SEAL O-4 who is an out-and-out socialist. My friend has gently probed a few times just to find out what this guy really thinks, and his thoughts run as follows:

1) nobody but the US government should have military weapons
2) capitalism is mostly the root of all evil
3) he and his team will willingly destroy any "civilian militias" (his phrasing, not mine) who think they can defy any orders to give up their weapons.

Think about it, guys. While you're sitting on your ass on the internet, someone you may have to fight someday is training. Don't delude yourself into thinking that all the 'bad guys' are going to be baggy-pants gangbangers or toothless skinhead idiots. Some of them will know their shit.

[QuietShootr]

HK51fan, I get the feeling that other races are OK with you so long as they are Christian. I absolutely disagree with this sentiment.

LL, IMO you might want to check fire on this. I do not think what this guy said is racist in any way - and though I'm pretty far from religious, this country was definitely founded on Judeo-Christian principles and they worked pretty well until they started to be severely undermined. That, and the fact that the Communists are so anti-religion makes me want to cut the Christians a bit of slack. Mostly they're on the side of the angels (pun intended).

[Littlelebowski]

LL, IMO you might want to check fire on this. I do not think what this guy said is racist in any way - and though I'm pretty far from religious, this country was definitely founded on Judeo-Christian principles and they worked pretty well until they started to be severely undermined. That, and the fact that the Communists are so anti-religion makes me want to cut the Christians a bit of slack. Mostly they're on the side of the angels (pun intended).

Here we go with the Deist versus Christian values of the Founding Fathers argument.

[QuietShootr]

Here we go with the Deist versus Christian values of the Founding Fathers argument.

Nuh-uh... I don't care about it, other than even in the total absence of God most of the general behavior guidelines are pretty useful. As a matter of fact, you can distill them down to one fairly useful maxim:

"Thou shalt not be a ****ing asshole."

Unfortunately we are hip-deep and sinking in ****ing assholes, however.

[montanadave]

Please excuse the momentary threadjack, but the Golden Rule exists in one form or another in every wisdom tradition on the planet. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not own the franchise.

The problem arises when folks translate "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" into "do unto others before they do unto you."

And those who subscribe to the later translation tend to be the "****ing assholes" previously mentioned. The same attitude also runs pretty deep with those that strongly support preemptive actions against people "suspected" of illegal intent rather than actual illegal activity.

So if we adopt a "Bush Doctrine" of preemptive action against American citizens suspected of illegal intent, we are effectively tossing people into a black hole for "thought crimes." The alternative is to make so many actions illegal that all of these suspect activities constitute an actual crime, thus justifying an arrest.

But if there were an actual law prohibiting the activity and an actual arrest, I suppose the suspect would have to be actually charged with a crime and that would necessitate all those bothersome details like court records and judges and hearings and trials and juries.

It's just so much easier and cleaner to "disappear" someone based solely on someone's suspicion of the potential for a future illegal act.

If the powers that be are taking actions they feel must be hidden from the public and not subject to scrutiny or review, perhaps they are taking actions they shouldn't.

[HK51Fan]

HK51fan, I get the feeling that other races are OK with you so long as they are Christian. I absolutely disagree with this sentiment.

I have strong judeo/christian values if you can't get on board with that then yeah we have a problem. I'm not saying that you aren't free to your own beliefs. For all I care you can wrap yourself in a bearskin and pray to crickets, but when you attack my beliefs. The beliefs this country were founded on and then tell me that it is not OK to say the lords prayer in school or the pledge of allegiance, or you want "In God We Trust" removed from our currency, then yeah littlelebowski we probably have a problem.

If you're trying to out me as a racist, then you're barking up the wrong tree my friend! I do however believe that we need to shut down our borders to both legal and illegal immigration. Legal immigration needs to be put on hold until we figure out how to balance our staggering budget and employ the citizens of this country. Illegal immigration needs to stop....period. We need to make it so uncomfortable for them that it is no longer an option. They are a drain on this economy and, in south texas, I can tell you that they are not just picking fruit or mowing lawns. These illigals get set up and dominate commercial cleaning, dry wall, painting, plumbing.....It's not uncommon for illegals to walk in and cash 7-8K dollar checks every other week. These guy's are building mini mansions back in Mexico while they don't pay a dime in taxes or anything else over here. It's getting the same way with oil companies down here. Back in the day a kid out of high school could make a good living as a rough neck on a rig, but now they have to compete with the mexicans and if they do get a job they're constantly harrased by the mexicans!

I don't know where you live, but I live in San Antonio, TX brother and I can tell you from living on the front lines of this mess that this shit is broken. If you're in the heartland of American or the upper East or West Coast it probably doesn't look to bad. Try living in area that is 67% Hispanic, 12% black, 3% other and the rest white! I go to the grocery store and half the time the labels are ALL in Spanish because HEB delievered it to the wrong store or something. every single public annoucement is spanish and english....This is America we speak English, the financial world speaks english, most other countries speak english to some extent, but come to San Antonio and try to speak english to some of these people? "Que? "

[SteyrAUG]

Here we go with the Deist versus Christian values of the Founding Fathers argument.


I'd just like to point out the Western civilization was created by Pagans.

All hail Zues.

:D

[chadbag]

Here we go with the Deist versus Christian values of the Founding Fathers argument.

Not really. Most "Western" people, whether Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Deist, Agnostic, etc will agree that most of the ideas embodied in the 10 Commandments, for example, are a pretty good idea. I.e., don't murder, don't covet, don't screw your neighbor's wife, etc.

And we all celebrate the same holidays -- perhaps with different purpose (Santa vs Jesus at Christmas, Easter Bunny versus Jesus at Easter, as examples) but we still acknowledge and celebrate pretty much the same set of holidays.

This has nothing to do with Religious Doctrine but has to do with the culture of the people, which in the USA and in most Western countries is based on a judeo-christian background. Again, not talking doctrine or dogma, but basic culture.

What I believe HK51fan is saying, is that if you come here and attack that culture and cultural background, then you should "get the f*ck out" and we don't need you. He is not saying we all need to be the same religion (Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Hindu, Agnostic, etc) but we do need to all be compatible with the existing Western culture.

[TomMcC]

I'd just like to point out the Western civilization was created by Pagans.

All hail Zues.

:D

I think a more accurate view would be that Western civ has been an amalgamation of both pagan (humanism), and Christian ideas. As a Christian who does not believe that the Constitution is a Christian doc. but more reflective of the political polytheism of pagan Rome, and who believes that man is depraved. What did my Christian brethren expect. You can't get good fruit out of a bad tree. Bad law, and it's application have been with us from the beginning, has it been as bad as some nations in the past, of course not.

A friend of mine once said that a Liberal will straight up tell you to your face he is going to screw you over, a conservative will tell you that he's your friend, and then stab you in the back. This has always stuck with me.

[QuietShootr]

Not really. Most "Western" people, whether Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Deist, Agnostic, etc will agree that most of the ideas embodied in the 10 Commandments, for example, are a pretty good idea. I.e., don't murder, don't covet, don't screw your neighbor's wife, etc.

And we all celebrate the same holidays -- perhaps with different purpose (Santa vs Jesus at Christmas, Easter Bunny versus Jesus at Easter, as examples) but we still acknowledge and celebrate pretty much the same set of holidays.

This has nothing to do with Religious Doctrine but has to do with the culture of the people, which in the USA and in most Western countries is based on a judeo-christian background. Again, not talking doctrine or dogma, but basic culture.

What I believe HK51fan is saying, is that if you come here and attack that culture and cultural background, then you should "get the f*ck out" and we don't need you. He is not saying we all need to be the same religion (Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Hindu, Agnostic, etc) but we do need to all be compatible with the existing Western culture.

That's the way I read it, and I'm okay with that.

[Irish]

I know 80% of the guys (and that's being nice) I ever served with would do whatever the **** they were told to do between the threat of UCMJ action and loss of benefits for their families.

1) nobody but the US government should have military weapons
2) capitalism is mostly the root of all evil
3) he and his team will willingly destroy any "civilian militias" (his phrasing, not mine) who think they can defy any orders to give up their weapons.

Think about it, guys. While you're sitting on your ass on the internet, someone you may have to fight someday is training. Don't delude yourself into thinking that all the 'bad guys' are going to be baggy-pants gangbangers or toothless skinhead idiots. Some of them will know their shit.

This is far from an anomaly and is consistent with my military experience as well.

[TomMcC]

Seems to me that the consistent testimony here is that many people who carry guns for the gov't are more than willing to enforce grossly wrong laws, kill fellow Americans for grossly unjust reasons. That sounds like creeping tyranny, and murder.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

Seems to me that the consistent testimony here is that many people who carry guns for the gov't are more than willing to enforce grossly wrong laws, kill fellow Americans for grossly unjust reasons. That sounds like creeping tyranny, and murder.

Well, here's how I would assess the servicemembers I am currently sitting by right now:

A very large majority of them are E2-E3, 18-20, werent particularily good in school, didnt have a whole lot going for them on the outside world, and so they joined the service. In the military they have a feeling of brotherhood, belonging, purpose. They have a sense of discipline and order engrained in their minds since the first minute of initial training, and that discipline is carried on through out their service by every rank and billet higher than them. They dont understand politics very well, dont have a venue to keep track of politics, and most dont really care. If an order comes down from higher to confiscate weapons and/or kill militia members, it will be written so these kids think they are really making a difference, really putting a dent in harmful domestic terrorism, and protecting the country.

You could continue to analyze the NCO, SNCO, Officer, etc, but in all these fields are people who represent every American. They all come from different walks of life, you have dems and repubs, libs and conservatives, socialists, communists, red blooded Americans, muslims, christians, athiests, pagans, asians, irish, africans, canadians, and whatever else you can think of. We even have non-citizens in our military, some find that shocking (one of my juniors is from Palau and just got his citizenship after 4 years of service and applying, good ****ing Marine and will be a damn good American).

The point Im trying to make is that even though weve all sworn to defend the constitution, only about half of us have read it, and half of those understand it/care about it. The military is a melting pot of different values, beliefs, and cultures. Dont think we are all red-blooded, hardcharging patriots. If the shit ever does hit the fan, expect a majority of our servicemembers to do what theyve been trained to do; follow orders. Wanna be a good leader? Have your junior troops do a report on the constitution and its importance.

ETA: damn, this sounds very controversial. Im not saying all are bad people, or even that a majority of them are, but Im saying that in a culture that dictates where and when you sleep, eat, and shit, making a militia look like a bad guy is relatively easy.

[QuietShootr]

Well, here's how I would assess the servicemembers I am currently sitting by right now:

A very large majority of them are E2-E3, 18-20, werent particularily good in school, didnt have a whole lot going for them on the outside world, and so they joined the service. In the military they have a feeling of brotherhood, belonging, purpose. They have a sense of discipline and order engrained in their minds since the first minute of initial training, and that discipline is carried on through out their service by every rank and billet higher than them. They dont understand politics very well, dont have a venue to keep track of politics, and most dont really care. If an order comes down from higher to confiscate weapons and/or kill militia members, it will be written so these kids think they are really making a difference, really putting a dent in harmful domestic terrorism, and protecting the country.

You could continue to analyze the NCO, SNCO, Officer, etc, but in all these fields are people who represent every American. They all come from different walks of life, you have dems and repubs, libs and conservatives, socialists, communists, red blooded Americans, muslims, christians, athiests, pagans, asians, irish, africans, canadians, and whatever else you can think of. We even have non-citizens in our military, some find that shocking (one of my juniors is from Palau and just got his citizenship after 4 years of service and applying, good ****ing Marine and will be a damn good American).

The point Im trying to make is that even though weve all sworn to defend the constitution, only about half of us have read it, and half of those understand it/care about it. The military is a melting pot of different values, beliefs, and cultures. Dont think we are all red-blooded, hardcharging patriots. If the shit ever does hit the fan, expect a majority of our servicemembers to do what theyve been trained to do; follow orders. Wanna be a good leader? Have your junior troops do a report on the constitution and its importance.

ETA: damn, this sounds very controversial. Im not saying all are bad people, or even that a majority of them are, but Im saying that in a culture that dictates where and when you sleep, eat, and shit, making a militia look like a bad guy is relatively easy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VT_7-XA2SwE/Tdq_ux3G2eI/AAAAAAAAAU0/41SPA51GtQY/s1600/bigstockphoto_hammer_striking_nail_w_sparks_333329.jpg

[montanadave]

The previous comment by LowSpeed_HighDrag describes most of his fellows as 18-20 years old. That's an extremely significant factor.

It's amazing how much difference just a couple of years makes in a person's willingness to accept instructions, directions, or orders without questioning the rationale. There's a very good reason that the draft age remained 18 even when the voting or drinking age was 21. An eighteen year old, particularly after going through the indoctrination of basic training, will follow orders without hesitation that a twenty-one year old might easily question with an immediate WTF?

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

The previous comment by LowSpeed_HighDrag describes most of his fellows as 18-20 years old. That's an extremely significant factor.

It's amazing how much difference just a couple of years makes in a person's willingness to accept instructions, directions, or orders without questioning the rationale. There's a very good reason that the draft age remained 18 even when the voting or drinking age was 21. An eighteen year old, particularly after going through the indoctrination of basic training, will follow orders without hesitation that a twenty-one year old might easily question with an immediate WTF?

Thats not exactly so. Im mid-20s and "mid level management" so to say. My peer group is nearly like those below us, but with a little more maturity and alot more experience. Growing up in the military during your first 8 years or so doesnt really happen, being that generally you live under their care, get paid, fed, watered, bathed, told how to have fun on the weekends, etc during that time. We have 28 year old privates that act like retards being led by 20 year old Cpl's with 2 deployments under their belts who act like great leaders. Its all up to the individual, but like I said, everyone i s different, there is no cookie cutter except for that nearly brand new impressionable boot.

[montanadave]

Agreed. My observations were based on watching college students in OCS. The guys that were 19-20 years old seemed a lot more willing to just do whatever they were told as opposed to some of the older guys (21 years old and up) who were much more likely to roll their eyes and say WTF?

A different sample group as these officer candidates were young guys being immersed in a military culture for the first time.

[SeriousStudent]

Thats not exactly so. Im mid-20s and "mid level management" so to say. My peer group is nearly like those below us, but with a little more maturity and alot more experience. Growing up in the military during your first 8 years or so doesnt really happen, being that generally you live under their care, get paid, fed, watered, bathed, told how to have fun on the weekends, etc during that time. We have 28 year old privates that act like retards being led by 20 year old Cpl's with 2 deployments under their belts who act like great leaders. Its all up to the individual, but like I said, everyone i s different, there is no cookie cutter except for that nearly brand new impressionable boot.

A lot of this discussion is very sobering, and it should be. But I do sleep a lot better, knowing that you have young Marines like yourself.

You remind me so much of what General Krulak referred to as "the Strategic Corporal."

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/usmc/strategic_corporal.htm

I agree very much with your analysis of the younger Marines that you lead. It was much the same when I was a squad leader.

I feel that it boils down to the leadership. There were those I would follow into Hell with a damp sponge, and others that could not lead Marines to free beer.

As long as our leadership is always thinking, questioning and evaluating, I feel we shall do well. The crucibles of Iraq, Afghanistan, the Philippines, and Horn of Africa have raised a new generation that fills me with both pride and confidence. I do worry, and I do care.

But there are some incredible young men and women out there that are not just carrying the torch, they are fanning it much, much brighter.

Thank you very much for your posts in this thread. Good luck to you, and come home safe with all your Marines.

[SteyrAUG]

As a Christian who does not believe that the Constitution is a Christian doc. but more reflective of the political polytheism of pagan Rome, and who believes that man is depraved.

Well that last part is where we part ways.

As I believe civilization and any resulting morals are the invention of man, I hardly believe that all or even most men are depraved. I think most have a capacity for good or bad and many are essentially more good or bad than others.

[TomMcC]

Well that last part is where we part ways.

As I believe civilization and any resulting morals are the invention of man, I hardly believe that all or even most men are depraved. I think most have a capacity for good or bad and many are essentially more good or bad than others.

Yes we would have to part ways. We get our anthropology from different places. As an agnostic would you not be able to go any further than to be skeptical about any anthropology that defines what's good or bad in man or for that matter, what's good or bad at all? Maybe this should be dealt with in another thread someday.

What I see in this thread is the sober realization that Americans in the government's service would murder their fellow citizens. It's always been that way, from the Whiskey Rebellion to today.

[Submariner]

What I see in this thread is the sober realization that Americans in the government's service would murder their fellow citizens. It's always been that way, from the Whiskey Rebellion to today.

There is nothing new under the sun:


On the same day, Stalin passed a law that ordered anyone accused of terrorism and plots against the government was to be arrested and executed immediately after conviction. This law gave Stalin the chance to carry out the Great Purges properly and easily without any resistance.

The Great Purges

Stalin used this 1934 law to launch a massive purge of all the people, including Communist Party members and top government officials, who were potential rivals or threats to him, those who criticised his policies and even the innocent few. Stalin held show trials for those party members who opposed him. These trials were meant for the people to see and serve as a warning to any people planning to oppose Stalin. They were held in Moscow and were filmed at times to show in other parts of Russia, so that the people in those places would also receive the same precautionary warning.

In the "Trial of the Sixteen", in 1936, Zinoniev, Kamenev and 14 other prominent members of the party who had questioned Stalin and his actions before were put on trial. They were charged with being part of a conspiracy to assassinate leading Communists, and they were found guilty and executed promptly.

The "Trial of the Seventeen" in 1937 saw Radek and 16 other members charged with a variety of crimes such as sabotage and treason. 13 of them were executed while the other 4 were brought to labour camps.

In 1938 the "Trial of the Twenty-One" was held. Bukharin, Rykov and 19 others were charged with an even greater assortment of crimes. As in the earlier trials, the secret police tortured the accused and extracted confessions of guilt.

By 1937 the purging had spread to the armed forces. Russia's most famous general Tuchachevsky and other generals were arrested and killed. By 1939, 3 out of 5 marshals and about half of the military officials had been purged.

The Great Purges had affected Russians all over as they lived in constant fear that they would be arrested and jailed, tortured or shot. It was common for ordinary citizens to accuse their neighbours or even family members of criticising Stalin so as to project a patriotic and loyal image of themselves in the hope that they would not be killed. In this way, all sectors of society were affected. People of every profession and background were purged. Over 10 million people were sent to labour camps where they often died, while a million were executed.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C0112205/stalinsrussia.html

[kwelz]

Not really. Most "Western" people, whether Christian, Jewish, Atheist, Deist, Agnostic, etc will agree that most of the ideas embodied in the 10 Commandments, for example, are a pretty good idea. I.e., don't murder, don't covet, don't screw your neighbor's wife, etc.


You know this has always bothered me. I do NOT follow the 10 commandments. And here is why.

Of the 10 the first 4 Have nothing to do with society and are about the Christian god trying to make sure you worship him the way he wants to be worshiped.

#5 is about being good to your parents.

#7 is what I would consider a personal and private matter

#10 is telling you not to think bad thoughts.

So out of the 10 we have 7 that have absolutely nothing to do with law and order or even living a civilized life.

The other 3 are the basics of human nature.

Sorry for the tangent but just something that has always bothered me.

[glocktogo]

Yes we would have to part ways. We get our anthropology from different places. As an agnostic would you not be able to go any further than to be skeptical about any anthropology that defines what's good or bad in man or for that matter, what's good or bad at all? Maybe this should be dealt with in another thread someday.

What I see in this thread is the sober realization that Americans in the government's service would murder their fellow citizens. It's always been that way, from the Whiskey Rebellion to today.

IMO, this was never in question. Some people will murder regardless of the country they do it for, or the religious, social, political or economic backgrounds they hail from. Certain factors will increase the statistical likelihood that a greater percentage will do so, but in the end it will always happen.

A more important factor is where we're at in relation to the tipping point. Much like the nuclear doomsday clock, many are beginning to feel that we're closer to midnight on the "social anarchy" clock than we've been since the Civil War. Numerous social phenomenon have created both a schism and simultaneous fragmentation in our society. Simply put, it's far easier to kill your fellow man when you can't easily relate to them on a basic human level.

In the end, it will be the failures of our so-called "leadership" that will determine just how ugly things get. I've lost so much faith in them over the past 20 odd years that I no longer believe they can pull us back from the brink. They are making the same mistakes that arrogant leaders have made for millennia. They simply cannot fathom that they're just as stupid and prone to mistakes as anyone else. :(

[Moose-Knuckle]

*cough* Bonus Army (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm) *cough*

[Submariner]

*cough* Bonus Army (http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/snprelief4.htm) *cough*

*cough*Unintended Consequences (http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link_code=qs&field-keywords=unintended%20consequences&sourceid=Mozilla-search)*cough*

[chadbag]

I think part of it is also the difference between something like the NG, and the regular Army, with your location thrown in the mix.

My brother was in the National Guard here in Utah back in Clinton's time. There was a lot of fear back then of tin foil hat stuff happening and these very questions came up. My brother said that the prevalent consensus in his unit when the "Federal Schützenfest" (as they called it) happened was that most of his unit would be on the anti-federal side. (Which would have been a good thing since they are an Apache unit)

Since almost your whole unit is locally bred and raised guys, in the Guard, they probably have different attitudes from the RA where your units are guys from all over and have no connection to the area.

A Guard unit in NY may feel differently and be more prone to "blind obedience" than on in the South or the West might be.

[Submariner]

A Guard unit in NY may feel differently and be more prone to "blind obedience" than on in the South or the West might be.

Does this change if the New Yorkers are sent South, the Southerners are sent West and the Westerners are sent to New England?

[chadbag]

Does this change if the New Yorkers are sent South, the Southerners are sent West and the Westerners are sent to New England?

Of course it does.

But I would like to see them try it in the middle of large social disruption.

I know a lot of the guys around here would not leave their families in the middle of such disruption to go police, say, New England.

[variablebinary]

Of course it does.

But I would like to see them try it in the middle of large social disruption.

I know a lot of the guys around here would not leave their families in the middle of such disruption to go police, say, New England.

There is no shortage of people that want to play gestapo in any territory.

And as was said, some people will do anything to avoid UCMJ and loss of benefits.

[montanadave]

There is no shortage of people that want to play gestapo in any territory.

Tru dat!

There are more than a few folks that feel as if life has somehow conspired against them and when given the opportunity, authority and means to exact a little social revenge will leap at the opportunity.

It's a sad state of affairs but the reality in which we live.

[VooDoo6Actual]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tavj7Jhko&feature=youtu.be

[montanadave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7tavj7Jhko&feature=youtu.be

This ****ing perpetual GWOT and the willingness of the American public to willingly surrender their constitutional rights to some ersatz domestic martial law (e.g. the Patriot Act) is beyond the pale.

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

This ****ing perpetual GWOT and the willingness of the American public to willingly surrender their constitutional rights to some ersatz domestic martial law (e.g. the Patriot Act) is beyond the pale.

It's an emotionally heartbreaking state of affairs that we are in today. I grieve for my children and the freedom that they will never know (but I wonder, did I ever know it, or was it just an ideal?).

[mr_smiles]

I'd just like to say three words on the matter... God Bless America

Blind conservatism is as bad as fascism.

[montanadave]

I'd just like to say three words on the matter... God Bless America

Blind conservatism is as bad as fascism.

I met a girl who sang the blues
And I asked her for some happy news
But she just smiled and turned away
I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play
And in the streets the children screamed
The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed
But not a word was spoken
The church bells all were broken
And the three men I admire most-
the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost-
They caught the last train for the coast
The day the music died
And they were singing

Bye, bye Miss American Pie
Drove my Chevy to the levee but the levee was dry
Them good ole boys were drinking whiskey in Rye
Singin' this'll be the day that I die
This'll be the day that I die

[Moose-Knuckle]

Neo conservatism is as bad as fascism.

Fixed it for ya. . .;)

The original The Manchurian Candidate (1962) was spot on.

If you are too far right you are really on the left. :help: