Recoil control...Push/Pull

[TN-popo]

I see the Push/Pull method taught for shotguns (as taught by Mr. Haught) ...and was wondering why it's never/rarely discussed for carbines as well.
I realize the 5.56 doesn't recoil much, but I'll try any technique that increases my speed and recoil control.

I'd like to hear more thoughts on this.
Thanks

[platoonDaddy]

Doesn't seem to be a popular subject, back in Aug I asked a question on push|pull and zero replies.

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=86683

[Gutshot John]

Not to say it wouldn't be effective, only that the technique lends itself more to the shotgun.

You have three general issues:

First as a recoil management technique there isn't really the need for a carbine. Recoil is already pretty light.

Second it doesn't lend itself to driving/moving the gun as quickly. When I'm shooting clays for instance, I rarely employ the technique as it slows me down.

Three in my experience it's a bit fatiguing to do over sustained range days typical of a carbine where you fire significantly more rounds. You might shoot 50-100 rounds of shotgun on a busy range day slightly more on a class. Carbine 300-500+ is more typical.

[Failure2Stop]

I know quite a few 3-gunners that "stretch the gun" when shooting rifle.
Personally, I find that I control recoil better with a more firm rearward pressure.

[Robb Jensen]

I use the stretching push-pull method when I'm standing still and shooting a lot of targets pretty close together. If I'm shooting and moving or shooting longer distance I have a more relaxed stance/grip on the gun.

Here's me shooting a fairly relaxed stance/grip on the rifle on multiple targets. I was shooting 77gr BH and using a KAC 3T comp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRTUzY1ZLXE&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[sboza]

I feel ignorant for asking this but I have almost no experience with competition shooting. I have not heard of push/pull with a rifle. Does push/pull = stretching = pulling in with strong hand and pushing with support? What are the benefits of doing this?

Originally, I was trained to pull in with strong hand and only support the weight of the gun with the underhand support grip. The last couple of years, I've adopted the thumb over grip and pulling in (with varying pressure) with strong and support hands. This took a while to get used to but made me a much better shooter.

Forgive my ignorance, I've just never heard of an isometric pressure concept for rifle.

[Raven Armament]

Yes, pull with trigger hand, push with forward hand.

Benefit is more control over your weapon during recoil as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4

Technique starts at 0:50.

[wes007]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Ive always found I control recoil much better when im pulling back on the handguard and pulling down on the pistol grip. That method does require a more aggressive stance though.

[platoonDaddy]

Yes, pull with trigger hand, push with forward hand.

Benefit is more control over your weapon during recoil as seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq74aiXn1b4

Technique starts at 0:50.

In the video, he is using a pump - so what happens to all the 'gained' control when he must pull|push the pump to eject|load new round? :confused:

There is no energy used to recycle the weapon, the only energy in the video is to control the shot. Would love to have seen him cycle the next round, to observe the control.

[Steve]

In the video, he is using a pump - so what happens to all the 'gained' control when he must pull|push the pump to eject|load new round? :confused:




very simple the energy used to control the gun is used to cycle the gun at a much faster rate as well because there is less recoil and muzzle climb and less time off the threat im sure Rob has a much better detailed answer on this but i find even with a my semi autos im able to drive and control the gun faster

[platoonDaddy]

very simple the energy used to control the gun is used to cycle the gun at a much faster rate as well because there is less recoil and muzzle climb and less time off the threat im sure Rob has a much better detailed answer on this but i find even with a my semi autos im able to drive and control the gun faster

For sure getting old, but in the video my aged eyes never caught the re-cycle of the weapon.

[comprido]

For long, offhand shots, you can 'stretch' the rifle and narrow your wobble zone. It's more pushing with forward hand than pulling on the pistol grip.

It only works for a few seconds, and then your wobble goes back to normal (or greater, but that may just be an illusion.)

Try it. It works.

[Raven Armament]

In the video, he is using a pump - so what happens to all the 'gained' control when he must pull|push the pump to eject|load new round? :confused:

There is no energy used to recycle the weapon, the only energy in the video is to control the shot. Would love to have seen him cycle the next round, to observe the control.
Not sure. I don't use that illustrated technique with a pump. I use a different technique that allows for a very fast reload.

I use the support hand to hold the weapon tight to my shoulder and my trigger hand solid (firm, but not shaking) grip on the gun. When the shot breaks, my hand on the foreend automatically slides the action rearward to eject the shell and I simply slide the hand back to chamber a new round. Pull the trigger and slide my support hand forward is all it takes. I've never short-stroked my 870 doing this.

[sboza]

I really didn't realize that there were so many variations regarding holding a rifle. One person said they pull down with their strong hand and a bunch of you apparently stretch the rifle. Are these competition related? Does anyone use this in the real world? Not being a smartass, really just curious if I've missed some trends.




Side note on how I grip (in a brief nutshell):

I've always only learned and taught one method to grip with strong hand: pulling into shoulder with enough pressure that you can hold up the gun without your support hand grip.

There is more variation with what folks do with their support hand but for the most part, the support hand is underhand and there is no significant rearward pressure applied. As I mentioned earlier, I have changed this grip to thumb over the top as that allows rearward pressure to be applied as the lever created by your elbow now pulls toward your shoulder rather than your midline (as with underhand grip). I don't lock out my support hand and as a matter of fact, place it roughly behind where the fsb would sit; I like that I can easily shove someone and the gun is less tiring to run.

[MegademiC]

Not sure. I don't use that illustrated technique with a pump. I use a different technique that allows for a very fast reload.

I use the support hand to hold the weapon tight to my shoulder and my trigger hand solid (firm, but not shaking) grip on the gun. When the shot breaks, my hand on the foreend automatically slides the action rearward to eject the shell and I simply slide the hand back to chamber a new round. Pull the trigger and slide my support hand forward is all it takes. I've never short-stroked my 870 doing this.

This is the method I use and found it to be the best for me, also.