PDA

View Full Version : # of Rounds to Trust a J-Frame



rjacobs
12-01-11, 15:52
Just bought a 642 no lock. Its my first wheel gun. How many rounds do most people fire through a revolver before they deem it ready for carry? With a semi-auto I generally shoot 1000 rounds of FMJ and then 100 rounds of my chosen carry ammo before I trust the gun, but I have no clue with a wheel gun. I have dry fired it about 500 times or so and with no issues so to speak.

I was honestly thinking 100-200 rounds and then 25-50 of 135g+p Gold Dots.

tfltackdriver
12-01-11, 16:06
I am not a pro by any means, but I did carry a 36 around for years. I think you'll be fine. As long as the timing and cylinder gap are OK, I never worried about mine.

I played with it a lot more finding a round I liked and the pistol liked than worrying about actual mechanical reliability.

ST911
12-01-11, 16:26
There are a greater number of variables at play with semi-autos than revolvers, so more in depth function verification is warranted with the former than latter.

A few hundred rounds to polish your trigger parts, verify that you're gun is timing correctly, and learning your POI deviations is likely sufficient. After that, continued skills training and practice.

If you use the gucci triggers mods or add-ons, additional verification across a broader range of variables is indicated.

Irish
12-01-11, 18:01
My 642 (No lock) took a shit on me after about 100 rounds. From what I've heard they shortened the pin so they could sell them in CA to meet their regulations, I don't know if this is true. However, my gun would not hit a single frickin' primer after about 100 rounds so it got shipped off to S&W on their dime.

After having it returned from Smith I've put approximately another 100 rounds through it with no issues thus far. I would suggest at least a couple hundred rounds before you put it in your pocket. Remember, you're counting on this gun to not only save your life but possibly your loved ones as well.

sgtjosh
12-01-11, 18:10
Put a box (50) of your chosen load through it. If you have no issues, you are good to go. J Frames have often been called "5 for sure."

I miss my S&W 640. I had to sell her in 97 to finish that last semester of college.

rjacobs
12-01-11, 19:55
Thanks for the advice guys.

I already put an Apex spring/firing pin kit into the gun. I know, shoot the damn gun first. I dry fired the shit out of it and the trigger was just total crap. The Apex kit is awesome(as are all their products so far). Totally smooth trigger with a slightly reduced weight.

Need to find some better grips, but those will come down the line.

Im going to put 100 rounds of ball ammo through it then I will put 50 rounds of the carry ammo I grabbed and call it good.

SeriousStudent
12-01-11, 20:34
.................

Need to find some better grips, but those will come down the line.

............

May I be so bold as to suggest a set of Crimson Trace Laser Grips?

http://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/s-w-pistols-revolvers/01-1680

Personally I am a fan of the 405. It's a good compromise between concealment and controllability.

And I have an Apex kit in my 642 as well. Definitely an improvement, and well worth the cost.

Good luck with your new pistol, and don't forget to practice the reloads. Some dummy rounds are good for that.

Axcelea
12-01-11, 20:37
Looking at getting a J-Frame myself currently I found one interesting tid-bit. As others have said, a stock revolver is often a lot more predictable then a semi so it usually doesn't require the larger parts testing but from what I picked up from S&W is to test your ammunition for sufficient crimping.

This test more comes from the air weight 357 magnum arena with lower quality rounds but the test is to fully load then shoot all but one shot and inspect it for unseating as recoil can unseat rounds and becomes more an issue the lighter the gun and the higher the power.

rjacobs
12-01-11, 20:37
I was thinking about some CT laser grips, but I just cant afford them right now. I was thinking of some Spegel grips, again would be a bit before I could afford those as well. I just dont know if I want to become "dependent" on a laser though.

35percent
12-01-11, 21:21
I roll a 442 without an extra speedloader sometimes, it's not my favorite idea but when I really need to conceal having 5 rounds is better than nothing. CT grips are an awesome add on as well.

seb5
12-01-11, 22:16
If you can conceal a "J" you can also carry a speed strip or 2.

Raven Armament
12-01-11, 23:17
Semi-autos: 1,000 rounds
Revolvers: 500 rounds

That's just my thing.

Dienekes
12-02-11, 11:13
If the gun checks out visually and in dry fire, 50-100 rounds should suffice. About the only thing that stops revolvers is a loose extractor rod or crud under the extractor. In many years of J frames I only had one go down and that was from the pounding of +P+ ammo and going out of time; i.e., my own fault.

A dissenting word on CT sights: my wife had one on her M37. The grip shape hurt like hell on recoil, and the net effect was to slow up quick shooting watching the uber-cool red dot. Having done a lot of night fire over the years I don't see much point to them. Give me a decent flashlight every time and that'll do nicely.

tfltackdriver
12-02-11, 12:48
I guess it depends on what you're carrying it for, but I don't see that the laser hurts anything if you train properly. For me, the J's place is when I can't carry anything else. The idea of having a flashlight on my person at that point, other than an LED on my keychain, is not in the cards. YMMV.

I personally could not shoot my 36 worth a damn in low light (well, period).

In order of things I struggled with with the J-frame from least to worst: holster, ammunition, grips. I was never happy with the grips, even after getting a set of blanks and making my own. I do like the CT-305 grips.

1slow
12-17-11, 22:54
Shoot at least 100 round through it non stop !
I recently had S&W fix a new 640 with the high fixed tritium sights.

At about round 65 it heated up and the cylinder locked up on the forcing cone end of the barrel. Rub marks showed on the forward end of the cylinder.

I got it in and shot 100 rounds through it and now it works OK.

Todd Green's article "Trust No One" is spot on !

The Dumb Gun Collector
12-18-11, 14:45
50 rounds of plinking and 50 rounds of carry ammo is plenty.

rjacobs
12-18-11, 15:26
I put 50 of cheap stuff and 20 rounds of Gold Dots through it flawlessly. Shot flawlessly so unless something crops up that causes me to not trust it, this ones a keeper.

kmrtnsn
12-18-11, 15:53
50 rounds of plinking and 50 rounds of carry ammo is plenty.

I took my 340PD to the range and ran the qual twice for a total of 100rd; testing done.

As for a laser, personally, I do not see the benefit for a BUG, a weapon intended primarily for contact shot and social discourse distances. At the last stage of our revolver qual, you should be able to hit a traumaplate-sized target area at 25 yards, twice from the left side standing barricade, twice from the right side standing barricade, and once from the right side kneeling in 20 seconds with the irons.

mark5pt56
12-18-11, 17:06
Make sure you shoot enough of your carry ammunition to be familiar with the recoil impulse as it throw people off a bit, sort of a shock to them.
Yes it is important to know the accuracy limitations of the shooter/gun combination, I would work on the bread and butter distances you will more than likely find yourself in.
Think outside the box in regards to firing positions as well. What I mean is don't get stuck practicing flat footed with two hands on the gun all of the time.

Ned Christiansen
12-18-11, 22:37
J-frames are too small, too weak, an not accurate enough. Not to mention, just plain wimpy-assed when set alongside a 1911. Nothing says "he has a small one" like a 2" J-frame.

That's me, 10 years ago.

Bought one for my elderly Dad after a little incident that made him think he'd like something he could have in his pocket when answering the door. I knew it could not be the latest whiz-bang pocket auto.

Naturally, knowing that he would probably familiarize very little with it (although he is well familiar with revolvers), I checked it out.

Wow. 10X10 steel plates at 50 yards were darn near a breeze. With such a short sight radius I was very surprised how "on" the sights were. And.... so dang easy to carry! Lots to like for some circumstances.

I agree with the "put a box through it" thing, but it won't be so much about checking reliability as it will be about becoming familiar and confident.

rjacobs
12-18-11, 23:32
Make sure you shoot enough of your carry ammunition to be familiar with the recoil impulse as it throw people off a bit, sort of a shock to them.

I actually thought the +p gold dots werent as bad as the 158g Magtech I was shooting.

Detmongo
12-19-11, 08:10
Semi-autos: 1,000 rounds
Revolvers: 500 rounds

That's just my thing.

same same, it's worked very well this way for me for years.

mark5pt56
12-21-11, 05:52
I actually thought the +p gold dots werent as bad as the 158g Magtech I was shooting.

No idea on the Magtech ammo, the GD's aren't bad though.

ST911
12-21-11, 11:14
I actually thought the +p gold dots werent as bad as the 158g Magtech I was shooting.


No idea on the Magtech ammo, the GD's aren't bad though.

The Speer 135gr GDHP +P isn't bad at all.

SteveS
08-23-12, 15:28
They are ready to shoot as is. Shoot a box of ammo and see how it works . They are easy to take apart and inspect for wear. IMO J frames aren't IMO the guns you shoot 1000s of rounds through and I have an assortment of 5 frames and I enjoy them. A 158 gn through a steel J frame is not bad but through an Airweight is in my opinion can be a big owie. I like the non +p for fun shooting an the =p for defensive shooting.

SteveS
08-23-12, 15:29
If you can conceal a "J" you can also carry a speed strip or 2.A speed strip fits in the watch pocket of most jeans.

SteveS
08-23-12, 15:30
Looking at getting a J-Frame myself currently I found one interesting tid-bit. As others have said, a stock revolver is often a lot more predictable then a semi so it usually doesn't require the larger parts testing but from what I picked up from S&W is to test your ammunition for sufficient crimping.

This test more comes from the air weight 357 magnum arena with lower quality rounds but the test is to fully load then shoot all but one shot and inspect it for unseating as recoil can unseat rounds and becomes more an issue the lighter the gun and the higher the power.
IMO a 357 cartridge in a snubbie is not needed at all. owie.

1slow
08-24-12, 10:40
This year I had my 1st J frame that had to go back to S&W. 640 Pro with tritium front and rear sights. I've shot J frames since the 1970s.
At round count 77 you could not pull the trigger because the cylinder front was binding against the rear of the barrel.
After it came back from S&W I fired 400+ rounds through it without cleaning with no issues. It has worked fine since.

Rosco Benson
08-24-12, 11:14
With an airweight J-frame, reliability of the revolver itself is only part of the equation. Your ammo must also be reliable in that platform.

The issue is that, under recoil, the bullets of the unfired rounds in the cylinder can "jump the crimp" and allow the bullets to migrate forward out of the cartridge case. If a bullet manages to protrude from the face of the cylinder, it can tie up the gun.

Thus, check your ammo choice by firing several "cylinderfull minus one" strings, keeping the same unfired round in the cylinder. Afterward, check it to see if the bullet is migrating forward. If it isn't, you should be good to go.

Rosco

skyugo
08-24-12, 14:52
couple hundred rounds of live fire should be good.

which reminds me, i haven't shot mine since i got it back form smith with a new frame... :blink:

Alaskapopo
08-24-12, 19:25
Just bought a 642 no lock. Its my first wheel gun. How many rounds do most people fire through a revolver before they deem it ready for carry? With a semi-auto I generally shoot 1000 rounds of FMJ and then 100 rounds of my chosen carry ammo before I trust the gun, but I have no clue with a wheel gun. I have dry fired it about 500 times or so and with no issues so to speak.

I was honestly thinking 100-200 rounds and then 25-50 of 135g+p Gold Dots.

Its a freaking revolver 5 rounds will do. Now you should shoot it a bunch to get proficient with it. Damn people way overthink this. With a Semi auto if it has not malfunctioned in the first 50 rounds its not likely to do it with that load combination at all unless something breaks. 1000 is way over kill in my opinion with 200 being more than reasonable.
Pat

DBR
08-24-12, 23:44
If the gun is reliable after testing the next issue especially in light weight revolvers is bullet pull. This is the recoil causing bullets to pull forward out of the case and ultimately jam the cylinder. I have seen this happen on several occasions in training.

The way I test is to load the cylinder full and shoot four rounds leaving the fifth round in the cylinder. I mark this round and repeat three times total leaving the marked round unfired each time. If it doesn't pull then I consider that ammo to be OK.

Ammo that has passed this test in my Airlite 342 revolver (approx 11oz) is Speer 135gr +P, Corbon DPX 110gr +P and 148gr Wadcutters.

158gr SWCHP +P of Rem, Win and Fed DID NOT pass nor did 125gr Nyclad HP. I'm sure there are many others that would pass but these were the ones I was interested in. Jacketed bullets would probably test better.

Airweight 642 (approx 16oz) revolvers are more forgiving. They handle 158gr +P HP SWC of all the major brands without pull (these did pull in the 342) and most other normal ammo.

I think the issue of bullet pull is important to determine if you intend to carry a light weight revolver because it will paralyze your gun.

Another thing I recommend for a J frame that is to be depended upon for self defense is to pull the side plate (or have a gunsmith do it) and check inside. Over the past ten years I have found machining chips in three separate new guns. These could have jammed the gun.

I love J Frames. They are the guns most likely to be in my hand if trouble comes when I am away from home. I just want to know mine well enough to have full faith in them.

jhs1969
08-25-12, 00:35
I actually thought the +p gold dots werent as bad as the 158g Magtech I was shooting.

Generally a heavier weight bullet will have more felt recoil than a ligher bullet.

kingsford
09-03-12, 19:54
my snub nose wheel guns I took the time to get familiar with them, got to the point where I could hit my target and could put 5 rounds in a 2" group rapped fire before I carried it daily. It's not so much trusting the weapon as it is to builting your skills with your weapon.

Alaskapopo
09-03-12, 20:11
my snub nose wheel guns I took the time to get familiar with them, got to the point where I could hit my target and could put 5 rounds in a 2" group rapped fire before I carried it daily. It's not so much trusting the weapon as it is to builting your skills with your weapon.

Really? what is rapid to you and and what range? A snubby is far from ideal as a defensive weapon. It has a nitch as a last ditch back up gun or hideout gun. But if you can carry something better you should.
Pat

kingsford
09-03-12, 20:19
alaska, as i said knowing your gun and builting your skills. don't judge me or my skills.

Alaskapopo
09-03-12, 20:31
alaska, as i said knowing your gun and builting your skills. don't judge me or my skills.

I have no way to judge you or your skills because your claim is too vague.
Pat

LonghunterCO
09-03-12, 22:25
200 rounds in the same outing, non-stop, from the holster that you are planning to carry it in, in the position you are planing to carry it in. If anything, anything, messes up then evaluate, fix, and start over. You are testing out the whole system not just the ammo and weapon (you with it, weapon, ammo, hoslter, and speed loaders/strips). That's just me.

Matt C.
09-04-12, 11:52
200 rounds in the same outing, non-stop, from the holster that you are planning to carry it in, in the position you are planing to carry it in. If anything, anything, messes up then evaluate, fix, and start over. You are testing out the whole system not just the ammo and weapon (you with it, weapon, ammo, hoslter, and speed loaders/strips). That's just me.

This^

Warp
09-04-12, 20:00
Just bought a 642 no lock. Its my first wheel gun. How many rounds do most people fire through a revolver before they deem it ready for carry? With a semi-auto I generally shoot 1000 rounds of FMJ and then 100 rounds of my chosen carry ammo before I trust the gun, but I have no clue with a wheel gun. I have dry fired it about 500 times or so and with no issues so to speak.

I was honestly thinking 100-200 rounds and then 25-50 of 135g+p Gold Dots.

I would carry a brand new 642 after 50 good rounds. I'd probably put more than that through it on the first trip out, though.

For quality, reputable semi autos I'll go 200-300 FMJ and 100 of my chosen JHP before carrying.

goodoleboy
09-11-12, 20:47
I HAD a 342 Ti once. I shot several hundred rounds of plinking ammo through it with no problems. The first time I put some of my self-defense loads through it, it backed the bullets out of the shells just enough to block the cylinder from rotating to the second round in the cylinder.

If you are thinking of running +P through your J Frame, especially if it is one of the air-lite models like mine, be sure you have PLENTY of crimp on the bullets and have shot over a hundred rounds through it without incident. It would be a bitch to have it impinge on the second round.

Warp
09-11-12, 22:31
I HAD a 342 Ti once. I shot several hundred rounds of plinking ammo through it with no problems. The first time I put some of my self-defense loads through it, it backed the bullets out of the shells just enough to block the cylinder from rotating to the second round in the cylinder.

If you are thinking of running +P through your J Frame, especially if it is one of the air-lite models like mine, be sure you have PLENTY of crimp on the bullets and have shot over a hundred rounds through it without incident. It would be a bitch to have it impinge on the second round.

What round, specifically, jumped crimp enough to bind up the cylinder?

goodoleboy
09-14-12, 17:13
It's been about 6 or 7 years, so I don't remember. They were given to me by a friend of mine that was a local jailor and they were what he was issued before they switched to 9mm. All I remember is that they had hollow-point semi-wadcutter bullets, which I thought was a little odd.

jw0312
09-15-12, 12:49
I bought a 642 this past spring. Put 3 boxes (150 rounds) of FMJ through it before the 50 rounds of carry ammo all without incident. That was good enough for me to be comfortable with it.

DTHN2LGS
09-15-12, 13:34
Generally a heavier weight bullet will have more felt recoil than a ligher bullet.

This is my experience with my 642-1 (Airweight) as well. 158 gr. S&B LRN are more painful to shoot than the Corbon DPX 110 gr. +P's.

I also had one of the S&B 158's come out of the case far enough to keep the cylinder from turning.

.

Jake'sDad
09-22-12, 09:23
It's been about 6 or 7 years, so I don't remember. They were given to me by a friend of mine that was a local jailor and they were what he was issued before they switched to 9mm. All I remember is that they had hollow-point semi-wadcutter bullets, which I thought was a little odd.

Weird. I've fired more than 500 rounds of various +P's through my pre lock 342, (a thousand might be a closer estimate), including a hundred or two of SWCHP's from various manufacturer's, and never had that happen. Could they have been reloads?

The Buffalo Bore heavy .38's are....well....interesting out of the Airlite.... :blink: ..... not really the load you want to carry in it if fast follow up shots are something you want to be able to achieve.

Jake'sDad
09-22-12, 09:35
This is my experience with my 642-1 (Airweight) as well. 158 gr. S&B LRN are more painful to shoot than the Corbon DPX 110 gr. +P's.

I also had one of the S&B 158's come out of the case far enough to keep the cylinder from turning.

.

Now that's bizarre. I've had an Airweight since the 1970's that was my backup and off duty gun for years. I've put thousands of rounds through it, 158 and 125 grain+P's that were our duty loads at different times, reloads, etc. It's been rebuilt and tightened up 3 or 4 times from so much shooting. (Hey, they gave me all I could shoot..). I've never had a round pull out and lock it up.

I think I'd avoid that S&B load. Sounds like it had little crimp on it.

DTHN2LGS
09-22-12, 16:31
Now that's bizarre. I've had an Airweight since the 1970's that was my backup and off duty gun for years. I've put thousands of rounds through it, 158 and 125 grain+P's that were our duty loads at different times, reloads, etc. It's been rebuilt and tightened up 3 or 4 times from so much shooting. (Hey, they gave me all I could shoot..). I've never had a round pull out and lock it up.

I think I'd avoid that S&B load. Sounds like it had little crimp on it.

Yeah, I have three more boxes left, after that I won't buy them anymore.

oldtexan
09-23-12, 10:23
I've owned three 642s over the years: a 642-1 bought new in the early 2000s with about 300 rds through it total, and a pair of 642-2 bought new in 2008, each with about 700 rds fired. All three exhibited issues with reliability. One 642-2 began having failure to fire issues after a few hundred rds. Took it to Frank Smith at LSG, who replaced its (too short)firing pin. The other two guns have had cylinder binding issues, and at times, the cylinder release has been very difficult to activate. The guns were stock, were fed factory ammo only, and were kept clean and properly lubed.

I have a 649-5 with exactly 1000 rds through it with zero function issues of any kind. Like the 642s, it is stock, is fed only factory ammo, and is kept clean and lubed.

Based on this limited experience, I think that the relatively inexpensive 642 model may be more likely to exhibit function issues than the more expensive all steel j-frames.

I have gotten rid of all three 642s. They were pocket-carried weakside backup guns and have been replaced with 9mm Walther PPSs. My three PPSs have actually proven to be more reliable(one stoppage, an ejection failure, in about 3900 rds among the three guns) than my 642s.

Doc Safari
06-04-13, 15:01
My 642 (No lock) took a shit on me after about 100 rounds. From what I've heard they shortened the pin so they could sell them in CA to meet their regulations, I don't know if this is true. However, my gun would not hit a single frickin' primer after about 100 rounds so it got shipped off to S&W on their dime.


This has got to be a fluke. I dry fired my 642 while looking through the cylinder gap at the rear and there is plenty of firing pin protrusion to bust the primer. Must have been a defective firing pin right from the factory.

danpass
06-04-13, 18:37
I shot 10-15 rnds of 135 +p gold dot and called it good. Especially since it hurts lol (moreso in terms of available supply and finding that stuff than in physical pain)

Then I created a puff load using berrys 125 to shoot at the range occasionally.