View Full Version : 300 BLK questions.
Bill Alexander
12-03-11, 10:54
I continue to be intrigued by this cartridge as I was by its predecessor the Whisper. I would like a little feed back on what people might like to see in ammunition. As I write this I have finished the testing on steel case Grendel and have an interest in doing steel case BLK (prototypes in hand). What sort of projectile and weights would people like to see if we proceed down this route. Obviously this would be an economy ammunition so FMJ is the starting point.
I'd like to see a plain FMJ that's comparable to what M193 is to .223/5.56mm. Something less expensive than what's currently available and doesn't contain any steel since some ranges don't allow any bullet that sticks to a magnet. It will be fine if it accuracy is around or under 2-3 MOA. Bullet weight around the 125gr range.
I continue to be intrigued by this cartridge as I was by its predecessor the Whisper. I would like a little feed back on what people might like to see in ammunition. As I write this I have finished the testing on steel case Grendel and have an interest in doing steel case BLK (prototypes in hand). What sort of projectile and weights would people like to see if we proceed down this route. Obviously this would be an economy ammunition so FMJ is the starting point.
Bill, you might get more productive feedback here: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/index.php
FWIW, there are 2 main missing pieces in the 300 BLK ammo world-
1. plinking ammo. FMJ, etc in the <$10/box range.
2. expanding subsonic bullets.
Bill,
That would be awesome if you made steel case happen.
A subsonic as low priced as possible would be good - 200 grains at the very least, but 210 is better and 220 better still - or else function won't be reliable due to less gas pressure.
Then practice ammo even lower cost than the Remington UMC. I am not sure what kind of price differential people would expect below the UMC to want to buy it - but I would think the street price would have to be $8.50 (at most) per box as the UMC will be at $10.50 (I predict) soon enough. Also the UMC has a particularly awesome bullet design, so the closer in price the steel cased ammo was, the more it would have to come close to matching the UMC bullet's features.
Everyone wants expanding subsonic, but it is hard to do in an affordable way. The cheapest bullets today are $1 each.
As a full time AJ student w/ a wife and 3 y/o I'd like to see steel case FMJ hit the shelfs. The less expensive the better as long as they are functional/reliable. Maybe something in the mid to low 100 grain supersonic family.
The prospect of low cost steel plinking ammo is exciting.
I'd suggest ball-type subsonic ammo initially. There will be/are some affordable options for supersonic already with the 147gr loads and the soon-to-be-released UMC stuff. Currently, I'm not aware of anyone making a 200gr or heavier subsonic load for cheap shooting. That's the weak spot in the market at this point.
If sales go well, and I don't see why they wouldn't, add a 115-125gr load to the line.
A steel cased plinking load thats under 10 bucks a box and I will buy a 300 BLK upper for sure.
Steel case would be a HUGE seller, if you can get it out for $6 a box or cheaper with a decent HP fragmenting bullet, I would buy by the case load, and sell all my AK47's. The market is also in need of good bonded bullets that expand at low velocities.
Steel case 300 would be awesome. It would kill all hesitance on my end to get a pair of uppers.
All of the signs are right for 300 BLK to be the 40 S&W of the AR world, compared to 5.56mm being like 9mm. We know that DPMS, Bushmaster, Remington, Savage, Kel-Tec, and Sig are on the verge of releasing weapons. S&W already has. The cheap ammo is the missing key. The UMC will go a long way to being close to $10 a box, but it still has premium features like the NATO-like hardness brass case, water proof primer, and long high-BC OTM bullet. There is a whole 'nother level of market that will want even cheaper ammo with even fewer features - such as a steel case and a non OTM cheaper FMJ bullet.
I think having 125 gr and 110 gr spitzer loads would be good. How about a 22 or smaller caliber saboted bullet that was affordable? Sure, it's performance would be nearly identical to the 5.56, but switching between the 300 BLK & the 5.56 with just a mag swap might be a good option. If the saboted rounds could be made economically enough, it could be used as a low recoil training round without having to buy another upper
Bill, you might get more productive feedback here: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/index.php
FWIW, there are 2 main missing pieces in the 300 BLK ammo world-
1. plinking ammo. FMJ, etc in the <$10/box range.
2. expanding subsonic bullets.
I'll second these comments.
There is a whole 'nother level of market that will want even cheaper ammo with even fewer features - such as a steel case and a non OTM cheaper FMJ bullet.
Here's what is missing right now. AAC/Remington/Barnes/others have produced really good premium rounds already or will be on the market very soon. If you could get an uber-cheap steel case blasting ammo - think Wolf in 300BLK - you would very quickly sell it all...
I do think that subsonic blasting ammo would be a hit, I would also submit that the exact projectile is NOT important, just the weight - the 'cool factor' of being able to sling subsonic rounds through a double stamp SBR/Suppressed unit will be one of the biggest draws for the caliber, outside of the obvious supersonic defensive loads that can be fired from the same setup.
Any old FMJ will do in that role, though I'm not aware of any cheap 30cal bullets in that weight range that aren't on the longer side.
For FMJ 110-125gr with a long ogive is what I would shoot.
I think the number of people with silencers is much smaller than the number of people who might want to shoot a larger caliber bullet out of an AR, plus subsonic has to be held to a tighter velocity spread that will compete with the "cheap, blasting ammo" part.
I would also submit that the exact projectile is NOT important
It is extremely important that the projectile be optimal for reliability. If an ammo maker does not know what this means, then they are two years behind Remington.
...plus subsonic has to be held to a tighter velocity spread that will compete with the "cheap, blasting ammo" part.
Good points.
I still think we're better off wanting FMJ-type ammo, regardless of bullet weight, rather than cheap hunting ammo or bullets designed to expand at rather low velocities. Any features above and beyond the basics of reliable and reasonably consistent will negatively affect the cheap part of the whole deal.
Maybe someone like Hornady can introduce a 300BLK "steel match" line at some point.
Maybe someone like Hornady can introduce a 300BLK "steel match" line at some point.
Hornday will never sell even steel cases ammo for less than the Remington UMC ammo due to either less efficient manufacture or higher profit margin.
For example, Remington 300 BLK primed brass is 25 cents each at Midway. Hornady unprimed brass is $1 each.
Hornday will never sell even steel cases ammo for less than the Remington UMC ammo due to either less efficient manufacture or higher profit margin.
For example, Remington 300 BLK primed brass is 25 cents each at Midway. Hornady unprimed brass is $1 each.
Probably true enough. I guess my point was let's try to get some good affordable practice ammo before we start wanting unusual speciatly ammo like sabots, bonded bullets and stuff like that.
WOLF's forte is cheap ammo that is "good enough" for making noise or ringing the 100yd gong at the local range. I don't need a fancy projectile for that.
Robb Jensen
12-04-11, 12:20
I just started shooting Hornady Steel Match 75gr .223 for 3gunning. Dealer cost on it is $.32 per round and comes in 50 round boxes.
It would be cool to see Hornady make a Steel Match version of .300 Whisper using a cheaper bullet.
I may build up a 3gun 18-20" upper (thinking Noveske bbl) for Major power factor 3gun rifle for a few big matches where shooting Major would benefit me.
Bill, you might get more productive feedback here: http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/index.php
FWIW, there are 2 main missing pieces in the 300 BLK ammo world-
1. plinking ammo. FMJ, etc in the <$10/box range.
2. expanding subsonic bullets.
I can agree with both of these. Personally I would love the equivalent of hornady steel match.
I just started shooting Hornady Steel Match 75gr .223 for 3gunning dealer cost on it is $.32 per round and comes in 50 round boxes.
It would be cool to see Hornady make a Steel Match version of .300 Whisper using a cheaper bullet.
Great minds think alike. I'm using the 55gr and I'm very pleased with it.
I talked to Kelly Neal not too long ago about Hornady's steel cased ammo. Kelly said it was something like 40% cheaper to manufacture than conventional brass cased ammo.
If Hornady can sell their 208gr AMAX load for $15 a box rather than $25, will that make a difference? I think that's still likely to be too expensive for most "blasting" applications.
Not trying to be disagreeable. A cheaper bullet will definitely have to go along with this...
$15 is a start, but then lowering the profit margin is what is needed to get it lower than that.
SomeOtherGuy
12-04-11, 15:29
Another vote for something in the 110-125gr range, FMJ or cheap other bullet style, steel cased. That would let me use a 300BLK for matches without worrying about the cases. I would only ever use it on paper or steel gongs so it doesn't need to be fancy or anything other than FMJ. I would prefer higher velocity and flatter trajectory over bullet weight or terminal effects, for the same reasons.
blasternank
12-04-11, 15:49
220 gr or something that would be fun to blast suppressed and subsonic.
I'd be happy with the cheapest possible ammo, even if it uses off the shelf components that aren't exactly perfect for the .300BLK, such as 147-150gr FMJ bullets meant for a .308
Maybe 7.62 bullets meant for the cheaper AK rounds like Wolf can be swaged down in size to work?
You really want a long bullet with an air pocket:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i196/fsk54/545ammo1.jpg
I would not be happy at all with an off the shelf 308 bullet. Sure, handloaders can use them - but for loading millions of rounds of ammo? It is super well worth it to do a custom bullet.
I think having 125 gr and 110 gr spitzer loads would be good.
How about a 22 or smaller caliber saboted bullet that was affordable?
Sure, it's performance would be nearly identical to the 5.56, but switching between the 300 BLK & the 5.56 with just a mag swap might be a good option. If the saboted rounds could be made economically enough, it could be used as a low recoil training round without having to buy another upper
Someone is reading my mind...
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