View Full Version : All purpose 12.5" combat rifle
Eurodriver
12-02-11, 17:27
I must mention that this rifle is a direct descendent of the ideas and concepts I have learned from markm and pappabear in their 12.5" Long Range Suppressed Precision thread.
The purpose of this rifle is to do as much of everything while sacrificing as little as possible, literally a general purpose or all purpose rifle. I wanted the ability to reach out passed 500 yards while still being able to engage targets effectively in tight spaces where weight and length are big penalties. This meant the weapon had to be lightweight, short, agile, and accurate. I also wanted simple. Simple is good.
The compents are:
BCM 12.5" SS410 Barrel: Everyone here knows that BCM shares the top spot with Noveske and a few others when it comes to accurate, reliable stainless steel barrels. I chose BCM because of the availability in an assembled upper and the price.
DD OmegaX 7" Rail: Out of everything on this upper, this took the most time to decide. Free float was a must for accuracy. My last upper had a Centurion Arms rail on it, which I really like and will use again. However the OmegaX rail is actually lighter than the Centurion rail, it has the same features (sling QD points) and was available from BCM already assembled. In hindsight, I probably should have gone with a Centurion 9" FSP cutout rail but I am totally content with this. I can always change it in the future.
Larue Index Clips - The best rail covering product on the market. I refuse to use anything else. I no longer feel like I am grabbing a baseball bat when holding on to a rifle with a rail panel. These are extremely low profile but are much more ergonomic than the Magpul ladder covers.
BCM Gunfighter CH Mod4 - Again, the best on the market. It is all I will use. Makes manipulating the bolt extremely easy and smooth.
TA31 ACOG - Using the TA31 I was able to take advantage of the range I was seeking as well as the capability to engage targets at closer ranges as well. I have extensive training and time behind a TA31 so I thought it was a perfect fit. Also, I am a fan of KISS on fighting rifles. I did not want to mess with a 1-4x variable or a flip-to-side mount for an Aimpoint magnifier. The ACOG has its flaws, but it was the best for what I wanted to do.
I chose a Magpul CTR and MIAD grip because I like the ergonomics of both and having a QD sling point on the stock was necessary.
The lower is an LMT Defender: Proven reliability and quality, plus its SBR'd so I didn't have a choice.
All that is left to do is get a rear BUIS and an AAC Blackout FH. This will be ran with an M4-2000. I will also get a Surefire M300 in a new IWC/Travis Haley light mount. This new mount is what sold me on the OmegaX. Before, I refused to run 7" rails because mounting anything on them would mess with my grip. This new light mount changes that.
This rifle is extremely lightweight for having a stainless steel barrel and is very maneuverable. Compared to my 10.3" it feels only slightly heavier, maybe 5 or 6 ounces. I will eventually get it on a scale.
I am going to pick up some 77gr ammo and stretch its legs coming up next week. I will get my hold over for an effective 550 yard hit and then do some work at closer ranges. I have done alot of shooting with my 14.5" BCM Midlength wearing a TA31 as well, so I can only imagine my CQB work will be easier with the lighter and shorter 12.5"
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2672/1020034f.jpg
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/234/1020032.jpg
Sweet!!
A 12.5" is next on my list. I cant wait.
Very nice man, congrats!
SeriousStudent
12-02-11, 18:10
This is a very interesting concept, and something I have been mulling over as well. BCM and Noveske are also the folks I was looking at. I love the idea of a Switchblock, but have been highly pleased with the BCM carbines I have bought.
I'd be really interested in the final weight when you are done.
Have you picked what kind of rear BUIS you want? It's not meant as a smartastic remark. I know some folks that want to rely on the "ghost ring" effect of an absolute cowitness T-1 and a FSB.
Very interesting concept for a carbine! I'll really be fascinated to see how it handles with the M4-2000. I've got a UBR laying around if I need it to balance out the can on the front.
Looks awesome, great job! A 12.5 build is also on my list of guns in the near future. Let us know how it shoots!
Looks like 12.5s will be the pick of 2012....
Looking into a 12.5 with a 10" RIS II.
Looks like 12.5s will be the pick of 2012....
Looking into a 12.5 with a 10" RIS II.
Lol thats what I was thinking!
Im going with a Centurion though. 10".
I was gonna go 10.5" but so many people have them and I want something to fill the gap of my 11.5" and M4
12.5" Kino with 10" Centurion rail.
10402
This ^^^
I dont think Im goin with a FSP. Maybe.
IG was the one that sold me on the Centurion a few months back.
Eurodriver
12-02-11, 19:07
This ^^^
I dont think Im goin with a FSP. Maybe.
IG was the one that sold me on the Centurion a few months back.
Me too.
IG, is that a 10" or 9" rail?
Eurodriver
12-02-11, 19:15
Its a 10"
Its a Kino
I was under the impression that kino configurations pin the FSP in the mid-length spot, therefore faciliating a 9" rail.
Edit: and unless my eyes are deceiving me, my 9" Centurion rail has the exact same number of slots that his 10" rail has.
Looks like a 9" to me. The FSP is exactly in the midlength position on the Kino config, so it would have to be a 9" rail.
12.5" Kino with 10" Centurion rail.
10402
It says 10"
Youre right about the Kino taking a Midlength handguard though.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-12-5-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-12%20kd.htm
I do believe IG made a mistake. Go to Centurion's website and you'll see that he has the 9" rail, not the 10".
Thats what I did haha.
I wish they would hurry up with their 11"!!
Im gonna go with the 10" for now, maybe it will be out before I finish the build
I do believe IG made a mistake.".
I think he had a typo cause of what he read in the post directly above his lol.
That would be Corys FAULT!!
Good job Cory!
Looks like 12.5s will be the pick of 2012....
Looking into a 12.5 with a 10" RIS II.
Centurion 12.5" with 9.5" RIS II. If I were to do it again, I'd get a Noveske 12.5" Crusader barrel with switchblock, a normal MK 18 RIS II and mill out a section for the SB like how Noveske has it. It allows 1 or 2 slots in front of the cutout to mount a fold down sight.
Nice build EuroDriver, I plan on putting a 1-4x on mine.
http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m127/johnson_n/IMG_1815-1.jpg
I regret not going with the 12.5 kino, but I already had the handguard, which combined with the already higher price of the kino was a substantial savings. I guess in the end it all works out. I may have a little more leeway on suppressors, if I ever decide to buy one for a rifle.
I think he had a typo cause of what he read in the post directly above his lol.
That would be Corys FAULT!!
Good job Cory!
Do you work with me or something? This is what all my co workers always tell me!
I want to do at least a 10". I have never been a fan of the standard FSP. I can't really tell you why.
I will add that I have been seeing a lot of guys running their front sight up (flip up) or a FSP lately.
Cory, I just wanted to clarify that the MK18 RIS II is 9.5", not 10".
Cory, I just wanted to clarify that the MK18 RIS II is 9.5", not 10".
I stand corrected. I thought that the MK18 was a 9.5 and they had a RIS II 10 and 12 also (like the Lite Rails). Maybe I will just go with the 12.25 if the muzzle device will still thread on. I am looking for something similar to the RIS II because the bottom rail is tucked in closer to the barrel which will eliminate the need for a front grip. I may be able to get away with just a handstop.
I had both the TRX standard and TRX extreme on my 12.5 BCM upper. Prefer the TRX Extreme. They are both 11in in length, and the extra inch is nice. Puts the front sight out that much farther allowing my to grip how I want..... Cause I run a 15in TRX extreme on my 16in 3gun rifle which is also a BCM(SS410).
My toys(same 12.5 just different rails)
Current and how I'm keeping it rail wise setup
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/2eaf7ccc.jpg
When I first got it
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/f0d8b6e4.jpg
And the 3gun rifle with 15in TRX
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y201/paintballaddict/photo-2.jpg
I stand corrected. I thought that the MK18 was a 9.5 and they had a RIS II 10 and 12 also (like the Lite Rails). Maybe I will just go with the 12.25 if the muzzle device will still thread on. I am looking for something similar to the RIS II because the bottom rail is tucked in closer to the barrel which will eliminate the need for a front grip. I may be able to get away with just a handstop.
I hope the OP doesn't mind me piggy-backing onto his thread.
My go-to HD carbine is a 12.5" SBR. The upper is all BCM with the addition of a DD RISII FSP handguard. The muzzle device is a Surefire CAM4FA556. It launches Mk318 Mod0 at 2790fps, give or take.
It's light, easy to maneuver, and still manageable with the suppressor attached.
http://personal.visualitymedia.com/personal/ar15/556risiifsp_1050.jpg
Eurodriver
12-02-11, 22:43
I enjoyed seeing all the kinos...
But I do not have a kino.
Maybe we can try to keep this thread along the lines of SS barrels on SBRs and accuracy, ballistics, optics etc in regards to the 12.5" barrel length as opposed to rail length.
Or maybe since you titled the thread "All purpose 12.5" combat rifle", we do just that and include all 12.5" rifles, like my kino (which I'll have to post a picture of tomorrow. :mad: ) ;)
A 12.5" is something I've been pondering too ;) Only thing I would like to know is how is the muzzle blast compared to a 10.5" and 14.5" since its right in the middle? Would the blast be right in between the two?
And yes I know the blast has alot to do with the muzzle device, but lets assume you are using a standard A2 here...
My pesky Gemtech is always in the way of the muzzle blast, so I really can't help. :p
Seriously, I've never noticed anything different about the muzzle flash other than that IMHO it is way closer to a 14.5 then a 10.5 when using the gemtech A2 bilock.
I dont see alot of difference between a 16" and 12.5"
I got to shoot one a couple times.
11.5" is a little different, thats because I have a B.C on it.
I havent shot it with the A2 on yet.
I may be swapping them out soon...just to see
My bad. I had it confused with my other one which is a 10". This is a 9" rail.
I was under the impression that kino configurations pin the FSP in the mid-length spot, therefore faciliating a 9" rail.
Edit: and unless my eyes are deceiving me, my 9" Centurion rail has the exact same number of slots that his 10" rail has.
Let's not invade Euros' thread. Sorry man. :(
Maybe we can try to keep this thread along the lines of SS barrels on SBRs and accuracy, ballistics, optics etc in regards to the 12.5" barrel length as opposed to rail length.
I would love to hear the TRUE pros and cons of SS barrels on SBRs.
Ya sorry Euro.
Congrats on your build man!
Let us know how it shoots!!
Euro,
I am looking forward to hearing your feedback on the BCM SS barrel. I currently have a Kino upper (I've since pulled the faux FSB and installed a DD MFR rail) but I made the mistake of shooting with some guys from work who are very into precision shooting and were running SS barrels on their guns. I held my own out to about 400 yards but am always looking to tweak my set up.
I'm now considering swapping over to either a Noveske Crusader or the BCM barrel you're running. Anyway, your rifle looks very well thought out and a hell of a lot of fun.
sorry about my earlier post man,
Do you have a weight on your 12.5 upper alone with all the accessories. More then once you guys mentioned the word "light." My upper with ampoint t-1 and scout light weigh just slightly lighter than my SS 16" upper.
thanks
Eurodriver
12-03-11, 06:41
A 12.5" is something I've been pondering too ;) Only thing I would like to know is how is the muzzle blast compared to a 10.5" and 14.5" since its right in the middle? Would the blast be right in between the two?
And yes I know the blast has alot to do with the muzzle device, but lets assume you are using a standard A2 here...
I may be taking it out today, I will let you know. I'm going to run an AAC Blackout on it eventually but I imagine that will only reduce the blast from the A2 even further.
I would love to hear the TRUE pros and cons of SS barrels on SBRs.
I think its tricky, there are very few cons (other than a bit of extra weight) but the real issue is that if you're not really going to shoot for distance (which judging by the amount of non-magnified optics in this thread, I'd say most don't) and you expect high round counts in rapid succession, you really don't need a stainless steel barrel so most would be better served with a chrome lined barrel which saves weight and money. There used to be the issue with barrel life, but with modern, quality SS barrels I don't feel that is an issue anymore.
Or maybe since you titled the thread "All purpose 12.5" combat rifle", we do just that and include all 12.5" rifles, like my kino (which I'll have to post a picture of tomorrow. :mad: ) ;)
You are free to discuss whatever aspects of whatever rifle you want here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=5)
You are free to discuss whatever aspects of whatever rifle you want here. (https://www.m4carbine.net/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=5)
Feel free to retitle your thread, devil dog. So much for Marines helping Marines and Marines talking about guns.
If the accuracy from your 12.5 SS410 is anything like my 16in SS410, your gonna be AMAZED. With a 1-4x24 Burris XTR @ 100yds and my 69gr SMK handload(24.5gr of Varget traveling at 2550fps) its keeping a 1-1.25in group. Not shabby for being topped with a 1-4.
I'm real curious to see what your 12.5 can do. How far out can you shoot?
Eurodriver
12-03-11, 11:42
If the accuracy from your 12.5 SS410 is anything like my 16in SS410, your gonna be AMAZED. With a 1-4x24 Burris XTR @ 100yds and my 69gr SMK handload(24.5gr of Varget traveling at 2550fps) its keeping a 1-1.25in group. Not shabby for being topped with a 1-4.
I'm real curious to see what your 12.5 can do. How far out can you shoot?
I can only shoot on paper out to 565, but steel gongs are available at 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000.
I don't handload, so I am going to buy a bunch of match .223/5.56 and see what works best. I'd imagine for anything passed 600 I will need the heaviest bullets available, but I'm curious if I can also go really light and get a flat shooting round to go far as well.
Try some of Hornady's Superformance 53gr's. From what Trident has said, they are extremely flat shooting.
Eurodriver
01-10-12, 11:59
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6339/rightr.jpg
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9461/leftkt.jpg
Here is the finished product.
Very nice Euro! What is the total length as it sits with the stock where you run the gun?
Good looking rifle. I believe there will be a 12.5 in my future.
Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk
SeriousStudent
01-11-12, 20:52
Very nice build, it looks quite efficient.
Keep up up to date on your accuracy results, it's of interest to a lot of us.
Eurodriver
01-12-12, 07:14
Very nice Euro! What is the total length as it sits with the stock where you run the gun?
By no means scientific, I may be +/- 0.5"
32" unsuppressed
36" with the suppressor mounted
I was surprised that the M4-2000 only added 4" past the muzzle device. I had always assumed that since it says on AAC's site it adds 5.10" to the weapon they meant after the flash hider.
I measured twice and I still can't believe it only added 4"
Eurodriver
01-12-12, 07:24
Very nice build, it looks quite efficient.
Keep up up to date on your accuracy results, it's of interest to a lot of us.
Thanks. Efficient is an excellent way to describe it. It is long enough to take advantage of a magnified optic, but short enough to be maneuverable with a suppressor attached. Its got a stainless steel midweight barrel to help with accuracy downrange, but the barrel is short enough not to weigh a ton. Its not perfect at anything, but its great at everything. To top it off, there is almost no noticable POI shift with the suppressor on or off.
I'll stick this in here while its at the top:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=96280
Here is a 300 yard group with Hornady 53gr Superperformance
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/6733/300y125.jpg
Here are two separate 10 shot groups (suppressed and unsuppressed) at 565 yards
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/6797/2ndgroup565.jpg
Here is a 5 shot group at 300 yards with Hornady 75gr
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/337/300y2.jpg
I think I will stick to the 53gr but I'm going to pick up some FGMM 77gr to try out as well. My main reasoning for liking the 53gr is that it should follow the BDC better than the heavier, slower 77gr will.
I've been running my Noveske 12.5 GPR since this past summer and have nothing but good things to say about it. It is a good balance between length, muzzle velocity and reliability.
The way I see it, if you are going to have a carbine length gas system it should be an SBR. Otherwise, run a mid-length gas system.
That's shooting really well for you. You'll have to bring your gun out and shoot with Pappabear.... A 12.5 suppressor long range fest.
Eurodriver
01-12-12, 09:48
That's shooting really well for you. You'll have to bring your gun out and shoot with Pappabear.... A 12.5 suppressor long range fest.
I would love to come out to AZ in a few months. I would even come now but I've never seen snow and don't want to risk dieing in a firey car crash due to black ice. :cool:
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