View Full Version : Shotgun for HD a rational choice?
SpookyPistolero
12-01-11, 17:33
I dig this forum because of the general lack of BS. Lots to read and learn. I've certainly looked around this forum to answer the question of this thread, and hope you guys can support/refute things.
My profession allows the luxury of using data to reach conclusions; I don't feel I have access to 'real' data for this kind of problem. What does history say that one can expect from 00 buckshot at < 25 yards? How rational a choice is the shotgun for HD? How reliable a stopper can it be considered to be?
I'm not interested in the shotgun as a jack of all trades or for anything outside the doors of my home. That's what my AR is for. I simply want to make sure I am choosing the best tool for the job to protect my loved ones.
I dig this forum because of the general lack of BS. Lots to read and learn. I've certainly looked around this forum to answer the question of this thread, and hope you guys can support/refute things.
My profession allows the luxury of using data to reach conclusions; I don't feel I have access to 'real' data for this kind of problem. What does history say that one can expect from 00 buckshot at < 25 yards? How rational a choice is the shotgun for HD? How reliable a stopper can it be considered to be?
I'm not interested in the shotgun as a jack of all trades or for anything outside the doors of my home. That's what my AR is for. I simply want to make sure I am choosing the best tool for the job to protect my loved ones.
Home Defense/Tactical Shotgun? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7550)
Home Defense Long Guns (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=44869)
Shotgun vs. AR15 for home defense (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=48765)
I need a home defense weapon. Does a shotgun do something better than an SBR? (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=67761)
There is plenty of data available on this forum.
A shotgun is a rational choice. Is it the best choice? I supposes that depends on your home, neighborhood, perceived threats, skill set, experience, level of training, and commitment to continued training. More data is needed to answer the question at hand.
A shotgun blast to the torso at hallway distances is potentially devastating.
SpookyPistolero
12-01-11, 18:34
Thanks for the reply and links. I have been reading through those threads and others. But actually this thread may as well be closed now, as I've just read some of the work in the terminal ballistics forum by Doc. Specifically I was under the impression that the 12ga might have improved efficacy at shorter ranges, and provide less opportunity for overpenetration than 5.56. The opposite appears to be true (so I will abandon the notion).
Thanks again.
Nightgunner
12-01-11, 18:40
There are a couple of things to consider actually. Who will have access to the weapon?
My wife is more confident with the .12ga than the AR. My son is more proficient with a HG than the AR. I prefer the AR when things go bump in the night. Being hit with any of them will pretty much cause the recipient to have a very bad evening.
Use what you know best and are most confident with.
I think the shotgun is a valuable tool just like everything else....if you are trained with it.
I also think that it has the most "Myths".
People thinking they dont have to aim.
Just point and shoot.
The "Sound" being the situation stopper.
Being a one shot stopper period.
I cant count how many times I have heard someone in a gun store or anywhere else for that matter say "All ya gotta do is rack th' slide!"
Which is complete garbage.
I think its another tool with a job.
Not using it for the proper situation will result in failure
I think it can be summed up as something not to be over estimated or underestimated.
Racking won't make the BGs run for the hills, it needs to be aimed, won't send people flying backwards and out windows, no cone of death getting multiple BGs, no guaranteed one shot stop, can over penetrate what it hits, often not as wieldy as other options, etc.
One of the best per shot weapons when used right especially with ammo selection where something smaller then 00 is often better.
I've got 2 little ones and may need at least 1 free hand. Pistol for me. A HD shotgun is in the arsenal, though.
thespaceghost
12-02-11, 12:11
As an answer to orig question about 12 ga 00 buck, a very rough rule of thumb on 00 from an 18" shotgun spreads about one inch per yard out to about 15 yards (spreads a bit more after that..but will still put all 9 pellets on man target at 25).
Practice of course is a must with any gun/load. Most short barreled guns print high, so aiming in gut vs chest may be best sight picture.
Shotguns get overlooked in light of newer sexier AR's and penetration data, but they are and always have been devastating weapons that are dependable, easy to train with and shoot.
Some newer thoughts on it have included dropping to a 20 ga if size, penetration, recoil etc are at issue. They work just fine and can also be had in the Youth Model stocks that are easier for smaller people and if you happen to have a vest on.
Mall Ninja/Gunstore Commando "the sound of racking a shotgun" is ridiculous non-tactical drivel. If you want to make a fearsome sound you can always yell "I have called the police and I have a shotgun". Who is going to stick around to challenge that?
In close quarters, most shotguns to include even a $100 single shot are excellent home defense guns and probably easy to obtain and store in almost any jurisdiction (easier to get WIFECOM to sign off on too!.
Like any firearm they are not the be all end all for every situation...but if you have one, odds are you are going win.
As an answer to orig question about 12 ga 00 buck, a very rough rule of thumb on 00 from an 18" shotgun spreads about one inch per yard out to about 15 yards (spreads a bit more after that..but will still put all 9 pellets on man target at 25)..
Depending on the shotgun.
Dont assume that your 18" wil pattern the same as you buddys 18"
We covered a thread on here about a year ago, with pics, of different patterns through different shotguns.
The results were quite different
Other issues to consider...
What do YOU feel most comfortable with in defending your house/family? What gun are you more proficient using? Do you practice with a gun AND a light (for nighttime scenarios)? What gun might work best in your house? Does your house have lots of small rooms? Does it have rather large areas? Are the bedrooms close together or scattered around the house? Are there childrens' toys frequently laying all over the floor? What are the points of entry for a BG? Etc...
I have practiced going through my house at night, in the dark with both a shotgun and a pistol (seperately) using a flashlight and then with a weapon mounted light. I did this to see what worked better for the layout and physical postition of my architecture, furniture, and where points of entry (for the BD) would be. I noticed things such as MY safety and efficiency at moving around corners with each weapon, "slicing the pie" down hallways and from hallways, how to enter a room or even whether I should enter a room. This simple drill allows the user to see how to really handle armed movement in his home and where movement may be better handled by responding police and not at all by the homeowner, depending on the nature of the threat. Sometimes taking a defensive position or leaving the house ASAP is the best choice.
Things I learned about moving through my house in the dark trying to cover every realistic threat angle made me realize that that is a big job. Add to this trying to locate and protect family adds to the complexity of the problem.
Even doing this drill alone at home in the dark creates its own stress. The first couple times I did this I was amazed at how my heart rate was faster, my breathing quicker, and my senses seemed to be much more in tune to my environment. Imagine the stress of thinking there is a BG in your house!
A personal example of this: 22 years ago I was home alone at night. Old rental house, not the best neighborhood, 3 am. I knew my roommate was out of town and would NOT be returning. Noises from outside my bedroom awoke me. I woke with a start and lay there awhile trying to discern exactly what I was hearing. It certainly sounded like there was a someone or someones in my basement. I grabbed my 9 mm and carefully and quietly made my way out of my bedroom and through the upstairs level. I had to do this to get to the phone on the other side of the house. I slowly cleared each room on my way across this ground level of the house to reach the phone. I was happy there was nobody upstairs with me but the noises continued from the basement. One glance at the stairs leading to the basement door convinced me this was a 9-1-1 police job. I was NOT going downstairs! My heart rate was through the roof by this time. I called the police, they showed up in about 2 minutes (small town), I explained what I thought was happening and they took the lead. 2 big cops headed down stairs while 2 more searched the perimeter. No BGs found. What had happend was a small window had fallen in (or been pushed in?) the screen was torn (the window was large enough for a man to fit through btw) and two possums has taken to rough housing in my 70 year old unfinished basement. They were making quite a scene apparently when the cops entered the basement.
To conclude- I was happy there was no intruder, no threat, and the cops did what they did with professionalism and coutesy to me. However, I could not sleep the rest of the night as I could not calm down. Just the idea that there was someone in my house in the middle of the night was damn nerve racking.
I know people who HAVE had people break in to there home at night while they were there. Even years later it bothers them greatly. Have they changed their outlook on being a victim of a crime? Yes. Have they planned and prepared a little to combat this if it happens again? You bet your a$$ they have.
You said you want to use data to reach conclusions. I recommend you take all you learn from your "theoretical studies" and apply that to your own personal situation to gain the data you need for the job only you will be best at dealing with if and when the time comes. See for yourself what works best in a situation that will be unique to your home. This may help you choose a weapon and it will definately help you apply your ability to you need.
The shotgun can be and is a fantastic home defense choice. It could certainly not be the best choice, depending on too many variables to cover here. Only you will be able to determine what works best for your home environment.
My 2 cents is that a short barreled 12 ga pump loaded with 00 low recoil buckshot is perfect for my application. Perhaps it will be for you as well. Practice with the weapon, weapon and light, and shoot lots of rounds of your chosen load to see how it works out of your gun.
Best wishes!
In close quarters, most shotguns to include even a $100 single shot are excellent home defense guns and probably easy to obtain and store in almost any jurisdiction (easier to get WIFECOM to sign off on too!.
How is a weapon that needs to be reloaded after every single shot an excellent home defense weapon when you may be facing multiple attackers, may miss and need to fire another shot, or may need to fire another shot because the first one did not stop the attacker, or any combination of these?
Like any firearm they are not the be all end all for every situation...but if you have one, odds are you are going win.
Odds are, you are going to win? Exactly how did you reach this conclusion?
I'm always amazed at the people who think a single shot shotgun is a desirable defensive weapon. I had a neighbor that had one, and he thought it was just fine.
But if you consider a single shot .45 ACP handgun, or a single-shot AR-15, those same people would laugh.
GeorgiaBoy
12-02-11, 18:28
It has its place. My choice for a HD weapon has always been the carbine. Would I use a shotgun? Absolutely. But a carbine fits my needs better, and I train with it defensivly more. My shotguns, to me, are hunting tools, not as much HD tools.
If it was all I had, I wouldn't complain. Lets face it, one or 2 shots is generally all its going to take in a HD situation. You can come up with all the overblown and overexaggerated situations you wan't, but 95% of the time, your going to be facing only one or two attackers in your home. If you shoot just one, the rest are 95% of the time going to run. Thinking that a shotgun is a poor choice because of its limited 7-9 round capacity is rediculous in my opinion. The chances of actually having to use that many rounds is very unlikely in a HD scenario. Its not as if every home break-in is led by a 100 man army.
Now don't mistake what I just said to mean that I don't train to do reloads, or to engage multiple targets, ect. I'm just telling it how it is.
It has its place. My choice for a HD weapon has always been the carbine. Would I use a shotgun? Absolutely. But a carbine fits my needs better, and I train with it defensivly more. My shotguns, to me, are hunting tools, not as much HD tools.
If it was all I had, I wouldn't complain. Lets face it, one or 2 shots is generally all its going to take in a HD situation. You can come up with all the overblown and overexaggerated situations you wan't, but 95% of the time, your going to be facing only one or two attackers in your home. If you shoot just one, the rest are 95% of the time going to run. Thinking that a shotgun is a poor choice because of its limited 7-9 round capacity is rediculous in my opinion. The chances of actually having to use that many rounds is very unlikely in a HD scenario. Its not as if every home break-in is led by a 100 man army.
Now don't mistake what I just said to mean that I don't train to do reloads, or to engage multiple targets, ect. I'm just telling it how it is.
I totally agree. People conjure up all kinds of scenarios, but in the real historical world--
How many ordinary citizens in any self-defense situation have been killed because they ran out of ammo in a firefight?
For that matter, how many Police Officers have been killed when they ran out of ammo?
Even if multiple home invaders come in, they're not looking for a fight. Whack the first one with 00, the rest will be heading for the county line before you can shuck the slide again. Thugs don't practice small unit tactics, fire and maneuver, etc.
That's why I don't worry about running out of ammo in my HD shotgun. I keep five in the extended tube and don't worry about it. My ARs are unloaded and locked away.
On the road is a different story. A magazine-fed rifle makes a (marginally) better car gun than a shotgun, because of the ammo capacity issue. If you're broken down on a 2-lane road somewhere, and the Gang of Four swoops down, wouldn't hurt to have some extra shots at hand.
It has its place. My choice for a HD weapon has always been the carbine. Would I use a shotgun? Absolutely. But a carbine fits my needs better, and I train with it defensivly more. My shotguns, to me, are hunting tools, not as much HD tools.
If it was all I had, I wouldn't complain. Lets face it, one or 2 shots is generally all its going to take in a HD situation.
Do you really want to bet your life that one or two shots is all it is going to take in an HD situation?
You will be dealing with the same dangerous criminals who the police have to deal with. I don't see them issuing one or two shot weapons. So why would you want to limit yourself to one or two rounds if you had an option?
There are lots of documented cases of people successfully fighting back with firearms against multiple attackers that involved firing more than one or two shots.
Google the words Norman Laxson home invasion and read how a home invader attacked the homeowner and wrestled his gun away after his two criminal partners had been shot multiple times. The third man did not flee in fear, but attacked the homeowner and wrestled the gun away from the homeowner. Also notice that one of the homebreakers was shot multiple times by the defender. This is a good reason to have a weapon capable of firing more than one or two shots even if you are armed with a powerful weapon, and a good reason to shoot all of the criminals you are facing if they are in any position to offer any threat to you.
CumbiaDude
12-02-11, 23:07
On the road is a different story. A magazine-fed rifle makes a (marginally) better car gun than a shotgun, because of the ammo capacity issue.And because 00 buckshot is terrible at penetrating anything other than squishy personflesh.
Alaskapopo
12-02-11, 23:33
I totally agree. People conjure up all kinds of scenarios, but in the real historical world--
How many ordinary citizens in any self-defense situation have been killed because they ran out of ammo in a firefight?
For that matter, how many Police Officers have been killed when they ran out of ammo?
Even if multiple home invaders come in, they're not looking for a fight. Whack the first one with 00, the rest will be heading for the county line before you can shuck the slide again. Thugs don't practice small unit tactics, fire and maneuver, etc.
That's why I don't worry about running out of ammo in my HD shotgun. I keep five in the extended tube and don't worry about it. My ARs are unloaded and locked away.
On the road is a different story. A magazine-fed rifle makes a (marginally) better car gun than a shotgun, because of the ammo capacity issue. If you're broken down on a 2-lane road somewhere, and the Gang of Four swoops down, wouldn't hurt to have some extra shots at hand.
Actually their have been documented cases of police officers getting killed while reloading revolvers in the old days. More ammo is always better and never never never under estimate your opponents. Don't assume they are going to run off at the first sign of trouble. Hope for the best prepare for the worst and deal with what you get. A rifle is almost always a better tool because its more versatile. A good rifle/carbine works from muzzle distance out to 500 yards or more depending on your set up. A shotgun with slugs avaiable is a 0 to 100 yard weapon and in most peoples hands make that 50 yards. As an instructor I have seen far more failed shotgun courses than pistol or rifle. Its a harder gun to run and to stay proficient on.
Pat
5pointstar
12-03-11, 05:52
I do believe the Shotgun great weapon for defensive purposes. However you have to be intamitely familiar with your weapon and what ammo it perfers and how it patterns/groups at different distances. I dont think the Carbine is a better choice even for most LE agencies, specialized units excluded.
First consider your layout of your home, whether it will allow you to tote a shotgun through the hallways and rooms easily. The 2 most important things that will determine whether your weapon will do what you want is training/practice and shot placement.
I use a Glock 21 with a mounted light. If I'm not home I tell my wife if at all possible, barracade in a room with a shotgun. BG can take all he wants cause it's insured, but if he tries to come through that door knowing your there, the 12 gauge will do the trick.
As an answer to orig question about 12 ga 00 buck, a very rough rule of thumb on 00 from an 18" shotgun spreads about one inch per yard out to about 15 yards (spreads a bit more after that..but will still put all 9 pellets on man target at 25).
Practice of course is a must with any gun/load. Most short barreled guns print high, so aiming in gut vs chest may be best sight picture.
Shotguns get overlooked in light of newer sexier AR's and penetration data, but they are and always have been devastating weapons that are dependable, easy to train with and shoot.
Some newer thoughts on it have included dropping to a 20 ga if size, penetration, recoil etc are at issue. They work just fine and can also be had in the Youth Model stocks that are easier for smaller people and if you happen to have a vest on.
Mall Ninja/Gunstore Commando "the sound of racking a shotgun" is ridiculous non-tactical drivel. If you want to make a fearsome sound you can always yell "I have called the police and I have a shotgun". Who is going to stick around to challenge that?
In close quarters, most shotguns to include even a $100 single shot are excellent home defense guns and probably easy to obtain and store in almost any jurisdiction (easier to get WIFECOM to sign off on too!.
Like any firearm they are not the be all end all for every situation...but if you have one, odds are you are going win.
Shotguns are far from EASY to train with. Of the 3, it is the most difficult, tac reloads, ammo managment, and recoil from a pump for 6 hours will kick your ass.
I was surprised when I saw this answer by John Holschen some time ago but the more I thought about it the more what he says made sense:
http://insightstraining.com/blog/index.php/category/training-2/shotgun/
Of course, as evidenced by this thread, opinions differ on this.
GeorgiaBoy
12-03-11, 11:48
Do you really want to bet your life that one or two shots is all it is going to take in an HD situation?
You will be dealing with the same dangerous criminals who the police have to deal with. I don't see them issuing one or two shot weapons. So why would you want to limit yourself to one or two rounds if you had an option?
There are lots of documented cases of people successfully fighting back with firearms against multiple attackers that involved firing more than one or two shots.
Google the words Norman Laxson home invasion and read how a home invader attacked the homeowner and wrestled his gun away after his two criminal partners had been shot multiple times. The third man did not flee in fear, but attacked the homeowner and wrestled the gun away from the homeowner. Also notice that one of the homebreakers was shot multiple times by the defender. This is a good reason to have a weapon capable of firing more than one or two shots even if you are armed with a powerful weapon, and a good reason to shoot all of the criminals you are facing if they are in any position to offer any threat to you.
I was worried this would happen. Please don't confuse what I said as meaning I think only 1 or 2 rounds are nessecary. I am simply pointing out the fact that a very large amount of the time, you're simply not going to need 60+ rounds in a carbine in a home defense situation. Do I have 60 rounds at my disposable on my HD carbine? You bet your ass I do. I never want to be outgunned. But the fact of the matter is, the chances of you actually having to expend your whole magazine of 5.56, and reload, and expend that magazine on a simple home break-in is a far-reached reality. I'm not saying it can't happen, but its not very likely to happen.
If you look at defensive shootings you will find many where more than one or two rounds were fired.
I'm not sure that you will expend an entire 30 round mag of an AR, but I'd rather not bet at it.
"how much ammo do you need in a gunfight?" Pat Rogers often asks his class.
The answer is "all of it."
Even if multiple home invaders come in, they're not looking for a fight. Whack the first one with 00, the rest will be heading for the county line before you can shuck the slide again. Thugs don't practice small unit tactics, fire and maneuver, etc.
It's nice to know you can predict what badguys will and wont do.
You are attempting to script a gunfight. Facts are you dont know what badguy 1 is going to do, much less badguys 2, 3, 4, etc. While its true most badguys will run when a defense is presented, we dont train for most, we train for worst. Some dont train at all.
And yes, bad guys are known to practice fire and mauever techniques. There is a reason street gangs send members to our armed forces.
If it was all I had, I wouldn't complain. Lets face it, one or 2 shots is generally all its going to take in a HD situation. You can come up with all the overblown and overexaggerated situations you wan't, but 95% of the time, your going to be facing only one or two attackers in your home. If you shoot just one, the rest are 95% of the time going to run. Thinking that a shotgun is a poor choice because of its limited 7-9 round capacity is rediculous in my opinion. The chances of actually having to use that many rounds is very unlikely in a HD scenario. Its not as if every home break-in is led by a 100 man
Where did you get your figures? I men you use 95% so prominently, you're bound to have a source. What about the other 5%? Did the good guy know that the encounter was going to be worse than the other 95% had it?
CumbiaDude
12-03-11, 21:39
All this talk of how much you need reminds me of a saying in aviation.
The three most useless things in aviation: the runway behind you, the sky above you, and the fuel you didn't put in your tanks.
The same could be said about the rounds you don't have in your weapon (or the weapon you left in the safe, for our concealed carry people).
GeorgiaBoy
12-03-11, 22:16
I didn't write a college admission essay. I did not expect it to be hacked apart and analyzed. ;)
You've got to be realistic sometimes. The likelihood of actually being in a HD scenario is already rather unlikely, the chances of being adversaries with multiple, well trained bad guys in your home is even more unlikely. I'm not saying it can't happen, but is it LIKELY to happen? Generally not.
I'm not "scripting" a HD scenario. I'm
not saying that you only NEED 1 or 2 rounds in a HD scenario. I said you may only USE that many, and that I believed that the shotguns "limited" capacity of 6-8 rounds doesn't mean it should be dismissed as a viable defensive weapon.
Last time I checked, most home break-ins don't consist of a sustained firefight. Most every HD story I read about in the paper or media is quick and short, with few shots fired.
Do you remember that viral video a few years ago where FOUR guys ran into a house armed with M4's that all ran like deer once the home owner opened fire? They were substantially armed, but they fled at the first sign of danger.
Once again I'm NOT saying you don't need a lot of rounds, I'm saying you probably won't USE that many.
Shotgun for HD? It depends.
Our primary duty weapons are nicely accessorized 870s, with G21 /TLR-1 as a backup. We train extensively in shooting on the move, unit tactics, building entry & room clearing.
I liked that shotgun setup so much that I put together a duplicate for my personal weapon. If the door crashes in, I'd like to meet them with my shotgun.
The only problem is that my wife can't handle the shotgun very well & she thinks my AR's are too complicated, but she loves shooting the AK's, so there's a AK 74 with a 30 round mag inserted hanging on the bedroom door & the 870 is in the safe.
Life's a compromise.
I didn't write a college admission essay. I did not expect it to be hacked apart and analyzed. ;)
You've got to be realistic sometimes. The likelihood of actually being in a HD scenario is already rather unlikely, the chances of being adversaries with multiple, well trained bad guys in your home is even more unlikely. I'm not saying it can't happen, but is it LIKELY to happen? Generally not.
By your logic we shouldnt use anything for home defense because it is unlikely. But we do because there is a chance. As long as we are preparing for that scenario we might as well plan for the 5% percent (according to your figures) that are worst case.
I'm not "scripting" a HD scenario. I'm
not saying that you only NEED 1 or 2 rounds in a HD scenario. I said you may only USE that many, and that I believed that the shotguns "limited" capacity of 6-8 rounds doesn't mean it should be dismissed as a viable defensive weapon.
I didnt say you did. But while we are on the subject, there is no way to know how many rounds will be needed. You can use previous shooting as a measuring stick, but until it happens, you cant say for certain.
Last time I checked, most home break-ins don't consist of a sustained firefight. Most every HD story I read about in the paper or media is quick and short, with few shots fired.
When was the last time you checked? How many articles go over the timelines and round count? Is it the sameplace you found the figures in your previous post?
Do you remember that viral video a few years ago where FOUR guys ran into a house armed with M4's that all ran like deer once the home owner opened fire? They were substantially armed, but they fled at the first sign of danger.
I remember it well. I remember that he fired more than 1 or 2 rounds, and more than 8-9. I remember that they fired during their withdrawal. I also know the website keepandbeararms.com has plenty of instance where bad guys stood their ground in the face of gunfire. In fact many more than the 5% you claim.
Once again I'm NOT saying you don't need a lot of rounds, I'm saying you probably won't USE that many.
I get that, but its not anything you can say with any degree of certainty.
Seems to me that pretty much everyone has accepted some cut off point of what should be the level or preparedness/what we bring to the table. Otherwise we would all have helmets and rifle plates, sleep in fortified/reinforced bedrooms, take shifts of watch duty, security perimeter, pair or more of trained attack dogs, etc. Instead we have constant topics of "so there was this noob at the range with a chest rig...", "why does anyone need rifle plates?", etc.
That said and even though most of the time you can get away with a J-frame with no reloads we go with more for those lower chance events. Has to be a point though where a person is just naturally satisfied with their odds or life would just be shitty.
If someone is more on a budget, talented with using one, or what ever then a shotgun isn't a shabby choice although that 1%- chance of needing more rounds is there. I think other issues like time to do a followup shot (not getting into if you train out the ass) would play a more important role with the issues of not having all day to safely blast away until you hit.
I've seen some amazing stats before where something like 90% of self defense events don't even fire a shot to resolve, of those left the average shots fired is 3, etc. There are multiple flaws of course, as an example that 90% thing was derived from a self reporting tele survey. I am guessing though that the 95% thing is from Magpul Dynamics and not some statistic related to chance of actual shots fired in self defense.
blasternank
12-04-11, 15:58
Use bird shot in it.
Thomas M-4
12-04-11, 16:06
Use bird shot in it.
Birdshot is for the birds.
I would never by choice use birdshot if I had an alternative choice.
StrikerFired
12-04-11, 16:21
Shotguns are far from EASY to train with. Of the 3, it is the most difficult, tac reloads, ammo managment, and recoil from a pump for 6 hours will kick your ass.
I couldn't agree more!!! Shotguns are most certainly for the thinking man. If you can't run the gun, manage your ammo, and be able to change out ammo in the gun, I would reconsider making it your primary HD tool. Don't take my word for it (or anyone else's for that matter) get out there and take a Shotgun course from just about any good school and after six or so hours of running a SG you will think twice about it...
decodeddiesel
12-04-11, 17:56
Use bird shot in it.
FAIL
Do NOT attempt to use bird shot on a human being intent on killing you and expect it to work.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958
https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91
If you don't know WTF you are talking about it is far better to simply refrain from posting and just read.
I agree that most times it is a lone intruder, but sometimes it can be more than one.
This discussion reminded me of a story I read awhile back about Lance Thomas. Here is a link to it.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/
That said and even though most of the time you can get away with a J-frame with no reloads we go with more for those lower chance events. Has to be a point though where a person is just naturally satisfied with their odds or life would just be shitty.
With the J frame we have the issue of size and concealment--typically in a situation where you have to carry it and are limited by size and dress constraints. For home defense concealment size is not an issue.
I've seen some amazing stats before where something like 90% of self defense events don't even fire a shot to resolve, of those left the average shots fired is 3, etc. There are multiple flaws of course, as an example that 90% thing was derived from a self reporting tele survey. I am guessing though that the 95% thing is from Magpul Dynamics and not some statistic related to chance of actual shots fired in self defense.
Exactly where does this figure come from? I've seen lots of accounts of shootings where more than one or two rounds were fired.
Some of the philosophy I am reading here is the same that supports buying an Olympic brand AR because it is 'good enough.'
Some of the views in this thread are sounding like those from less competant boards, where posters assert that just pumping a shotgun is enough to send any homebreakers running.
crusader377
12-04-11, 20:40
I think one point in this debate that has been missing is the large cost difference between a shotgun and carbine. Like it or not most people who want a home defense firearm probably don't have $800-$1000 for a quality AR. In contrast, you can buy a remington 870 for $325-$350 and one can buy a used remington or possibly a new Mossberg 12ga for around $250. Shotguns are proven to be an effective weapon with devasting stopping power if you use the right ammunition.
I do think a quality M4 is a better HD weapon than a shotgun but for the price, shotguns can't be beat.
I think one point in this debate that has been missing is the large cost difference between a shotgun and carbine. Like it or not most people who want a home defense firearm probably don't have $800-$1000 for a quality AR. In contrast, you can buy a remington 870 for $325-$350 and one can buy a used remington or possibly a new Mossberg 12ga for around $250. Shotguns are proven to be an effective weapon with devasting stopping power if you use the right ammunition.
You are correct about the cost differences--plus there are some places where an AR is heavily restricted.
I don't have a problem with people who want to use a shotgun for home defense, only those that think one or two shots will be enough--like one person who claimed a single shot shotgun was fine for home defense.
One or two shots *may* be enough, but factor in possible misses, attackers who need to be shot more than once, and multiple attackers and it's easy to see why you may need more than one or two shots.
Worst of all, expecting one or two shots to be enough is a loosing mindset, since if one or two shots is not enough you can be caught unprepared, frozen.
Any decent instructor stresses followthrough, being ready to fire additional shots if needed, or as Pat MacNamara says, "check your work through your sights."
Expecting to end a lethal force situation by firing one or two shots is not conductive to your survival.
Selecting a shotgun, that only holds one or two shots to go into a lifethreatening situation when there are better alternatives is moronic.
You are correct about the cost differences--plus there are some places where an AR is heavily restricted.
I don't have a problem with people who want to use a shotgun for home defense, only those that think one or two shots will be enough--like one person who claimed a single shot shotgun was fine for home defense.
One or two shots *may* be enough, but factor in possible misses, attackers who need to be shot more than once, and multiple attackers and it's easy to see why you may need more than one or two shots.
Worst of all, expecting one or two shots to be enough is a loosing mindset, since if one or two shots is not enough you can be caught unprepared, frozen.
Any decent instructor stresses followthrough, being ready to fire additional shots if needed, or as Pat MacNamara says, "check your work through your sights."
Expecting to end a lethal force situation by firing one or two shots is not conductive to your survival.
Selecting a shotgun, that only holds one or two shots to go into a lifethreatening situation when there are better alternatives is moronic.
Ed has said what needs to be said.
Closing this one before it goes off the rails any further.
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