View Full Version : can anybody clear up a Larue rumor for me
davemcdonald
08-20-06, 09:21
A buddy told me that he read on the everybodyisanexpertnet that Larue is going to start anodizing his mounts and rails in tan like Troy is currently doing.
I would have called BS because I haven't heard a peep about this but Mark Larue is always up front leading the industry so it may be possible. I don't want to call LT and bother them over something so trivial and on the other hand it is Sunday and they are closed:D
Has anybody else read or heard this?
If this allegation is true the effects on my bank account could be devastating.
Dave
Flat Dark Earth is the new black.
Krylon: The ORIGINAL anodized finish.
Amen Brother.... if it were not for krylon, I would go broke every time a new color comes out... hell... I'm still trying to get caught up with ranger green and now they have Foliage green......:eek: I can't even contemplate Flat Dark Earth......:D
baffle Stack
08-20-06, 16:43
comment removed
K.L. Davis
08-20-06, 18:26
AFAIK...
FDE is not an option with Type III HCA
So... I don't imagine that many folks really care -- unless there is a FDE that is not Type II? That is a better question ;)
AFAIK...
FDE is not an option with Type III HCA
So... I don't imagine that many folks really care -- unless there is a FDE that is not Type II? That is a better question ;)
From what I understand it is possible to Type III HCA in many colors other than black, but the trick is consistency and color accuracy. Troy's is TypeIII HCA. I talked to their tech guy about it this past Thursday.
Stephen
I will be talking to Mark tomorrow, I'll ask him and post his response here.
So can the super high speed M4C crew answer the question or should Dave ask this on everyonesanexpert.com?
Having a bad day huh?
K.L. Davis
08-20-06, 19:16
From what I understand it is possible to Type III HCA in many colors other than black, but the trick is consistency and color accuracy. Troy's is TypeIII HCA. I talked to their tech guy about it this past Thursday.
Stephen
Interesting... it is easy to test to see if it meets the requirement -- I'll see if I can get a sample to test and find out for sure.
davemcdonald
08-20-06, 19:38
I do not know the difference between Type II and Type III. I was kinda hoping for a less technical answer to my question. Maybe something along the lines of yes or no but I am always catching heat for being too demanding.
Dave
K.L. Davis
08-20-06, 19:49
Type III HCA requires a higher voltage application (50 volts plus) and in the past has left the parts treated with a dark gray finish that would not dye to lighter colors. The dye normally is black, but sometimes ends up a purple or dark brown, of course there are dark grays as well.
Type II anodizing is a clear finish that takes lighter colors well, but is not nearly as hard or as *thick* of a finish... military weapons parts would require a Type III HCA finish.
The suggestion to use Krylon is not really a bad answer... the bottom line is that if someone is doing a Type III HCA in FDE and it proves to hold up to UV light over time, then soon everyone that makes parts will offer the option. LT makes good stuff, I don't see Mark adding something that is lesser quality only because of the bling factor though. So, I don't think anyone is going to run out and replace parts with Coyote, Dark Earth or Dysentery Green for that matter, just to change colors -- all black is the hands-down worse color your rifle can be and folks spray paint all sorts of gear to match the AO, have for years... heck, my first set of camo was spray painted :D
It's safe to assume that with this business being as competitive as it is once one company tries it, they will all do it eventually.
It's only a matter of time.
KAC has done a number of guns in color annodizing -- some from pimp gold
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v193/EvilKev/IMG_1589a.jpg
to the more recent ones that seem to work.
I understood Troy's FDE offering to be MIL-SPEC type III
I do not know the difference between Type II and Type III. I was kinda hoping for a less technical answer to my question. Maybe something along the lines of yes or no but I am always catching heat for being too demanding.
Dave
Dave,
Type III is "hard" anodizing, a much more durable finish than Type II; hence MIL-spec requirements typically demand hard anodizing.
AR parts is a competitive business. LaRue is at the top of the heap, but to maintain their competitiveness, there are some things that Mark may not want put out on open forums. I suggest that you contact him directly, if you have a need to know. He's a stand-up guy and will be the best source.
baffle Stack
08-20-06, 21:50
comment removed
Sorry for the rant Dave, It was not my intention to spam your thread. I too would love FDE LaRue gear.
Cybin, consider this a warning.
Take that crap some place else. Please feel free to go any place you wish to get your answers. I'm sure a nice ten page thread worth squat will be the result.
davemcdonald
08-20-06, 23:17
Aubrey
Thanks for the quick block of information. I have a hard time staying focused while reading mil-spec-ese. They start talking about surface hardness and salt spray tests I loose all ability to retain inforamtion. Kinda like when my wife starts talking about decorating the bedroom....again...my brain goes into reset mode.
Dave
I go back to school tomarrow:mad: but thats not the reason. I just find it weird that this place prides itself as being so much more profesional then ARF, yet the three replys to Dave's questions were about as useful as a +1. (In case anyone cares I hate intro posts too;) )
Sorry for the rant Dave, It was not my intention to spam your thread. I too would love FDE LaRue gear.
Well to answer you maybe no one knows! How can someone answer if they do not know? Makes sense right!
Not sure where you get the pride aspect. The posters here are a good group of guys, why try and put them down? Maybe you should read more and learn something. Maybe they wish to pass on what they have learned.
Robb Jensen
08-21-06, 04:52
Cybin,
Logic would tell you to get the info directly from the horses mouth.
If you have a phone at your school or home call Larue, I've even spoken to Mark on the phone a few times.
posted on Larues website:
Larue Tactical contact info.
# Call us at: 512.259.1585
# Open Monday-Friday 8am-5pm Central Standard Time (Closed holidays and weekends)
# Any other times, please leave a voice mail and we will return your call promptly.
# Via email: sales@laruetactical.com
# Fax: 512.259.1588
# Austin Precision Products
850 CR 177
Leander, TX 78641
Don't come here to bash members of this forum because we can't pull a rabbit out of a hat.
I will echo K.L. Davis' remarks regarding Type III anodizing. The process itself causes the substrate (aluminum base) to turn a medium to dark grey (the same finish you see on Surefire lights) - trying to color in FDE over this usually ends up in a darker olive or brown color.
I'm working on getting details of the processes / companies that can hard anodize in FDE.
To the point of this thread however: I have seen and handled Larue mounts in FDE, so they do in fact exist. Whether Larue will market them widespread is a question better answered by the company, methinks...
Stay safe,
Clint
baffle Stack
08-21-06, 12:53
Cybin,
Logic would tell you to get the info directly from the horses mouth.
If you have a phone at your school or home call Larue, I've even spoken to Mark on the phone a few times.
posted on Larues website:
Larue Tactical contact info.
# Call us at: 512.259.1585
# Open Monday-Friday 8am-5pm Central Standard Time (Closed holidays and weekends)
# Any other times, please leave a voice mail and we will return your call promptly.
# Via email: sales@laruetactical.com
# Fax: 512.259.1588
# Austin Precision Products
850 CR 177
Leander, TX 78641
Don't come here to bash members of this forum because we can't pull a rabbit out of a hat.
Hey guys I apologize, My commets were childish.
I was going to make the same comments about the Surefire HAIII color. Basically, it is what it is. Other types of anodizing like they do for keychains, paintball guns, etc. that are really bright are very weak and just add the dye to the surface of the metal. HA type III does much more, exactly what, I'm not at liberty to discuss! :D
K.L. Davis
08-21-06, 13:32
Hey guys I apologize, My commets were childish.
Adolescentem verecundum esse decet.
Thanks Cybin...
Hoplophile
08-21-06, 13:45
HA type III does much more, exactly what, I'm not at liberty to discuss! :D
Not at liberty to discuss or just don't want to take the time to say that it converts the surface from aluminum (soft) to rather hard aluminum oxide (hard)?
[buzzer noise] Wrong. Just didn't know for sure and didn't want to say the wrong thing! :)
I spoke with Mark today. He told me at this time they are only producing orders for SF/military groups. There is not enough demand for him to produce them for the civi market yet.
baffle Stack
08-21-06, 23:54
Thanks Boom. Thats good news. Anyone have a picture?
militarymoron
08-22-06, 01:30
i'd be very interested in seeing an independant verification that the anodizing in FDE is indeed type III (at least .002" thick) and not II.
SinnFéinM1911
08-22-06, 07:35
I would to, BUT I know it IS infact Type III Class 2 Hard Coat Anodize. And it comply's or exceeds Mil-A-8625. If you would like to learn more about this process goto this site and search the document.
http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/
K.L. Davis
08-22-06, 07:46
Here is the deal... any number of shops can do this, it is a Type II procedure with Type III results -- I won't get into the exact hows and stuff, but they use a Type II setup running at the higher temps and lower voltage (some additive to the bath) and they get a Type III finish that can be dyed light colors.
Those that do not like the practice and thick it is a hack, call it Type II.5 -- those that advocate it, call it the new way of doing Type III... I am told that while it is not as hard as Type III can be, it will certify to Type III finish/surface tests -- and that is the bottom line.
eta: I am not saying that this is what anyone of the above mentioned venders is using, just that it is possible.
SinnFéinM1911
08-22-06, 08:10
I asked that specific question to them, and they told me no, that is not how it is done. The engineers and on staff scientists have been working on this process for a little over 2.5 years to perfect his process. I am not saying what you had mentioned is wrong, but I guess even they can be wrong.
KL - btw did u get my PM with my cell's ?
All manufacturers would have to be doing it the same way to get the exact same FDE color results, wouldn't they? How strict is the FDE color requirements? Aren't they pretty "narrow" where there are only a few shades either way a product can go before it fails like the KAC "Pimp Gold?"
SinnFéinM1911
08-22-06, 08:27
I would have to disagree. There are different ways to get results. If you are innovative enough, you can come up with your own proprietary process to come up with a better result. That is what sometimes leads to Patents on processes or ideas on products.
NO anodize process is perfect, even with black. There is a "Target" color, but you also have a +/- 1.5% on the shade, because it is IMPOSSIBLE to match a anodize perfectly every time. With a bunch of manufacturers you will notice with Black (which most try to compare it to) there are many shades for the same products from a gray to a almost purple tint.
davemcdonald
08-22-06, 09:05
Does Eotech use HCA III on the new 553?
Dave
BTW Thanks guys this is turning out to be quite the learning experience for me.
K.L. Davis
08-22-06, 09:58
Brett -
I talked to one of the shops doing the process this morning. I guess it is all symantics, but what I got from them is that there are two things that are *different* from "conventional" Type III: One is that the temp of the bath is higher, more like that of a traditional Type II call out, and the other is additives to the bath. Like the guy told me, the end justifies the means and if it comes out certified as Type III, then how they did it does not matter -- and they told me that they have done quite a bit of work certified as MilSpec Type III.
Of course the process that he told me about is a few years old and I am sure that there are other ways to skin a cat...
Roger on the numbers... I'll give you a call later today
SuicideHz -
The dyes are as much an art (it seems) as the process... they can be effected by UV light and chemicals, the colors shift and fade and there will be some difference from batch to batch -- it seems that like most things, there is as much art as there is science to this, but I am told that a pretty exact color match is possible (of course, there is a fee for dye mixing).
SinnFéinM1911
08-22-06, 10:01
Roger - Ill be around like a doughnut !
I was hoping coldblue would chime in on KAC's methodology.
I know the "Pimp Gold" as I call it started as Coyote and until it was covered in CLP it did look coyote -- however for whatever reason it did not like solvents and turned in a shiny gold color.
Recent versions are a much closer FDE match - how they have done this I do not know.
I have had some AR lowers and uppers done by a shop that does the "II.5" method -- seems to work more to follow on that when the project is done.
Does Eotech use HCA III on the new 553?
Dave
BTW Thanks guys this is turning out to be quite the learning experience for me.
Yes we do- both the black and FDE versions.
militarymoron
08-22-06, 14:58
well, if a method is available to a FDE finish that meets type III requirements, that's all that counts - the ends do justify the means.
i'm just interested from a technical standpoint how it's done.
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